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Drow weapons make no sense

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  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    I used to recharge items with a spell I had created in SoA using "drain item charges" with a negative number applied....and then ToB came out. That was the end of that neat little trick. Phooey.

    I still say the simplest method is to edit ar2500.bcs and not worry about creative ways around it.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    I think that some kind of 'recharge' mechanic for wands would be nice. Certainly that would make me less hesitant to actually use them from time to time. I remember in ToEE, you could create wands and that was an excellent way to make up for limited use functionality of the Wizards spell casting. Slap on a reasonable cost and you get some fixed cast spells that would prevent wizards from being relegated to dart throwers.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    @Mathsorcerer‌ why did ToB ruin your custom spell? That sounds like an awesome thing. Do you think you could make it again now that EE is here?
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    Opcode 243, drain item charges, no longer accepted negative values; I was a little upset about that. On the other hand, opcode 99 (duration modifier) began working so I made an item that set my mage spell durations to 150% their normal value.

    I haven't tried to recreate it in EE yet so now I guess I have to. Will let you know how it turns out.
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,155
    Tresset said:

    Mathsorcerer‌ why did ToB ruin your custom spell? That sounds like an awesome thing. Do you think you could make it again now that EE is here?

    BG:EE uses ToB's engine particularly, some effects (particularly this one) were changed again in the EE, but I can't confirm that they work.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    bengoshi said:

    Confession: I recharge literally every single wand, every single ring, every single amulet, every single trinket.

    Aha, I thought I might turn out not to be the only one! So, does that mean you're often short of gold, like me? Or does it mean that you recharge by stealing from Gorch?
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    I think that some kind of 'recharge' mechanic for wands would be nice. Certainly that would make me less hesitant to actually use them from time to time. I remember in ToEE, you could create wands and that was an excellent way to make up for limited use functionality of the Wizards spell casting. Slap on a reasonable cost and you get some fixed cast spells that would prevent wizards from being relegated to dart throwers.

    ?? We already have a recharge mechanism, i.e. sell and buy back. What's the problem? (Yes, it's expensive, but this is what gives you a use for all that gold you accumulate.)
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @Gallowglass - I mean a non "Cheese" method.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689
    I like the idea that you can't recharge your wands. Wands in my opinion should be special as it's an instant cast thing that you won't have to memorize, especially the wand of cloudkill. You shouldn't replace your normal spells with wands, you should instead use wands on those rare occasions when you need them the most.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    @SionIV - I take your meaning.

    For me personally, I have always hated the limited use spell casting system. If played properly, a Fighter can continue to deal out damage and remain a functional member of the party indefinitely. Wizards are limited by the number of spells they have in a given day. This, 'To me', is a big flaw. People will put up the argument that wizards get some pretty amazing spells, and that is 100% true. it doesn't change the fact that, if the wizard is out of spells for the day, they are so much dead weight.

    If the solution were that wands weren't 'Instant' cast, and that the 'Cost' of recharging was dependent upon the power of the spell, I'd be happy with that. But keep in mind that a 20th level wizard using a wand of fireballs is still only casting a 5D6 spell, whereas if they memorized it, the spell would be MUCH more powerful. So it isn't 'Free extra spells', and it is dependent upon having the wand of the type needed.

    Again, in ToEE, I would routinely have my Wizard create utility wands so he could keep on casting and contributing through a given adventuring day. This, to me, went some way to balancing things out.
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    @SionIV - I take your meaning.

    For me personally, I have always hated the limited use spell casting system. If played properly, a Fighter can continue to deal out damage and remain a functional member of the party indefinitely. Wizards are limited by the number of spells they have in a given day. This, 'To me', is a big flaw. People will put up the argument that wizards get some pretty amazing spells, and that is 100% true. it doesn't change the fact that, if the wizard is out of spells for the day, they are so much dead weight.

    If the solution were that wands weren't 'Instant' cast, and that the 'Cost' of recharging was dependent upon the power of the spell, I'd be happy with that. But keep in mind that a 20th level wizard using a wand of fireballs is still only casting a 5D6 spell, whereas if they memorized it, the spell would be MUCH more powerful. So it isn't 'Free extra spells', and it is dependent upon having the wand of the type needed.

    Again, in ToEE, I would routinely have my Wizard create utility wands so he could keep on casting and contributing through a given adventuring day. This, to me, went some way to balancing things out.

    I think it comes down to the fact that the most powerful spell doesn't deal damage. And while the Fighter will deal more damage, one Chaos spell can and will shut down an entire party.
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,251
    How did we go from bec de corbins to spells, wands & cheese?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited June 2014
    SionIV said:

    I think it comes down to the fact that the most powerful spell doesn't deal damage. And while the Fighter will deal more damage, one Chaos spell can and will shut down an entire party.

    Actually it has nothing to do with the amount of damage what so ever. It has to do with the fact that fighters, clerics and thieves (and all of the sub-classes) continue to remain viable party members and capable of doing their thing with a reasonable expectation of being able to contribute significantly for infinity whereas Wizards have a finite stopping point, regardless of how powerful they are prior to that point.

    You throw a fighter into a ring with nothing but his bare hands (a rare occurrence) and he will have a reasonable chance to actually kill whatever is in there with him. You catch a wizard who just cast his last spell for the day or is holding it out in anticipation of another battle to come (a common occurrence) and he is so much dead meat.

    Better yet, You play a 20th level Wizard with no spells (or HLAs) left (no contingencies, wands, scrolls or other magic items and nothing but the robes on his back). i will play a 3rd level fighter with only basic armor and a rusty long sword. Who will win? Now, reverse that. Your 20th level fighter with only his bare hands against my 3rd level wizard. Even if you give the 3rd level wizard some impressive magic, Who wins?
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    SionIV said:

    I think it comes down to the fact that the most powerful spell doesn't deal damage. And while the Fighter will deal more damage, one Chaos spell can and will shut down an entire party.

    Actually it has nothing to do with the amount of damage what so ever. It has to do with the fact that fighters, clerics and thieves (and all of the sub-classes) continue to remain viable party members and capable of doing their thing with a reasonable expectation of being able to contribute significantly for infinity whereas Wizards have a finite stopping point, regardless of how powerful they are prior to that point.

    You throw a fighter into a ring with nothing but his bare hands (a rare occurrence) and he will have a reasonable chance to actually kill whatever is in there with him. You catch a wizard who just cast his last spell for the day or is holding it out in anticipation of another battle to come (a common occurrence) and he is so much dead meat.

    Better yet, You play a 20th level Wizard with no spells (or HLAs) left (no contingencies, wands, scrolls or other magic items and nothing but the robes on his back). i will play a 3rd level fighter with only basic armor and a rusty long sword. Who will win? Now, reverse that. Your 20th level fighter with only his bare hands against my 3rd level wizard. Even if you give the 3rd level wizard some impressive magic, Who wins?
    I agree with what you say, but the Wizard is a glass cannon. They have much more power than the fighter, the downside is they don't always have this power, you need to rest and make sure to pick the right spells.

    And i like the example you put, but a 20th level Wizard naked with a staff would beat the shit out of a level 3 fighter!
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    SionIV said:

    And i like the example you put, but a 20th level Wizard naked with a staff would beat the shit out of a level 3 fighter!

    You think? I'm not so sure. At minimum it would be closer than any other two class characters in a similar situation.

    Anyway, my opinions were nothing more than that. subjective opinions. I personally dislike the system and see another being more equitable. However, I don't see it changing, nor is it necessary for others to hold the same. So, nuff said.

  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @the_spyder‌

    @SpaceInvader - If that's your definition of "A little bit cheesy", what's your definition of "A LOT of cheese"?

    His Moonblade trick that's way too cool to share with the rest of the world. ;)
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,689

    SionIV said:

    And i like the example you put, but a 20th level Wizard naked with a staff would beat the shit out of a level 3 fighter!

    You think? I'm not so sure. At minimum it would be closer than any other two class characters in a similar situation.

    Anyway, my opinions were nothing more than that. subjective opinions. I personally dislike the system and see another being more equitable. However, I don't see it changing, nor is it necessary for others to hold the same. So, nuff said.

    A level 3 fighter has 18 Thac0
    A level 20 mage has 14 Thac0
    A level 20 mage will have more health than a level 3 fighter.

    I'm voting on the old grumpy mage!
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited June 2014
    A level 3 fighter has between 30 and 42 hit points.
    A level 20 mage has approximately 70 hit points

    A level 3 (given decent STR and Specialization) can hit for, oh let's call it D8 +6 (3 STR, 3 Specialization) per attack, call it 10, with specialization getting 3/2 rounds

    A level 20 mage will hit for D8, call it 4 hit points, once per round.

    A mage takes 7 hits to kill. For a Fighter, call it 4-6 rounds. Wizard doing 4 per round, needs a minimum of 11 hits to kill the fighter. Even if they hit every single round, it is still 11 rounds. Fighter wins.

    None of which really matters. A fighter is rarely going to be caught out without some heavy armor and a weapon. A wizard sans his spells is a daily occurrence. And I didn't want to get into PVP so much as to show the relative weakness of a scenario that happens a LOT for a wizard.

    And I can't tell you how many times my wizard has 'Duck and cover' while the fighters in the group are out there slogging it out with the enemy. All because of limited number of casts. Personal opinion.
    Post edited by the_spyder on
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Quartz said:

    @the_spyder‌

    @SpaceInvader - If that's your definition of "A little bit cheesy", what's your definition of "A LOT of cheese"?

    His Moonblade trick that's way too cool to share with the rest of the world. ;)
    Hahahah man!! xD
    Sometimes I have an interior conflict between being a betatester and a consumed exploit abuser.
    But in the end I always tend to support the former.
    The good thing is that it is a win-win case for me ;p
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,044
    I tried it out today and it is as I feared--the "drain item charges" opcode only drains items, it will not recharge them by setting it to a negative number. The "number of charges" field was replaced with an irrelevant value and it appears to hardcode to drain 1 charge per hit or use.
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 436
    CamDawg said:

    Human chain or muling? Because I've got more bad news...

    And if not, please share. :)

    @CamDawg Wow, human chaining sounds tedious, and pretty easy to fix/break. Muling seems OK, but if I was determined to keep my drow gear, I would probably cheat in two Bag04's at the game start, and leave one in Ankathla. Then, before leaving the underdark, I would place the adamantine stuff in the other bag, and drop the bag on the ground. I really can't see how you would fix either muling or bag abuse without slowing the entire game to a crawl. But I'm guessing you can ...?
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited June 2014
    @The_Potty_1‌ if you're going to cheat in 2 BoH, than you can directly do the same for the drow stuff.
    What's the point of it?
    We were talking about exploits.

    If you want to cheat properly than make a copy of the drow "*.itm" file you want, rename it as you wish and cheat it in.
    No check will be done on it.

    What they could do is creating a new flag "Adamantine" and...
  • The_Potty_1The_Potty_1 Member Posts: 436
    edited June 2014

    @The_Potty_1‌ if you're going to cheat in 2 BoH, than you can directly do the same for the drow stuff. What's the point of it? We were talking about exploits.

    Ah. Frankly I cannot see the difference, but it's probably there somewhere. However many people cheat in a bag at game start for convenience sake, so once you have that, and pick up it's mate in spellhold, the 'exploit' is possible without any further 'cheating'?
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    Well, there is an exploit where you can get two copies of Hexxat's BoH. You take her BoH in SoA and remove her from the party she has another copy of it in ToB when you summon her with the fate spirits. I suppose you could do that... This exploit is not likely to ever be fixed too so there you go!
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    None of these cases will help keeping drow items :)
    IIRC, there are more annoying check in ToB.
  • MilochMiloch Member Posts: 863

    What they could do is creating a new flag "Adamantine" and...

    Hmm. Make it so. @Avenger_teambg @CamDawg‌
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