It doesn't really matter much either way but I think it would provide more in the way of options particularly in BG2EE (when weapon choices are more varied). By taking short sword at level 8 that would free up level 12 for katanas. It means that you can give something like Belm to a warrior character in your group and use kundane on the offhand instead (with a better chance of it hitting than otherwise) and a number of different weapons in your main hand. Basically it just provides a lot more options than specializing earlier does.
...But I think spreading out proficiencies is a better approach to take...
Ok, now I'm confused. I thought part of the appeal of the Swashbuckler was that it can specialize in any weapon available to a thief (as well as put 3 pips in two-weapon fighting). If I spread my pips out I can't take advantage of the Swashbuckler special - I might as well have chosen an Assassin. I wanted a fighter/thief hybrid that can be dualed to mage. You can't dual fighter/thief multis, so swashbucklers seemed like the next best thing.
As far as I know I will only get 5 pips before I dual. That's it. So if I want to specialize AND get three in weapon style, I have to pick a weapon and stick with it. I chose scimitars, not only because of BGEE but because of Belm and Spectral Brand +5 which seems like an amazing combo (and Belm and MMM when fighting scrubs).
If I had backstab I would go with short sword for their excellent speed factor, but that's not the style I'm shooting for in this playthrough.
I appreciate Elminster's advice, though, and I'm sure it's good advice - I just feel like I would have to start over if I wanted to follow it, particularly because I already put my fourth pip into scimitars.
Kundane takes longer to get but due to its APR bonus its a better choice over Usuno's. Anyways since what I was suggesting would involve having proficiency in short swords, katanas, and scimitars at that point its not like you couldn't use Usuno's instead with anything more than a minor difference in damage. It would also allow someone else in the party to use belm for instance (while still allowing you to use Kundane and a weapon other than short swords or scimitars for your main hand).
Ok, now I'm confused. I thought part of the appeal of the Swashbuckler was that it can specialize in any weapon available to a thief (as well as put 3 pips in two-weapon fighting). If I spread my pips out I can't take advantage of the Swashbuckler special - I might as well have chosen an Assassin. I wanted a fighter/thief hybrid that can be dualed to mage. You can't dual fighter/thief multis, so swashbucklers seemed like the next best thing.
As far as I know I will only get 5 pips before I dual. That's it. So if I want to specialize AND get that third weapon, I have to pick a weapon and stick with it. I chose scimitars, not only because of BGEE but because of Belm and Spectral Brand +5 which seems like an amazing combo (and Belm and MMM when fighting scrubs).
If I had backstab I would go with short sword for their excellent speed factor, but that's not the style I'm shooting for in this playthrough.
I appreciate Elminster's advice, though, and I'm sure it's good advice - I just feel like I would have to start over if I wanted to follow it, particularly because I already put my fourth pip into scimitars.
The swashbuckler has many appeals I'm sure, but one of them is that it can get some of the lowest AC amounts in the game. As a thief it also benefits from an faster level progression compared to a fighter (at least until the very end of BG2) and a fighter/thief. Plus it gets bonuses to its damage/to hit at levels 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40.
As to restarting I'm certainly not suggesting that. What I would suggest however is that you go with Katanas at level 12 instead of a 3rd point in two-weapon style. As a thief any time you use a weapon that you don't have proficiency in you take a -3 hit to your Thac0. Your bonuses as a swashbuckler will make up for that but you also have to remember that with a penalty like that you will be behind the thac0 of a fighter/warrior at your level of experience (particularly fighters since they level faster and get up to grandmastery).
Short swords aren't good for backstabbing because their damage is low. But Kundane (which is a short sword) is good as an off-hand weapon because it increases your number of attacks per round. Your offhand weapon will only make one attack in a round (in most cases sometimes two) but the bonus Kundane gives is applied instead to your mainhand weapon. There is a scimitar called belm that does the same thing (there is another weapon that does this as well but you won't be able to use it until much later into the game). My point was that if you had 3 different weapons you were proficient in you would be in a better position at level 12 to choose between different weapons. I wouldn't really worry about it either way but I still would recommend you look into taking Katana proficiency at level 12.
The third pip in two-weapon fighting will only net a -2 to offhand thac0, and seeing as how the offhand is mainly going to be used for weapons that boost APR and add +dmg to MMM (both unaffected by thac0), I think becoming proficient with katana is not a bad idea at all ... particularly when I can look forward to using arguably the best weapon in the game in Celestial Fury.
If nothing else, it's something to think about and an added option going forward.
The third pip in two-weapon fighting will only net a -2 to offhand thac0, and seeing as how the offhand is mainly going to be used for weapons that boost APR and add +dmg to MMM (both unaffected by thac0), I think becoming proficient with katana is not a bad idea at all ... particularly when I can look forward to using arguably the best weapon in the game in Celestial Fury.
If nothing else, it's something to think about and an added option going forward.
Just wanted to jump in and say while Celestial fury is very powerful, it's far from the best weapon in the game. Katana is one of the worse proficiency to pick unless you want to use CF for the SoA part.
While Dak'kon is sweet for a mage, remember that you'll have to memorize the additional spells you get from it every single time you use MM or another spell that changes your weapon. This is the reason i never use it.
But as you can see there are very few Katanas, and you won't get a +4 until very late in the game. Celestial Fury is indeed powerful, but it's not worth it to be honest, give it to Valygar or another NPC.
Scimitar -> Short Sword -> Katana/Dagger in my opinion.
The third pip in two-weapon fighting will only net a -2 to offhand thac0, and seeing as how the offhand is mainly going to be used for weapons that boost APR and add +dmg to MMM (both unaffected by thac0), I think becoming proficient with katana is not a bad idea at all ... particularly when I can look forward to using arguably the best weapon in the game in Celestial Fury.
If nothing else, it's something to think about and an added option going forward.
The other thing I would say is that I wouldn't worry yourself too much about if a weapon is +3 or +4. Even the final boss in the series (end of BG2) can be hurt by +3 weapons. Its really only a handful of enemies that can't be (and in their case you should be able to find scimitars/short swords or another weapon that can hit them). If you are looking for a weapon focus on the other types of damage it does, any effects it does when it hits, what spells or abilities it has. That kind of thing. For instance Celestial Fury is a great weapon but if you are fighting mages then you might want to look at switching it for a weapon that does reliable elemental damage (this tends to bypass their spell protections and stop them from casting).
If I were a Paladin things would be simpler. It begins and ends with Carsomyr. That was the first class I played in this saga and I gave up to try something more robust. I probably should have played through with a couple of single classes first and then maybe tried a multiclass. Dual classing requires so much metagaming and planning that it kind of sucks the fun out of it.
I am definitely going to keep going and finish what I started, but if I had it to do over again I would have chosen a fighter/mage/thief multi and saved dual-classing for another day.
This isn't so random but I can't get an answer elsewhere.
I'm stuck in durlag's labyrinth level 3. I fought the bosses in the wrong order and the doors in level 2 are locked from the other side... (trying to avoid spoilers).
can someone tell me how to reset the bosses? I can reward you handsomely with half a dozen [Ring of Protection +1] lol :P
This isn't so random but I can't get an answer elsewhere.
I'm stuck in durlag's labyrinth level 3. I fought the bosses in the wrong order and the doors in level 2 are locked from the other side... (trying to avoid spoilers).
can someone tell me how to reset the bosses? I can reward you handsomely with half a dozen [Ring of Protection +1] lol :P
As far as I know, if you walk into the fire room, it should move you automatically to the chess battle.
As far as getting out of the level... Try talking to the person to the north-northeast of the star tying point...
Proficiency, Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, and Grand Mastery.
Are the benefits cumulitive? How does the whole thing work? Surely you don't get an extra 1/2 APR for every single point you place past proficiency?
Of course it cumulative. Every time you get a new * it adds something to your skills! and ech * add something a little different, like thac0 bonus, damage bonus(right?), extra attacks. Someone more powergamey can probably tell you excactly what.
Proficiency, Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, and Grand Mastery.
Are the benefits cumulitive? How does the whole thing work? Surely you don't get an extra 1/2 APR for every single point you place past proficiency?
You get whatever bonus you are listed as getting with your particular proficiency level. So a character with grandmastery gets 1 more APR compared to a character with proficiency (rather than 3 more APR).
1 Proficient) Normal THAC0 while using weapon 2 Specialized) +1 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round 3 Mastery) +3 THAC0. +3 damage. +1/2 attacks per round 4 High Mastery) +3 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -1 speed factor to weapon. 5 Grand Mastery) +3 THAC0. +5 damage. +3/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.
So Grand Mastery gives + 7 Thac0, +11 dmg, +2 attacks, and -4 speed factor when compared to proficiency? I find that hard to believe. If that's true, Barbarian is a worthless class and the Berserker and Fighters are OP big time.
So from Proficient to Specialization, you gain +1 thac0, +2 dmg, and +1/2 attacks (warrior)...
BUT FROM SPECIALIZATION TO MASTERY, do you gain an ADDITIONAL +3 THAC0, +3 DAMAGE, and +1/2 APR, or ONLY an additional +2 Thac0, +1 dmg, and no APR bonus???
That would make the 2nd pip the most important and the 4th pip all but worthless (besides being a bridge to GM).
That's what I'm wondering. Are the effects cumulative?
Edit: A better way of asking this question is when looking at what Grand Mastery offers, is that compared to Proficiency, or is it compared to High Mastery?
I am sure by now you know what I am wondering.
Edit Edit: Actually the first APR comes on the second pip so that's the most important one. Unless the effects are cumulative which is what I am wondering.
Proficiency, Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, and Grand Mastery.
Are the benefits cumulitive? How does the whole thing work? Surely you don't get an extra 1/2 APR for every single point you place past proficiency?
You get whatever bonus you are listed as getting with your particular proficiency level. So a character with grandmastery gets 1 more APR compared to a character with proficiency (rather than 3 more APR).
Oh, I see you answered it. So I guess if the APR bonus isn't cumulative from HM to GM (but only from proficiency to GM) then the Thac0 and DMG bonus isn't either.
But in that case wouldn't it be 1.5 APR? Meaning you gain a complete additional attack at GM? (3/2 = 1.5)
What's the difference between speed factor and apr?
Speed factor is how fast you attack, form the time the round starts/you give the attack action until the attack is made. APR is how many attacks you get every round, in melee, base is always 1, in ranged, it depends on the weapon.
@meagloth Speed factor is how soon in the round you can make an attack with a weapon. The lower the number the sooner the attack happens. Think of it as a countdown to the completion of the attack, similar to casting time. APR is just how many attacks you can do in a round. Speed factor is pretty much irrelevant and largely ignored.
I have a question of my own now. I have been stuck for the past 5 hours (!) trying to decide what to pick as my next HLA on my Berserker>Shadowdancer. I can't decide between Shadow Twin, Shadow Maze, Shadow Form, and Assassination. I already picked UAI and that is so far the only HLA I have. Someone put me out of my misery and tell me which one to pick!
So... back to durlag's labyrinth level 3. lol thank you so much abacus for responding but I think you must have the levels confused because the starting area is as far north east as the map gets. There are 4 boss rooms to the south west and a room bordered by a dragon skeleton to the north west. If I can't get to the chess game I just want out... the only save game i could revert to is just after I installed the expansion
@Tresset it depends in your playing style. If you attack more than what you defend, go for Shadow Twin, and if you defend more, go for Shadow Form first. I'd have uses of both, since 50% physical resistance is even more than what you get with Hardiness, and with UAI you can easily reach 100%. Shadow Twin will let you you have to deadly backstabbers that can HIPS.
Shadow twin is very nice. I found it invaluable in the black Pitts, and if I remember correctly, the shadow twin can cast shadow twin once again, if you pick it more than once.
I have a question of my own now. I have been stuck for the past 5 hours (!) trying to decide what to pick as my next HLA on my Berserker>Shadowdancer. I can't decide between Shadow Twin, Shadow Maze, Shadow Form, and Assassination. I already picked UAI and that is so far the only HLA I have. Someone put me out of my misery and tell me which one to pick!
WHoa hang on - how did you dual INTO a speciality class???
Seriously though, I used my knowledge of the engine and various editing tools to basically hack my way into that class combo. Doing this has created some minor issues with my character but I can live with that. If you want to know more about my process then check out this thread which is basically my log on what I did and how I solved certain issues that came up from cheating.
@CrevsDaak Yeah, I would probably be more partial to Shadow Twin now that I think about it (especially good with Vhailor's Helm). Shadow Form is still pretty slick and if you use it with the cloak of non-detection you are basically immune to mages since they can't remove the Improved Invisibility with true seeing and they can't cast spells on you either since you are invisible. I have both now though.
@meagloth *shrug* Putting me out of 5 hours of indecisive misery seems worthy enough of a promote to me... Anyway, you make a good point about speed factor for backstabbing. Stealth mode tends to be a bit fickle and you will want to pull off the attack ASAP after disengaging it. I should also point out that the more APR you have the less speed factor matters. The length of the round does not change so having more APR effectively makes you hit faster as well just to make sure that all the attacks fit in the round. Also note that being hasted halves the length of a round. So if you are hasted and have 2 APR you will attack only once per round but you will get two rounds where you would otherwise get only one (not sure why they did that...).
Comments
As to restarting I'm certainly not suggesting that. What I would suggest however is that you go with Katanas at level 12 instead of a 3rd point in two-weapon style. As a thief any time you use a weapon that you don't have proficiency in you take a -3 hit to your Thac0. Your bonuses as a swashbuckler will make up for that but you also have to remember that with a penalty like that you will be behind the thac0 of a fighter/warrior at your level of experience (particularly fighters since they level faster and get up to grandmastery).
Short swords aren't good for backstabbing because their damage is low. But Kundane (which is a short sword) is good as an off-hand weapon because it increases your number of attacks per round. Your offhand weapon will only make one attack in a round (in most cases sometimes two) but the bonus Kundane gives is applied instead to your mainhand weapon. There is a scimitar called belm that does the same thing (there is another weapon that does this as well but you won't be able to use it until much later into the game). My point was that if you had 3 different weapons you were proficient in you would be in a better position at level 12 to choose between different weapons. I wouldn't really worry about it either way but I still would recommend you look into taking Katana proficiency at level 12.
The third pip in two-weapon fighting will only net a -2 to offhand thac0, and seeing as how the offhand is mainly going to be used for weapons that boost APR and add +dmg to MMM (both unaffected by thac0), I think becoming proficient with katana is not a bad idea at all ... particularly when I can look forward to using arguably the best weapon in the game in Celestial Fury.
If nothing else, it's something to think about and an added option going forward.
[All the Katanas in the game]
Malakar +2
Dak'kon's zerth blade +2
Katana +3 (ToB)
Celestial Fury +3
Hindo's Doom +3 (Level 5 WK)
Hindo's Doom +4 (Upgrade mid ToB)
While Dak'kon is sweet for a mage, remember that you'll have to memorize the additional spells you get from it every single time you use MM or another spell that changes your weapon. This is the reason i never use it.
But as you can see there are very few Katanas, and you won't get a +4 until very late in the game. Celestial Fury is indeed powerful, but it's not worth it to be honest, give it to Valygar or another NPC.
Scimitar -> Short Sword -> Katana/Dagger in my opinion.
I am definitely going to keep going and finish what I started, but if I had it to do over again I would have chosen a fighter/mage/thief multi and saved dual-classing for another day.
I'm stuck in durlag's labyrinth level 3. I fought the bosses in the wrong order and the doors in level 2 are locked from the other side... (trying to avoid spoilers).
can someone tell me how to reset the bosses? I can reward you handsomely with half a dozen [Ring of Protection +1] lol :P
As far as getting out of the level... Try talking to the person to the north-northeast of the star tying point...
It's possible I have my floors confused.
Proficiency, Specialization, Mastery, High Mastery, and Grand Mastery.
Are the benefits cumulitive? How does the whole thing work? Surely you don't get an extra 1/2 APR for every single point you place past proficiency?
2 Specialized) +1 THAC0. +2 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
3 Mastery) +3 THAC0. +3 damage. +1/2 attacks per round
4 High Mastery) +3 THAC0. +4 damage. +1/2 attacks per round. -1 speed factor to weapon.
5 Grand Mastery) +3 THAC0. +5 damage. +3/2 attacks per round. -3 speed factor to weapon.
So Grand Mastery gives + 7 Thac0, +11 dmg, +2 attacks, and -4 speed factor when compared to proficiency? I find that hard to believe. If that's true, Barbarian is a worthless class and the Berserker and Fighters are OP big time.
So from Proficient to Specialization, you gain +1 thac0, +2 dmg, and +1/2 attacks (warrior)...
BUT FROM SPECIALIZATION TO MASTERY, do you gain an ADDITIONAL +3 THAC0, +3 DAMAGE, and +1/2 APR, or ONLY an additional +2 Thac0, +1 dmg, and no APR bonus???
That would make the 2nd pip the most important and the 4th pip all but worthless (besides being a bridge to GM).
That's what I'm wondering. Are the effects cumulative?
Edit: A better way of asking this question is when looking at what Grand Mastery offers, is that compared to Proficiency, or is it compared to High Mastery?
I am sure by now you know what I am wondering.
Edit Edit: Actually the first APR comes on the second pip so that's the most important one. Unless the effects are cumulative which is what I am wondering.
But in that case wouldn't it be 1.5 APR? Meaning you gain a complete additional attack at GM? (3/2 = 1.5)
@tresset @Elminister wow. A promote?
And It looks like speed factor is only relevant when backstabbing, so you can do it as quickly as possible?
Seriously though, I used my knowledge of the engine and various editing tools to basically hack my way into that class combo. Doing this has created some minor issues with my character but I can live with that. If you want to know more about my process then check out this thread which is basically my log on what I did and how I solved certain issues that came up from cheating.
@CrevsDaak Yeah, I would probably be more partial to Shadow Twin now that I think about it (especially good with Vhailor's Helm). Shadow Form is still pretty slick and if you use it with the cloak of non-detection you are basically immune to mages since they can't remove the Improved Invisibility with true seeing and they can't cast spells on you either since you are invisible. I have both now though.
@meagloth *shrug* Putting me out of 5 hours of indecisive misery seems worthy enough of a promote to me...
Anyway, you make a good point about speed factor for backstabbing. Stealth mode tends to be a bit fickle and you will want to pull off the attack ASAP after disengaging it. I should also point out that the more APR you have the less speed factor matters. The length of the round does not change so having more APR effectively makes you hit faster as well just to make sure that all the attacks fit in the round. Also note that being hasted halves the length of a round. So if you are hasted and have 2 APR you will attack only once per round but you will get two rounds where you would otherwise get only one (not sure why they did that...).