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[MOD][BETA] Tome and Blood: More Options for Wizards and Sorcerers

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  • SBF1SBF1 Member Posts: 12
    Well, I was able to figure out what was up, I think!

    At first I wondered if it was an install issue, or if it was this or that, but from a little testing... it seems that if you make a Magus/Bard/Sorc/etc using Pregenerate Character, then import the character into the new game team thing that way, it doesn't take. When starting a file this time, I imported my Pally, Barba, Druid and Thief, and then made the Bard and Magus with the "Create New" option (where at the end it says "Accept" instead of Export). Now the two work just fine!

    If I had to guess, maybe it's something having to do with the difference between BG and IWD? I haven't played the BGs yet, but I imagine most people will create their CHARNAME rather than importing or whatnot.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    Pregenerating characters have an annoying tendency to break things... >.< I'll see if I can recode the armored casting stuff to apply more consistently.

    Thanks for the bug report.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    So, in the upcoming version of TnB, Arcanamachs and Battlemages lose access to a number of different schools. They both already have increased hit dice, various Armored Casting levels and expanded weapon proficiencies.

    What other features would warrant losing access to have of the schools of magic?
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    Maybe these classes should require armored casting...putting it out there
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,979
    None, my game is pretty much in modded, anyways it was fields of the dead that made the change to sleep for some asinine reason.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited August 2015
    Okay, so I am currently creating new spells. Here is the general list so far.

    Need bams!

    Cantrips: (Will be available in addition to those generously provided by @subtledoctor .

    constructive criticism and suggestions welcome and encouraged

    -Fire Bolt (Evocation): d6 bolt of fire. Sv. vs Dragon Breath +2 to avoid -done, though will probably have it improve at certain levels

    -Frost Ray(Evocation): d6 ray of cold Sv. vs Dragon Breath +2 to avoid-done, ditto

    -Resistance: (Abj) +1 to all saves for 1 min- Done, though may need to beef it to compete with SoD Abj cantrip

    -Detect magic: Uses that reveal magic opcode, plus a bonus to lore (divination) - Done

    -Disrupt Undead: (White) Necromancy: 1d10 dam to target undead unless they save vs death +2 -Done

    -Ray of fatigue(White) Necromancy: Ray does dx stunning damage. Save vs dragon breath +2 to avoid- Done 2d6 now- seems steep, 2d4 maybe?

    -Gust (evoc): Wing buffet creature away, tempted to implement zone of clear air, knockdown possible- Not Done. Probably going to drop this one. A bit much for a cantrip, and there is a SR spell that is similar

    -Thunder clap(Evoc): targets around caster save or take stun damage evok- Not Done. May drop this one as well for similar reasons.

    -Cloth armor (Transmutation): Caster gains base AC 8 for 1 hour- done

    -Insight: Touched creature gains bonus to skills/lore (div) - Not Done

    -Expand SubtleDr's 'summon rabbit' to summon choice of critter including chicken, rat (which can attack, I believe), cat, squirrel, and any other small critter that I may be missing. Also, look into making summoned creatures set off traps. - Not done @subtledoctor let me know if this is not acceptable

    -Jolt: Transmutation ranged electric attack - Done

    -Alarm: Div. Instant cast that wakes all party members--it's been a while since I played the game. When a rest is interrupted, aren't some characters still asleep? If not, this would't be worth it. - Not done Will probably abandon

    - Acid spray: (conj) d3/d3 acid attack over 2 rounds. Sv vs dragon breath+2 to avoid- Done

    -Poison Spray (Conj) poison attack, 3 dam - save vs poison or 1 dam per round over 4 rounds, short range- Done

    - Infravision as a cantrip (Partially done--need to check for spell revisions--see below)

    - Chill Touch as a cantrip (Partially done--need to check for spell revisions, and see below)

    -Shocking grasp as a cantrip (partially done-need to check for spell revisions, and see below)

    1st level spells:

    -Forsight: (As replacement for infravision 1st level spell) touched creature gains a specific contingency giving them a bonus to AC triggered when being attacked (assuming that is possible). Div --> infravision to cantrip. Won't be available if Spell Revisions is installed--though infravision as a cantrip will be available-- and not Siege of Dragonspear is installed due to display limits - Not done

    -Other's eyes (better name): Uses #268 to clear fog of war with summoned (and/or dominated/charmed) creatures-like wizard eye-1st or 2nd level divination spell--would obviously require the 'no barred school' component otherwise it would be mostly useless for a diviner. -Partially done, though see discussion.

    -Bungle: Enchanter Target suffers -10 to attacks for x rounds. Replaces 'friends' which becomes a cantrip- Not implemented if Spell revisions is installed due to display limits - Not done

    -Expeditious retreat: Transmutation: replaces shocking grasp, which becomes a cantrip. Bonus to move Not implemented if Spell revisions is installed due to display limits - Apparently I forgot that this was an IWD spell. Not necessary.

    -Heal Undead: (Dark) necromancy. Heals undead creatures, and deals cold damage to living creatures. Replaces chill touch which becomes a cantrip. Not implemented if Spell revisions is installed due to display limits - Partially Done...need to Weidu it

    -Comprehend Languages: I would LOVE to do this one, though it would take a TON of work...if so, I would find a way to incorporate speak languages based on Intelligence...-Unlikely to ever be done, but putting it here for fun

    -Same with disguise self... ditto

    Level 4: Improved Wizard Eye: As wizard eye, but cast spells through it... We'll see.

    Also, I'm thinking about replacements for the "traditional"necromancer spells. Because the black/dread necromancer will automatically get his spells, and they will be barred to everybody else, then there are some additional slots that can be filed with other spells
    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2015
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    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582

    I love a lot of these ideas. And I have a bunch to say/suggest. But no time to type a Wall Of Text at the moment. I'll just note that I heartily endorse beefing up (black) necromancers.

    I tried to improve Larloch's Minor Drain, and Ray of Enfeeblement, and Energy Drain, and gave them sole access to Disintegrate... but even then, they only have *one* really good spell at each level, plus some at-will touch attacks. If they had two good/useful spells at each level that would be ideal.

    One idea: maybe turn my at-will touch attacks back into spells, but improve them by making them ranged instead of touch. (Also, do you like the secondary effects? I like Vampiric Touch allowing a necromancer to control an undead creature, and it's usable at will... if he gets swarmed and that's not enough, he can cast an actual spell (Control Undead). I think that addresses some of the concerns about clerics being better necromancers than necromancers.)

    Mmm, I like this


    Okay I'm back. More thoughts:

    - Moving all necromancy spells to slot 25 and higher makes a ton of sense, if a) only necromancers can learn them, and b) necromancers learn them automatically. Then you free up slots in spell selection screens for more new spells. :smiley:

    Absolutely! Seems silly to waste the slots. And in Siege, they will have to move to slot 37, as wizards/clerics will be able to display 36 spells...so, lots of room, even assuming SR.


    - I love the idea of expanding "summon rabbit" to include other critters. Go crazy! Just FYI I think the creature script I include with my spell does not exist in every game... it's probably worth copying it or writing a new one, and supplying it with the mod. Maybe different animals could have different scripts, that would be a nice, if small, way to differentiate them. (Clearly the rabbit's script should be "attack to the death" per Monty Python.)

    I haven't looked at the guts of the spell, though thanks for the insight! I consider this to be your spell, so I am happy to have your blessing! And, Ha, Attack to the death!


    - Alarm and Comprehend Languages seem like way too much trouble to implement to be worth it.

    Agree. Same with 'disguise self'...


    - I like turning Shocking Grasp into a cantrip (though its damage should not scale as high as vanilla). In fact maybe there should be touch counterparts to the various "bolt/ray" cantrips. Ranged = low damage, chance to avoid; touch = low damage, no chance to avoid, and maybe save or suffer a short (1 round) side effect... Question is, does this veer too much toward the Oblivion touch/ranged magic attacks idea.

    That is not a bad idea. This should get more discussion. One reason that I don't mind giving touch attacks relatively high damage is that..you are in touch range. Of course, that is less of an issue for mage/fighters...Also, regarding the slight debuffs on failed save. I like that you created spells with minor damage on a save, and harsher effects on a failed save. It makes it feel less like a 'waste' when using a spell. I think that SR does this a lot with vanilla spells to good effect. I'm less concerned with cantrips being 'wasted' however. I take them to be the wizard's version of 'basic weapon use' (i.e. like the fighter just swinging his sword or shooting his bow.) I think that it is okay that they miss sometimes.


    - I also like Chill Touch as a cantrip... in fact my current innate Chill Touch would make a good cantrip for necromancers, instead of having them learn it from a scroll. It's more powerful than other cantrips, but I think necromancers should be more powerful than other wizards, especially when it comes to life-force-affecting touch attacks.

    Yeah, I agree. 'If only you knew the power of the Dark Side!'


    - Thunder Clap sounds more like a spell than a cantrip... have you looked at SR's Sound Burst, which replaces Deafness at level 2? (A project le this is going to collide with SR a lot... I don't know whether it's best to give each other a wide berth vs. borrowing some spells/resources vs. just including a ton of compatibility checks.)

    Good point. Personally, I'm going for complete compatibility. I know that I will never play again without SR (and IR)...speaking of which, that reminds me that I really need to do some IR compatibility with item crafting...


    - Gust sounds great, but probably too powerful for a cantrip. If at-will, it would be incredibly spammable with an archer to pepper the forever-buffeted enemy.

    Good point. Also, I think that SR has a superior spell anyway (that incorporates zone of clear air).


    - Bungle sounds great... sort of the opposite of SR's True Strike.

    Yeah, I like it. I got the idea from 5e documentation.


    - Other's Eyes sounds amazing. One of my back burner ideas is to figure out whether it's possible to cast sight-range spells through some intermediary like a summon, or a Wizard Eye, or even another party member. It would be an amazing special boost for diviners.

    Yeah, I have to experiment with it. I really hope that it will work.

    I'm not having much luck with 'foresight', unfortunately...I can still go with my original plan which was to make it give an innate ability that is instant casted giving a high AC and Breath save

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited August 2015
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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited August 2015

    ...

    I actually think this will probably be very hard. My best guess, make some kind of use of the Project Image effect to give the summon/Eye the same spellbook as the caster, then employ scripting to delete spells from the caster's memorized spellbook when they are cast by the remote creature. (Maybe recruit @wolpak to help...) Then the big benefit of Project Image at a higher level, is that you can cast spells remotely *without* losing them from memory. So it still retains its value.

    This is beyond what I had planned for the spell, but I like it! The original spell would just give the clear fog of war to a summoned or charmed creature so they can go start some mischief on their own. That still seems reasonable for a 1st level spell.

    Edit: the original spell idea works like a charm. Still investigating this improvement

    But now you're giving me ideas for an 'improved' wizard eye--which, btw, I feel needs a longer duration. Unfortunately, this would be difficult to implement because I'm not sure how to check for the Simulacrum as an object. Going to ask on Gibberlings, but @wolpak don't be shy if you have an idea!
    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
  • SchattenlampeSchattenlampe Member Posts: 2
    First I want to say: great mod or great ideas.
    When I tried the 'Fighting' Kits yesterday (Mage & Oracle of Tempus) they didn't get any of the supposed extra attacks (LVL 21 and still just 1 Attack). Since I have many mods installed it could be a mistake on my part though.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    Looks like that improved wizard eye is not going to happen...

    @Schattenlampe
    Can you give more information? What other mods do you have installed?
  • SchattenlampeSchattenlampe Member Posts: 2
    BG2Tweaks
    DivineRemix
    Dungeonbegone
    sellswords
    song and silence
    TyrisFlare
    WhiteQueen

    But if you'd tell me that this usually works I'd just make a clean install again and try on my own.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    What version of Tome and Blood do you have installed? I believe I removed the bonus APR for Oracles of Battle and Magi in the currently available version because they were just outclassing fighters at high levels.
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,979
    So I think I found a bug, I was using the DD kit, read to be specific, and Charname wouldn't attack an unconscious enemy. When I put them to sleep or Viconia knocked them down, he'd just stop attacking. Every time I clicked to attack, he'd cancel it, but the meon and Viconia were still attacking them.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    @DragonKing, that's odd but I highly doubt it is from this mod. There is no scripting applied to characters (other than some invisible creatures for things like Spell Selection through Dialog). Do you have any other mods installed?
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,979

    @DragonKing, that's odd but I highly doubt it is from this mod. There is no scripting applied to characters (other than some invisible creatures for things like Spell Selection through Dialog). Do you have any other mods installed?

    Nothing that affects combat that way.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    Hmmm... that's quite odd. I'll look into this.
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,368

    So I think I found a bug, I was using the DD kit, read to be specific, and Charname wouldn't attack an unconscious enemy. When I put them to sleep or Viconia knocked them down, he'd just stop attacking. Every time I clicked to attack, he'd cancel it, but the meon and Viconia were still attacking them.

    Is Charname unarmed? The engine will not allow you to attack an unconscious creature with your fists, Monks excluded.
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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I see some potential issues with cantrips.

    If cantrips are at will, they should probably be incompatible with Improved Alacrity, unless you're removing the spell in this mod, or it's not possible in this mod to get zero casting time. Otherwise IA could let you cast tens of cantrips per round.

    You could add a short delay to the renewal of the cantrip. Instead of duplicating the global effect remove->add innate ability you see in Pocket Plane (the only way I know to make spells usable an unlimited number of times per day even if they're disrupted), you add a 1-second delay, or 5 or 6 second delay, so they can't be cast instantly repeatedly.

    However, I've found that if a character dies within those seconds, they lose the spell permanently. Adding a spell that restores them, but is impractical or impossible to cast in combat, would prevent fallen mages from losing their cantrips. They might lose the spell after dying, but could restore it later.

    Or, you could add a short duration effect to the cantrips that disables innate spells. This would, however, block all cantrips alongside any other innates the player might want to use. Also, if cantrips are cast via the innate abilities menu, they could be cast while shapeshifted, which we may not want.
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 1,069
    @subtledoctor , I was thinking about doing the "modal claws" idea. Given that it otherwise won't work properly, I guess I'll see if I can get them to work.

    @semiticgod , the thing with unlimited cantrips and Improved Alacrity is that it is possible to get unlimited magic missiles etc. using Robe of Vecna, Improved Alacrity, Time Stop and Wish in a vanilla unmodded game. Thus, cantrips are no more abusable than systems that already exist in game, and cantrips would not change the problem actors of that system.
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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Aquadrizzt: Using Wish-resting is unreliable, though. You still need to get the right wish option for an endless Magic Missile stream. The cantrip stream would be guaranteed.

    Some of the cantrips might still be overpowered with IA. I don't know how many you could cast in two rounds, but when I was using an IA Psionic Blast stream, it looked like it was firing once per frame. There are a lot of frames in two rounds (360, actually). Even a fraction of that could make IA far more powerful than it already is.

    @subtledoctor: Adding a delay to both the remove and add innate ability effects wouldn't solve the problem entirely, but it's an almost perfect solution. The character still loses the ability if it dies during the delay, and wouldn't get it back until resting, whereas ideally it would have it back immediately on resting.

    Or, we could add a new effect to solve the problem: Cantrip A's last effect grants immunity to Cantrip A for 5 seconds. The same target therefore couldn't be hit by an endless stream of cantrips during IA, and the cantrip spam would be limited by the number of critters on the map.

    So, two delayed global effects that remove and add the cantrip, like subtledoctor suggested, or an effect on casting that grants target immunity to a second casting for a few seconds. Both would work.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582

    I see some potential issues with cantrips.

    If cantrips are at will, they should probably be incompatible with Improved Alacrity, unless you're removing the spell in this mod, or it's not possible in this mod to get zero casting time. Otherwise IA could let you cast tens of cantrips per round.

    You could add a short delay to the renewal of the cantrip. Instead of duplicating the global effect remove->add innate ability you see in Pocket Plane (the only way I know to make spells usable an unlimited number of times per day even if they're disrupted), you add a 1-second delay, or 5 or 6 second delay, so they can't be cast instantly repeatedly.

    However, I've found that if a character dies within those seconds, they lose the spell permanently. Adding a spell that restores them, but is impractical or impossible to cast in combat, would prevent fallen mages from losing their cantrips. They might lose the spell after dying, but could restore it later.

    Or, you could add a short duration effect to the cantrips that disables innate spells. This would, however, block all cantrips alongside any other innates the player might want to use. Also, if cantrips are cast via the innate abilities menu, they could be cast while shapeshifted, which we may not want.

    Thanks for pointing this out @semiticgod

    This is worth testing.

    Each cantrip will be associated with a local variable. If necessary, each casting of a cantrip can instantly create a special that summons an invisible creature that will give the character all of their cantrips back in dialog when the special is used. The special would be removed on the same delay as the recovery of the cantrip. So, if you lose the cantrip, you have the special and can recover your cantrips. But when you get your cantrip back, the special is removed.

    That is, if it is a problem.
  • GalactygonGalactygon Member, Developer Posts: 412
    edited August 2015
    I agree with @semiticgod on preventing IA/Robe of Vecna abuse. Although I actually feel casting time should never be lower than one except for at-will abilities, but that is an engine limitation for now.

    You could still refrain from unlimited cantrips by implementing a "Cantrip" wizard spell and an "Orison" priest spell, as they have done in AD&D. Basically you would be replacing one first level spell slot by multiple cantrip slots. Then you don't have to resort to trickery to prevent unlimited cantrip abuse (there are plenty of other ways to abuse the game).

    See AD&D Orison description here: http://supersutter.net/Alcirya/Tools/Spells/Priest/Level 01/Orison.html
    In AD&D Cantrip doesn't create any effects that have a tangible effect ingame (loss of even a single hit point and so on), but you could do something similar to Orison: casting the 1st-level spell "Cantrip" could grant several instances of an innate ability called "Cantrip", which would then open a spell-immunity type menu with different effects to your pleasing. You can avoid polymorph/shapechange abuse by having the cantrip ability show up under the spells section rather than the innate abilities section.

    I avoid scripting with invisible creatures where possible. It's inherently unreliable.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    One thing that I don't like about making cantrips (and orisons) a spell is that the purpose I had in mind was to allow mages to do something 'magic-y' when either 1 they have run out of slots or (more likely) when, in a given encounter or round it is not necessary to use a slot.

    Basically, the idea is to enhance low level play. If higher level options allow for abuse, I think I would rather deal with them individually.
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  • CaelenCaelen Member Posts: 19
    I would love to see bards cast and learn spells like a sorcerer and be able to do something other than walking around while singing. Bard songs were temporary buffs in 2e which did not prevent any further actions from the bard. In 3e, they were more mode-like (as IWD:EE treats them) and prevented spellcasting and magic item usage while singing. Some specific songs also prevent standard actions (since they require standard actions to maintain), but this was not the case for all songs.

    Basically, I'd like the bard to be more 3e style.

    For the rest of the mod I love all of it. It's very well made.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    Caelen said:

    I would love to see bards cast and learn spells like a sorcerer and be able to do something other than walking around while singing. Bard songs were temporary buffs in 2e which did not prevent any further actions from the bard. In 3e, they were more mode-like (as IWD:EE treats them) and prevented spellcasting and magic item usage while singing. Some specific songs also prevent standard actions (since they require standard actions to maintain), but this was not the case for all songs.

    Basically, I'd like the bard to be more 3e style.

    For the rest of the mod I love all of it. It's very well made.

    I completely agree. We have tried to simulate sorcerer casting, but have been unsuccessful. Unless Camdawg or Avenger says otherwise, this seems to be impossible. It might be possible to allow them to gain unique spells, but I am not sure if it is possible to prevent them from learning spells from wizard scrolls. But, testing it is on the list
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