I played an elf-lady once who was a fighter and a wizard at the same time! But what she did was casting some useful protection spells and fightering most of the time.
I think the real challenge for getting the most fun out of a Fighter/Mage is to mix in spellcasting during battle, which I would assume for most people is melee. You could theoretically use a bow or hurl darts, but there's something more satisfying about meleeing without armor and firing off spells in the midst of battle.
And if I were to go with ranged I would definitely dual-class, but again I do that at either Fighter 3 for BGEE and Fighter 7 for BG2EE.
No matter the THAC0 you have, there are 5% chances of making a critical miss with 1 APR, and with 10 APR, you have 50% of making one critical miss, so you'll be hitting only 9 times, but you can miss again, since there are 15% of missing another attack, and that if you are lucky, I once got 4 followed critical misses with 9 APR.
FinneousPJ to answer your question, considering that The Winged (from BP2) is the enemy with the best AC in the whole game (-17), a thac0 of -15 would be enough for everything. THAC0 -15, AC -17: Minimum roll = -15 - (-17) = -15 + 17 = 2 or higher, since 1 is a critical miss anyway.
In the BG saga I think -12 is the best AC you can find (Demogorgon, some dragons, etc) so here -10 would be enough, I guess.
No matter the THAC0 you have, there are 5% chances of making a critical miss with 1 APR, and with 10 APR, you have 50% of making one critical miss, so you'll be hitting only 9 times, but you can miss again, since there are 15% of missing another attack, and that if you are lucky, I once got 4 followed critical misses with 9 APR.
Your number is very off.
If the probability of a critical miss on any attack is 5%, the probability of having at least one critical miss out of 10 attacks is 1-(0.95)^10=0.40=40%
Conversely, the probability of making 10 hits out of 10 attacks (no misses at all) is 0.95^10=60%
No matter the THAC0 you have, there are 5% chances of making a critical miss with 1 APR, and with 10 APR, you have 50% of making one critical miss, so you'll be hitting only 9 times, but you can miss again, since there are 15% of missing another attack, and that if you are lucky, I once got 4 followed critical misses with 9 APR.
@CrevsDaak I'm sorry my young friend, but your math is flawed. The chance of missing at least once would be about 40 % and the chance of missing once is about 30 %.
If the probability of a critical miss on any attack is 5%, the probability of having at least one critical miss out of ten attacks is 1-(0.95)^10=0.40=40%
Conversely, the probability of making 10 consecutive hits (no misses at all) is 0.95^10=60%
Looks like the 5%x10 I used wasn't accurate, thanks for the correction! @FinneousPJ watch out, ninjas nearby.
Here's a simple explanation for you @CrevsDaak. A formula can be given without advanced mathematics by induction.
To calculate the chance of a singular attack missing, you must consider the combination of events, i.e. the combination of hits and misses. As a simple example, let's take 2 APR with 95 % hit chance. The chance of missing once is obviously a combination of missing once and hitting once:
P(miss once) = P(miss) * P(hit)
However, the order also matters; we must consider both first attack missing and the second attack missing, because these are different events. The above is actually only a single case, where the first attack misses. So,
@jacobtan Call me old fashioned but reading tables without understanding anything behind them is bad.
Okay, you are old-fashioned :P
Jokes aside, your inductive method works well for P(miss once), but it will become increasingly complicated as you try to calculate P for more misses. And I would like to think that between the both of us, we have enough statistics training to make life easy for @CrevsDaak
I like the generic all-roundedness of the Multi. Bows are a must for me---they just seem like second nature. Archery was a substantial element of my early teen years. My brother won several minor trophies in the sport during that time.
@jacobtan Yes, the reason I wanted to demonstrate it is that it should be easy to understand for a high school student, because no statistics is required.
@CrevsDaak I don't mean to insult your intelligence, I'm just saying you haven't had university statistics courses like I and other people here.
CrevsDaak I don't mean to insult your intelligence, I'm just saying you haven't had university statistics courses like I and other people here.
@FinneousPJ it's OK Also, my maths teacher from last year used the same system they use in france, they throw you the whole thing and let you make a bunch of excercises, and then start explaining, plus, I know a little about percentage calculations from last year, but, yeaah, seems like I a much better with other stuff ;P
Simple. I don't. Until I can play as a Dwarven Defender/Mage multi, I'm uninterested. Oh. And I want to do it as a half-orc as well. What can I say? I'm complicated.
Oh my god, it looks like you all are trying to provoke @CrevsDaak . Ok, he may have not made the best math calculations, but 10 posts about that are definitely too much. @CrevsDaak we got your point anyway, and we support you!!!
Oh my god, it looks like you all are trying to provoke @CrevsDaak . Ok, he may have not made the best math calculations, but 10 posts about that are definitely too much. @CrevsDaak we got your point anyway, and we support you!!!
Oh my god, it looks like you all are trying to provoke @CrevsDaak . Ok, he may have not made the best math calculations, but 10 posts about that are definitely too much. @CrevsDaak we got your point anyway, and we support you!!!
That's what you get for getting something wrong in front of an engineer and a statistician/mathematician. Muahahaha.
Anyway, jokes aside, @CrevsDaak, don't ever major in Mathematics or Statistics in the university unless you're really into those stuff. I'm still looking for some lost screws despite having graduated for several years.
Anyway, jokes aside, @CrevsDaak, don't ever major in Mathematics or Statistics in the university unless you're really into those stuff. I'm still looking for some lost screws despite having graduated for several years.
The only thing related to maths I really like is software coding (I started by editing BG, and now I am considering learning C), which some people don't even consider maths :P
I've only played the class once, when I was a fighter(6)/mage dual class. As many already know, I'm not a big powergamer, and didn't try to. I suppose one of the charms of the fighter/mage dual class is that - regardless of your stats - you kind of end up being fearsome anyway. Mine was a single-weapon style longsword wielder, and slew the majority of enemies from BG1 to ToB.
I assume the powerclass way to do it is with a Kensai, or Berserker, or some such, and to load up on the traditional 'super spells' to open combat. Personally, I enjoyed finally playing a class that could make use of the underpowered 'Shocking Grasp', 'Ghoul Touch' and 'Phantom Blade' spells, and their peers, as well as using the same tactic as @Calmar with a string of melee and magical protections. My fighter/mage was also FINALLY a mage worthy of the Cone of Cold spell. A waste of some really good powerbuilding opportunities? Perhaps. But there wasn't a fighter in the land with more style.
I have to say, I'm actually becoming very fond of the dual-classed Fighter/Transmuter I'm currently running. He's illegal, i.e., I used EE Keeper to assign the Transmuter kit after dualing to Mage. But in any event, I have him wielding a halberd and he's pretty fearsome. I've mentioned this recently in other threads and posts (probably ad nauseum by now, sorry), but I'm enjoying having him devote more than half of his spellbook slots to Alteration spells which is a wonderful school for a meleeing mage. In addition to just being fun, I think this self-imposed playstyle restriction balances out a specialist's extra spell slots (for a F/M).
I think I'll eventually try the same approach for some of the other Mage specialization schools. It might work well also for Necromancer, Conjurer, Invoker, Illusionist, and Enchanter.
As I have mentioned before, I will only dual-class a PC in a way that is relatively painless--i.e., F3 in BGEE and F7 in BG2EE.
But there is something just very satisfying to me about the combination of 1) either High Mastery (++++) in BGEE or Grand Mastery (+++++) in BG2EE for a meleeing mage, and 2) truly playing the character according to a specialization in the chosen school. This is actually turning out to be more fun (for me) than a vanilla multi-class F/M.
Edit: Ugh. I just tested a BG2 build and no way would I want to start at level 1as a Mage (of any stripe) in BG2 after immediately dual-classing a Fighter. It would take 90,000 XP to get the Fighter skills back. Despite the scaling of encounters to higher level play in BG2, I'm just not interested in taking that long to get the Fighter skills back. I would just import my current Fighter 3/Transmuter into BG2 and wait to gain Grand Mastery at Transmuter 12.
Eh, put the vote on the wrong thing. I like the vanilla dual-class best. Especially if I'm starting in BG1, since I hate level 1 wizards. I also like getting those five pips on a weapon which you can't do with a multi-classed combo. And I prefer to keep up with the single-classed party members.
Then I toss everyone out of my party once I reach Athkatla, and just sit there and memorize spells until I've brought my magecraft up to decent levels. I don't play kensais because I like elven chainmails for my multi-class mages. Not sure if it's actually better, but it's prettier, so whatever.
I just like kensai, because the whole Sword Saint idea is fun. I've only ever did the fighter/mage dual once, actually (my last playthrough, where I challenged myself to stick to no healer but, uh, dear Dorn). I think a berserker is probably more powerful, because rage immunities can't be beat, but I just plain like the concept of Kensai and, eh, a mage with enough power shouldn't be getting hit all that much anyway so the AC deal isn't the biggest thing in the world. Now, finishing BG1 with no armor or gauntlets isn't exactly easy mode, but we can't all be archers or blackguards, now can we?
I have to say, I'm actually becoming very fond of the dual-classed Fighter/Transmuter I'm currently running. He's illegal, i.e., I used EE Keeper to assign the Transmuter kit after dualing to Mage. But in any event, I have him wielding a halberd and he's pretty fearsome. I've mentioned this recently in other threads and posts (probably ad nauseum by now, sorry), but I'm enjoying having him devote more than half of his spellbook slots to Alteration spells which is a wonderful school for a meleeing mage. In addition to just being fun, I think this self-imposed playstyle restriction balances out a specialist's extra spell slots (for a F/M).
I think I'll eventually try the same approach for some of the other Mage specialization schools. It might work well also for Necromancer, Conjurer, Invoker, Illusionist, and Enchanter.
As I have mentioned before, I will only dual-class a PC in a way that is relatively painless--i.e., F3 in BGEE and F7 in BG2EE.
But there is something just very satisfying to me about the combination of 1) either High Mastery (++++) in BGEE or Grand Mastery (+++++) in BG2EE for a meleeing mage, and 2) truly playing the character according to a specialization in the chosen school. This is actually turning out to be more fun (for me) than a vanilla multi-class F/M.
Edit: Ugh. I just tested a BG2 build and no way would I want to start at level 1as a Mage (of any stripe) in BG2 after immediately dual-classing a Fighter. It would take 90,000 XP to get the Fighter skills back. Despite the scaling of encounters to higher level play in BG2, I'm just not interested in taking that long to get the Fighter skills back. I would just import my current Fighter 3/Transmuter into BG2 and wait to gain Grand Mastery at Transmuter 12.
The idea of playing a Fighter/Specialist Mage in which specialization is limited to one or two schools is interesting. The whole concept of Specialist Mage in DnD is a bit underwhelming. That seems in my Game-designer brain to be such a powerful concept that it ought to have far reaching effects which changes one's whole RP experience.
Edit: Ugh. I just tested a BG2 build and no way would I want to start at level 1as a Mage (of any stripe) in BG2 after immediately dual-classing a Fighter. It would take 90,000 XP to get the Fighter skills back. Despite the scaling of encounters to higher level play in BG2, I'm just not interested in taking that long to get the Fighter skills back. I would just import my current Fighter 3/Transmuter into BG2 and wait to gain Grand Mastery at Transmuter 12.
Are you serious? You can easily make that exp just by learning scrolls or illithium quest, dryads' acorns, delivering the stuffed bear to the ghost kid in the graveyard, etc...
Comments
And if I were to go with ranged I would definitely dual-class, but again I do that at either Fighter 3 for BGEE and Fighter 7 for BG2EE.
If the probability of a critical miss on any attack is 5%, the probability of having at least one critical miss out of 10 attacks is 1-(0.95)^10=0.40=40%
Conversely, the probability of making 10 hits out of 10 attacks (no misses at all) is 0.95^10=60%
@FinneousPJ watch out, ninjas nearby.
To calculate the chance of a singular attack missing, you must consider the combination of events, i.e. the combination of hits and misses. As a simple example, let's take 2 APR with 95 % hit chance. The chance of missing once is obviously a combination of missing once and hitting once:
P(miss once) = P(miss) * P(hit)
However, the order also matters; we must consider both first attack missing and the second attack missing, because these are different events. The above is actually only a single case, where the first attack misses. So,
P(first attack misses) = P(miss) * P(hit) = 0.05 * 0.95 = 0.0475
P(second attack misses) = P(hit) * P(miss) = 0.95 * 0.05 = 0.0475
And
P(miss once) = P(first attack misses) + P(second attack misses) = 2 * 0.0475 = 0.095
or 9.5 %.
Similarly for 3 APR we can see that
P(first attack misses) = P(miss) * P(hit) * P(hit) = 0.045125
P(second attack misses) = P(hit) * P(miss) * P(hit) = 0.045125
P(second attack misses) = P(hit) * P(hit) * P(miss) = 0.045125
P(miss once) = P(first attack misses) + P(second attack misses) + P(third attack misses) = 3 * 0.045125 = 0.135375
or about 14 %.
By mathematical induction we can see that for N APR,
P(miss once) = N * P(single attack misses) = N * P(miss) * P(hit) ^ (N-1)
Hence, for 10 APR
P(miss once) = 10 * 0.05 * 0.95 ^ 9 = 0.3151...
or about 32 %.
I have an easier option for you. Go look for "Binomial Distribution Table" online and read off it:
n = 10 (number of attacks)
p = 0.05 (% chance of critical miss)
r = desired number of critical misses
Sound off if you need help.
Jokes aside, your inductive method works well for P(miss once), but it will become increasingly complicated as you try to calculate P for more misses. And I would like to think that between the both of us, we have enough statistics training to make life easy for @CrevsDaak
For 10APR and 5% chance of missing per hit,
P(miss 0 times) = 59.9%
P(miss 1 time) = 31.5%
P(miss 2 times) = 7.5%
P(miss 3 times) = 1%
P(miss 4 times) = 0.1%
Probability of missing more than 4 times... is less than 0.1%.
@CrevsDaak I don't mean to insult your intelligence, I'm just saying you haven't had university statistics courses like I and other people here.
Also, my maths teacher from last year used the same system they use in france, they throw you the whole thing and let you make a bunch of excercises, and then start explaining, plus, I know a little about percentage calculations from last year, but, yeaah, seems like I a much better with other stuff ;P
Ok, he may have not made the best math calculations, but 10 posts about that are definitely too much.
@CrevsDaak we got your point anyway, and we support you!!!
Anyway, jokes aside, @CrevsDaak, don't ever major in Mathematics or Statistics in the university unless you're really into those stuff. I'm still looking for some lost screws despite having graduated for several years.
I assume the powerclass way to do it is with a Kensai, or Berserker, or some such, and to load up on the traditional 'super spells' to open combat. Personally, I enjoyed finally playing a class that could make use of the underpowered 'Shocking Grasp', 'Ghoul Touch' and 'Phantom Blade' spells, and their peers, as well as using the same tactic as @Calmar with a string of melee and magical protections. My fighter/mage was also FINALLY a mage worthy of the Cone of Cold spell. A waste of some really good powerbuilding opportunities? Perhaps. But there wasn't a fighter in the land with more style.
I think I'll eventually try the same approach for some of the other Mage specialization schools. It might work well also for Necromancer, Conjurer, Invoker, Illusionist, and Enchanter.
As I have mentioned before, I will only dual-class a PC in a way that is relatively painless--i.e., F3 in BGEE and F7 in BG2EE.
But there is something just very satisfying to me about the combination of 1) either High Mastery (++++) in BGEE or Grand Mastery (+++++) in BG2EE for a meleeing mage, and 2) truly playing the character according to a specialization in the chosen school. This is actually turning out to be more fun (for me) than a vanilla multi-class F/M.
Edit: Ugh. I just tested a BG2 build and no way would I want to start at level 1as a Mage (of any stripe) in BG2 after immediately dual-classing a Fighter. It would take 90,000 XP to get the Fighter skills back. Despite the scaling of encounters to higher level play in BG2, I'm just not interested in taking that long to get the Fighter skills back. I would just import my current Fighter 3/Transmuter into BG2 and wait to gain Grand Mastery at Transmuter 12.
Then I toss everyone out of my party once I reach Athkatla, and just sit there and memorize spells until I've brought my magecraft up to decent levels. I don't play kensais because I like elven chainmails for my multi-class mages. Not sure if it's actually better, but it's prettier, so whatever.
You can easily make that exp just by learning scrolls or illithium quest, dryads' acorns, delivering the stuffed bear to the ghost kid in the graveyard, etc...