i have 100 points in pickpocket and yet it say the target has nothing that can be stolen by my thief! shall i raise this skill higher that 100? if yes, how much? and btw how many points i need in pickpocket, lockpick and findtraps to be able to pickpocket everybody, unlock every lock and disable every trap in the game?
If you're unable to pick pocket the axe, it's in the NPCs weapon slot, and cannot be pick pocketed at all.
Only weapons in an NPCs inventory can be snagged.
So, the only other option is to kill the dwarf.
As for your query on thief skills, here is the break down for you:
95 Pickpocket is required for weapons not in a weapon slot.
Worn items require 80 Pickpocket.
You cannot Pickpocket worn Armour, Helmets, Boots or Shields.
60 Pickpocket is required for worn rings.
50 Pickpocket is required for ammunition and misc. items.
10 Pickpocket is required for inventory items.
I've no clue on find traps or pick lock, but my assumption would be 120% in those. Some traps and locks are unable to be opened or disarmed regardless of %. I do not know what locks, doors or traps those are.
too bad that i cant have this item without murdering that guy. thanks for the info. still want to know what is max needed point in lock pick and find traps.
The stealth is equal to (HiS+MS)/2. You should additionally halve your overall stealth average in daylight and multiply by 0.7 for lighted indoor areas. Shadows in either and night-time outdoors have full stealth efficiency.
E.g.: you have 100 in MS and 100 in HiS. In this situation in daylight you'll only get 50% chance to hide.
So, if you want to make a completely good backstabber, it's better to invest points to MS/HiS even after you get 100.
BTW, between the two abilities it's MS and not HiS that is needed to maintain the stealth-mode (i.e. the time you're unseen is based on MS and the chance of hiding is based on the sum of MS+HIS/2 and light modifiers), so from a powergaming POV it's better to have 190 points in MS and only 10 in HiS.
Also, there will always be a minimum 1% chance to fail under all circumstances.
In order to successfully hide 99% of the time no matter the environemental conditions requires a total of 400 points into HiS or MS as the most significant penalty for hiding is attempting to hide during the day outside of the shadows which incurs a 50% penalty: is 255 in MS and 145 in HiS for 400 points total which should provide a 99% success rate in all environmental conditions.
@bengoshi Oh true, that is what I would like to call a 'hard cap' benefit to putting more in MS+HiS. I personally don't for RP purposes. I still reach 99% during the day with 100/100 by hiding in a shadow. And I like the chance for error in a lit outdoors/interior because that's just realistic. The only being IMO that should be able to hide that well (200/200) is a Shadow Dancer, which uses supernatural means to achieve that skill.
I'll edit my post because you are indeed right, there is a benefit to 200/200 MS/HiS. I was basing it off how I played
BTW, between the two abilities it's MS and not HiS that is needed to maintain the stealth-mode (i.e. the time you're unseen is based on MS and the chance of hiding is based on the sum of MS+HIS/2 and light modifiers), so from a powergaming POV it's better to have 190 points in MS and only 10 in HiS.
This is actually a myth. I scoured the nets awhile back on this subject. Someone in a thread did extensive testing and found no actual benefit to MS vs HiS. They both do exactly the same thing.
The only thing about people claiming that MS works differently from HiS, is that they aren't providing any empirical evidence to back it up. NExUS1g was the only one to provide numbers in his thesis, which didn't touch on the difference between MS/HiS. He later speculated that MS worked differently but didn't offer any new tests for it.
I took the liberty to do some testing real quick, (for the first time, I've always taken peoples word)
BG:EE I've made a Lvl 1 character edited with EEKeeper to 200/20 HiS/MS: Hid during night, spawned hostile ogre nearby, ended test after 20 consecutive successful hides while standing next to Ogre (1 iteration). Became visible immediately after a failed backstab (5 iterations)
Character with 20/200 HiS/MS: Hid during night, spawned hostile ogre nearby, ended test after 20 consecutive successful hides while standing next to Ogre (1 iteration). Became visible immediately after a failed backstab (5 iterations)
Character with 200/200 (for good measure) Same exact results as last two tests.
Didn't observe longer duration of stealthings between the MS/HiS differences: Initial stealth lasted ~17 seconds, subsequent stealth checks occurred ~20 seconds after. This pattern was consistent with all MS/HiS variations.
I remember retaining stealth after missing an attack the last time I tried to backstab in previous games, so not sure why I'm not seeing it anymore more in my tests. Unless there is something wrong with how I'm doing this test, there is no clear indication that MS/HiS work differently.
Going to come back later with my results for BGII:EE
Ok, I've tested one more myth, that you stay hidden longer when leaving shadows the more MS you have.
Same setup: HiS/MS 200/20 20/200 200/200
Tested all variations by opening a door immediately after using stealth. All variations ended with the same result of maintaining stealth for ~19 seconds, which coincides with the internal stealth check timer. Also, for good measure, I opened the door at 15 seconds of stealth, and each variation only lasted ~4 seconds before reappearing. MS doesn't appear to be affecting anything at all. So I think it's safe to say I've busted it right here.
This test I've done is very similar to one I've seen on a forum awhile back debunking MS. Couldn't find it again (there are a lot HiS/MS threads) but I've just done my own test so I'm satisfied.
I'm going to assume that this works the same way with BGII, so I wont bother with testing it, unless you really want me to. Also, the odd behavior of my test popping out of stealth right after failing a backstab is odd, and I theorize it might have something to do with your APR (or SCS/aTweaks). Not going to bother testing that either unless you really want me to. For now I'm convinced that MS doesn't do anything special until I see some real proof.
guys thanks for explanations. ------------------------------ this one question remains: how much point i need in pickpocket to be able to pick everyone's pocket without using any potion?
and a new question: i dont understand purpose of the message which say that my thief's skill is not enough!!! as i undertand, if a thief have enough skill, then he can successfully pickpocked his target, otherwise failes and target becomes red and we have to fight the target. and we get this message whenever we try to pickpocket someone who have nothing stealable. am i wrong? what is purpose of this message?
After the 1.2 patch for BG:EE and in BG2:EE the mechanics of Pick Pocketing has been changed.
The new pick pockets minimum requirements were introduced as @Sylvus_Moonbow has previously said:
General Inventory: 10 Quick Items: 50 Ammunition: 50 Rings: 60 Amulets, Cloaks, Gauntlets, Belts: 80 Weapons: 95 Armor, boots, helmets, and shields cannot be pick-pocketed if they're equipped.
So, in order to be able to steal something you should have the needed amount of points in this skill depending on the type of item you're stealing. You have to achieve these numbers any way available, including using potions.
From my experience the "target has no items that can be stolen by a cut-purse of your skill" message can mean not only that your skill is low for some of target's items but also that a target has no items that can be stolen at all. Maybe it's not the most accurate phrase but we can't do anything about it.
If you're unable to pick pocket the axe, it's in the NPCs weapon slot, and cannot be pick pocketed at all.
Only weapons in an NPCs inventory can be snagged.
...
95 Pickpocket is required for weapons not in a weapon slot.
From a practical standpoint you can't pick pocket many weapons in the game. However, if an npc has a weapon in their slots that they aren't currently using (like Drizzt and his swords prior to version 1.3) you can pickpocket those if you have 95. Another example is that sometimes guards will have a secondary ranged weapon that you can take (because they aren't currently using it). Anyways the 95 only concerns weapons located in the weapon slot. Weapons located in an npcs general inventory should only need 10.
so 95 pint in pickpocket warranty that i can ALWAYS steal all the the items off everyone that can be stolen in the game?
and also if i get "target has no items that can be stolen by a cut-purse of your skill" message while my thief have 95 point in pickpocket, does it mean that my target absolutely have nothing that can be stolen at all?
There is a bit of randomness to whether or not you succeed, but the 95 is just the minimum threshold for if you even get that chance.
Yes if you see that "cutpurse of your skill" message and you have 95 points it means that there is nothing you can steal from them (the exception to this would be the few merchants whose store inventories you can also steal from).
People with the thief class seem to apply a massive penalty to your pick pocket skill. Ever try to pickpocket Gaylan Bael? Coo! That is near impossible!
@tresset "People with the thief class seem to apply a massive penalty to your pick pocket skill." what? i dont understand what you are saying! care to explain?
Well, at least in BG2, when you try to pickpocket rogues (i.e bards and thieves) you can have well over 100 skill points in pick pockets and still fail regularly. In order to succeed regularly at picking Gaylan (a thief) it seems like I need at least 200 in pick pockets for some reason. I only assume that this is because he is a skilled pick pocket himself...
There is a bit of randomness to whether or not you succeed, but the 95 is just the minimum threshold for if you even get that chance.
Yes if you see that "cutpurse of your skill" message and you have 95 points it means that there is nothing you can steal from them (the exception to this would be the few merchants whose store inventories you can also steal from).
BTW, between the two abilities it's MS and not HiS that is needed to maintain the stealth-mode (i.e. the time you're unseen is based on MS and the chance of hiding is based on the sum of MS+HIS/2 and light modifiers), so from a powergaming POV it's better to have 190 points in MS and only 10 in HiS.
According to Dee in another thread an average of Hide in Shadows and Move Silently is used when initially trying to hide, while all checks to maintain stealth afterwards are based on Move Silently alone.
What that means is that you should put all your points in Move Silently.
EDIT: grammar
Full disclosure--I was going from memory when I said that. We've since looked at the actual code, and it always averages the two together.
This from @FinaLfront back in May works, with a couple of caveats:
FinaLfrontFinaLfront Posts: 237
May 19 edited May 19
@jahes64 this is the correct caping of the thief skills:
Pickpocket-infinite Hide in Shadows-100/200 (soft/hard cap) Move Silently-100/200 (soft/hard cap) Open Locks-100 Disarm Traps-100 Set Trap-100 Detect Illusions-100
Going passed 100 in any skill except pick pocket is a complete waste.
Post edited by FinaLfront on May 19
Caveats: 1) Read the next few posts after that for a detailed discussion of Hide in Shadows & Move Silently. Bottom line: As long as you aren't trying to fade out in broad daylight/ballroom lighting, 200 points between the two (including any item/potion bonuses) is plenty sufficient. 2) Open Locks & Find/Disarm Traps - 100 is the max effective number in each of these. However, there are so few locks/traps at the highest end that if you are 75 in each, with a couple of thief-type potions in the pack for the hardest stuff, you should be fine. 1 or 2 of the very hardest traps may not disarm even with 100 F/DT, but those generally have a lower detect rating, so you have a chance to try them, fail to disarm, then plan for the safest way to trip them. 3) Set Trap and Detect Illusions - 100 is the highest effective value, a near guarantee. but remember that everything in this game is subject to at least a 1% critical fail. 4) Thief potions are your friend for those times when you can't afford to try again. 5) If you are going to go for a truly unassisted maxed out skill in one of these, make it Find & Disarm Traps. There are other ways to do everything else, except disarm traps.
2) Open Locks & Find/Disarm Traps - 100 is the max effective number in each of these. However, there are so few locks/traps at the highest end that if you are 75 in each, with a couple of thief-type potions in the pack for the hardest stuff, you should be fine. 1 or 2 of the very hardest traps may not disarm even with 100 F/DT, but those generally have a lower detect rating, so you have a chance to try them, fail to disarm, then plan for the safest way to trip them.
How much point do i need in these skills to be able to disable every trap and open every lock in BG2EE *without* using any potion?
BTW, detecting hidden doors are dependent on "Detect Illision" skill?
Are there any hidden doors in BG? I know there are a few in BG2, but mainly they reveal themselves as part of the plot or through some action rather than being detected.
Are there any hidden doors in BG? I know there are a few in BG2, but mainly they reveal themselves as part of the plot or through some action rather than being detected.
Yea there are a few. Gullykin (temple and one of the homes) has a few.
There were some in Cloakwoods too. If you are detecting traps iirc, you automatically find any secret doors. Otherwise hope you brought elves maybe, they have the best odds to find them iirc.
Comments
shall i raise this skill higher that 100?
if yes, how much?
and btw how many points i need in pickpocket, lockpick and findtraps to be able to pickpocket everybody, unlock every lock and disable every trap in the game?
Only weapons in an NPCs inventory can be snagged.
So, the only other option is to kill the dwarf.
As for your query on thief skills, here is the break down for you:
95 Pickpocket is required for weapons not in a weapon slot.
Worn items require 80 Pickpocket.
You cannot Pickpocket worn Armour, Helmets, Boots or Shields.
60 Pickpocket is required for worn rings.
50 Pickpocket is required for ammunition and misc. items.
10 Pickpocket is required for inventory items.
I've no clue on find traps or pick lock, but my assumption would be 120% in those. Some traps and locks are unable to be opened or disarmed regardless of %. I do not know what locks, doors or traps those are.
thanks for the info.
still want to know what is max needed point in lock pick and find traps.
Pickpocket-infinite
Hide in Shadows-100/200 (soft/hard cap)
Move Silently-100/200 (soft/hard cap)
Open Locks-100
Disarm Traps-100
Set Trap-100
Detect Illusions-100
Going passed 100 in any skill except pick pocket is a complete waste.
Sorry, but it is not precisely true.
The stealth is equal to (HiS+MS)/2. You should additionally halve your overall stealth average in daylight and multiply by 0.7 for lighted indoor areas. Shadows in either and night-time outdoors have full stealth efficiency.
E.g.: you have 100 in MS and 100 in HiS. In this situation in daylight you'll only get 50% chance to hide.
So, if you want to make a completely good backstabber, it's better to invest points to MS/HiS even after you get 100.
BTW, between the two abilities it's MS and not HiS that is needed to maintain the stealth-mode (i.e. the time you're unseen is based on MS and the chance of hiding is based on the sum of MS+HIS/2 and light modifiers), so from a powergaming POV it's better to have 190 points in MS and only 10 in HiS.
Also, there will always be a minimum 1% chance to fail under all circumstances.
In order to successfully hide 99% of the time no matter the environemental conditions requires a total of 400 points into HiS or MS as the most significant penalty for hiding is attempting to hide during the day outside of the shadows which incurs a 50% penalty: is 255 in MS and 145 in HiS for 400 points total which should provide a 99% success rate in all environmental conditions.
I'll edit my post because you are indeed right, there is a benefit to 200/200 MS/HiS. I was basing it off how I played
One more thing This is actually a myth. I scoured the nets awhile back on this subject. Someone in a thread did extensive testing and found no actual benefit to MS vs HiS. They both do exactly the same thing.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/11879/move-silently-usefull
http://forum.bioware.com/topic/357939-thesis-hide-in-shadows/
I took the liberty to do some testing real quick, (for the first time, I've always taken peoples word)
BG:EE
I've made a Lvl 1 character edited with EEKeeper to 200/20 HiS/MS:
Hid during night, spawned hostile ogre nearby, ended test after 20 consecutive successful hides while standing next to Ogre (1 iteration). Became visible immediately after a failed backstab (5 iterations)
Character with 20/200 HiS/MS:
Hid during night, spawned hostile ogre nearby, ended test after 20 consecutive successful hides while standing next to Ogre (1 iteration). Became visible immediately after a failed backstab (5 iterations)
Character with 200/200 (for good measure)
Same exact results as last two tests.
Didn't observe longer duration of stealthings between the MS/HiS differences:
Initial stealth lasted ~17 seconds, subsequent stealth checks occurred ~20 seconds after. This pattern was consistent with all MS/HiS variations.
I remember retaining stealth after missing an attack the last time I tried to backstab in previous games, so not sure why I'm not seeing it anymore more in my tests. Unless there is something wrong with how I'm doing this test, there is no clear indication that MS/HiS work differently.
Going to come back later with my results for BGII:EE
Same setup:
HiS/MS
200/20
20/200
200/200
Tested all variations by opening a door immediately after using stealth. All variations ended with the same result of maintaining stealth for ~19 seconds, which coincides with the internal stealth check timer. Also, for good measure, I opened the door at 15 seconds of stealth, and each variation only lasted ~4 seconds before reappearing. MS doesn't appear to be affecting anything at all. So I think it's safe to say I've busted it right here.
This test I've done is very similar to one I've seen on a forum awhile back debunking MS. Couldn't find it again (there are a lot HiS/MS threads) but I've just done my own test so I'm satisfied.
I'm going to assume that this works the same way with BGII, so I wont bother with testing it, unless you really want me to. Also, the odd behavior of my test popping out of stealth right after failing a backstab is odd, and I theorize it might have something to do with your APR (or SCS/aTweaks). Not going to bother testing that either unless you really want me to. For now I'm convinced that MS doesn't do anything special until I see some real proof.
------------------------------
this one question remains:
how much point i need in pickpocket to be able to pick everyone's pocket without using any potion?
and a new question:
i dont understand purpose of the message which say that my thief's skill is not enough!!!
as i undertand, if a thief have enough skill, then he can successfully pickpocked his target, otherwise failes and target becomes red and we have to fight the target. and we get this message whenever we try to pickpocket someone who have nothing stealable.
am i wrong?
what is purpose of this message?
After the 1.2 patch for BG:EE and in BG2:EE the mechanics of Pick Pocketing has been changed.
The new pick pockets minimum requirements were introduced as @Sylvus_Moonbow has previously said:
General Inventory: 10
Quick Items: 50
Ammunition: 50
Rings: 60
Amulets, Cloaks, Gauntlets, Belts: 80
Weapons: 95
Armor, boots, helmets, and shields cannot be pick-pocketed if they're equipped.
So, in order to be able to steal something you should have the needed amount of points in this skill depending on the type of item you're stealing. You have to achieve these numbers any way available, including using potions.
From my experience the "target has no items that can be stolen by a cut-purse of your skill" message can mean not only that your skill is low for some of target's items but also that a target has no items that can be stolen at all. Maybe it's not the most accurate phrase but we can't do anything about it.
and also if i get "target has no items that can be stolen by a cut-purse of your skill" message while my thief have 95 point in pickpocket, does it mean that my target absolutely have nothing that can be stolen at all?
Yes if you see that "cutpurse of your skill" message and you have 95 points it means that there is nothing you can steal from them (the exception to this would be the few merchants whose store inventories you can also steal from).
"People with the thief class seem to apply a massive penalty to your pick pocket skill."
what? i dont understand what you are saying! care to explain?
I also think that regardless of how high your pick pocket skill is you still have a 1-5% chance (not sure exactly) of failing to pick a pocket.
FinaLfrontFinaLfront Posts: 237
May 19 edited May 19
@jahes64 this is the correct caping of the thief skills:
Pickpocket-infinite
Hide in Shadows-100/200 (soft/hard cap)
Move Silently-100/200 (soft/hard cap)
Open Locks-100
Disarm Traps-100
Set Trap-100
Detect Illusions-100
Going passed 100 in any skill except pick pocket is a complete waste.
Post edited by FinaLfront on May 19
Caveats:
1) Read the next few posts after that for a detailed discussion of Hide in Shadows & Move Silently. Bottom line: As long as you aren't trying to fade out in broad daylight/ballroom lighting, 200 points between the two (including any item/potion bonuses) is plenty sufficient.
2) Open Locks & Find/Disarm Traps - 100 is the max effective number in each of these. However, there are so few locks/traps at the highest end that if you are 75 in each, with a couple of thief-type potions in the pack for the hardest stuff, you should be fine. 1 or 2 of the very hardest traps may not disarm even with 100 F/DT, but those generally have a lower detect rating, so you have a chance to try them, fail to disarm, then plan for the safest way to trip them.
3) Set Trap and Detect Illusions - 100 is the highest effective value, a near guarantee. but remember that everything in this game is subject to at least a 1% critical fail.
4) Thief potions are your friend for those times when you can't afford to try again.
5) If you are going to go for a truly unassisted maxed out skill in one of these, make it Find & Disarm Traps. There are other ways to do everything else, except disarm traps.
BTW, detecting hidden doors are dependent on "Detect Illision" skill?