I chose Wizardslayer/Mage because it is, to date, the only Fighter/Mage combo I have ever played. Incidentally, it was my first Charname ever, made shortly after buying the game in late 2000 - (might have even been in the SoA demo, can't recall.) I chose Wizardslayer because of the cool sounding name and dual classed him into mage by accident upon experimenting with the interface. If memory serves, I clicked dual-class because I thought it had something to do with dueling (my English was not very strong back then) and I was anxious to test my mettle against a mage, being a Wizardslayer and all. Needless to say, it did not turn out too well, and I ended up rerolling shortly after Chateau Irenicus.
I beg to differ Let's suppose you're going to dual at lvl13 with Kensai and Berserker. Then we have a Kensai/Mage that deals +4 dmg due to his passive ability and a Berserker that deals the same: +2 for Rage and +2 for Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. PLUS, the Berserker will have +1/2 ApR more than the Kensai...
It also depends on what weapons you are using. If you are both using Katana's for instance then using Kai will grant you on average 4.5 more damage (over a berserker).
Personally I don't like dual classes but I figured I'd still point that out.
I recently played modded elf fighter/enchanter multiclass, Xan-like character in BG2. He was a peace loving fella and he wanted to use his mind tricks to avoid battles as much as possible. Needless to say, he was constantly failing to do so, leaving hundreds of dead bodies behind him, which caused a lot of depressions. He did accept the gifts offered to him eventually...
At high-level duals, the Kensai/Mage has considerably better combat bonuses than the Berserker/Mage
I beg to differ Let's suppose you're going to dual at lvl13 with Kensai and Berserker. Then we have a Kensai/Mage that deals +4 dmg due to his passive ability and a Berserker that deals the same: +2 for Rage and +2 for Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization. PLUS, the Berserker will have +1/2 ApR more than the Kensai...
At high-level duals where XP is no issue because of XP farming, the Kensai/Mage beats the Berserker/Mage hands down because rage immunities can be superseded by spell immunities, and then the Kensai/Mage beats the Berserker/Mage soundly with sheer brute force.
Aside from the fact that you're probably gonna waste multiple spells to keep up with Rage's immunities, same can be said for "Kensai's considerably better comber bonuses" and a banal PfMW.
I'm pleased to see someone throw down the gauntlets.
For starters, I define high-level duals as above L13. Typically, L17/25, L19/24, L21/22 for Fighter/Mages. I also consider the character in the presence of a supportive party with access to both mage and priest spells. If you are talking about solo play or duals lower than L17, I need not discuss further since I have already acknowledged that the Berserker/Mage is superior in those circumstances.
1.1. The Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization are overrated in your comparison. A Kensai can reach 5APR with weapon grandmastery and a +1 APR weapon. Granted, it restricts the Kensai's choice of weapons, but in terms of raw brute strength, a high-level Berserker will still lose to a high-level Kensai, except for relatively uncommon circumstances that I will not describe further here.
1.2. You also need to consider that if a character is using the gauntlets, it cannot then be used by another, say Sarevok or anyone who is also well-positioned to make good use of it (e.g. a warrior equipped with a special effect damage weapon like Ravager, Carsomyr). If you have a Berserker/Mage with 5APR with gauntlets, and another good fighter with 3APR, you can swap the gauntlets for a Berserker/Mage with 4.5APR and another good fighter with 3.5APR - no loss of total APR and hence the difference in overall party effectiveness is slight, if at all.
2. Advantage Berserker/Mage because to make a Kensai/Mage more worthwhile than a Berserker/Mage, the player has to wait for longer. The Berserker/Mage is good to go at a lower level and has an easier time recovering his abilities.
3. Why use something else when PfMW does it best? Between weapons, support casters, and personal spell protections, you already have just about all the protections you need. Unless you are going solo, which requires different considerations for character build and spell selection, I do not see why you must have the Fighter/Mage cast his own protections.
I'm sure you can come up with better arguments than what you had previously posted. Fire away
It also depends on what weapons you are using. If you are both using Katana's for instance then using Kai will grant you on average 4.5 more damage (over a berserker).
Personally I don't like dual classes but I figured I'd still point that out.
If you are talking about solo play or duals lower than L17, I need not discuss further since I have already acknowledged that the Berserker/Mage is superior in those circumstances.
Why should I ever consider to dual-class at 17? It's madness. o.O By the way yes, I was talking about solo or with all top items avaiable.
We're talking about a late (apparently level 17 for some reason) kensai dual. You get 1 APR from ***** in katana's, 1 APR from level 7 and 13, 1 APR from dual wielding, and 1 apr from a speed weapon. Plus your usual 1 apr from that any character gets. It works out to be 10 apr with Improved Haste either way.
So yes technically even a Kensai/Mage dualed at level 13 will outdamage a berserker/mage. If you use Kai. Frankly though I prefer the fighter/illusionist multiclass.
We're talking about a late (apparently level 17 for some reason) kensai dual. You get 1 APR from ***** in katana's, 1 APR from level 7 and 13, 1 APR from dual wielding, and 1 apr from a speed weapon. Plus your usual 1 apr from that any character gets. It works out to be 10 apr with Improved Haste either way.
So yes technically even a Kensai/Mage dualed at level 13 will outdamage a berserker/mage. If you use Kai. Frankly though I prefer the fighter/illusionist multiclass.
If a Berserker 13/Mage 28 wears the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization or Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise to be on par with the Kensai 13/Mage 28, he is denying another character the use of the gauntlets. The total damage output of the party would be lower with a Berserker/Mage.
For the early game, before the dual is complete, the multi is obviously stronger.
Later on - the multi is a much better fighter thanks to HLA - the dual is barely better at casting than a specialist (illusionist multi).
Overall, you get a character which is significantly weaker at the beginning (potentially for a very long time depending on when you want to dual) while being roughly at the same level for the end-game
It's not to say Berserker or kensai / mage are bad. They are actually very OP. But they do not compare well (unless maybe you are willing to do jacobtan xp farming) with multi.
I would prefer berserker over kensai because, if dualling at 7, 9 or even 13, the kensai bonus will not be significant enough (especially when factoring the gauntets of weap exp).
I didn't know my name is now a brand of XP farming LOL
That aside, a multi Fighter/Mage will outperform the dual Fighter/Mage more often than not, except if you go extreme XP farming for a Kensai/Mage, then the Kensai/Mage outstrips the multi Fighter/Mage in power. Even HLAs are not enough to help the multi Fighter/Mage:
1. Whirlwind/Greater Whirlwind - the Kensai can already reach 5APR as @elminster and I have noted. This is 10APR with Improved Haste 2. Deathblow/Greater Deathblow - nice abilities but not essential. The Kensai relies on superior damage to deal with monsters and bosses are generally immune to these anyway 3. Power Attack/Critical Strike/Smite - as a family of abilities, it is probably weaker than Deathblow/Greater Deathblow. Saves for TOB monsters are strong enough to reduce Power Attack to a flavor ability. Kensais already have superior THAC0 and many monsters have some form of helmet on so the double-damage does not kick in. Smite is a good niche ability, but IIRC it can only be selected once 4. Hardiness - I like this one but if I have to, I will simply use Stoneskin or Protection from Magical Weapons 5. War Cry - Eh... perhaps a devil's advocate can come in to wax lyrical about its awesomeness
On the other hand, the Kensai/Mage has combat bonuses and weapon grandmastery which translate into more damage. That he does not require gauntlets to boost damage frees up the gauntlets for use by another fighter in the party. We do not even need to talk about Kai here, which IMO is a limited-use, limited-duration ability that is rather irrelevant. As for spellcasting, the Illusionist is good but he loses out on a few nifty spell sequences like chain ADHW and Skull Trap.
The real problems of the Kensai/Mage compared to the multi Fighter/Mage are:
- Limited weapon/style selection. He has to take two-weapon style and use a +1APR weapon and put all (or nearly all) his proficiency points to his chosen weapons to reach the pinnacle of damage output. No ranged weapons for him either, unless he uses throwing weapons or the Big Metal Rod - An excruciatingly long incubation period especially if you go to extremes for XP farming. I consider this the deal-breaker for the majority of players who dismiss the Kensai/Mage - dual at L9/L13 does not offer enough firepower, and dual at L17+ takes too long - No room for flexibility and error. The Kensai/Mage needs a very specific build and setup to outshine his competitors in damage output. He cannot readily switch weapons for a different combat strategy - he is a melee damage specialist, not a melee generalist
To sum things up, all these are very strong characters: multi Fighter/Mage, Berserker/Mage and Kensai/Mage. I see this as the general pecking order of power:
high-level dual Kensai/Mage > multi Fighter/Mage = Berserker/Mage > Kensai/Mage
Not going to pick sides for multi Fighter/Mage and Berserker/Mage here - I prefer the multi but both characters have their followings. So, since most players I know will not go to extremes for XP farming, the pecking order is essentially reduced to:
@jacobtan Actually he didn't mention double damage at any point. Auto crits are meaningful even without double damage, because they automatically connect.
@jacobtan Actually he didn't mention double damage at any point. Auto crits are meaningful even without double damage, because they automatically connect.
With a sufficiently good THAC0, you can reach a maximum of 95% hit chance, with the remaining 5% lost to critical misses. This translates into one miss out of 20 hits. The additional damage from the Kensai's combat bonuses multiplied 19 times is more than enough to make up for the loss of damage from the single miss.
@jacobtan Of course, but what is sufficiently good THAC0, and is it easily reachable?
I will give you the benefit of doubt that your question is not a rhetorical one and will answer accordingly based on PnP rules.
Your THAC0 - Target AC (including modifiers) = X, where X is the minimum number you need to roll on 1d20 in order to hit.
If your THAC0 is -10, even if your target has an AC of -12, you will be able to hit 95% of the time
-10 - (-12) = -10 + 12 = 2 on a roll of 1d20 (since 1 is critical miss)
You can actually answer your own question by checking your THAC0 and looking up monster AC values. The Kensai gets there easily because of his THAC0 bonuses.
@jacobtan That doesn't answer the question "What is sufficiently good THAC0, and is it easily reachable?"
Oh, it has already answered the question, even if it is not in a way that you may like
Simply ask yourself, how good does your THAC0 get, and look up the creature source files for their AC values, do a few sums, and you will know how much you need.
I know how THAC0 works. What the question asks for is numbers.
Since you know how THAC0 works, then there is no need for me to answer you further, unless you wish to compensate me for my time. I need clearance from my company's corporate compliance department to take on a side income from you though
@jacobtan Well, aren't you difficult. My question was what is a sufficient THAC0 and is it easily reachable, because without these facts your point is moot. But if you can't answer, I guess that settles the argument.
@jacobtan Well, aren't you difficult. My question was what is a sufficient THAC0 and is it easily reachable, because without these facts your point is moot. But if you can't answer, I guess that settles the argument.
Oh, I am not being difficult, just not willing to waste time on hopeless endeavors. But as a service to the community, I will enclose some stats:
In order to hit at 95% chance, the target must have an AC of -15 or worse.
Check the creature files and see for yourself how many monsters have -15 AC, and see the general AC range of the more potent monsters, and you will have your answer.
However, it is for this specific setup only. If for some reason you are using Crom Faeyr in your main hand, the THAC0 is boosted by 3 more points, then you can hit monsters with 95% chance even if they have -18 AC.
The numbers change based on equip setup, so expecting me to give a specific number that applies to all is not just unreasonable, but intellectually slothful.
We're talking about a late (apparently level 17 for some reason) kensai dual. You get 1 APR from ***** in katana's, 1 APR from level 7 and 13, 1 APR from dual wielding, and 1 apr from a speed weapon. Plus your usual 1 apr from that any character gets. It works out to be 10 apr with Improved Haste either way.
So yes technically even a Kensai/Mage dualed at level 13 will outdamage a berserker/mage. If you use Kai. Frankly though I prefer the fighter/illusionist multiclass.
Yes, but a Kensai/Mage can reach 10 ApR with a speed weap (which is just a +2 boring weap) or 8 with a proper one. A Berserker/Mage reaches 9 with a good one. Also, against enemies immune to +2 weapon or less, the B/M is better.
@FinneousPJ to answer your question, considering that The Winged (from BP2) is the enemy with the best AC in the whole game (-17), a thac0 of -15 would be enough for everything. THAC0 -15, AC -17: Minimum roll = -15 - (-17) = -15 + 17 = 2 or higher, since 1 is a critical miss anyway.
In the BG saga I think -12 is the best AC you can find (Demogorgon, some dragons, etc) so here -10 would be enough, I guess.
Thanks for chiming in. I just have a little bit more to add.
I remember Ascension Abazigal has -18 AC. So the numbers may have to be adjusted. As and when there are new monsters with stronger AC, the numbers need to be adjusted again.
I also think the actual AC based on EE Keeper is lower than the real AC (I cannot confirm this though), since it is the AC applied before Dex bonuses.
Regardless, this is the "sufficient THAC0" reasoning I was driving at. Determine the strongest AC of the monsters against which you want 95% hit chance, then work on the THAC0. This will obviously change based on equip setup, stats, choice of monsters, and even mods.
Finally some numbers. So it seems in the vanilla games reaching a sufficient THAC0 isn't very difficult.
Indeed.
Based on my old BG2 installation with Ascension, the figures were souped up. Improved Melissan and Fallen Solar had -14, Improved Demogorgon had -16, Improved Abazigal had -18. Mariliths had -13, balors -12. They might have had further AC modifiers from equips. A player who plays BG2 without Ascension should have an easier "sufficient THAC0" though.
In any case, the player must decide what is "sufficient" - is it to cover all non-bosses, all bosses, or something else? He also needs to plan his character and equip setup, since this will affect the "sufficient THAC0" - a character who cannot get to grandmastery and whose weapon of choice is a +4 weapon (e.g. FoA +4 or Answerer +4) will obviously have a harder time getting the "sufficient THAC0" than a character with grandmastery and whose weapon of choice is a +5 weapon. Every player has to exercise his own judgment call on this matter, hence it was impossible for me to give a specific number that you asked for that is applicable to all players.
Apologies to OP for derailing the post. But now that there is some common understanding, please take over the reins again.
I played an elf-lady once who was a fighter and a wizard at the same time! But what she did was casting some useful protection spells and fightering most of the time.
Comments
Meme inspired by @badbromance
Personally I don't like dual classes but I figured I'd still point that out.
The twist is, it's a keepered multiclass Kensai/Mage (so I guess I picked the wrong poll option).
He did accept the gifts offered to him eventually...
For starters, I define high-level duals as above L13. Typically, L17/25, L19/24, L21/22 for Fighter/Mages. I also consider the character in the presence of a supportive party with access to both mage and priest spells. If you are talking about solo play or duals lower than L17, I need not discuss further since I have already acknowledged that the Berserker/Mage is superior in those circumstances.
1.1. The Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization are overrated in your comparison. A Kensai can reach 5APR with weapon grandmastery and a +1 APR weapon. Granted, it restricts the Kensai's choice of weapons, but in terms of raw brute strength, a high-level Berserker will still lose to a high-level Kensai, except for relatively uncommon circumstances that I will not describe further here.
1.2. You also need to consider that if a character is using the gauntlets, it cannot then be used by another, say Sarevok or anyone who is also well-positioned to make good use of it (e.g. a warrior equipped with a special effect damage weapon like Ravager, Carsomyr). If you have a Berserker/Mage with 5APR with gauntlets, and another good fighter with 3APR, you can swap the gauntlets for a Berserker/Mage with 4.5APR and another good fighter with 3.5APR - no loss of total APR and hence the difference in overall party effectiveness is slight, if at all.
2. Advantage Berserker/Mage because to make a Kensai/Mage more worthwhile than a Berserker/Mage, the player has to wait for longer. The Berserker/Mage is good to go at a lower level and has an easier time recovering his abilities.
3. Why use something else when PfMW does it best? Between weapons, support casters, and personal spell protections, you already have just about all the protections you need. Unless you are going solo, which requires different considerations for character build and spell selection, I do not see why you must have the Fighter/Mage cast his own protections.
I'm sure you can come up with better arguments than what you had previously posted. Fire away
Why should I ever consider to dual-class at 17? It's madness. o.O
By the way yes, I was talking about solo or with all top items avaiable.
So yes technically even a Kensai/Mage dualed at level 13 will outdamage a berserker/mage. If you use Kai. Frankly though I prefer the fighter/illusionist multiclass.
That aside, a multi Fighter/Mage will outperform the dual Fighter/Mage more often than not, except if you go extreme XP farming for a Kensai/Mage, then the Kensai/Mage outstrips the multi Fighter/Mage in power. Even HLAs are not enough to help the multi Fighter/Mage:
1. Whirlwind/Greater Whirlwind - the Kensai can already reach 5APR as @elminster and I have noted. This is 10APR with Improved Haste
2. Deathblow/Greater Deathblow - nice abilities but not essential. The Kensai relies on superior damage to deal with monsters and bosses are generally immune to these anyway
3. Power Attack/Critical Strike/Smite - as a family of abilities, it is probably weaker than Deathblow/Greater Deathblow. Saves for TOB monsters are strong enough to reduce Power Attack to a flavor ability. Kensais already have superior THAC0 and many monsters have some form of helmet on so the double-damage does not kick in. Smite is a good niche ability, but IIRC it can only be selected once
4. Hardiness - I like this one but if I have to, I will simply use Stoneskin or Protection from Magical Weapons
5. War Cry - Eh... perhaps a devil's advocate can come in to wax lyrical about its awesomeness
On the other hand, the Kensai/Mage has combat bonuses and weapon grandmastery which translate into more damage. That he does not require gauntlets to boost damage frees up the gauntlets for use by another fighter in the party. We do not even need to talk about Kai here, which IMO is a limited-use, limited-duration ability that is rather irrelevant. As for spellcasting, the Illusionist is good but he loses out on a few nifty spell sequences like chain ADHW and Skull Trap.
The real problems of the Kensai/Mage compared to the multi Fighter/Mage are:
- Limited weapon/style selection. He has to take two-weapon style and use a +1APR weapon and put all (or nearly all) his proficiency points to his chosen weapons to reach the pinnacle of damage output. No ranged weapons for him either, unless he uses throwing weapons or the Big Metal Rod
- An excruciatingly long incubation period especially if you go to extremes for XP farming. I consider this the deal-breaker for the majority of players who dismiss the Kensai/Mage - dual at L9/L13 does not offer enough firepower, and dual at L17+ takes too long
- No room for flexibility and error. The Kensai/Mage needs a very specific build and setup to outshine his competitors in damage output. He cannot readily switch weapons for a different combat strategy - he is a melee damage specialist, not a melee generalist
To sum things up, all these are very strong characters: multi Fighter/Mage, Berserker/Mage and Kensai/Mage. I see this as the general pecking order of power:
high-level dual Kensai/Mage > multi Fighter/Mage = Berserker/Mage > Kensai/Mage
Not going to pick sides for multi Fighter/Mage and Berserker/Mage here - I prefer the multi but both characters have their followings. So, since most players I know will not go to extremes for XP farming, the pecking order is essentially reduced to:
multi Fighter/Mage = Berserker/Mage > Kensai/Mage
Anyway, the discussion of end-game power is mostly irrelevant since both dual and multi will obliterate anything in the game.
Anyway, once more this is largely irrelevant.
Your THAC0 - Target AC (including modifiers) = X, where X is the minimum number you need to roll on 1d20 in order to hit.
If your THAC0 is -10, even if your target has an AC of -12, you will be able to hit 95% of the time
-10 - (-12) = -10 + 12 = 2 on a roll of 1d20 (since 1 is critical miss)
You can actually answer your own question by checking your THAC0 and looking up monster AC values. The Kensai gets there easily because of his THAC0 bonuses.
Simply ask yourself, how good does your THAC0 get, and look up the creature source files for their AC values, do a few sums, and you will know how much you need.
L17 Kensai
Base THAC0: 4
Strength Bonus: -4 @22
Grandmastery: -3
Kensai bonus: -5
Weapon Bonus: -5 @+5 weapon
Final modified THAC0: 4-4-3-5-5=-13
In order to hit at 95% chance, the target must have an AC of -15 or worse.
Check the creature files and see for yourself how many monsters have -15 AC, and see the general AC range of the more potent monsters, and you will have your answer.
However, it is for this specific setup only. If for some reason you are using Crom Faeyr in your main hand, the THAC0 is boosted by 3 more points, then you can hit monsters with 95% chance even if they have -18 AC.
The numbers change based on equip setup, so expecting me to give a specific number that applies to all is not just unreasonable, but intellectually slothful.
A Berserker/Mage reaches 9 with a good one.
Also, against enemies immune to +2 weapon or less, the B/M is better.
@FinneousPJ to answer your question, considering that The Winged (from BP2) is the enemy with the best AC in the whole game (-17), a thac0 of -15 would be enough for everything.
THAC0 -15, AC -17: Minimum roll = -15 - (-17) = -15 + 17 = 2 or higher, since 1 is a critical miss anyway.
In the BG saga I think -12 is the best AC you can find (Demogorgon, some dragons, etc)
so here -10 would be enough, I guess.
Thanks for chiming in. I just have a little bit more to add.
I remember Ascension Abazigal has -18 AC. So the numbers may have to be adjusted. As and when there are new monsters with stronger AC, the numbers need to be adjusted again.
I also think the actual AC based on EE Keeper is lower than the real AC (I cannot confirm this though), since it is the AC applied before Dex bonuses.
Regardless, this is the "sufficient THAC0" reasoning I was driving at. Determine the strongest AC of the monsters against which you want 95% hit chance, then work on the THAC0. This will obviously change based on equip setup, stats, choice of monsters, and even mods.
Based on my old BG2 installation with Ascension, the figures were souped up. Improved Melissan and Fallen Solar had -14, Improved Demogorgon had -16, Improved Abazigal had -18. Mariliths had -13, balors -12. They might have had further AC modifiers from equips. A player who plays BG2 without Ascension should have an easier "sufficient THAC0" though.
In any case, the player must decide what is "sufficient" - is it to cover all non-bosses, all bosses, or something else? He also needs to plan his character and equip setup, since this will affect the "sufficient THAC0" - a character who cannot get to grandmastery and whose weapon of choice is a +4 weapon (e.g. FoA +4 or Answerer +4) will obviously have a harder time getting the "sufficient THAC0" than a character with grandmastery and whose weapon of choice is a +5 weapon. Every player has to exercise his own judgment call on this matter, hence it was impossible for me to give a specific number that you asked for that is applicable to all players.
Apologies to OP for derailing the post. But now that there is some common understanding, please take over the reins again.