Of course one doesn't necessarily use a mage for only one style of play, but I can see people having different tendencies here.
My mages are Fighter/Mage/Thieves/Clerics, they open locks, frontline much better than anyone else in the party, and heal themselves... solo runs :P still I tend to use mages at the frontline even with a party (Quartz can tell about that). If not a solo run, I use my mages for damage, disabling and debuffers, some spells just do two of those together.
Of course one doesn't necessarily use a mage for only one style of play, but I can see people having different tendencies here.
My mages are Fighter/Mage/Thieves/Clerics, they open locks, frontline much better than anyone else in the party, and heal themselves... solo runs :P still I tend to use mages at the frontline even with a party (Quartz can tell about that). If not a solo run, I use my mages for damage, disabling and debuffers, some spells just do two of those together.
@CrevsDaak, interesting. I suppose you're playing a Cleric/Mage (or Fighter/Cleric/Mage). But I'm aware that this is not the thread for an in-depth discussion of your character build.
@Blackraven Not exactly. When Crevs says "frontline" he means to tank ... a Mage playing carefully with Stoneskin and Fireshield can soak up hits, delivering damage with the shield, and take no damage themselves in the process.
I see, yet another way of playing a mage... Thanks for clarifying. On single class mages I use stoneskin not "offensively" (i.e. to allow them to tank), but rather defensively (to make sure they can cast without being interrupted, to protect against bakstabs etc). My next charname will have to be a wizard, probably my cleric/illusionist with 97 stats, so that I can experiment with different ways of playing her.
Top Tiers: -Greater Malison: 5/5 (area effect saves -4) -Stoneskin: 5/5 -Minor Sequencer: 4.5/5 (setup for some great combos, but levels 1-2 only) -Spider Spawn: 4.5/5 (combos with web and sword spiders have 5 attacks per round) -Emotion: 4/5 (area effect sleep but no save penalty)
Mid Tiers: -Improved Invisibility: 3.5/5 (does the target get the +4 save and -4 in enemy attack roll?) -Minor Globe of Invulnerability: 3.5/5 (duration is short at 1 round per level) -Secret Word: 3.5/5 (does not remove Globe of Invulnerability) -Spirit Armor: 3.5/5 (give this to anyone who cannot wear full plate) -Confusion: 3/5 (confused targets can still attack, but save -2 area effect) -Fireshield (Blue): 3/5 (works when you intend enemy to hit you, ice damage and protection) -Fireshield (Red): 3/5 (fire damage and protection) -Polymorph Self: 3/5 (mustard jelly) -Enchanted Weapon: 2.5/5 (BG1 and early party of SoA) -Monster Summoning II: 2.5/5
Low Tiers: -Farsight: 2/5 (stationary, but cannot be dispelled by True Sight) -Ice Storm: 2/5 (lasts for 4 rounds) -Teleport Field: 2/5 (too unpredictable for party) -Wizard Eye: 2/5 (mobile scout) -Contagion: 1.5/5 -Otiluke’s Resiliant Sphere: 1.5/5 (a desperate spell) -Polymorph Other: 1.5/5 -Remove Curse: 1/5
Some Minor Sequencer Combos: -2x Magic Missiles -Doom+Chromatic Orb (Cleric/Mage) -Doom+Blind (CM) -Mirror Images+Blur -Chant+Bless (CM) -2x Luck
Looks good. Might bump down emotion and bump up fireshields, with blue a bit higher than red. Also, polymorph other needs to be at least mid tier, it's just so much fun...
remove curse is necessary in SCS because clay golems give you wounds which can't be healed until the curse is removed. however you're still better off having your cleric memorise it.
ice storm is underrated imo. does pretty good damage and more enemies resist fire than cold (other than undead). only problem is it can freeze enemies and destroy loot. interrupts mages pretty well.
I'm pretty okay with this list. If I had to nitpick, I'd give Wizard Eye an extra point because you can use it with Projected Images to guide them around.
Idk if Teleport Field is as bad as being 2/5, it's not an all-purpose spell but it can screw really hard with enemies if you have the right party for it. I've used ranged-focused parties and together with Slow it ensures that melee opponents are completely useless as long as they're in it. Also I don't think it screws with casting either.
Probably not reliable enough to be anything higher than 3/5 but it has some effective uses. It's actually really good if you're soloing too. Globe of Invulnerability also makes you immune to it.
ice storm is underrated imo. does pretty good damage and more enemies resist fire than cold (other than undead). only problem is it can freeze enemies and destroy loot. interrupts mages pretty well.
Icestom is an okay spell. It's just that there are much better area over time spells like cloudkill, deathfog and incendiary clouds. The ice breaking loot is also a problem.
My personal opinion is that level 4 does not offer much exciting spells like level 3.
@bbear: Ice Storm does have the advantage that it doesn't qualify as a cloud spell and thus Zone of Sweet Air doesn't affect it (though I don't use cloud spells much out of principle so idk how often ZoSA is used by AI), whereas it would get rid of all the spells stated above. And iirc if you disable gore then it will not chunk enemies. I do agree that it's not the optimal spell for 4th level though.
I'd bump Stoneskin down to a 4, Improved Invisibility up to a 4 (as far as I'm aware you are getting the bonuses), Polymorph Self up to a 4, Fireshield (red) down to a 2, Teleport Field up to a 4, Wizard Eye to a 3, Enchanted Weapon down to a 1 (as far as I'm aware you can only get this as a sorcerer/random drop in BGEE which limits its usefulness), and Polymorph Other to a 3.5 (despite whats written online enemies don't get a bonus to their saving throw against it).
I was looking forwad to the level 4. As usual my list will be pretty brutal and centered toward solo (no-reload) play.
Top tier : Stoneskin : i think no one will debate on that one Improved invisibility : this one is completely broken : ennemy mages cannot target you. If you add spell immunity divination they cannot dispell it with true sight. Seriously, this one belongs to top tier without discussion. Spider spawn : the combo with web is completely OP.
Mid tier : minor sequencer : nice in theory but with a sorceror it's not so useful (if you take it as a 4th pick it comes too late). And i find i almost never use it. a nice combo is web x2. Greater malison : nice in theory but i find save or else spells to often be a waste of time. So i end up almost never using that spell. minor globe : very nice in BGEE (especially to deal with traps). Quite useless in BG2 The rest of your mid tear are not useless (especially AOE save or else) but just not my type
As a F/M i would pick : 2-3 stoneskin 1-2 improved invisibility
As a sorceror i pick : 1- stoneskin (always on) 2- spiderspawn (used a lot for end of BGEE and early SOA (until level 14)) 3- improved invisibility (used a lot early SOA) 4- minor sequencer (almost never used) 5- greater malison (almost never used)
Agreed with @elminster & @mumumomo that Improved Invisibility is probably a top-tier spell. There's a reason that SCS abuses it in tandem with SI:Divination. Being untargetable by single-target spells is a godsend, not to mention the combat bonuses it can net your fighters.
Just dealing with the spells in BGEE for now, for me the top tiered spells are:
Blindness Charm Person Sleep Glitterdust Horror Dire Charm Haste Hold Person Emotion: Hopelessness Confusion Greater Malison Polymorph Other Chaos
Because these all give me the biggest bang for my buck for my primary strategy: which is to disable enemy spellcasters specifically, and mobs in general. I shut down the enemies' offensive capabilities.
I included Haste of course.
Just with Blind, Sleep, Horror, and Charm Person you can handle many encounters with ease. The higher level analogues to these are Emotion: Hopelessness, Chaos, and Dire Charm (or Confusion).
And Hold Person is a staple for me throughout the game (although a Wand of Paralyzation does the same thing).
Ray of Enfeeblement looks like it should be a neat spell for any enemy warrior type wearing plate mail and equipped with a melee weapon; because by lowering Strength to 5 it should encumber them, and thereby basically root them to the spot they're standing at. But I'm always using other spells so I've never actually tested the premise. But then again, with a duration of 1 round/level of caster it provides a relatively short window within which to act upon the target (via other spells and ranged weapons).
@elminster I am curious about your thoughts on stoneskin? If there was one surefire consensus 5/5 on this level I thought stoneskin would be it for sure.
Wizard Eye/Farsight probably doesn't warrant a top tier due to its specific use, but for a mage that uses Project Image/Summons a lot, it is a very nice spell to have. It is probably my 2nd most used 4th level spell for solo sorcerer.
I would actually rate Emotion as 5/5 because it is basicly the sleep spell without a HD limit.
Ice Storm I feel is more mid tier, it's good damage to throw into a room to get enemies come to you after being weakened.
For Sequencer combos, double Chromatic Orb is still good, because they need to save twice to not have the extra effect of the spell and it's quite abit less likely to occur.
Stoneskin is without a doubt the most used spell of any level. It completely negates all physical damage, lasts longer than a rest period, and can be re-cast in the middle of combat due to its incredibly fast casting time. There is no reason a mage should ever be hit with physical damage because of this one spell.
Spider Spawn, improved invisibility, and the fireshields are my other top level 4 spells. I will admit I am guilty of under-using emotion and I'm probably missing out on a good spell, but all my level 4 spell slots are taken up by multiple stoneskins and improved invisibility/spider spawn.
Stoneskin is a great spell but it doesn't protect against any additional poison or elemental damage that an attack does (which disrupts your spellcasting anyways) and its cast on caster only. You can't protect summons or other party member with it. If it were a cast on target spell I'd give it a 5/5.
Comments
If not a solo run, I use my mages for damage, disabling and debuffers, some spells just do two of those together.
My next charname will have to be a wizard, probably my cleric/illusionist with 97 stats, so that I can experiment with different ways of playing her.
Top Tiers:
-Greater Malison: 5/5 (area effect saves -4)
-Stoneskin: 5/5
-Minor Sequencer: 4.5/5 (setup for some great combos, but levels 1-2 only)
-Spider Spawn: 4.5/5 (combos with web and sword spiders have 5 attacks per round)
-Emotion: 4/5 (area effect sleep but no save penalty)
Mid Tiers:
-Improved Invisibility: 3.5/5 (does the target get the +4 save and -4 in enemy attack roll?)
-Minor Globe of Invulnerability: 3.5/5 (duration is short at 1 round per level)
-Secret Word: 3.5/5 (does not remove Globe of Invulnerability)
-Spirit Armor: 3.5/5 (give this to anyone who cannot wear full plate)
-Confusion: 3/5 (confused targets can still attack, but save -2 area effect)
-Fireshield (Blue): 3/5 (works when you intend enemy to hit you, ice damage and protection)
-Fireshield (Red): 3/5 (fire damage and protection)
-Polymorph Self: 3/5 (mustard jelly)
-Enchanted Weapon: 2.5/5 (BG1 and early party of SoA)
-Monster Summoning II: 2.5/5
Low Tiers:
-Farsight: 2/5 (stationary, but cannot be dispelled by True Sight)
-Ice Storm: 2/5 (lasts for 4 rounds)
-Teleport Field: 2/5 (too unpredictable for party)
-Wizard Eye: 2/5 (mobile scout)
-Contagion: 1.5/5
-Otiluke’s Resiliant Sphere: 1.5/5 (a desperate spell)
-Polymorph Other: 1.5/5
-Remove Curse: 1/5
Some Minor Sequencer Combos:
-2x Magic Missiles
-Doom+Chromatic Orb (Cleric/Mage)
-Doom+Blind (CM)
-Mirror Images+Blur
-Chant+Bless (CM)
-2x Luck
ice storm is underrated imo. does pretty good damage and more enemies resist fire than cold (other than undead). only problem is it can freeze enemies and destroy loot. interrupts mages pretty well.
monster summoning 2 is pretty worthless
Probably not reliable enough to be anything higher than 3/5 but it has some effective uses. It's actually really good if you're soloing too. Globe of Invulnerability also makes you immune to it.
My personal opinion is that level 4 does not offer much exciting spells like level 3.
Top tier :
Stoneskin : i think no one will debate on that one
Improved invisibility : this one is completely broken : ennemy mages cannot target you.
If you add spell immunity divination they cannot dispell it with true sight.
Seriously, this one belongs to top tier without discussion.
Spider spawn : the combo with web is completely OP.
Mid tier :
minor sequencer : nice in theory but with a sorceror it's not so useful (if you take it as a 4th pick it comes too late). And i find i almost never use it. a nice combo is web x2.
Greater malison : nice in theory but i find save or else spells to often be a waste of time. So i end up almost never using that spell.
minor globe : very nice in BGEE (especially to deal with traps). Quite useless in BG2
The rest of your mid tear are not useless (especially AOE save or else) but just not my type
As a F/M i would pick :
2-3 stoneskin
1-2 improved invisibility
As a sorceror i pick :
1- stoneskin (always on)
2- spiderspawn (used a lot for end of BGEE and early SOA (until level 14))
3- improved invisibility (used a lot early SOA)
4- minor sequencer (almost never used)
5- greater malison (almost never used)
Blindness
Charm Person
Sleep
Glitterdust
Horror
Dire Charm
Haste
Hold Person
Emotion: Hopelessness
Confusion
Greater Malison
Polymorph Other
Chaos
Because these all give me the biggest bang for my buck for my primary strategy: which is to disable enemy spellcasters specifically, and mobs in general. I shut down the enemies' offensive capabilities.
I included Haste of course.
Just with Blind, Sleep, Horror, and Charm Person you can handle many encounters with ease. The higher level analogues to these are Emotion: Hopelessness, Chaos, and Dire Charm (or Confusion).
And Hold Person is a staple for me throughout the game (although a Wand of Paralyzation does the same thing).
Ray of Enfeeblement looks like it should be a neat spell for any enemy warrior type wearing plate mail and equipped with a melee weapon; because by lowering Strength to 5 it should encumber them, and thereby basically root them to the spot they're standing at. But I'm always using other spells so I've never actually tested the premise. But then again, with a duration of 1 round/level of caster it provides a relatively short window within which to act upon the target (via other spells and ranged weapons).
he isn't a legendary wizard for nothing you know
@Flashburn +1
Wizard Eye/Farsight probably doesn't warrant a top tier due to its specific use, but for a mage that uses Project Image/Summons a lot, it is a very nice spell to have. It is probably my 2nd most used 4th level spell for solo sorcerer.
Ice Storm I feel is more mid tier, it's good damage to throw into a room to get enemies come to you after being weakened.
For Sequencer combos, double Chromatic Orb is still good, because they need to save twice to not have the extra effect of the spell and it's quite abit less likely to occur.
They both finish ahead of shield anyway in my list.
As for 4th level, stoneskin is the best spell in the game bar none, and should have it's own special tier level.
Spider Spawn, improved invisibility, and the fireshields are my other top level 4 spells. I will admit I am guilty of under-using emotion and I'm probably missing out on a good spell, but all my level 4 spell slots are taken up by multiple stoneskins and improved invisibility/spider spawn.
@elminster why do you drop stoneskin?