Which of these three Bhaalspawns hold the most endgame potential?
Stormvessel
Member Posts: 654
Which of these Bhaalspawns hold the most potential in terms of power (playing all the way through the saga)? I know they are all excellent but I cannot decide which one I should first commit to playing. Note: They are all brand new and I haven't yet used any ability tomes.
Odion, my Half-Elf Dragon Disciple Sorcerer (I chose Half-Elf for the extra constitution which I hope to eventually get to 21 for the regen):
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/DD_zps3553c5a1.jpg
Ekklezius, my Elven Talos Priest:
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/TalosPriest_zps6708861c.jpg
Finrod, my Elven Archer (I will eventually get him the Gauntless of Archery as well as add the boots of speed and eventually add 2 extra DEX):
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/Finrod_zps23eba516.jpg
Odion, my Half-Elf Dragon Disciple Sorcerer (I chose Half-Elf for the extra constitution which I hope to eventually get to 21 for the regen):
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/DD_zps3553c5a1.jpg
Ekklezius, my Elven Talos Priest:
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/TalosPriest_zps6708861c.jpg
Finrod, my Elven Archer (I will eventually get him the Gauntless of Archery as well as add the boots of speed and eventually add 2 extra DEX):
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/Finrod_zps23eba516.jpg
Post edited by Stormvessel on
1
Comments
All three characters are good.
I think you should try them all and decide what playstyle suits your own taste better. Usually it doesn't take much time to understand if this or that especially "ticks" for you.
From my point of view, the most potential in terms of power through all the saga belongs to Odion. Of course, an Elven Archer is a machine in BG1 but you look at the whole saga and in the late SoA and in ToB it won't be so badass any more. A Talos Priest can be not so OP but with due buffing he's a solid tank and his summoned skeletons (also buffed) can kill many enemies without much trouble due to high Magic Resistance.
But a Dragon Disciple is more powerful than them combined. With an accurate spell selection he can be an invinsible character right from levels 3-4 till the very end of ToB. And in the very start of BG1 just use wands of Sleep and you'll be fine.
I would like to mention that 21 CON is nearly the same as 20 CON - both these numbers give regeneration, the only difference is it's 1HP per 60 seconds and 1HP per 50 seconds.
BTW, nice pictures and stats;)
In any case, thank you so much! Kind of a bummer to hear about Finrod, but I will probably save him for last and just run through the first game with him.
My Stormlord is the one I was hoping people would say is the most powerful because his roll was godlike. But I will still have a good time with him. I will look at it from the perspective that his strength lies not in solo power, but rather in the control, utilization, support, and implementation of those around him. He will make those around him stronger, and of course I am coming at this from a RP standpoint.
As for Odion, I was tempted to go with a vanilla sorcerer, and he probably would have held more offensive potential if I would have, but I chose Dragon Disciple not only because of the RP aspects, but because even with less spells he still casts around the same number of spells as a specialized mage (for most of the game, at least), and he also comes with really good bonuses that gives him awesome potential.
So you sound pretty convinced it's Odion. Then I shall go with Odion. He's a badass.
Lift my DEX to 21 (Tome, Lum)
Obtain any of the + 1 Archer bonuses that comes every few levels
GM'd Longbow
Equipped the Archery Bracers
Obtained a magical Longbow
...and again, it's already 14!
I dropped that Ogre on the way to the FAI in like 2-3 shots, and I am one shotting most mobs and I rarely ever miss! How is it that my Archer will be anything less than a broken killing machine at level 35 decked out in gear and bonuses?
I believe you guys, I really do. You obviously know way more about this game than I do. I just want to understand WHY something that seems so obviously broken on the surface will be underpowered in ToB. I just want to learn why.
Also there are enemies in BG2 that are immune to weapons that don't at least meet a certain degree of enchantment (for instance you need to use a +3 or +4 weapon to hit them). While its not impossible to hit these enemies with an archer using a bow/crossbow your options when it comes to hitting them is limited to bows/crossbows that magically create their own ammo (you can buy +3 ammo in ToB but otherwise thats about it). Despite them getting a +4 Thac0 bonus Arrows of Piercing for instance are actually treated by the game as being +1 weapons (rather than +4) when it comes to determining what they can hit.
Another reason is that they don't get a strength damage bonus (unlike melee weapons) or any other bonus to their damage based on other stats like dexterity. They really just get a better chance to hit (with improved Thac0). By the time you are in ToB its not uncommon for every warrior in your party to have 19 strength or more (through items in some cases) so every one of their attacks gets +7 damage from that.
With speed weapons (belm, kundane) another warrior can match (or exceed in the case of longbows) the number of attacks per round that you get with melee that you can get with a bow.
Also a lot of enemies are either resistant against piercing/missile attacks (especially certain types of undead) or they are wearing armor (plate mail) that is more reliable against it (compared to say slashing or crushing attacks).
Their bonus every 3 levels changes to being every 5 levels (I believe this is after level 18). This means that the max damage bonus they can get from being an archer is +9 (I'm just talking kit bonus here).
You can of course use slings (and get the archer thac0/damage bonus), but you can only specialise in them (no grandmastery). Since you also can't use a speed weapon while using them your APR is limited. Also the ammo that is available for bullets is kind of lackluster compared to your options with bolts and arrows.
They do however get Called Shot which can be a very good ability if used strategically.
In any case, it does indeed seem as though Archer is rendered moot.
But I do know that your answer is extremely helpful and I now know what to expect. Thank you very much for taking the time to write that. I read all of it and will reference it again in the future.
Edit: I forgot to mention the versatility aspect. After grand mastering in longbows I was free to put my one pips in a huge amount of different weapons. I was using a lot of lesser-used weapons with him when he had to get his hands dirty and that was pretty fun as well...
- great THACO
- Great APR
- great damage with totally OP special arrows
- low HP ennemies drop before even reaching you
But the thing is that anything using bow will be very strong in BGEE especially when then have some additionnal special powers like poison weapon (blackguard, assassin)
however in BG2 everything changes :
- getting huge strength bonus for melee is easy
- getting more APR with melee is also easy
- magical bows are suboptimal compared to melee weapons
- magical arrows are severly nerfed
- ennemies have more hp and will close up in melee
Nonetheless the archer, thanks to its huge THACO/damage bonus remains strong. And he is not completely useless (far from it) in melee either.
But even for range i feel that he is outclassed by a blackguard or assassin->fighter dual.
From my point of view, the most potential in terms of power through all the saga belongs to Odion.
Yes, although I agree on this point, too. ;D
Though if you were to ask me, perhaps Finrod should remain under the trees, with his father...he deserves the rest.
I would also like to quote several @Lord_Tansheron 's posts regarding Archers (that I found very insightful in the past). We can even call her an archer specialist, so good her posts about Archers are.
1) I find Archers useful and strong. Keep in mind that BG1 and early/mid SoA are not an insignificant part of the game. You need to *get* those busted endgame weapons first after all! And though Archers taper off in their effectiveness later on, they aren't useless. Their ammo can still be used to great effect and with great flexibility, and a little reduced endgame power is I think an okay trade for their complete and utter early/midgame dominance.
2) Archers are amazing early/mid game. For vanilla games, you can totally rock with them. For modded high-difficulty games, there are many better alternatives.
Later in the series there is quite a bit of piercing resistance going around. Several mobs take very little damage from your ranged weapons, some are even completely immune. Resistances to melee weapon types are far less prevalent. Range is also less of an issue as the game progresses and you gain access to regular Haste spell buffs and Boots of Speed. There is no more need to kite things, you can just run up there and slash it in two!
Keep in mind, though, that these differences are fairly minor when talking about the vanilla version of the game. While immunity to +3 and lower weapons can be a bother, there's plenty of ways to get around it as an Archer; the performance hit you suffer won't be very pronounced in an unmodded game. Archers are a completely valid choice for the entire saga, start to finish.
With difficult mods, though, I'd prefer not to use an Archer. Early/mid game only lasts so long, and many of the more difficult fights are towards the end of the game. At that point Archers won't be a lot of help, though they certainly are possible to go through with. I finished Ascension/SCSII on Insane with an Archer CHARNAME, but there is no doubt it would be significantly easier with a more melee-focused setup. The difference in damage output and utility (Archer is a single class after all) is very pronounced at that level of play, and creates unnecessary encumbrance.
3) Ultimately, the question becomes this: "why do I want to play an Archer?"
If the answer is "because I want to play one" or "because ranged weapons are cool", then go right ahead and play one, because fun is the most important thing in the end. I can stress that enough: do not let objective arguments or powergaming concern ruin your experience of the game. If you derive fun from analytical optimization of characters, that's one thing - but 99% of players won't be like that. Make your enjoyment your top priority: this is a game, not a job!
If however you are more inclined towards powergaming and your answer to the question is "because I think they are the objectively best choice for my party", then you should re-examine that answer more closely. In my opinion, there is little to no compelling reason to use an Archer over a fighter-type dual/multi class combination in the vast majority of setups.
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/Sunder_zps57bf0628.jpg
I will give him 5 points in scimitars, 5 points in Katana, and 3 points in Two-weapon fighting by lvl 27. He will eventually wield Celestial Fury and in the off-hand Belm (might switch to Spectral Brand in ToB), and he will have 21 STR.
As to the RP-aspects, well tbh every character can be roleplayed in an interesting way. It's just that I've become more interested in roleplaying evil (and certain forms of Neutral) lately. Just so many ways of creating awesomeness. An example, once posted by @KidCarnival:
As cleric, I am a chaotic evil Priest of Talos. He considers himself lawful good, and claims to follow a strict code of honor. That is total bullshit, but in his mind, it's true. He's also morbidly fascinated with death and actually has some sense of honor in regards to spiritual matters. This justifies some "good" deeds; that he has a certain respect for true believers regardless of faith. It also goes with his chaotic view to donate to temples of other gods. To him, it's just paying his respects to a deity that allowed a priest to heal/revive a party member. It is his way to show he is holier than thou; his deity is so certain of his faith and dedication, Talos doesn't mind him frequenting temples of others.
He'll use his god-given ability to call lightning to fry a sacrifice to Talos daily. This can be in battle, it can be a random animal if no hostile is nearby, or it can be a commoner if neither animals nor hostiles are there. It's very convenient that this is a once per day ability. It *must* be used. So justifications for killing commoners aren't difficult, and it's chaotic to say "nothing personal, my god demands a sacrifice - wrong time, wrong place *ZAP*". To me, it's not "mindless killing". It's charname's compulsion to worship this way. Counting battles and animals/creatures with no rep loss also prevents this from turning into a hide and seek with Flaming Fists.
Xzar is a frequent party member for the Priest of Talos. Both are naturally high wisdom characters, and they share their fascination with death. I absolutely do not buy into the "evil prevents friendship/respect" thing, because a game can't tell me that is true and have evil Viconia and evil Dorn as romance options. So charname is sort of friends with Xzar, or at least they respect each other. Both are chaotic evil, so they don't consider the other as insane. They see each other as insightful peers. They will conduct experiments with mortality to gain insights. For example, they may kill someone with the declared goal of having necromancer Xzar bring the victim back to life, and then study the changes. Though they don't consider themselves or each other as insane, they still *are* insane and don't realize Xzar will not be able to do that. They think they just need to try a different approach. And because they are also selfish and want all the wisdom for themselves, they'll do these mortality experiments in places where no-one can see them or call the guards. (Not reputation related, but an element of this rp angle: Xzar will find a skull in High Hedge and become friends with it. I treat the skull like Boo, voluntarily blocking a quickuse slot.)
The Archer and the Talassan lose some steam in BG2 but the Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple not only stays strong but gets even stronger.
But in BG1, the Elven Archer just destroys everything.
These types of characters fascinate me so much more than the more predictable heroic good ones (be they lawful or chaotic in their ways). I've had a blast with a Chaotic Neutral Swashbuckler and his band of thieves. He has low WIS and considers himself a true hero after having completed a couple of quests. However he and his party have messed up big time (with a reputation of 4 he's completely unaware of, until the entire population of Nashkel went hostile on the party).
An interesting angle used by @CharlestonianTemplar, is to actively involve your God (Talos) in your decisions. An example of his writing:
Mordred, a servant & Black Guard of Asmodeus. I’ve restructured my retinue as I sense my lord is leading me to do. My Berserker Lieutenant is now my Berserker Sergeant. In no way is this a demotion but simply a change of title. He remains my most trusted follower & protector. I’ve promoted my Conjurer to third in my chain as I have come to realize his worldview is the same as mine & that of my Berserker Sergeant. I value his service & his connection to the Red Wizards as far as that can benefit my efforts on behalf of Asmodeus, my liege lord. I know he is also the one I must watch most closely therefore, bringing him closer to my inner circle is in keeping w/the adage, ‘Keep your friends close & your enemies even closer.’ My Bard/Herald/Sage is just that. He is my messenger & speaks for me. When we are not travelling he is charged w/designing my Coat of Arms which will include images of my place of origin, Candlekeep, & will be dominated by my lord Asmodeus’ symbol. For now, he is working on ideas & bringing them to me for guidance. He has no role in my chain of command beyond being my messenger & an outstanding Sage (Lore 65). My Illusionist compliments the abilities of my Conjurer & will remain w/me for that purpose. I still petition my lord for a Rogue w/a full complement of thieving skills & for a Cleric. Should he bless me w/both I will likely release the Illusionist from my service.
For what it's worth, I did fill in the biography for Ekklezius when I created him. You can read it here, but be warned it's kinda lame.
http://i1137.photobucket.com/albums/n511/Samuel_Rosenbalm/Biography_zps1f24f46b.jpg
Liked your bio, and I'd love to read how Ekklezius left Candlekeep to wreak havoc on the Sword Coast....
Highly recommended.
A friend once rolled 100 with a Elven Ranger on my iPad, but he never played that character...
...and he maxed out WIS, CHA and INT, left DEX at 18 and accepted his 18/23 STR.
As for who you should play -- Praise the Stormlord!
http://ge.tt/4NgUzEh1/v/0?c