Bit of a strange question, I know, but do glasses (as in for one's eyes) exist in the forgotten realms? I'm working on a heavily role-played play-through and I was about to describe Phlydia as having glasses...
@Elrandir (Jansen Spectroscopes) :P As to regular ol' eyeglasses, I'm not sure, but I can definitely justify them existing in a world so rife with magic.
Haha Well I was aware of the spectroscopes, but I suppose it's likely that regular eyeglasses do as well. I did a little research myself, and it seems like they probably do exist within the Forgotten Realms.
I'm currently doing my first solo run with an elven FMT (first time with this class combo too), and I'm just about to pass 3m XP and therefore to get HLAs. My questions: 1) With the wide variety of already usable items, is there any point me taking UAI? (I'm dual-wielding, so not interested in Carsomyr) 2) Should I be able to access any Mage HLAs? (I know the spell ones are out of my casting ability, but what about the extra spell slots?)
Is there a site where BG fans can submit their own versions of various dialogue exchanges?? Or propose dialogues that could occur if a non-recruitable NPC is Charmed...
I'm currently doing my first solo run with an elven FMT (first time with this class combo too), and I'm just about to pass 3m XP and therefore to get HLAs. My questions: 1) With the wide variety of already usable items, is there any point me taking UAI? (I'm dual-wielding, so not interested in Carsomyr) 2) Should I be able to access any Mage HLAs? (I know the spell ones are out of my casting ability, but what about the extra spell slots?)
In the same scenario, what would be the best use of Contingency? Dispel Magic on self when immobilised?
This is a good idea. I've asked too many questions already since I've been here and I don't want to clutter up the GQ thread any more than it already is.
I'm currently doing my first solo run with an elven FMT (first time with this class combo too), and I'm just about to pass 3m XP and therefore to get HLAs. My questions: 1) With the wide variety of already usable items, is there any point me taking UAI? (I'm dual-wielding, so not interested in Carsomyr) 2) Should I be able to access any Mage HLAs? (I know the spell ones are out of my casting ability, but what about the extra spell slots?)
With UAI you can use the scarlet ninja-to. Its a +3 weapon (that grants an APR boost) that is normally only usable by monks.
I don't think you can get any of the mage HLA's (including the spell slots). At least not without a mod.
@elminster Many thanks, I was aware of the Scarlet Ninja-to, but I'm specked for short & long swords (call it an elf thing ), so I'm pretty happy with Kundane. I guess many the bardic gloves (for extra spell slots), or Montolio's Cloak could also be handy, but they seem fairly minor boosts compared to another GWW or Spike Trap.
Why would anyone play a Paladin (not counting Blackguard) when they can play a Cleric? Here are the reasons why this makes no sense to me (maybe someone more experienced knows something I don't):
1. Exceptional strength is meaningless. A cleric that starts w/ 18 str can raise it to 19 w/ the manual of Gainful Exercise effectively rendering exceptional strength MOOT.
2. The fewer pips (as a non-warrior) is mitigated by the fact that Paladins cannot master any weapon, and you are only ever going to focus on one or two weapons, anyway.
3. The saving throw bonus is pointless. The Cleric has more spells and better spells, and can easily make up for that and still have way more spells leftover.
4. Can only use blunt weapons. Boohoo. Flail of the Ages is what's you're going to want, anyway, and lack of a pip is easily mitigated by the high level buffs that Pallys only WISHED they had.
The extra hitpoints (thanks to the higher constitution) and weapon specialization are the only real benefit I can see, but better bonuses can be obtained by a high-Wisdom Cleric with more than enough Spells left to cast.
Clerics can:
1. Cast WAY more spells.
3. Cast higher level spells.
2. Turn undead way better.
4. Wear plate and helm!
Clerics have so many freaking spells that anything it lacks over a Paladin is easily made up for and then some by tons and tons of buffs, and the Cleric still would have plenty of spells leftover to eat the Paladin for breakfast.
I see no reason to play a Paladin when a person play a Cleric. Maybe I am missing something.
Edit:
Also, you have to be human to be a Paladin, which stinks. You can be an elven Cleric.
Lastly, You can roll a human and dual-class into a Cleric at 13 and you will have 8 pips by the time you dual and you will still be able to get to where you have 5 lvl 7 spells.
Elvin Cleric, Fighter/Cleric multi or (especially) Human Fighter/Cleric dual seems to me eats the Paladin for breakfast.
To me the Paladin seems built for a noob.
I am not as experienced as some of you and I hope maybe someone can shed some light on this because I really love the Paladin concept but I see no real reason to play one.
Why would anyone play a Paladin (not counting Blackguard) when they can play a Cleric? Here are the reasons why this makes no sense to me (maybe someone more experienced knows something I don't):
1. Exceptional strength is meaningless. A cleric that starts w/ 18 str can raise it to 19 w/ the manual of Gainful Exercise effectively rendering exceptional strength MOOT.
2. The fewer pips (as a non-warrior) is mitigated by the fact that Paladins cannot master any weapon, and you are only ever going to focus on one or two weapons, anyway.
3. The saving throw bonus is pointless. The Cleric has more spells and better spells, and can easily make up for that and still have way more spells leftover.
4. Can only use blunt weapons. Boohoo. Flail of the Ages is what's you're going to want, anyway, and lack of a pip is easily mitigated by the high level buffs that Pallys only WISHED they had.
The extra hitpoints (thanks to the higher constitution) and weapon specialization are the only real benefit I can see, but better bonuses can be obtained by a high-Wisdom Cleric with more than enough Spells left to cast.
Clerics can:
1. Cast WAY more spells.
3. Cast higher level spells.
2. Turn undead way better.
4. Wear plate and helm!
Clerics have so many freaking spells that anything it lacks over a Paladin is easily made up for and then some by tons and tons of buffs, and the Cleric still would have plenty of spells leftover to eat the Paladin for breakfast.
I see no reason to play a Paladin when a person play a Cleric. Maybe I am missing something.
Edit:
Also, you have to be human to be a Paladin, which stinks. You can be an elven Cleric.
Lastly, You can roll a human and dual-class into a Cleric at 13 and you will have 8 pips by the time you dual and you will still be able to get to where you have 5 lvl 7 spells.
Elvin Cleric, Fighter/Cleric multi or (especially) Human Fighter/Cleric dual seems to me eats the Paladin for breakfast.
To me the Paladin seems built for a noob.
I am not as experienced as some of you and I hope maybe someone can shed some light on this because I really love the Paladin concept but I see no real reason to play one.
I love Paladins... But mostly for flavour. Mechanically the kits have useful resistances and abilities... in particular the Inquistor's insta-cast True Sight and epic Dispel level are really powerful in a game rammed with powerful magic users. But it's mostly taste... Any class/kit can be powerful if used right.
@Stormvessel Well to mention one useful trait; THAC0. The paladin WILL outdo the cleric in melee combat. So the question is, do you want a character that is excellent in melee and can do some casting, or do you want a character who is far superior at casting. Now if you say Fighter/Cleric, then I can start to see how the paladin crumbles. But against a single class unkitted cleric? They're each useful. Especially when you bring the pally's kits into the picture.
Thanks for answering guys. I can see how Paladins are about flavour. I will mention that True Sight and Dispel are both Divine spells so the Cleric can cast them, too. And for the Inquisitor to get Dispel he has to give up Divine Spells (no DUHM) which makes them a horrible kit IMO. A good thief can negate the need for True Sight. In a full party the Inquisitor's abilities are redundant.
@Stormvessel Well to mention one useful trait; THAC0. The paladin WILL outdo the cleric in melee combat. So the question is, do you want a character that is excellent in melee and can do some casting, or do you want a character who is far superior at casting. Now if you say Fighter/Cleric, then I can start to see how the paladin crumbles. But against a single class unkitted cleric? They're each useful. Especially when you bring the pally's kits into the picture.
Even with a superior thac0, that is more than made up for by casting Champions Strength which grants exceptional Str (18/00) and raises Thac0 by 1 for every 3 levels. Draw upon Holy Might (which can be admittedly cast by either but Clerics can cast it WAY more) raises your Strength by a large amount which brings it's own bonuses to thac0 (though it can't be used w/ Champions Strength for obvious reasons).
I guess it comes down to flavour. I really, really want to play a Paladin but I am stuck in the powergaming rut where I have to know the logic of a class before I can play it.
Edit: Priests of Lathander can use Boon of Lathander...it just keeps getting worse for the Paladin as far as I can tell.
Paladin can use speed weapons (kundane and belm) or even useful two handed swords like Carsomyr.
Pure cleric can't get more than basic proficiency in a weapon. They also won't get improved APR at levels 7 and 13 (which a paladin gets).
Paladins get warrior HLA's, which are generally a lot better than the clerics. Paladins for instance can get 9-10 APR with Critical Strike active, meaning that every one of their attacks hits in that round. They also still get summon deva (or fallen deva in the case of blackguards).
I don't think there is any doubt that clerics are the better casters, but generally paladin are better up close (and with ranged weapons since they get more options when it comes to ranged weapons).
@Stormvessel Well to mention one useful trait; THAC0. The paladin WILL outdo the cleric in melee combat.
What makes the difference is APR, not THAC0. Clerics can get their THAC0 even lower than Fighters in BG1 (where it matters the most) but they can very hardly increase their APR (unless they are Priests of Lathander).
...Pure cleric can't get more than basic proficiency in a weapon. They also won't get improved APR at levels 7 and 13 (which a paladin gets).
Paladins get warrior HLA's, which are generally a lot better than the clerics. Paladins for instance can get 9-10 APR with Critical Strike active, meaning that every one of their attacks hits in that round. They also still get summon deva (or fallen deva in the case of blackguards).
I don't think there is any doubt that clerics are the better casters, but generally paladin are better up close (and with ranged weapons since they get more options when it comes to ranged weapons).
I can see your point. And I swear this is my last question. I am not trying to be argumentive I just really want to play a Pally and have to get these things worked out before I can bring myself to do it.
Considering that by level cap a Cleric can cast a whopping 60 divine spells compared to a Paladin's 20, it seems to me that anything the Cleric lacks is mitigated and then some. I think of all the bonuses a Paladin has, many of which you just named, and then I think of the 40 extra spells the Cleric has as well as the ability to wear Plate (like the Cleric) and wield FotA, and I think those 40 extra spells (22 are level 5 and up) would provide enough buffing to more than make up for anything the Cleric lacks, with enough leftover to make the Cleric a sure winner.
And then I think about a human dualed to Cleric. He can dual at 13 and if I'm not mistaken still hit level 32 as a Cleric. So if I'm planning on playing through the whole saga as a Pally (which I want to do) I can't help but feel handicapped in the long run. And only playing BGEE I feel it's pointless considering I only get 1 measly lvl 1 spell and only one measly 1/2 attack when all is said and done.
Meh, I am beating a dead horse now. Thanks for all the input guys. If anyone can come up with a reason to play a Paladin from a powergaming perspective, I am all ears.
@Stormvessel If you really can't justify playing a paladin, then play as a fighter/cleric multi. It makes more sense from a role-playing standpoint as well. Charname wouldn't have been able to become an "official" paladin, but he could've trained the required skills.
@Stormvessel Inquisitor dispels at 2x their level... It makes a mockery of Mage battles. There are many who consider it one of the most OP classes out there for precisely this reason.
Seeking Sword. 3 attacks per round at +4 to hit. Granted it can't be used often so I see your point.
Also it becomes really, really annoying in BG2EE because it can't be used often (I know because I did a playthrough with a Priest of Helm once). Plus it only does 2d4 damage, and while righteous magic does mitigate that loss (because it ensures you always do maximum damage) you still are limited in terms of your APR. Also when using it you don't get a lot of the really good hit effects/elemental damage that you can get with other weapons.
I can see your point. And I swear this is my last question. I am not trying to be argumentive I just really want to play a Pally and have to get these things worked out before I can bring myself to do it.
Considering that by level cap a Cleric can cast a whopping 60 divine spells compared to a Paladin's 20, it seems to me that anything the Cleric lacks is mitigated and then some. I think of all the bonuses a Paladin has, many of which you just named, and then I think of the 40 extra spells the Cleric has as well as the ability to wear Plate (like the Cleric) and wield FotA, and I think those 40 extra spells (22 are level 5 and up) would provide enough buffing to more than make up for anything the Cleric lacks, with enough leftover to make the Cleric a sure winner.
And then I think about a human dualed to Cleric. He can dual at 13 and if I'm not mistaken still hit level 32 as a Cleric. So if I'm planning on playing through the whole saga as a Pally (which I want to do) I can't help but feel handicapped in the long run. And only playing BGEE I feel it's pointless considering I only get 1 measly lvl 1 spell and only one measly 1/2 attack when all is said and done.
Meh, I am beating a dead horse now. Thanks for all the input guys. If anyone can come up with a reason to play a Paladin from a powergaming perspective, I am all ears.
Honestly a lot of the divine spells are pretty mediocre. The higher level ones are good and there are a few good lower level ones. Also I think its important to remember that divine casters are limited to one spell/round (unless they are a cleric/mage) so while its true you have 60 spells you won't cast them all (at least not in any one fight). Also given that a lot of the higher level cleric spells have longer casting times (especially the level 7 ones) you are basically giving up potential attacks in favour of casting them. Whether or not that is going to be worth it is situational.
The thing with paladins is that they are a warrior character (so they got all those HLA's) that can have 25/25/25 for strength/dexterity/constitution by the time they are level 26 (thanks to DUHM) without potions or anything like that. Obviously a cleric can get this (as well as cast Armor of Faith), but the fact that they can get these spells while getting the warrior benefits is what is important. Anyways, think of them more as a warrior and less as a cleric.
As for dualing at level 13. I mean sure you can do it but you are basically handicapped for 1.35 million xp. In a 6 person party you are basically looking at being closer to the end of SoA when you get your fighter skills back. Personally I'd probably dual class earlier.
Since its opening this thread has showed its usefullness: we get many questions and answers in one place so that the forum is not overloaded. This is why I've decided to stick this discussion.
OK, I am back once again to sing the praises of the Cleric! Let me introduce you all to Virtus, my freshly rolled Half-Orc Priest of Lathander. I chose Half-Orc because I have a certain concept in mind (explained below). He will have stats a Human Paladin only wishes he had. BTW, "Virtus" (pronounced wir.tuːs) is latin for "virtue". I know, I know. Your mind = blown!
Granted, to do this requires a MONSTER roll, but when you finally hit the required roll, you are well on your way to eating Paladins for BREAKFAST.
By the time he hits ToB, his stats will look like this:
Str 21 (Str Tome and Lum of the Mad) Dx 19 (no difference between 19 and 20 Dex, which is another reason I didn't choose Elf) Cn 20 (I realize Clerics don't benefit from Con over 16 - this is for regen) Int 12 (I will get it up to 13 but I will lose a point in the second game - but 12 is the magic number) Ws 23 (3 tomes in BG + I can bring my wisdom up in BG2) Ch 14 (+ friends it will be 19 which yields +8 Reaction, combined with heroic rep, that will be perfectly ok)
This will be a Cleric that can do the following:
Regenerate health just by resting, traveling, or waiting (healing spells for my party members only). Wield Flail of the Ages w/ 21 Strength!!! And that's BEFORE casting DUHM. Frontline Mindflayers (12 Int + Pot of genius = 16 Int which is the magic number).
And much, much more.
Edit 20 days later: Came back to reference my starting stats and saw where I mentioned the spell "Friends". Priests can't cast from scrolls so I don't know what I was thinking when I mentioned it, maybe I was thinking the Mage could cast it on my Priest - don't remember. Either way, I was wrong.
Comments
(Jansen Spectroscopes)
:P
As to regular ol' eyeglasses, I'm not sure, but I can definitely justify them existing in a world so rife with magic.
My questions:
1) With the wide variety of already usable items, is there any point me taking UAI? (I'm dual-wielding, so not interested in Carsomyr)
2) Should I be able to access any Mage HLAs? (I know the spell ones are out of my casting ability, but what about the extra spell slots?)
Dispel Magic on self when immobilised?
I don't think you can get any of the mage HLA's (including the spell slots). At least not without a mod.
Many thanks, I was aware of the Scarlet Ninja-to, but I'm specked for short & long swords (call it an elf thing
I guess many the bardic gloves (for extra spell slots), or Montolio's Cloak could also be handy, but they seem fairly minor boosts compared to another GWW or Spike Trap.
Why would anyone play a Paladin (not counting Blackguard) when they can play a Cleric? Here are the reasons why this makes no sense to me (maybe someone more experienced knows something I don't):
1. Exceptional strength is meaningless. A cleric that starts w/ 18 str can raise it to 19 w/ the manual of Gainful Exercise effectively rendering exceptional strength MOOT.
2. The fewer pips (as a non-warrior) is mitigated by the fact that Paladins cannot master any weapon, and you are only ever going to focus on one or two weapons, anyway.
3. The saving throw bonus is pointless. The Cleric has more spells and better spells, and can easily make up for that and still have way more spells leftover.
4. Can only use blunt weapons. Boohoo. Flail of the Ages is what's you're going to want, anyway, and lack of a pip is easily mitigated by the high level buffs that Pallys only WISHED they had.
The extra hitpoints (thanks to the higher constitution) and weapon specialization are the only real benefit I can see, but better bonuses can be obtained by a high-Wisdom Cleric with more than enough Spells left to cast.
Clerics can:
1. Cast WAY more spells.
3. Cast higher level spells.
2. Turn undead way better.
4. Wear plate and helm!
Clerics have so many freaking spells that anything it lacks over a Paladin is easily made up for and then some by tons and tons of buffs, and the Cleric still would have plenty of spells leftover to eat the Paladin for breakfast.
I see no reason to play a Paladin when a person play a Cleric. Maybe I am missing something.
Edit:
Also, you have to be human to be a Paladin, which stinks. You can be an elven Cleric.
Lastly, You can roll a human and dual-class into a Cleric at 13 and you will have 8 pips by the time you dual and you will still be able to get to where you have 5 lvl 7 spells.
Elvin Cleric, Fighter/Cleric multi or (especially) Human Fighter/Cleric dual seems to me eats the Paladin for breakfast.
To me the Paladin seems built for a noob.
I am not as experienced as some of you and I hope maybe someone can shed some light on this because I really love the Paladin concept but I see no real reason to play one.
Mechanically the kits have useful resistances and abilities... in particular the Inquistor's insta-cast True Sight and epic Dispel level are really powerful in a game rammed with powerful magic users.
But it's mostly taste... Any class/kit can be powerful if used right.
I guess it comes down to flavour. I really, really want to play a Paladin but I am stuck in the powergaming rut where I have to know the logic of a class before I can play it.
Edit: Priests of Lathander can use Boon of Lathander...it just keeps getting worse for the Paladin as far as I can tell.
Paladin can use speed weapons (kundane and belm) or even useful two handed swords like Carsomyr.
Pure cleric can't get more than basic proficiency in a weapon. They also won't get improved APR at levels 7 and 13 (which a paladin gets).
Paladins get warrior HLA's, which are generally a lot better than the clerics. Paladins for instance can get 9-10 APR with Critical Strike active, meaning that every one of their attacks hits in that round. They also still get summon deva (or fallen deva in the case of blackguards).
I don't think there is any doubt that clerics are the better casters, but generally paladin are better up close (and with ranged weapons since they get more options when it comes to ranged weapons).
Inquisitor dispels at 2x their level... It makes a mockery of Mage battles.
There are many who consider it one of the most OP classes out there for precisely this reason.
Honestly a lot of the divine spells are pretty mediocre. The higher level ones are good and there are a few good lower level ones. Also I think its important to remember that divine casters are limited to one spell/round (unless they are a cleric/mage) so while its true you have 60 spells you won't cast them all (at least not in any one fight). Also given that a lot of the higher level cleric spells have longer casting times (especially the level 7 ones) you are basically giving up potential attacks in favour of casting them. Whether or not that is going to be worth it is situational.
The thing with paladins is that they are a warrior character (so they got all those HLA's) that can have 25/25/25 for strength/dexterity/constitution by the time they are level 26 (thanks to DUHM) without potions or anything like that. Obviously a cleric can get this (as well as cast Armor of Faith), but the fact that they can get these spells while getting the warrior benefits is what is important. Anyways, think of them more as a warrior and less as a cleric.
As for dualing at level 13. I mean sure you can do it but you are basically handicapped for 1.35 million xp. In a 6 person party you are basically looking at being closer to the end of SoA when you get your fighter skills back. Personally I'd probably dual class earlier.
Granted, to do this requires a MONSTER roll, but when you finally hit the required roll, you are well on your way to eating Paladins for BREAKFAST.
By the time he hits ToB, his stats will look like this:
Str 21 (Str Tome and Lum of the Mad)
Dx 19 (no difference between 19 and 20 Dex, which is another reason I didn't choose Elf)
Cn 20 (I realize Clerics don't benefit from Con over 16 - this is for regen)
Int 12 (I will get it up to 13 but I will lose a point in the second game - but 12 is the magic number)
Ws 23 (3 tomes in BG + I can bring my wisdom up in BG2)
Ch 14 (+ friends it will be 19 which yields +8 Reaction, combined with heroic rep, that will be perfectly ok)
This will be a Cleric that can do the following:
Regenerate health just by resting, traveling, or waiting (healing spells for my party members only).
Wield Flail of the Ages w/ 21 Strength!!! And that's BEFORE casting DUHM.
Frontline Mindflayers (12 Int + Pot of genius = 16 Int which is the magic number).
And much, much more.
Edit 20 days later: Came back to reference my starting stats and saw where I mentioned the spell "Friends". Priests can't cast from scrolls so I don't know what I was thinking when I mentioned it, maybe I was thinking the Mage could cast it on my Priest - don't remember. Either way, I was wrong.