@Dream Wizards of the Coast had this thing about "Realms Changing Events" happening fairly constantly, to keep people interested in adventuring there. Which was okay, I guess, but people were complaining that the very existence of people like Elminster, the Chosen, the Harpers and such were making their characters irrelevant- that they didn't have to do anything, because Elminster, or some other high-level good force would step forward to save the world. So, they literally decided to Nerf the World come 4e. Elminster went crazy (with other magic users consciousness sharing his brain), The Simbul *really* went crazy, and can only be restored to periods of Lucidity by draining the magic from magic items that were made before the whole Spellplague/Blue Fire thing. Parts of Faerun were destroyed Wholesale, and mingled with parts of another world called Abeir, making the name of the World Abeir-Toril (whereas, beforehand, Toril was merely a continent, I believe. Halruaa was destroyed (I believe. Remember, I don't play 4e, so some of this is hazy to me), and some Gods, like Mystra, were destroyed along with it. Szass Tam took over Thay, driving out and destroying all the other Red Wizards, leaving him as the only Big Cheese magician in charge. Manshoon is still alive, as of the latest Elminster book, "Bury Elminster Deep", and Elminster appears to have died, but is apparently faking it.
It seems that Mystra isn't truly dead and will be brought back, which will remake the Weave that underlay Faerunian magic. This may be the catalyst for the changeover to 5e, and the retconning of stuff back to ie style, but I'll believe it when I see it. Apparently, Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara are still there, but no adventures or novels have been set there, so nobody really knows what officially went on during 4e in those locations. This could be left for 5e, or they could just continue to ignore those locations. I am betting on the second being more likely.
4E sounds even more awful; just gonna put that out there.
I'll have to disagree. NE/LE and NG/CG do have a lot of overlap. And, the Elemental Chaos is perhaps my favorite change. Going to the Plane of Fire was dangerous enough, but in the Elemental Chaos you could be in a fiery region but also might randomly have a meteor made of acidic ice come hurdling toward you.
Besides, the Yugoloth change doesn't really do anything. Mezzodemons are still bug dudes with tridents that kill people for the highest bidder. They're just do it more chaotically, now, I guess?
i am stuck somewhere between 2E and 3E, by my own choice
4E did nothing but piss me off. i mean, i can understand multiverse changes and evolves, gods die etc and that is fine but changing a whole portions of established lore for no particular reason is simply being a dickhead.
it would be even fine if wotsc or whomever holds the rights to allow for developers to choose a ruleset or lore that would be most appropriate for their game or product, but NO- they HAVE to use the latest edition so latest edition is always enforced. i understand they have to promote the product but the way they started to handle the d&d made me lose all the respect for them.
ot: baatezu i guess. for no particular sexy reason, they just seem more interesting that pure chaos of tanarri.
i am stuck somewhere between 2E and 3E, by my own choice
4E did nothing but piss me off. i mean, i can understand multiverse changes and evolves, gods die etc and that is fine but changing a whole portions of established lore for no particular reason is simply being a dickhead.
it would be even fine if wotsc or whomever holds the rights to allow for developers to choose a ruleset or lore that would be most appropriate for their game or product, but NO- they HAVE to use the latest edition so latest edition is always enforced. i understand they have to promote the product but the way they started to handle the d&d made me lose all the respect for them.
ot: baatezu i guess. for no particular sexy reason, they just seem more interesting that pure chaos of tanarri.
They didn't so much change portions of establish lore as establish new lore. Think of Core 4E as an alternate universe.
Wow, I knew about the awful ruleset of 4e but I didn't realize quite how much they butchered the lore. Destroying the classic alignment system? Making demons elementals? Ending the (neverending) *blood war*?! If that much stupid stuff can be said just on the topic of fiends who knows what they've done to the rest of the realms!
i do look at it like an alternative universe, it's just the one i don't like very much. not that my opinion will influence anything. as for changes, i'm not very informed about 4e, but whole planes of existence are gone, some thing work completely different etc. it seems like they changed it, not just enhance it.
edit- i find changes to be too dramatical and arbitrary, and most of all, contrived because they lack good enough reasons. like i said, i do not think change is bad, even if it alters the face of the multiverse and pushes evolution forward. but if my knowledge is correct there is no explanation, for example- "well in face of this event, elemental planes joined to form elemental chaos." no sir. the sense that multiverse is truly vast is lost to me, it seems any half-assed god has the power to reshape the multiple planes of existence. but fine, i can live with any of those things, but spellplague? are people of FR able to live without some cataclismic event for more than 15 years? stamping one disaster on another makes the world feel ridiculous and contrieved IMO. if i'm mistaken, feel free to correct me. i'm sorry for offtopic posts, i will stop now. :P
Wow, I knew about the awful ruleset of 4e but I didn't realize quite how much they butchered the lore. Destroying the classic alignment system? Making demons elementals? Ending the (neverending) *blood war*?! If that much stupid stuff can be said just on the topic of fiends who knows what they've done to the rest of the realms!
They didn't destroy the classic alignment system, they just combined alignments that were too similar. Not that it really matters, because effects that are actually based on alignment are exceedingly rare in 4E.
Demons are elmentals with the demon keyword. Essentially, they are elemental evil. I think that's way cooler than just being bad guys from a bad place who do bad things.
As for ending the Blood War, that only happens in FR, as 4E Core doesn't have a name for demons and devils fighting. But, think about it, Asmodeus is a god now, and still the master of the Nine Hells. If anything can decide the Blood War is over, it would be him.
I have always prefered the Lawfull Evil (Baatezu) kind of evil. The one that make plans and are evil for a reason...
The chaotic kind of evil irritates me to no end.. the "And then I chopped up the nun and burned down the orphanage while I had a little orange hat on and where dancing while playing on my banjo and blowing soap bubbles trough the nose of a skull of an innocent cat!" is just irritating...
Yes.. you are evil.. but why??? Get a goal.. a target.. a reason.. else you are just irritating the logic part of my brain to no end
Well.. sure.. if you really are angry (and have a reason) on the whole world and just want to watch it burn.. I sort of can relate to that.. I mean.. horrible!!111!!
But the "im soo evil because I am evil!!" like alot of the cliche villains are.. then I simply dont see the point..
"you wanna kill the orphans.. why??" "because I can!!11!" irritating
"You wanna kill the orphans.. why??" "because I need their souls for my machine, and they taste great with sweet and sour sauce" "Great.. you got a reason.. let me help you hold down that pesky blind deaf girl!"
@Kharas "I want to kill the orphans because their voices when they are playing annoy me and they start at 8 in the morning!" You never ask them to quiet down or for their minders to keep them inside until 10, you just decide- they annoy you, they die. To me, that's CE.
@LadyRhian That also make alot more sense to me. It is a screwed reason, for me at least, but it is a reason. And I can respect that kind of evil in a villain.
When I say that CE irritates me, it is ofc not the well writen one. Its more the many cases of supposedly CE villains that just kill to kill.. no explanation, no nothing, just being evil for evils sake... That kind of villain is always something that irritate me when I find them in books or games.
Well Dark Elves are supposed to be a typical example of chaotic evil. From what I know their motives are most often personal ambition and pure sadism. However the ambition part always struck me as the domain of neutral evil (doing whatever it takes to get ahead).
The main point, I suppose, is that they're untrustworthy. That's what makes them chaotic.
The CE drow in fx R.A. Salvatores books are for sure evil, but they are evil with the goal of personal power. They dont care what they have to do to get that power, but they have a rational reason that make sense, at least to them self.
I really like the Drow that are described in the many forgotten realms books. Because they for the most part aint just "EVUL!!11!!" for the sake of it.. they are evil because they put their own goals above anything else and use any means to reach that goal.
But the kind of evil that go out of their way to fx betray allies, even though its counterproductive to their plans.. Im sure its just me being weird.. but that kind of evil have always broken my immension in the universe.. simply because its so stupid.
Evil being stupid is all fine when its the idiotic goblin chief with 2 braincells to rub together.. But when its a supposedly highly intelligent warlord or evil warlock, that go from one second having a master plan that can destroy whole nations, and then on the flip of a coin, the villain endanger his whole plan just for the sake of "being evil".. This kind of evil have ruined alot of games/books for me.
@Kharas Actually most of the drow in R.A. Salvatore work, or even in the FR are Neutral Evil, not Chaotic evil, Lolth is but not most drow
I'd have to agree, here. I'd go so far as to say the actual society of the drow is actually Lawful Evil. Granted, most of their laws consist of "don't do x or I'll kill you," but they do have a fairly rigid society with a well-defined hierarchy. The only ones with any real freedom to be Chaotic Evil without being flayed alive are matron mothers, their favored daughters, and their favored males. Everybody else has to tow the line or get a taste of a tentacle rod.
Definitely nothing lawful about drow. Their "rules" are extremely loose, the whole system is meant to be exploited by any kind of subterfuge you can think of. They have almost no sense of duty and only serve out of fear and respect of power. They don't honour alliances or friendships, at best they come secondary to advancement of power and status (this includes parental ties). As a society they are constantly set back by their disunity and are very prone to civil war and all sorts of lesser infighting.
If the dark elves could actually impose order on themselves they might even achieve that domination domination of underdark that they apparently covet and threaten the surface in a major way. As it is they're little more than underground pirates. Vicious yes, but mostly just raiders.
The biggest irony is that Lolth probably doesn't even truly care about the drow and whether they advance or fail as a society, all she needs is for them to be "chaotic", do all sorts of crazy shit and worship spiders in order to sustain her divinity. It also doesn't help that many of their most capable individuals have a tendency to turn good and escape to the surface killing a bunch of drow in the process.
There is no more blood war (at least in the Forgotten realms) Asmodeus ended it.
When Dweomerheart collapsed in the wake of Mystra's death, her servant Azuth fell into the Hells where Asmodeus, sensing his opportunity, devoured the lesser deity and became a god himself. He then ended the Blood War by forcing the Abyss underneath the Elemental Chaos.
That's actually a really interesting turn of events. The bloodwar was essentially a case of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Considering the two sides were too busy with eachother to cause a whole lot of trouble for anyone else. With the blood war over, what are the Baatezu and the rest of the nine hells going to do with their time? I'm unfamiliar with all the story lines/lore, however from what I do know, the various big-wigs of Baator are in a constant power struggle, so perhaps that's all they'll busy themselves with. Though it looks more likely we'll see some epic storyline having Baator spill into the upper planes... Bit of a Diablo rip-off, but still an entertaining storyline.
While I like Asmodeus, I don't like the other lords of hell, I Do enjoy the Mariliths, Balors and Succubi so that probably puts me in the Tanar'ri camp.
@LadyRhian Yes! You find out as much as possible about them. You judge their strenght and weakness and when they have helped you all they can and you have finished the part of the plan where they can be helpfull, you take them down if the added power they can give you is more than the force you will have to use to subdue them!
They will know that you used them 100 % and then betrayed them.. and that is gonna be much more painfull for them, and much more satisfying for you, than some retardet "evil for evils sake reason
They will know that you used them 100 % and then betrayed them.. and that is gonna be much more painfull for them, and much more satisfying for you, than some retardet "evil for evils sake reason
The Joker would be Chaotic Evil and he pretty much does things for shits and giggles. Especially Giggles.
Chaotic Evil creatures are not purposeless(and are not evil just for the sake of being evil). They do not abide "common" understandings of what evil should be. They have their own visions about things. We as humans are limited to not understand anything that seems unreasonable. My point is that there are "reasons" which are beyond our understanding(or at least of some of us).
Chaotic Evil creatures are not purposeless(and are not evil just for the sake of being evil). They do not abide "common" understandings of what evil should be. They have their own visions about things. We as humans are limited to not understand anything that seems unreasonable. My point is that there are "reasons" which are beyond our understanding(or at least of some of us).
I completely agree with you, and the above posts about evil, and the nature of it, is ofc only a personal view of it. There might be may reasons that I cant relate to, but when I encounter such a kind of evil in a book or game, it always breaks my immersion.. Simply because I cant relate to it and hence find it "simple".
I have no particular preference, but the point at which Tanar'ri and Baatezu collectively started to be known as demons and devils in the source material coincides almost perfectly with the beginning of the decline in the quality of d&d
Drow are only really chaotic evil in a "might makes right sense". Personally I would say their society leans more towards the more pragmatic neutral evil end of the spectrum. I think the "War of the Spider Queen" series is a great description of how their society works. Take Pharaun Mizzrym, probably my favorite drow of all time, he has a long standing friendship with Ryld Argith, but he has no qualms about abandoning him to die when it is convenient for him. This is how I see drow society, they have values just like all other societies, it's just that most of them value themselves over pretty much everything else.
Comments
It seems that Mystra isn't truly dead and will be brought back, which will remake the Weave that underlay Faerunian magic. This may be the catalyst for the changeover to 5e, and the retconning of stuff back to ie style, but I'll believe it when I see it. Apparently, Maztica, Kara-Tur and Zakhara are still there, but no adventures or novels have been set there, so nobody really knows what officially went on during 4e in those locations. This could be left for 5e, or they could just continue to ignore those locations. I am betting on the second being more likely.
Besides, the Yugoloth change doesn't really do anything. Mezzodemons are still bug dudes with tridents that kill people for the highest bidder. They're just do it more chaotically, now, I guess?
4E did nothing but piss me off. i mean, i can understand multiverse changes and evolves, gods die etc and that is fine but changing a whole portions of established lore for no particular reason is simply being a dickhead.
it would be even fine if wotsc or whomever holds the rights to allow for developers to choose a ruleset or lore that would be most appropriate for their game or product, but NO- they HAVE to use the latest edition so latest edition is always enforced. i understand they have to promote the product but the way they started to handle the d&d made me lose all the respect for them.
ot: baatezu i guess. for no particular sexy reason, they just seem more interesting that pure chaos of tanarri.
as for changes, i'm not very informed about 4e, but whole planes of existence are gone, some thing work completely different etc. it seems like they changed it, not just enhance it.
edit- i find changes to be too dramatical and arbitrary, and most of all, contrived because they lack good enough reasons. like i said, i do not think change is bad, even if it alters the face of the multiverse and pushes evolution forward. but if my knowledge is correct there is no explanation, for example- "well in face of this event, elemental planes joined to form elemental chaos." no sir.
the sense that multiverse is truly vast is lost to me, it seems any half-assed god has the power to reshape the multiple planes of existence.
but fine, i can live with any of those things, but spellplague? are people of FR able to live without some cataclismic event for more than 15 years? stamping one disaster on another makes the world feel ridiculous and contrieved IMO.
if i'm mistaken, feel free to correct me. i'm sorry for offtopic posts, i will stop now. :P
Demons are elmentals with the demon keyword. Essentially, they are elemental evil. I think that's way cooler than just being bad guys from a bad place who do bad things.
As for ending the Blood War, that only happens in FR, as 4E Core doesn't have a name for demons and devils fighting. But, think about it, Asmodeus is a god now, and still the master of the Nine Hells. If anything can decide the Blood War is over, it would be him.
The chaotic kind of evil irritates me to no end.. the "And then I chopped up the nun and burned down the orphanage while I had a little orange hat on and where dancing while playing on my banjo and blowing soap bubbles trough the nose of a skull of an innocent cat!" is just irritating...
Yes.. you are evil.. but why??? Get a goal.. a target.. a reason.. else you are just irritating the logic part of my brain to no end
Well.. sure.. if you really are angry (and have a reason) on the whole world and just want to watch it burn.. I sort of can relate to that.. I mean.. horrible!!111!!
But the "im soo evil because I am evil!!" like alot of the cliche villains are.. then I simply dont see the point..
"you wanna kill the orphans.. why??" "because I can!!11!" irritating
"You wanna kill the orphans.. why??" "because I need their souls for my machine, and they taste great with sweet and sour sauce" "Great.. you got a reason.. let me help you hold down that pesky blind deaf girl!"
When I say that CE irritates me, it is ofc not the well writen one. Its more the many cases of supposedly CE villains that just kill to kill.. no explanation, no nothing, just being evil for evils sake... That kind of villain is always something that irritate me when I find them in books or games.
The main point, I suppose, is that they're untrustworthy. That's what makes them chaotic.
I really like the Drow that are described in the many forgotten realms books. Because they for the most part aint just "EVUL!!11!!" for the sake of it.. they are evil because they put their own goals above anything else and use any means to reach that goal.
But the kind of evil that go out of their way to fx betray allies, even though its counterproductive to their plans.. Im sure its just me being weird.. but that kind of evil have always broken my immension in the universe.. simply because its so stupid.
Evil being stupid is all fine when its the idiotic goblin chief with 2 braincells to rub together.. But when its a supposedly highly intelligent warlord or evil warlock, that go from one second having a master plan that can destroy whole nations, and then on the flip of a coin, the villain endanger his whole plan just for the sake of "being evil".. This kind of evil have ruined alot of games/books for me.
If the dark elves could actually impose order on themselves they might even achieve that domination domination of underdark that they apparently covet and threaten the surface in a major way. As it is they're little more than underground pirates. Vicious yes, but mostly just raiders.
The biggest irony is that Lolth probably doesn't even truly care about the drow and whether they advance or fail as a society, all she needs is for them to be "chaotic", do all sorts of crazy shit and worship spiders in order to sustain her divinity. It also doesn't help that many of their most capable individuals have a tendency to turn good and escape to the surface killing a bunch of drow in the process.
Baatezu are a more competent, forward-thinking group. They're the type of evil that really makes you feel like they're accomplishing something.
That's actually a really interesting turn of events. The bloodwar was essentially a case of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Considering the two sides were too busy with eachother to cause a whole lot of trouble for anyone else. With the blood war over, what are the Baatezu and the rest of the nine hells going to do with their time? I'm unfamiliar with all the story lines/lore, however from what I do know, the various big-wigs of Baator are in a constant power struggle, so perhaps that's all they'll busy themselves with. Though it looks more likely we'll see some epic storyline having Baator spill into the upper planes... Bit of a Diablo rip-off, but still an entertaining storyline.
They will know that you used them 100 % and then betrayed them.. and that is gonna be much more painfull for them, and much more satisfying for you, than some retardet "evil for evils sake reason