@CrevsDaak: Originally I had a 0.5 higher score, but then I remember that there are a few strength enhancing equipments and bunch of potions.
@Quartz: Mirror Images is like the little bro of stoneskin. Sometime it's better than stoneskin because it stops area effect spells and help avoid traps.
@Blackraven: Invisibility grants first strike and sneaking capability. However, it's outclass by the more useful level 3 invisibility 10 radius.
If I don't have skeletons available I normally stick with the animal summoning spells. Chances are the Basilisks will petrify them and then attack the animal to kill it (which means valuable time for me to prepare some bombardment/attack with ranged weapons).
top tier - mirror image is good but overrated. It does not provide a reliable protection. You need other solutions in no reload and once i get stoneskin, i rarely use it. - web is BY FAR the best level 2 spell. web x2 + MMM + spiderspawn is enough for most soa fight. Try to find another level 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5...) spell doing that - invisbility is extraordinary in BGEE and early bg2 (scouting, choosing your fights, escaping,...)
mid tear - resist fear and knock are ok for solo play (far from 5/5. Unlocking is never necessary) - melf acid arrow is very overrated. Magic missile is better for general purpose and chromatic orb also does troll killing. - blur is ok for a FM. Not so much for a mage/sorc - glitterdust i have never used
I guess it depends on difficulty.. But I've had it happen quite frequently. Horror is only effective with a greater Malison thrown in the mix... By which time you have better rebuffs, like slow and emotion.
Horror is no more or less effective at working than against enemies than Emotion. Against enemies the only differences between the two spells are one causes panic (and it can be annoying to kill enemies under it) and the other causes sleep, as well as a relatively minor difference in duration (its minor because if you can't kill the enemy in the turn that Horror lasts then you've got bigger issues). You can argue horror is annoying because the enemy is running around but at the end of the day if they are running around they aren't attacking you. Also for Horror to be effective in a fight it only has to affect some enemies, not necessarily all of them.
As for Vocalize enemies rarely cast Silence. So its just not all that useful. Its not because the spell is bad its just very circumstantial.
To my mind, Nahal's Reckless Dweomer is like 6/5, it allows you to cast 10-14 more level 9 spells per days (and with a Improved Chaos Shield + High level enough the surges are not deadly), it also works as if you were under the effect of Improved Alacrity everytime you cast it. You can also cast level 8-9 spells before you're high level enough to cast them normally. Add to this the fact than you can NRD Sequencers / Contingencies spells with 0% Surge chance and you have (in my opinion) the best spell in the game.
I think Burning hands should be middle tier. Yeah the range is bad but it has some damage potential, if the enemy struck by the flames fails their saving throw they take 20-23 damage (very consistent and concentrated damage output!) at lvl 10, that's not bad for a lvl 1 spell. If an enemy dares to get too close, burn his eyebrows off with this! :-) It also is useful to kill trolls. Chromatic orb can also kill trolls but at some levels it does magic damage, and thus can't be used as finishing touch for a troll consistently at all levels.
Top Tiers: -Haste: 5/5 (drawback is fatigue) -Melf’s Minute Meteors: 5/5 (early access to +5 weapons) -Flame Arrow: 4.5/5 -Remove Magic: 4.5/5 -Skull Trap: 4.5/5 (high damage potential, but casting range is dangerously short) -Fireball: 4/5 (use the fire wand) -Slow: 4/5 (-4 save penalty, solo character should take this over haste)
Mid Tiers: -Dispel Magic: 3.5/5 (eclipsed by Remove Magic and Dispel Magic from other classes) -Invisibility 10 Radius: 3.5/5 (party first strike capability) -Vampiric Touch: 3.5/5 (use this on self or container for extra HP, duration lasts for 5 turns) -Dire Charm: 3/5 (humanoids only) -Hold Person: 3/5 (priest can get this as level 2 spell) -Lightning Bolt: 3/5 (unpredictable, use the lightning wand) -Minor Spell Deflection: 3/5 -Monster Summoning 1: 3/5 -Protection from Normal Missiles: 3/5 -Spell Trust: 3/5 -Ghost Armor: 2.5/5 (Kensage only before access to Spirit Armor)
Skull Trap's range increases by level IIRC, and it's animation does not show it's AoE as Fireball does. Protection from Fire and Protection from Cold are useful, but there's a bunch of items giving those resistances, so they somehow suck. Hold Undead is awesome, but it sucks for a lvl3 spell, use the Priest of Lathander's instead (that kit rocks btw). You've missed Wraithform, it's a good spell for F/Ms but outside that it's tricky to use.
Top tier : haste : very powerful (both for the extra attack and the extra mobility) and useful through the whole game. Definitely chose it over slow even if solo : the double haste mobility makes most fights very easy. It also doubles the damage output of most summons (skellies, mordy sword)
MMM : the king of early levels. the damage output is good skull trap : not so good at low level. At higher levels the good damage combined with its instant casting time with the robe of vecna makes it more damaging that ADHW under improve alacrity. Can be cast at point blank if you have the cloak of mirroring
Mid tier : remove magic : almost never use it. It fails too often. later on you have better spells available slow : not bad but save or else spells are too unpredictable flame arrow : if you play solo, it is mostly useless since you can use skull trap at point blank. wraithform : makes the begining of SOA extremely easy with a FM.
Crap tier : all the rest
Special notes : fireball is not bad per se. But skull trap is much better. No reason to memorize fireball
My choices as solo sorc for no reload trilogy : 1- MMM 2- haste 3- skull trap 4- remove magic (never used) 5- flame arrow (used only to suicide project image)
i'll just focus on top tier spells: -Haste: 3.5/5 ~disagreed~ there's improved haste making this spell obsolete; group effect is fairly irrelevant because not all characters benefit from haste (spellcasters especially); fatigue is a major pain -Melf’s Minute Meteors: 5/5 *agreed* -Flame Arrow: 4.5/5 *agreed* -Remove Magic: 4.5/5 *agreed* but dispel magic is almost equally good (4/5) - it's main purpose being to dispel negative effects from your characters -Skull Trap: 4.5/5 *agreed* -Fireball: 3.5/5 ~disagreed~ enemies' fire resistance: just use skull trap and horrid wilting when targeting is sensitive -Slow: 5/5 ~disagreed~ absolutely devastating, i'd take it if it was a lvl8 spell
I'd probably move dispel magic and invisibility 10' radius up to 4/5 (and highest tier). Invisibility'10 radius is garbage in ToB but I've found it pretty useful in SoA and BGEE (if you randomly find it that is).
Also due to the monster summoning wand I'd put monster summoning I in the lowest tier.
To my knowledge, spells cast by mages do not depend on difficulty. They can depend on mods however. To put it straight : all along a trilogy solo run with a sorc i have been made unable to cast spells by : - unholy word from demogorgon - insect swarm - miscast magic (?) from hive mothers.
Never ever, would have vocalize been helpful. I would never waste a spell slot (even less on a sorceror) to memorize vocalize.
Horror is exactly like all save or else spells : If the ennemy fails the save, you win. Otherwise you just wasted a round. For that matter, finger of death or paralysis have exactly the same effect. The only thing that makes difference is the bonus/penalty to saving throws. This is why i tend to avoid these spells as they are too random.
@bobveng : IMO, the key factor in haste is not the extra attack : it's the extra mobility. This opens huge tactical possibilities. A double hasted (boots + spell) character is almost impossible to kill. This requires micromanagement however and is best suited for small groups or even solo.
i fail to see how slow is that good : it's just another save or else spell. Web does a much better job if you are prepared to play with it (= with ranged weapons or paralysis- immune characters or with spider summons) : - can be stacked - saving throw required every round - if they are stuck, they are dead, as opposed to slow - it's level 2 VS level 3
Actually web is one of the ultimate crowd control spell and is only level 2, but that's another story.
@Aristillius : flame arrow does 20d6 fire damage on a single target. skull trap does 20d6 magic damage on a zone. Solo : you get the cloak of mirroring which makes you immune to the AOE of skull trap -> flame arrow is useless Group : Non-trash mobs are immune to fire. Trash mobs are dealt by fighters anyway -> not very useful
Skull trap is actually a big problem for all damage dealing spells : It is much better than all damaging spells below level 8 (fireball, flame arrow, delayed fireball, sunfire,...) due to better damage AND better damage type AND generally lower spell level.
i fail to see how slow is that good : it's just another save or else spell. Web does a much better job if you are prepared to play with it (= with ranged weapons or paralysis- immune characters or with spider summons) : - can be stacked - saving throw required every round - if they are stuck, they are dead, as opposed to slow - it's level 2 VS level 3
Actually web is one of the ultimate crowd control spell and is only level 2, but that's another story.
...Slow is party-friendly. >_>
Also "if they are stuck, they are dead, as opposed to slow" is a bogus claim. I'm a big fan of Web as well (who isn't?) but shooting down enemies who are caught in it *does* take time. Proclaiming them "dead" due to failing one saving throw versus Web is over-simplifying.
I guess i am playing too much in solo. Therefore, i tend not to consider the party friendly thing.
Really though, with no more than 2 spiders (or i guess 1 free action fighter + 1-2 ranged attacker), anything stuck in the web will die VERY quickly since the attacks auto-hit.
I'm not trying to cmplicate things here, but maybe it should also be taken into account whether one is playing a wizard or a bard. I never have my wizards cast dispel/remove magic. For a quick-levelling bard on the other hand these would be top-tier in my book.
I wasn't going to say anything, but I think Protection from Fire should be a mid-tier. I don't see at all how it could be in the bottom tier, "just fillers or spells that put the caster in danger."
It is very effective. You can argue that it can be replaced by items or some classes natural abilities, but it is effective and by no means harms the caster. Honestly Lightning Bolt belongs more in the bottom tier by that criteria, imo. But, then again, I never spend the necessary time to set up LB properly.
top tier - mirror image is good but overrated. It does not provide a reliable protection. You need other solutions in no reload and once i get stoneskin, i rarely use it. - web is BY FAR the best level 2 spell. web x2 + MMM + spiderspawn is enough for most soa fight. Try to find another level 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5...) spell doing that - invisbility is extraordinary in BGEE and early bg2 (scouting, choosing your fights, escaping,...)
mid tear - resist fear and knock are ok for solo play (far from 5/5. Unlocking is never necessary) - melf acid arrow is very overrated. Magic missile is better for general purpose and chromatic orb also does troll killing. - blur is ok for a FM. Not so much for a mage/sorc - glitterdust i have never used
crap tier : the rest
You are treating the list like it's a list for solo-runs. For people using a whole party web has some major issues, like entrapping all your people!
@ZaknafeinBaenre That ties in with what @Blackraven was saying. Everyone has their own playstyle and usage. The criteria, "most consistent and effective spells," does not account for Bard vs Sorcerer vs Mage or party vs solo. As long as a bias is indicated, I find it interesting and very worthwhile to hear how spell effectiveness changes from style to style.
For example, I have a feeling that my attitudes about Farsight, formed by solo sorcerer playthroughs (PI + summons), will differ greatly from one who uses a thief in a full party.
Dispel Magic is a great spell (especially for removing specific debuffs from party members) but I agree that 95% of the time I've got it on a cleric or druid rather than a mage.
Also, MMM is good in early SoA but stops being as useful once you get +5 weapons throughout the party. Arguably it gives your mage something to do once they've finished casting their spell for the round, but that's a marginal benefit rather than a killer app. I'd say 4/5.
I'd probably make Slow a 5/5 rather than 4/5 just because it's party friendly and has a hefty save penalty. With Greater Malison it's effective against groups from when you first get it all the way to TOB. It's one of the few spells I never need to alter or swap out.
Seriously? Protection from Fire is at the bottom of the tier list? Do you have any idea how common fire damage is? Total immunity to it rocks, especially in Firkraag's dungeon with all those guardian djinnis.
Sure you could get permanent immunity to it via items, but there are better ways to outfit your equipment slots. Protection from Fire lasts a long time at 1 turn/level, equal to Protection from Evil 10'. Its something I have my mages cast on melee characters after resting.
Haha, I guess meta knowledge has driven that score down for me. I have druids cast that since their level 2 sucks. I expect people's score differ by +-1 from my list.
Level 3 has tons of good spells. Too much competition. The score is relative too. A score of five in level 3 is different from a score of five in level 2.
Personal styles affect the scoring system. My mages are usually gear toward inflicting massive pain. Mages are my artillery, fighters are grunts and priests are supports.
Yes very interesting This topic reveals much of people's playstyles. For instance @bbear, your mages are damage dealers, the other party members just serve to protect them. My mages on the other hand are foremost debuffers/debilitators (breach is my most used spell I think of all spells), allowing my fighters and backstabbing thieves to do deal the damage. I can imagine even other playstyles, for example crowd controlling a lot (with webs, chaos etc), or fighter/mages and thief/mages buffing themselves in order to deal physical damage...
Of course one doesn't necessarily use a mage for only one style of play, but I can see people having different tendencies here.
Comments
@Quartz: Mirror Images is like the little bro of stoneskin. Sometime it's better than stoneskin because it stops area effect spells and help avoid traps.
@Blackraven: Invisibility grants first strike and sneaking capability. However, it's outclass by the more useful level 3 invisibility 10 radius.
- mirror image is good but overrated. It does not provide a reliable protection. You need other solutions in no reload and once i get stoneskin, i rarely use it.
- web is BY FAR the best level 2 spell. web x2 + MMM + spiderspawn is enough for most soa fight. Try to find another level 2 (or 3 or 4 or 5...) spell doing that
- invisbility is extraordinary in BGEE and early bg2 (scouting, choosing your fights, escaping,...)
mid tear
- resist fear and knock are ok for solo play (far from 5/5. Unlocking is never necessary)
- melf acid arrow is very overrated. Magic missile is better for general purpose and chromatic orb also does troll killing.
- blur is ok for a FM. Not so much for a mage/sorc
- glitterdust i have never used
crap tier : the rest
As for Vocalize enemies rarely cast Silence. So its just not all that useful. Its not because the spell is bad its just very circumstantial.
Top Tiers:
-Haste: 5/5 (drawback is fatigue)
-Melf’s Minute Meteors: 5/5 (early access to +5 weapons)
-Flame Arrow: 4.5/5
-Remove Magic: 4.5/5
-Skull Trap: 4.5/5 (high damage potential, but casting range is dangerously short)
-Fireball: 4/5 (use the fire wand)
-Slow: 4/5 (-4 save penalty, solo character should take this over haste)
Mid Tiers:
-Dispel Magic: 3.5/5 (eclipsed by Remove Magic and Dispel Magic from other classes)
-Invisibility 10 Radius: 3.5/5 (party first strike capability)
-Vampiric Touch: 3.5/5 (use this on self or container for extra HP, duration lasts for 5 turns)
-Dire Charm: 3/5 (humanoids only)
-Hold Person: 3/5 (priest can get this as level 2 spell)
-Lightning Bolt: 3/5 (unpredictable, use the lightning wand)
-Minor Spell Deflection: 3/5
-Monster Summoning 1: 3/5
-Protection from Normal Missiles: 3/5
-Spell Trust: 3/5
-Ghost Armor: 2.5/5 (Kensage only before access to Spirit Armor)
Low Tiers:
-Clairvoyance: 1.5/5 (outdoor only)
-Detect Illusion: 1.5/5
-Hold Undead: 1.5/5
-Protection from Cold: 1.5/5
-Protection from Fire: 1.5/5
-Non-Detection: 1/5
Protection from Fire and Protection from Cold are useful, but there's a bunch of items giving those resistances, so they somehow suck.
Hold Undead is awesome, but it sucks for a lvl3 spell, use the Priest of Lathander's instead (that kit rocks btw).
You've missed Wraithform, it's a good spell for F/Ms but outside that it's tricky to use.
haste : very powerful (both for the extra attack and the extra mobility) and useful through the whole game. Definitely chose it over slow even if solo : the double haste mobility makes most fights very easy. It also doubles the damage output of most summons (skellies, mordy sword)
MMM : the king of early levels. the damage output is good
skull trap : not so good at low level. At higher levels the good damage combined with its instant casting time with the robe of vecna makes it more damaging that ADHW under improve alacrity. Can be cast at point blank if you have the cloak of mirroring
Mid tier :
remove magic : almost never use it. It fails too often. later on you have better spells available
slow : not bad but save or else spells are too unpredictable
flame arrow : if you play solo, it is mostly useless since you can use skull trap at point blank.
wraithform : makes the begining of SOA extremely easy with a FM.
Crap tier : all the rest
Special notes :
fireball is not bad per se. But skull trap is much better. No reason to memorize fireball
My choices as solo sorc for no reload trilogy :
1- MMM
2- haste
3- skull trap
4- remove magic (never used)
5- flame arrow (used only to suicide project image)
-Haste: 3.5/5 ~disagreed~ there's improved haste making this spell obsolete; group effect is fairly irrelevant because not all characters benefit from haste (spellcasters especially); fatigue is a major pain
-Melf’s Minute Meteors: 5/5 *agreed*
-Flame Arrow: 4.5/5 *agreed*
-Remove Magic: 4.5/5 *agreed* but dispel magic is almost equally good (4/5) - it's main purpose being to dispel negative effects from your characters
-Skull Trap: 4.5/5 *agreed*
-Fireball: 3.5/5 ~disagreed~ enemies' fire resistance: just use skull trap and horrid wilting when targeting is sensitive
-Slow: 5/5 ~disagreed~ absolutely devastating, i'd take it if it was a lvl8 spell
Also due to the monster summoning wand I'd put monster summoning I in the lowest tier.
To put it straight : all along a trilogy solo run with a sorc i have been made unable to cast spells by :
- unholy word from demogorgon
- insect swarm
- miscast magic (?) from hive mothers.
Never ever, would have vocalize been helpful. I would never waste a spell slot (even less on a sorceror) to memorize vocalize.
Horror is exactly like all save or else spells : If the ennemy fails the save, you win. Otherwise you just wasted a round.
For that matter, finger of death or paralysis have exactly the same effect. The only thing that makes difference is the bonus/penalty to saving throws.
This is why i tend to avoid these spells as they are too random.
IMO, the key factor in haste is not the extra attack : it's the extra mobility. This opens huge tactical possibilities. A double hasted (boots + spell) character is almost impossible to kill. This requires micromanagement however and is best suited for small groups or even solo.
i fail to see how slow is that good : it's just another save or else spell.
Web does a much better job if you are prepared to play with it (= with ranged weapons or paralysis- immune characters or with spider summons) :
- can be stacked
- saving throw required every round
- if they are stuck, they are dead, as opposed to slow
- it's level 2 VS level 3
Actually web is one of the ultimate crowd control spell and is only level 2, but that's another story.
@Aristillius :
flame arrow does 20d6 fire damage on a single target. skull trap does 20d6 magic damage on a zone.
Solo : you get the cloak of mirroring which makes you immune to the AOE of skull trap -> flame arrow is useless
Group : Non-trash mobs are immune to fire. Trash mobs are dealt by fighters anyway -> not very useful
Skull trap is actually a big problem for all damage dealing spells : It is much better than all damaging spells below level 8 (fireball, flame arrow, delayed fireball, sunfire,...) due to better damage AND better damage type AND generally lower spell level.
Also "if they are stuck, they are dead, as opposed to slow" is a bogus claim. I'm a big fan of Web as well (who isn't?) but shooting down enemies who are caught in it *does* take time. Proclaiming them "dead" due to failing one saving throw versus Web is over-simplifying.
Really though, with no more than 2 spiders (or i guess 1 free action fighter + 1-2 ranged attacker), anything stuck in the web will die VERY quickly since the attacks auto-hit.
Top:
Haste
Melf's Minute Meteors
Skull Trap
Slow
Dispel Magic (bard only)
Remove Magic (bard only)
Mid:
Fireball
Invisibility 15' radius
Bottom:
all other spells
It is very effective. You can argue that it can be replaced by items or some classes natural abilities, but it is effective and by no means harms the caster. Honestly Lightning Bolt belongs more in the bottom tier by that criteria, imo. But, then again, I never spend the necessary time to set up LB properly.
For example, I have a feeling that my attitudes about Farsight, formed by solo sorcerer playthroughs (PI + summons), will differ greatly from one who uses a thief in a full party.
Also, MMM is good in early SoA but stops being as useful once you get +5 weapons throughout the party. Arguably it gives your mage something to do once they've finished casting their spell for the round, but that's a marginal benefit rather than a killer app. I'd say 4/5.
I'd probably make Slow a 5/5 rather than 4/5 just because it's party friendly and has a hefty save penalty. With Greater Malison it's effective against groups from when you first get it all the way to TOB. It's one of the few spells I never need to alter or swap out.
Sure you could get permanent immunity to it via items, but there are better ways to outfit your equipment slots. Protection from Fire lasts a long time at 1 turn/level, equal to Protection from Evil 10'. Its something I have my mages cast on melee characters after resting.
Level 3 has tons of good spells. Too much competition. The score is relative too. A score of five in level 3 is different from a score of five in level 2.
Personal styles affect the scoring system. My mages are usually gear toward inflicting massive pain. Mages are my artillery, fighters are grunts and priests are supports.
For instance @bbear, your mages are damage dealers, the other party members just serve to protect them. My mages on the other hand are foremost debuffers/debilitators (breach is my most used spell I think of all spells), allowing my fighters and backstabbing thieves to do deal the damage.
I can imagine even other playstyles, for example crowd controlling a lot (with webs, chaos etc), or fighter/mages and thief/mages buffing themselves in order to deal physical damage...
Of course one doesn't necessarily use a mage for only one style of play, but I can see people having different tendencies here.