I completely agree. We have tried to simulate sorcerer casting, but have been unsuccessful. Unless Camdawg or Avenger says otherwise, this seems to be impossible. It might be possible to allow them to gain unique spells, but I am not sure if it is possible to prevent them from learning spells from wizard scrolls. But, testing it is on the list
Have you tried making the bard a sorcerer kit instead? It would use the wrong exp per level, but it would have the sorcerer casting. It would just need buttons for pick pocket and bard song to replace two of the quick spell buttons. I have no idea if any of that would work, of course. Just a thought. I've tried using EE Keeper to add bard songs to sorcerers, but I can't figure out how to add the song button.
As a side note, I found one tiny problem with the Armored Casting. It does not appear to let Mage multiclasses use shields and cast spells, even though it's possible without the mod. I tested it with both a pregenerated character and a freshly made character in the new game menu, using a fighter/mage/cleric. Now my poor little sling user is shieldless darn cleric ethos...
I completely agree. We have tried to simulate sorcerer casting, but have been unsuccessful. Unless Camdawg or Avenger says otherwise, this seems to be impossible. It might be possible to allow them to gain unique spells, but I am not sure if it is possible to prevent them from learning spells from wizard scrolls. But, testing it is on the list
Have you tried making the bard a sorcerer kit instead? It would use the wrong exp per level, but it would have the sorcerer casting. It would just need buttons for pick pocket and bard song to replace two of the quick spell buttons. I have no idea if any of that would work, of course. Just a thought. I've tried using EE Keeper to add bard songs to sorcerers, but I can't figure out how to add the song button.
Ahhh, that's another engine limitation. We could certainly make it a sorcerer kit, buy we couldn't give it bard song, or pick pocket. We could give any kit set traps, and through some wonkery, hide, and >maybe detect traps, but not pick pockets or bard song (I have made requests, but that is all I can do).
@subtledoctor is right about making the sing more useful. There is a lot of potential in the change bard song opcode
I don't really know why the bard was changed to cast like a sorcerer in 3e. It may be because both the bard and sorcerer are Charisma based casters in 3e, rather than Intelligence based like a wizard (2e mage) or Wisdom based like a cleric. Bards are also allowed to become dragon disciples in 3e. They use magical power they are born with, shape it with music, and fling the spells. All 3e bard spells require a verbal component, even if the spell doesn't normally have it, and bards can never use silent spells. 3e bards also have access to several divine spells, predominantly the cure x wounds set and a number of other healing or party buffing spells. Their versatility in 3e is quite amazing.
Their downside in 3e is that, while they can do nearly anything, they never excel at anything. They have less skill than a rogue, less physical combat ability than a rogue, and only cast spells up to 6th level (the normal cap for clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers is 9th level spells). Their spell selection list, while it does have some nice divine spells added, is also considerably smaller than a sorcerer. Bards do not get fireball, for example. It's all much more illusion and sound focused. The only thing a bard does better than anyone else is diplomancy (which includes bardic music). Nobody persuades NPCs for shop discounts quite like a bard!
Ugh. Honestly I don't like a lot of those changes. Sounds like they took a class that was perceived as underpowered and tried to boost it in all sorts of odd ways. The 2E bard was fine in the context of a PnP game. Charisma doesn't need to boost spellcasting - it already boosts role-playing! Pick Pockets really meant Sleight of Hand, and could be amazingly fun when used by a creative player. Healing spells? Is there any stated explanation for that, at all? (Where's the emoji for eye-rolling? )
I also don't really get how Charisma would have any effect on a sorcerer's magical ability.
Well, they wanted to boost Bards to be one of the best supporting classes and so they focus on enchantment, illusion, and cure wounds spell lines. As for Charisma it's supposed to signify not only personality and likeability but also their force of spirit. Paladins Smite Evil scales off of Charisma and in Pathfinder they changed it so Paladin's main casting statistic is also Charisma. It's like the strength of their soul I suppose.
I think the bard is to be seen as a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric in one class, hence the jack of all trades. Makes a great 5th party member. They can wear light armor and cast, and with a high dex they can make a back-up frontliner. They can stand in the back and toss out debuff and buff spells as well as crowd control stuff with the wizard (As well as some damage spells like Sound Burst). They can hide and move silently as well as pick pocket like a rogue. Finally they can make a decent healer but don't have access to restoration spells I believe, just spells that cure hit points.
Then if not doing any of those things they can use one of their many bardic songs to increase skill bonuses, combat abilities, or debuff enemies.
I enjoy both the 2e Bard (Well, BG/IWD Bard as I have never played a PnP game of 2e) and the 3e/Pathfinder Bard. They both seem to fill the same roll just with minor changes. Bards are most certainly one of my favorite classes and with the Dirge Bard (Song & Silence), Dirgesinger (3e), and Dirge Bard Archetype (Pathfinder) I can play a Necromancer Bard n_n. I do prefer though that they scale with Charisma as I imagine Bards as the charming type.
Edit: Oh, they can't cast with bardic songs up but can fight in melee (or with a bow) as long as their skill is singing or some oratory thing. I like to give my Bard's performance in Acting and Oratory so they can make heroic speeches and monolagues during the fight and that buffs up their friends.
I see a bard focusing on charm, illusion and sound. Cure, not so much.
Crazy idea: in the faiths of faerun thread, I remember mortaus(sp) talking about a "song mage" kit whose spells altered the bard song. Maybe this can be a basis for the whole class (?) Would be unique, and would differentiate it from any other class
All of this applies to Icewind Dale. I haven't tried the mod in the BG games yet.
Possible bug: I made a Neutral Good Oracle, and it allowed me to make him into an Oracle of Lore, which is supposed to be restricted to LN, TN, and CN according to the pdf.
edit 1: It also seems to be calling him an Oracle of Life on the character record, but he clearly has the stats of an Oracle of Lore (faster casting, more casting, non-instant heals, more spells known).
edit 3: Using EE Keeper, I noticed that there is no Oracle of Lore kit, but there are two Oracle of Life kits. It looks like Lore just got the wrong name, which may explain why I could select it on a NG Oracle.
edit 2: second possible bug: I made a CG Oracle, and turned him into an Oracle of Battle. He did not gain any increase to his hp, but his character record did change to say his class bonus per level had increased.
edit 4: third possible bug: I'm just finding all sorts of this this morning. With the Oracles, their bonus spells known do not appear to actually be bonuses. A level 1 Oracle of Life only gets Cure Light Wounds plus one other spell, rather than two spells with Cure as a bonus.
I tried to fix the third bug in EE Keeper by changing the Spell Level variable in the Wizard Spell Slots Modifier effect. By excluding the levels of their bonus spells, they should get the spells as an actual bonus rather than a forced spell choice. See attached. It didn't work, sadly
I do, I have BG2 Tweaks from G3 (which is IWDEE compatible). I'll go through the "setup" menu again and list off everything I turned on from it. I know I'm using the P&P spell progression lists, so that could certainly be interfering.
Stores sell higher stacks of items Remove experience point cap Multi-class Grandmastery Un-Nerfed Thac0 table Un-Nerfed Sorcerer spell progression table P&P Mage, Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell progression tables Druid uses Cleric exp progression Remove Summoning cap for regular summons All races allowed all multiclass options, including humans All races allowed to be any single class All races allowed to dual-class All races allowed to use any kit 100% learn spells and no maximum cap Bottomless bags of holding Remove fatigue from Restoration spells Unlimited Ammo stacking Unlimited Gem and Jewelry stacking Unlimited Potion stacking Unlimited Scroll stacking
I'm going to try turning off the spell progression tables and see if that fixes anything. I'll edit my post once I do.
Edit: Uninstalled the spell progression table changes, and started up three oracles to test with. It's going into a new post, since it will have more info than just this test.
Test Oracle Party, with Spell Progression Tables from BG2 Tweaks uninstalled:
* Dwarf, Chaotic Good - Able to choose between Battle, Life, and Murder. - Chose Battle, gained Stoneskin and Blade Barrier in their respective levels - learned two level 1 spells - can cast three level 1 spells - leveling to a point where you can cast spells of Stoneskin's and Blade Barrier's levels makes them count against your spells known instead of being bonus spells
* Elf, True Neutral - Able to choose between Flame, Life, Lore, Nature, and Winter - Chose Lore, gained Identify and Limited Wish in their respective levels - spell knowledge allows choosing from all seven spell levels from the start with unlimited choices except for level 1. leveling up to a point where higher level spells can be cast restores the proper spell knowledge limit for the levels you can cast, but it does not remove extra spells known if you select them early - spell knowledge continues to show higher level spells in the dialogue until you can cast spells of that level and hit the real limit for spells known - learned two level 1 spells with Identify taking up the third slot instead of being a bonus - can cast four level 1 spells - is listed as Oracle of Life in character record and inventory sheet
* Half-Elf, Neutral Good - Able to choose between Flame, Life, Lore, and Nature - Lore is supposed to require LN, TN, or CN; I'd guess it's instead treating it like bards, where they must be at least part N - Chose Life, gained Cure Light Wounds, Cure Medium Wounds, and Raise Dead at their respective levels - learned one level 1 spell, with Cure Light Wounds counting as the second spell known instead of being a bonus - leveling to a point where you can cast spells of Cure Medium Wounds' and Raise Dead's levels makes them count against your spells known instead of being bonus spells
I also played with the wizard slots effect, and I found that it affects spells that can be cast, not spells known. There must be something else that affects spells known that isn't shown in EE Keeper.
@Caelen, the reason that Oracle of Lore knows additional spells is because of the ability to use scripting to check how many spells they can know. Otherwise, it is not possible to change spells known for a single kit.
If I might make a suggestion, since the Pale Master is being removed and I don't know much about the Dark Necromancy would it possible to give Dark Necromancers a "Psuedo-Lich Form" at 20 that gives them all the immunities of a Lich or an Undead Creature? I assume doing a Phylactery would be too difficult unless there can be a script for like "resurrects upon death but can't be used for another 10 in game days."
The Dread Necromancer is my favorite 3e class and I adored that they got a free Lich form at 20 even though I've never played a PnP game that went to 20 XD
would it possible to give Dark Necromancers a "Psuedo-Lich Form" at 20 that gives them all the immunities of a Lich or an Undead Creature?
I actually don't love that idea - and I'm surprised that 3e did that. (Or maybe not so surprised - just another example of why I didn't like 3e ). I feel like becoming an immortal lich is the kind of thing that takes years of research, long dark rituals, special components that take huge quests to find, etc. It's not something that just *happens*. BG's whole campaign takes place over the course of like one year, maybe two. There's too much happening too fast, for the PC to do that. Or at least, that idea wants to be it's own mod, with quests, NPCs, etc. Not just part of a tweak-and-kit mod.
Or, if you want to set it up as a career progression for a kit, there should be other things that go along with it. You could adapt my at-will touch abilities and some other stuff like resistances/immunities as a progression. Though I think given the level limits of these games, full lich abilitirs shouldn't happen until level 30 or so. And there should be downsides as well, like increasing penalties to Str/Dex/Con/Cha. Maybe also penalties to spellcasting speed. (Don't tell me your stuff, half-undead, skeletonized fingers can cast a spell as fast as a skilled young wizard in the prime of life!)
I guess for the Dread Necro in 3e it's supposed to take years to hit level 20. As stated, I've never actually hit 20 in a PnP campaign ever including ones that have lasted years of real life time. To normally craft a phylactery when not a dread necromancer it takes like 100+ days for the crafting process if I recall and they must have a caster level of 12. As for the process of actually becoming a Lich it's up to the DM. The book doesn't actually say.
Edit: Actually the Dread Necro is similar to the Pale Master in that they slowly gain Lich abilities as their level progression. Like the Dread Necro is entirely based upon becoming a Lich.
Edit the second: I actually recommend checking out the Dread Necromancer from the Heroes of Horror. It gains lich-like abilities as it levels up, casts like a sorcerer, but knows every necromancy spell from both the wizard and cleric spell lists.
@Caelen, the reason that Oracle of Lore knows additional spells is because of the ability to use scripting to check how many spells they can know. Otherwise, it is not possible to change spells known for a single kit.
That explains it then. It's easy enough to add spells directly with EE Keeper, at least. That script just needs to take bonus spells into account. I'd offer to help, but I don't have the first clue how to work with mods ^^;
@Valmyr, I think you might find that the (Dark) Necromancer has a lot of what you're looking for in the new release. Also, there are still White Necromancers, so there are two very different Necromancy-themed kits. I've also been looking at bards but don't have anything planned yet.
@Caelen, I've been flip-flopping on whether the bonus spells should be "forced picks" or "bonus picks". I'll probably change them to be actual bonuses in the next iteration. String problems (i.e. kit names being messed up) have also all been fixed.
Is this Android compatible and if not is it feasible to create a version or rig this version to work on Android?
It is not compatible. Anything which relies on dialogue tlk's, WEIDU and most other modding tools will not work on tablets/phones per say. As a rule of thumb, the only modifications which do work on Android are custom portraits and things which you can simply put into the override folder.
I love this mod! I think it captures magic users closer to PnP.
I just started playing around with this and found a couple items I wanted to note (I also have the BG2 Tweak pack installed). The following comments are for BGEE (haven't played BG2EE yet with the mod).
1) When making an Invoker a Red Wizard and selecting Necromancy as the added school to remove it renames him as an Abjurer instead of a red wizard. It seems he does get the two extra spells per level properly. Might be just the description that is off (when you click on kit description).
2) The Magus has 3 first level spells at level 1. When the description says he gets one less spell per level, does this mean spells known or spells cast? It seems I get the same amount of spells cast as a standard sorcerer. Did the BG2 Tweak pack change something it shouldn't have?
3) The ring that doubles 1st level spells seems to see and extra half spell for the Magus. At 1st level I get 7 spells with the ring. The extra spell stays even as I level up. So my 3rd level Magus has 11 level 1 spells with the ring on and 5 when off.
I say, yet again, that a ring called "Evermemory" and designed and enchanted by a mage, should do nothing for sorcerers, who don't *memorize* from a spellbook spells the way mages do...
Simply finding all items granting extra spells and restricting them to mages would nip this bug in the bud.
Noooooo! My sorceress in IWD is rocking the hell out of those rings. 14 magic missiles... 12 Melf's acid arrows... 12 fire elementals... I AM THE GODDESS OF MAGIC! MUHAHAHAHA!
(OK, maybe it's a bit overpowered... just a bit...)
My White Necromancer found a Cloud Kill spell. It shows as evocation school on the scroll, yet I cannot scribe it (it is not already in my book). I should only be restricted from Abjuration and Conjuration (man I miss the Illusion and Enchantment restriction from 2nd addition for the necromancer). Do you have to be the proper level to cast a spell to be able to scribe it in this mod (which is fine with me if that is the case)?
@Necromanx2, am I correct in assuming that you've installed the "Updated Spell Schools" component? If so, I don't believe that the current version updates the descriptions of scrolls for affected spells.
This, and a lot of other small bugs, are fixed in the next version, which will be released probably in December or January...
Comments
As a side note, I found one tiny problem with the Armored Casting. It does not appear to let Mage multiclasses use shields and cast spells, even though it's possible without the mod. I tested it with both a pregenerated character and a freshly made character in the new game menu, using a fighter/mage/cleric. Now my poor little sling user is shieldless
@subtledoctor is right about making the sing more useful. There is a lot of potential in the change bard song opcode
Their downside in 3e is that, while they can do nearly anything, they never excel at anything. They have less skill than a rogue, less physical combat ability than a rogue, and only cast spells up to 6th level (the normal cap for clerics, druids, wizards, and sorcerers is 9th level spells). Their spell selection list, while it does have some nice divine spells added, is also considerably smaller than a sorcerer. Bards do not get fireball, for example. It's all much more illusion and sound focused. The only thing a bard does better than anyone else is diplomancy (which includes bardic music). Nobody persuades NPCs for shop discounts quite like a bard!
I think the bard is to be seen as a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue/Cleric in one class, hence the jack of all trades. Makes a great 5th party member. They can wear light armor and cast, and with a high dex they can make a back-up frontliner. They can stand in the back and toss out debuff and buff spells as well as crowd control stuff with the wizard (As well as some damage spells like Sound Burst). They can hide and move silently as well as pick pocket like a rogue. Finally they can make a decent healer but don't have access to restoration spells I believe, just spells that cure hit points.
Then if not doing any of those things they can use one of their many bardic songs to increase skill bonuses, combat abilities, or debuff enemies.
I enjoy both the 2e Bard (Well, BG/IWD Bard as I have never played a PnP game of 2e) and the 3e/Pathfinder Bard. They both seem to fill the same roll just with minor changes. Bards are most certainly one of my favorite classes and with the Dirge Bard (Song & Silence), Dirgesinger (3e), and Dirge Bard Archetype (Pathfinder) I can play a Necromancer Bard n_n. I do prefer though that they scale with Charisma as I imagine Bards as the charming type.
Edit: Oh, they can't cast with bardic songs up but can fight in melee (or with a bow) as long as their skill is singing or some oratory thing. I like to give my Bard's performance in Acting and Oratory so they can make heroic speeches and monolagues during the fight and that buffs up their friends.
Crazy idea: in the faiths of faerun thread, I remember mortaus(sp) talking about a "song mage" kit whose spells altered the bard song. Maybe this can be a basis for the whole class (?) Would be unique, and would differentiate it from any other class
Possible bug: I made a Neutral Good Oracle, and it allowed me to make him into an Oracle of Lore, which is supposed to be restricted to LN, TN, and CN according to the pdf.
edit 1: It also seems to be calling him an Oracle of Life on the character record, but he clearly has the stats of an Oracle of Lore (faster casting, more casting, non-instant heals, more spells known).
edit 3: Using EE Keeper, I noticed that there is no Oracle of Lore kit, but there are two Oracle of Life kits. It looks like Lore just got the wrong name, which may explain why I could select it on a NG Oracle.
edit 2: second possible bug: I made a CG Oracle, and turned him into an Oracle of Battle. He did not gain any increase to his hp, but his character record did change to say his class bonus per level had increased.
edit 4: third possible bug: I'm just finding all sorts of this this morning. With the Oracles, their bonus spells known do not appear to actually be bonuses. A level 1 Oracle of Life only gets Cure Light Wounds plus one other spell, rather than two spells with Cure as a bonus.
Just to check: do you have any other mods installed?
Remove experience point cap
Multi-class Grandmastery
Un-Nerfed Thac0 table
Un-Nerfed Sorcerer spell progression table
P&P Mage, Bard, Cleric, and Druid spell progression tables
Druid uses Cleric exp progression
Remove Summoning cap for regular summons
All races allowed all multiclass options, including humans
All races allowed to be any single class
All races allowed to dual-class
All races allowed to use any kit
100% learn spells and no maximum cap
Bottomless bags of holding
Remove fatigue from Restoration spells
Unlimited Ammo stacking
Unlimited Gem and Jewelry stacking
Unlimited Potion stacking
Unlimited Scroll stacking
I'm going to try turning off the spell progression tables and see if that fixes anything. I'll edit my post once I do.
Edit: Uninstalled the spell progression table changes, and started up three oracles to test with. It's going into a new post, since it will have more info than just this test.
I'd also love you to incorporate this mod here in yours:
http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/961-iispellsystemadjustments/
I wonder how it behaves compared to SCS (2015 version). Perhaps they are in synergy?
- Able to choose between Battle, Life, and Murder.
- Chose Battle, gained Stoneskin and Blade Barrier in their respective levels
- learned two level 1 spells
- can cast three level 1 spells
- leveling to a point where you can cast spells of Stoneskin's and Blade Barrier's levels makes them count against your spells known instead of being bonus spells
* Elf, True Neutral
- Able to choose between Flame, Life, Lore, Nature, and Winter
- Chose Lore, gained Identify and Limited Wish in their respective levels
- spell knowledge allows choosing from all seven spell levels from the start with unlimited choices except for level 1. leveling up to a point where higher level spells can be cast restores the proper spell knowledge limit for the levels you can cast, but it does not remove extra spells known if you select them early
- spell knowledge continues to show higher level spells in the dialogue until you can cast spells of that level and hit the real limit for spells known
- learned two level 1 spells with Identify taking up the third slot instead of being a bonus
- can cast four level 1 spells
- is listed as Oracle of Life in character record and inventory sheet
* Half-Elf, Neutral Good
- Able to choose between Flame, Life, Lore, and Nature
- Lore is supposed to require LN, TN, or CN; I'd guess it's instead treating it like bards, where they must be at least part N
- Chose Life, gained Cure Light Wounds, Cure Medium Wounds, and Raise Dead at their respective levels
- learned one level 1 spell, with Cure Light Wounds counting as the second spell known instead of being a bonus
- leveling to a point where you can cast spells of Cure Medium Wounds' and Raise Dead's levels makes them count against your spells known instead of being bonus spells
I also played with the wizard slots effect, and I found that it affects spells that can be cast, not spells known. There must be something else that affects spells known that isn't shown in EE Keeper.
The Dread Necromancer is my favorite 3e class and I adored that they got a free Lich form at 20 even though I've never played a PnP game that went to 20 XD
Edit: Actually the Dread Necro is similar to the Pale Master in that they slowly gain Lich abilities as their level progression. Like the Dread Necro is entirely based upon becoming a Lich.
Edit the second: I actually recommend checking out the Dread Necromancer from the Heroes of Horror. It gains lich-like abilities as it levels up, casts like a sorcerer, but knows every necromancy spell from both the wizard and cleric spell lists.
levels beyond 10 for the Shadow Weave mage do exist tbh.
@Caelen, I've been flip-flopping on whether the bonus spells should be "forced picks" or "bonus picks". I'll probably change them to be actual bonuses in the next iteration. String problems (i.e. kit names being messed up) have also all been fixed.
I love this mod! I think it captures magic users closer to PnP.
I just started playing around with this and found a couple items I wanted to note (I also have the BG2 Tweak pack installed). The following comments are for BGEE (haven't played BG2EE yet with the mod).
1) When making an Invoker a Red Wizard and selecting Necromancy as the added school to remove it renames him as an Abjurer instead of a red wizard. It seems he does get the two extra spells per level properly. Might be just the description that is off (when you click on kit description).
2) The Magus has 3 first level spells at level 1. When the description says he gets one less spell per level, does this mean spells known or spells cast? It seems I get the same amount of spells cast as a standard sorcerer. Did the BG2 Tweak pack change something it shouldn't have?
3) The ring that doubles 1st level spells seems to see and extra half spell for the Magus. At 1st level I get 7 spells with the ring. The extra spell stays even as I level up. So my 3rd level Magus has 11 level 1 spells with the ring on and 5 when off.
Thanks for all the hard work!!
(OK, maybe it's a bit overpowered... just a bit...)
This, and a lot of other small bugs, are fixed in the next version, which will be released probably in December or January...
OK, so the labeling of the scrolls is not correct at this time (I installed all components of this mod).
Thanks for the heads up!