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News?

MinscandBooMinscandBoo Member Posts: 77
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
Good day all... Haven't been to the forums in a while. Is there any "news" with Overhaul/Beamdog about what they are currently working on, and what's next? Nothing in the news section... Just curious as to what I can expect to play next and when. Thanks!
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  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Allegedly, they are working on an Android that will play Baldur's Gate.
    or
    Allegedly, they are working on an Android version of Baldur's Gate.

    I like the first idea better, but the second idea is probably more economically sound.
  • MinscandBooMinscandBoo Member Posts: 77
    neither really excite me... I think after all these years I have finally played my last walk-through(s) of the BG series. I think I have ran pretty much everything except for a CHARNAME with all sub 10's as ability scores.

    No rumors on PS:T or IWD series...?
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    There are rumors on IWDEE, but absolutely no official hint. I have a hunch it is not too unlikely though.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    IWDEE would need a LOT of "enhanced." Typically it isn't good business to follow-up a good product with a crappy one, and Icewind Dale was a long slog for me, one I did not particularly enjoy. Making IWD EE after making BG2EE would be, I think, economical suicide.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    I've heard a whisper not too long ago in some dark alley. The hoarse voice said to me that Trent Oster enslaved a professional armourer and forced him to forge Sarevok's pantaloons!

    ... Or was it his armour? Both things look the same to me, with their spikes and all that.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited March 2014
    Its why I think they should do IWD3. They've shown themselves to be good at making difficult (and varied) fights and the story isn't as important.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @ZaknafeinBaenre: Given that NPC Projects exist for both IWD and IWD2, I don't think it's accurate to say that IWD:EE couldn't have these things - it's just that, realistically speaking, Beamdog would probably still be under the same contractual restrictions that kept them from doing more with the BG:EE games.

    In fact, given those restrictions, the best option for them is probably "Planescape: Torment" - it's perhaps the only D&D RPG more renowned than BG, there's really no need to muck about with the story, and if they ever get their act together with regards to the technical side of things (the state of BG2:EE five months later is completely unacceptable), that might be a simpler project to complete.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    ZaknafeinBaenre said:

    We can agree to disagree, but there are certain facts that go into play here. IWD has, in comparison to BG and BG2, very little depth plot-wise and with character development. No joinable NPC's, no romances, no character interaction between parties, very little mystery, few sidequests and none with any substance.

    These are more preferences rather than 'Issues' with the game. While you are correct in that these factors make IWD Different from the BG franchise, they don't need to be "Fixed" as they weren't broken.

    As with NWN, a lot of people seem to hate on IWD series merely because it wasn't a direct and exact clone of BG. Sure it's the same engine (more or less) but it was targeted at those who wanted a Dungeon crawl without being encumbered with playing someone else's characters. Not everyone is a fan of being forced into only a static pool of joinable NPCs. And some dislike the fact that their party have personalities other than that which the player dictates. It's a play style choice.

    As you rightly point out, you can Play BG sans the NPCs. people do. People Want to do that. Those are the target market that IWD was created to please most. In that, i think they did a good job. Not that BG style is bad, merely that this was created to scratch a slightly different itch.

    And I think that an EE version would be quite reasonable provided that they Enhanced the game to it's strength in stead of trying to fit it into BG mold. it isn't intended to be BG. it is intended to be it's own thing.

    all in my personal opinion.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @the_spyder: This is an old argument, but for accuracy's sake - no, people don't hate IWD (or NWN for that matter) just because it's not BG. Let's not forget that "Hordes of the Underdark" and "Mask of the Betrayer" are well-remembered and popular campaigns.

    And why? Because of the characters. Your companions for most of HotU are a drow assassin, a tiefling warrior and a kobold bard, in a time when you couldn't play those races yourself. You could influence Aribeth to be a paladin or a blackguard. And the enemies? The Valsharess isn't particularly engaging, but Mephistopheles gets you invested immediately: he tricks you, he uses you, and when you face him again he tries to steal your party members right out from under your nose. MotB pits you against Myrkul himself, with a diverse array of NPCs you just don't see on a regular basis (Okku and One of Many being particularly noteworthy examples).

    IWD doesn't have any of that. The player doesn't have any personal stake in fighting Belhifet; Hrothgar isn't around long enough for you to care about him; there's no anchor to the story at all. Hell, even Diablo II made at least a token effort to engage the players in the narrative through Marius' tale, the continuing appearances of Deckard Cain, and the use of the first game's PCs. IWD doesn't even offer that.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited March 2014
    @shawne - Read @ZaknafeinBaenre post. He calls out specifically the lack of NPC character development and relationships as the reason he doesn't like the game. Maybe there were other reasons, but Yes. That is exactly the reason.

    It is more accurate to say that some people don't like IWD and NWN because they had expectations set by BG series that weren't met. This is a perfectly valid argument and no reason to be negative about it. But the simple fact is that the development of these two projects had their own goals and target markets. This doesn't make them 'Bad' games in themselves as some people would have it, merely different. That's the sum total of what i was saying.

    Calling out the lack of NPC development as @ZaknafeinBaenre does as something that needs to be enhanced because it was broken in these games is not an accurate portrayal of the situation. There are those of us that got engaged by the story line and who enjoyed the game just fine without joinable NPCs.

    But you are right in that it's an old argument and no need to rehash it all here.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    edited March 2014
    My point is, in ALL the major ways that they "enhanced" BG and BGII:EE, they cannot do it with IWD, the groundwork is not there to build upon like it was in BG.

    Don't get me wrong. I've played IWD and IWD2, and I enjoyed them both, but they are what they are, and I don't see the ways BG was "enhanced" to be any benefit to either of those titles.

    Edit: just to be clear, I'm not "calling it out as broken." It just is. And I don't see how you build on it in a meaningful way that will justify calling any new release "enhanced."
    the_spyder said:

    @shawne - Read @ZaknafeinBaenre post. He calls out specifically the lack of NPC character development and relationships as the reason he doesn't like the game. Calling out the lack of NPC development as @ZaknafeinBaenre does as something that needs to be enhanced because it was broken

    Spyder please don't misquote me. Nowhere will you see me say I didn't like the game, nor did I ever call it broken.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    edited March 2014
    elminster said:

    Its why I think they should do IWD3. They've shown themselves to be good at making difficult (and varied) fights and the story isn't as important.

    Yeah, I can agree! Szass Tam was a good fight, I killed him without any type of cheese, but he killed me in the first attempt (to correct myself: he killed Neera with a Comet spell before he got a 9 APR Critical Strike over him, I thought the quest could not finish properly if Neera died so I reloaded).
    plus, Hexxat's dungeons are nice! I really think that a IWD3 form OH will be a success.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    edited March 2014
    shawne said:

    In fact, given those restrictions, the best option for them is probably "Planescape: Torment" - it's perhaps the only D&D RPG more renowned than BG, there's really no need to muck about with the story, and if they ever get their act together with regards to the technical side of things (the state of BG2:EE five months later is completely unacceptable), that might be a simpler project to complete.

    Fully agree with the state of BG2EE... but in any case, it's definetely not the safest option: if they mess up IWD people will grumble but move on. If they mess up PST, the forum's flamewars will be a nuclear holocaust, they will be drawn, quartered, flayed, burnt at the stake, their heads added to the pillar of skulls, their children sent to slavework in the Modron maze and *then* Vhailor will begin to dispense justice and the fun really starts...

    Better stick to IWD...
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited March 2014
    Also, I see the point has been brought up that Icewind Dale lacks motivation. I agree. This is probably IWD's biggest downfall.

    On the other hand, it personally never bothered me because to me:
    - Motivation in Baldur's Gate 1: Exploring the open-world maps. This is fun. The way you go about learning about your Bhaalspawn stuff is really bizarre and tip-toes around it in an unsatisfying and strange fashion. I mean it even says when you get to Nashkel, "How the iron shortage and the troubles facing the Sword Coast could possible relate to you, you have no idea." Yeah seriously, breaking down the fourth wall a bit there? This is basically the DM saying "hey you should go do this because this is how I set up the game, it'll make sense soon, don't worry."
    - Motivation in Baldur's Gate II: I have none. Zero. I hate Imoen, and just when Irenicus starts to seem interesting, it's revealed that he's actually a vengeance-mongering little five-year-old girl throwing a temper tantrum.
    - Motivation in Icewind Dale: Once again, there is very little. You are told "yeah so you're in this situation whether you like it or not because the winter is so bad you can't go anywhere" alright, that's good that it's explained but there really isn't much of a driving force. Especially early on when you are going after tiny clues that yield very little reward. I mean the Vale of Shadows especially -- next to nothing is accomplished there at all and it's the first quest. Also, I was fairly interested in the development of Poquelin (he is mentioned many times before you meet him, there's that inference-driven story-telling again), but then all of a sudden "ho shit he's a demon!" ...wat. ok.

    I love all these games but the motivation is mediocre in all of them.
  • SkaffenSkaffen Member Posts: 709
    edited March 2014
    But they are giving us what we want! :) look at the number of "best built, offhand speed weapons, spell ranking etc" type discussions vs. roleplaying ones. How often do people restart to try a new build? Yup, many of want a tactical combat with roleplaying elements type game if we are honest about it.

    btw., I think the story and development in IWD are not that bad - even my wife, many many years after I played it still remembers some elements and key events of the game when I recently bought the bundke at GOG! ("That's the one wuth the tree, no?")

    And yes, IWD was nothing compared to PST where she actively encouraged me to play more because she wanted to see how the story progresses. Some of the dialogues are still in use in our household even though she never played a computer game (other than farmville...) in her life. And while the story is infinetely better than BG1/2 the replayability is lower because it lacks the tactical depth of BG2.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    OMG, how many times must I say that I was not bashing IWD !?!? Is there anything false about what I said about IWD? No. Did I ever say any of these things make it a bad game?? No I didn't. Quite the opposite. My point was that there is no room to "enhance" it because there are too few aspects available for enhancement. Frick. Don't get all up in arms over nothing people
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    ZaknafeinBaenre said:

    My point is, in ALL the major ways that they "enhanced" BG and BGII:EE, they cannot do it with IWD, the groundwork is not there to build upon like it was in BG.

    Don't get me wrong. I've played IWD and IWD2, and I enjoyed them both, but they are what they are, and I don't see the ways BG was "enhanced" to be any benefit to either of those titles.

    Edit: just to be clear, I'm not "calling it out as broken." It just is. And I don't see how you build on it in a meaningful way that will justify calling any new release "enhanced."

    the_spyder said:

    @shawne - Read @ZaknafeinBaenre post. He calls out specifically the lack of NPC character development and relationships as the reason he doesn't like the game. Calling out the lack of NPC development as @ZaknafeinBaenre does as something that needs to be enhanced because it was broken

    Spyder please don't misquote me. Nowhere will you see me say I didn't like the game, nor did I ever call it broken.

    My intent was not to offend or to miss-quote. However, you clearly have stated that the lack of NPC and romance makes the game inferior to BG. Quite simply, I don't see this as any different than what I said. You have also stated that any Enhancement would be lacking without these components. Again, did you mean something different? Because that's the way it came across. Again, no offense was intended.

    And I do very much disagree. I think that with the IWD series there is almost infinitely more enhancement possibilities simply BECAUSE of the lack of NPCs to trod on, and therefore potentially fewer license stumbling blocks to deal with. The inclusion of new areas, Ala some of the new side quests that were put into BG, would add content. The updating and expanding of classes and sub-classes would likewise be benefited from EE, again as we saw in BG:EE. Either or both would be well within the realm of improvements and would enhance the game. More content means more fun.

    And then there is the expansions that exist. Any effort that incorporated them without the need for MOD would also be an enhancement. Sure there are logistics, and some might not pay if they can already get the stuff for free, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market. Add that to additional content and class choices and you have a very nice EE package.

    But again, I am not trying to argue with anyone. I merely wish to point out that there is ground here and I for one would pay for expansions. Maybe I'm the only one. But then I only speak for myself.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @Quartz: Even in the first game, the story is still something that is happening to your protagonist. You can play solo, or with 6 custom NPCs, but one of those characters is still a Bhaalspawn and is therefore the focal point of the plot.

    In IWD, your characters are the ones fighting Belhifet/the twins, but for no particular reason other than "they just happened to be there". It doesn't even matter if the party is good, evil, neutral or some bizarre combination of all three, because the games don't provide any justifications for getting involved in the story beyond the fact that you can't actually leave the area.
  • TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    @Quartz: Interesting point. I actually rather enjoy the freedom of character development with characters that lack a background. Granted I liked IWD2 better than IWD for which I never completed other than HoW, but I actually liked the fact that I could make whatever PCs I wanted, without having to base it off anything. I do however agree that the lack of interaction between player characters and the world is something that makes the games feel extremely stale too.

    One major problem I felt existed was the way the story drags you around with no option to go backwards. When you leave somewhere, you do it for good. None of the BG games, not even ToB, pulled you from place to place without the option to go back. The closest any of the games had to this was SoA
    Brynnlaw, Spellhold, Underdark

    and even then in Chapter 6 you return to a familiar setting. The result is that it's hard to get attached to any part of the IWD world simply because it feels like you're being rushed from place to place.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    shawne said:

    @Quartz: Even in the first game, the story is still something that is happening to your protagonist. You can play solo, or with 6 custom NPCs, but one of those characters is still a Bhaalspawn and is therefore the focal point of the plot.

    In IWD, your characters are the ones fighting Belhifet/the twins, but for no particular reason other than "they just happened to be there". It doesn't even matter if the party is good, evil, neutral or some bizarre combination of all three, because the games don't provide any justifications for getting involved in the story beyond the fact that you can't actually leave the area.

    @shawne And here we are back to things being a matter of personal taste. I find it more exciting when a group of common adventurers end up in a circumstance wherein they are pushed to rise to the top, compared to the terribly overdone "because of your bloodline, you are special and destined to be great yada yada."

    That said, the alignment point is a good one. IWD assumes you are playing a good or neutral party. There really is no place at all for evil parties -- maybe a somewhat restrained Lawful or Neutral Evil character (a la Viconia, Edwin) but certainly no Chaotic Evils.

    @Artemius_I‌ I must admit I have never played Icewind Dale 2 -- I have it installed, so I will some day, I just haven't yet. Or Heart of Winter expansion for that matter. I do not recall being unable to back track in Icewind Dale 1, with the exception, of course, of Easthaven.
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    This does not need to be a topic/debate of what's better, BG or IWD. The question was, is IWD the next project to get an "Enhanced Edition?"

    My answer is, no. My reasons are, the ways in which BG1 and 2 were enhanced, a la additional NPC's and sidequests, are not available as an option. The game is based on a "mercenary band" arriving at Easthaven. It has no room for picking up NPC's along the way. This removes the prime tool used to enhance BG1 and 2.

    Any negative connotation toward IWD perceived by my reasoning is just that, perception. Not reality. It is not intended to disparage IWD in any way.

    I never "clearly stated" that the lack of romances or playable NPC's make IWD inferior. I only said it makes it un-enhanceable. I stand by that, and I have YET to see any good reasoning that refutes it. All I see here is a bunch of "IWD is NOT a bad game!!" comments, which are completely irrelevant
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    Yea, I am saying that an Enhanced Edition of IWD would be a crappy product. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying.

    Not that the original IWD was crappy, but that attempting to release an Enhanced Edition would NOT go over well at all.


    It is a hatchet job, and a poorly done one that misses context and doesn't capture the flavor of anything.

    My last post said what I mean. I will leave it at that.
  • Wandering_MinstrelWandering_Minstrel Member Posts: 197
    I personally would like to see an IWDEE. Why? I like how beamdog made BG widescreen as opposed to the mods that have been out there. I like the zoom in / out feature in the BGEE. I would like to see kits in IWD (I say keep the default bard and druid the way they are in IWD, I like them better that way than in BG). I do not think IWD needs any NPCs, that is what various mods can be used for if people feel they need them. Who says there is no romance in IWD? You can do what I did at one point. I would make three males and three females and they could be romancing each other (in your head). Another thing I would do is make them all male and pretend they are visiting small towns between two areas, visiting brothels or whatever... Use your imagination...
  • MacHurtoMacHurto Member Posts: 731
    I would rather see a new game with a new story (related or not to BG). I finished both IWD and IWD2 but I never found them as interesting as The BG series. Would not buy a EE version
  • ZaknafeinBaenreZaknafeinBaenre Member Posts: 349
    @the_spyder‌ On a side note, as an attorney, I must say, there are few I have witnessed that are as skilled at the true art of debate as you are, and I say this appreciatively.

    You have the nuanced ability to put an opponent into a position that they never actually took, a position less easily defensible, and then argue against THAT position, instead of the position they wanted to be in. You do it so well, that many would not even know it was being done, and would try to debate you from this new position, instead of standing their ground and maintaining the position they originally took. Maneuvering an opponent in such a manner is the highest form of politicking, and you do it well, whether you intend to or not. My suspicion is that you do not intend to, and you may not even realize you have this skill. With a little training and refinement, and with the embracement of the skill I clearly see you possess, you would make an incredibly formidable attorney, negotiator, or politician.

    You won't get away with it on me, however. I can perform this skill in ways you could only dream :)
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