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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Being loyal enough to fall on one's own sword for one's commander often pays off. Recall that no one directly linked with the Iran-Contra affair wound up actually serving any time while some of them never even went to trial.

    North got off on a technicality and Bush pardoned 5 more.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Exactly. They all closed ranks and dutifully protected Reagan, who probably really didn't know what they were doing in his name.

    In retrospect, I cannot help but wonder that perhaps Iran-Contra (the Democrats controlled the House at the time) led to Clinton's impeachment--maybe that is when the current cycle of payback began. I wonder when it is going to stop.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited May 2017

    Exactly. They all closed ranks and dutifully protected Reagan, who probably really didn't know what they were doing in his name.

    In retrospect, I cannot help but wonder that perhaps Iran-Contra (the Democrats controlled the House at the time) led to Clinton's impeachment--maybe that is when the current cycle of payback began. I wonder when it is going to stop.

    The former Editor of the Washington Post Ben Bradlee said that Iran Contra probably could have been a Watergate-level scandal, but that the political media didn't have the stomach to take down two Republican Presidents in a row. My view?? Reagan was clearly already in the early stages of dementia for his entire second term (a therory reinforced when I read the memoir of his former Chief of Staff Don Regan years ago after I picked it up at a used book store, Nancy was sheltering him to the absolute extreme).

    I think the Clinton impeachment was more payback for Watergate and Clarence Thomas, as Iran Contra they all managed to skate on. Not for nothing, but Pelosi quickly took any talk of impeachment off the table in 2006, to the chagrin of many hardcore liberals at the time.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited May 2017


    Once again, WHY obsessively try to squash something you aren't worried about and insist is all a big nothing?? This is like watching a movie or TV show where the murder suspect was probably going to get away with it, but they couldn't resist returning to the alley where it took place two weeks later to make sure they didn't leave any evidence. Trump has now tried to compromise nearly every single branch of US intelligence agencies to stop an investigation into something we are repeatedly told is nothing.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Situation in Manchester tonight especially horrible because that concert was likely filled with mothers and daughters, no doubt many of them at their first concert. I don't really understand how any terrorists, suicide bombers, mass shooters, etc can possibly think they are accomplishing anything by engaging in these type of acts. In the end, almost universally, these acts are engaged in by relatively young males completely adrift from society, and there is really no way to prevent a person bent on doing so from driving a van into a crowd, or of stopping someone who is willing to blow themselves to bits if they are off the radar. But again, the vast majority of this concert was probably 10-16 year old girls. Even a mass murderer should have more of a conscience than this :(
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    @jjstraka34
    I think it's complete insanity. If these lunatics achieve their objective they'll be completely wiped out along with a Hell of a lot of innocent bystanders. These a'holes are completely outclassed and can't possibly win but I guess they're hoping to start a revolution. If you've ever read Dune you've got to wonder if they might be onto something though...
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    Sadly we have great musicians committing suicide in this country like Chris Cornell when their lives are not nearly as miserable as people in 3rd world countries. Meanwhile these cowards are taking the lives of innocents along with themselves for some ephemeral cause that nobody understands but them. Makes you wonder sometimes...
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    The UK is about to have an election. I suspect that has something to do with the timing of this attack.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited May 2017
    Yeah, I wonder if the conservatives get too much clout they might turn the clock back to the 1800's. I'm fiscally conservative and voted for Trump but I'm a bit apprehensive about things if the far right gets too much power in the world.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Mantis37 said:

    The UK is about to have an election. I suspect that has something to do with the timing of this attack.

    They tried the same thing with the French elections, it didn't help LePen
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    It's hard to tell. However the mood in the UK has been running toward anti-globalization and the media have occasionally portrayed the Labour leader Corbyn as sympathetic to the IRA. So I would tend to believe that this will push the electorate slightly to the right, unless there were some security failings which would reflect badly on the Conservatives. Then again the killing of a Labour MP by a far right terrorist didn't influence the Brexit vote that much... Just a rotten waste of life all round though.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    It is terrible that this goes on, but unfortunately it is not insane from the perspective of the terrorists. As to the targets, young targets evoke some of the strongest reactions in people, in their eyes. They know what they are doing and it takes guts to take it to that extreme. What I worry about is when they turn from the old thinking of bombs, guns, and vehicles to something more insidious like bio, which is easier to carry out, spread and obtain than most realize. Certainly more than public health officials realize from my experience. :(
    Pretty much a rotten situation all round.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,320
    The French election is an interesting contrast to what's been happening in some other countries.

    In the US obvious divisions in philosophy have existed for some time and the parties have responded to that by both getting more extreme in order to try and demonstrate party loyalty. A similar process has been at work in the UK, though not quite to the same extent. In the 1990s 'New Labour' moved very much into the centre ground and the other parties responded to their success by also adopting very similar policies - to the extent many people felt there was not much point voting as 'they're all the same'.

    In recent years there's been something of an internal revolution in the Labour party by those members and ex-members who'd felt abandoned by the metropolitan elite of the party (that includes the majority of MPs, which has caused a lot of strain in the party). That's resulted in them returning to a much more traditional left-wing agenda in the current election (higher spending, higher taxes, nationalisation etc). Meanwhile the Conservatives have been going through a similar sort of process and have been pushed considerably to the right in order to win back Ukip voters concerned over Brexit.

    In the UK that means that if you're a moderate voter (and many people are) you may be feeling somewhat abandoned right now - and I think that does offer something of an opportunity within politics. France shows what could happen. Macron saw a similar process of parties pulling apart and created a brand-new political movement deliberately apart from the traditional left-right axis. Only a year after founding En Marche, Macron has won the presidency and immediately appointed people from across the political spectrum to government. En Marche have no MPs at the moment, but don't bet against them winning a majority in the next election despite that.

    I'm not from the US, but to an outsider it would seem there must be a considerable number of people there who would welcome some form of new, moderate, political grouping untainted by previous allegiances. Trump won partly because he convinced a lot of people that he could use the Republican party to clean up politics and institutions. If it becomes apparent over a number of years that's not going to happen, there will be a lot of people thoroughly disillusioned with politics in general. That may mean that the next maverick who wants to become president could decide that they would be better off by running as an independent / creating a new party, rather than seek endorsement from one of the existing ones.
  • Mantis37Mantis37 Member Posts: 1,174
    edited May 2017
    The voting systems are a part of this. In France it is easier to become president as an outsider, gaining enough momentum to get through to the next round with a 25% vote share. In the UK the system is designed to elect an executive which can carry out its manifesto through a first past the post system. The prime minister is not directly elected, and minority viewpoints are systemically unrepresented. The main parties would long ago have split under a proportional system. The Labour party- which resembles several animals stuffed in a bag and thrown overboard- is an example of this. Splitting into ideologically coherent chunks would be electoral suicide. Tony Blair- tainted as he is by Iraq - has several times outlined the weakpoints of the Conservative position and the gaping space in the centre at present.
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,938
    @Grond0 As to the chance of an independent running as an independent ol Bernie and and Kasich mentioned that very thing briefly in a debate they had several days ago on CNN, I believe. Actually Kasich brought it up first.
    I would have liked to have seen Bernie not pick up the mantle of democrat in the last election, I know why, but still.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited May 2017
    Trump's budget is another moral abomination. Cuts to Social Security Disability payments, food stamps cut by $200 billion, Medicaid by $800 billion. But perhaps the most telling?? A billion dollar cut to the research funding of the National Cancer Institute. Really?? This is necessary?? Just how depraved are we willing to be to give tax cuts to people who already have enough money for 10 lifetimes?? How do you sell cutting cancer research?? Why would anyone even suggest it??

    Another thing that really gets me down is how attacks like Manchester continue to tar the cultural reputation of the 99% of Muslims who are just like anyone else. I work with them, I buy my Gyros from the restaurant downtown from them. This isn't them, as I'm sure @Balrog99 (who mentioned his daughter becoming good friends with a Muslim girl from down the street) can attest to. But if you go to nearly any Youtube video about this, you will see THOUSANDS of comments about how Islam is a disease and that Muslims need to be eradicated. It's depressing that anyone thinks that would work, but more depressing anyone thinks that way at all.
    Post edited by jjstraka34 on
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Trump's budget is another moral abomination. Cuts to Social Security Disability payments, food stamps cut by $200 billion, Medicaid by $800 billion. But perhaps the most telling?? A billion dollar cut to the research funding of the National Cancer Institute. Really?? This is necessary?? Just how depraved are we willing to be to give tax cuts to people who already have enough money for 10 lifetimes?? How do you sell cutting cancer research?? Why would anyone even suggest it??

    Another thing that really gets me down is how attacks like Manchester continue to tar the cultural reputation of the 99% of Muslims who are just like anyone else. I work with them, I buy my Gyros from the restaurant downtown from them. This isn't them, as I'm sure @Balrog99 (who mentioned his daughter becoming good friends with a Muslim girl from down the street) can attest to. But if you go to nearly any Youtube video about this, you will see THOUSANDS of comments about how Islam is a disease and that Muslims need to be eradicated. It's depressing that anyone thinks that would work, but more depressing anyone thinks that way at all.

    What's crazy is despite all those cuts, the total budget is the same because there are giveaways in other areas.

    So basically the cuts are seemingly just mean spirited. Is this budget an attempt at petty harmful revenge on people that are perceived as people who didn't vote for the guy who lost the popular vote by more than 3 million votes? I wouldn't put it past him.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Trump's budget is another moral abomination. Cuts to Social Security Disability payments, food stamps cut by $200 billion, Medicaid by $800 billion. But perhaps the most telling?? A billion dollar cut to the research funding of the National Cancer Institute. Really?? This is necessary?? Just how depraved are we willing to be to give tax cuts to people who already have enough money for 10 lifetimes?? How do you sell cutting cancer research?? Why would anyone even suggest it??

    Another thing that really gets me down is how attacks like Manchester continue to tar the cultural reputation of the 99% of Muslims who are just like anyone else. I work with them, I buy my Gyros from the restaurant downtown from them. This isn't them, as I'm sure @Balrog99 (who mentioned his daughter becoming good friends with a Muslim girl from down the street) can attest to. But if you go to nearly any Youtube video about this, you will see THOUSANDS of comments about how Islam is a disease and that Muslims need to be eradicated. It's depressing that anyone thinks that would work, but more depressing anyone thinks that way at all.

    What's crazy is despite all those cuts, the total budget is the same because there are giveaways in other areas.

    So basically the cuts are seemingly just mean spirited. Is this budget an attempt at petty harmful revenge on people that are perceived as people who didn't vote for the guy who lost the popular vote by more than 3 million votes? I wouldn't put it past him.
    Actually:



    The states with the highest percentage of SS disability recipients are deep red, being subsidized by the rest of the country. Mind you, I'm in FAVOR of that. I don't want their benefits touched, because it does society no good to have people who can't work end up destitute. The purpose of Social Security is in the name. It's there to help society function, and to prevent what happened in the Great Depression.

    When a 40 year old couple with 3 kids starts to see mom's nursing home subsidies slashed, they'll feel it. When their brother who was hurt on the job at 55 and can't work sees his benefits cut by 100 dollars a month and can no longer pay his bills, they'll feel it. Paul Ryan's wet dream will hit people where they live, and Republicans, in charge of every branch of government, will then have to pay the piper.
  • WesboiWesboi Member Posts: 403
    edited May 2017

    Trump's budget is another moral abomination. Cuts to Social Security Disability payments, food stamps cut by $200 billion, Medicaid by $800 billion. But perhaps the most telling?? A billion dollar cut to the research funding of the National Cancer Institute. Really?? This is necessary?? Just how depraved are we willing to be to give tax cuts to people who already have enough money for 10 lifetimes?? How do you sell cutting cancer research?? Why would anyone even suggest it??

    Another thing that really gets me down is how attacks like Manchester continue to tar the cultural reputation of the 99% of Muslims who are just like anyone else. I work with them, I buy my Gyros from the restaurant downtown from them. This isn't them, as I'm sure @Balrog99 (who mentioned his daughter becoming good friends with a Muslim girl from down the street) can attest to. But if you go to nearly any Youtube video about this, you will see THOUSANDS of comments about how Islam is a disease and that Muslims need to be eradicated. It's depressing that anyone thinks that would work, but more depressing anyone thinks that way at all.

    I get what your saying it's just an uneducated view on Islam. What's funny is how Christ is from the middle east and violent passages about stoning women and much more exist in the Bible.

    What kind of God in any religion would allow the blowing up of women and kids is just bizarre. To say it's the teachings of Islam is just bollocks.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    All I can say regarding this recent tragedy, or really want to say, is that the terrorism problem is very real, and I hope that Europe wakes up and takes serious action to stop these wave of horrors.


  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    I often hear this argument about how we need to wake up in Europe. As the number of arrests show, Europe has woken up. There was this terror attack here in Stockholm a month ago and a lot of people used this argument and claimed Sweden (and the rest of Europe) has been naïve/stupid/blind. I feel they are missing how the issue of terrorism is talked about every single day here, how politicans are trying to change terror laws for the better, how the Swedish security service has warned about this very thing for years and how security services all over the EU obviously are tracking down lots of potential terrorists.

    Of course the work to counter terror could be improved in many ways, but I don't find difficulties in "waking up" to be a part of the problem here.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited May 2017



    Actually:

    The states with the highest percentage of SS disability recipients are deep red, being subsidized by the rest of the country. Mind you, I'm in FAVOR of that. I don't want their benefits touched, because it does society no good to have people who can't work end up destitute. The purpose of Social Security is in the name. It's there to help society function, and to prevent what happened in the Great Depression.

    When a 40 year old couple with 3 kids starts to see mom's nursing home subsidies slashed, they'll feel it. When their brother who was hurt on the job at 55 and can't work sees his benefits cut by 100 dollars a month and can no longer pay his bills, they'll feel it. Paul Ryan's wet dream will hit people where they live, and Republicans, in charge of every branch of government, will then have to pay the piper.

    Let em get what they are voting for - tax cuts for the rich. Of course that doesn't help people relying on Medicaid and social security. But maybe they will learn to stop voting against their own self interests.

    Deep red state voters on social security are kind of dumb. They come for the discrimination and get hosed by the economics of the GOP.

    Q:"You know Paul Ryan and the GOP want to cut your benefits, right?"
    A:"Yeah. But her emails!"
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The NYTimes recently reported on a slew of murders of CIA operatives by the Chinese government. I was expecting Beijing to brush off the report as fake or slander or just a rumor (their typical responses to bad press from foreign sources), but the Chinese government's propaganda arms don't deny the reports. They just imply, without explicitly saying, that the killings were justified.

    The White House isn't making a big deal out of this; there's really no point. This is simply the reality of conducting intelligence work in hostile countries. It would be a bit like criticizing a foreign country for killing your soldiers when you were at war with them.

    The risk of being killed by a foreign state is the main reason why American intelligence agencies no longer put as much emphasis on human intelligence (that is, in-person spying abroad). More often we work indirectly and gather information electronically, rather than put operatives in harm's way. We have strong intelligence capabilities, but human intelligence represents one of our potential blind spots. There's only so much information you can gather from satellite photos, open source materials, or even hacking.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    The NYTimes recently reported on a slew of murders of CIA operatives by the Chinese government. I was expecting Beijing to brush off the report as fake or slander or just a rumor (their typical responses to bad press from foreign sources), but the Chinese government's propaganda arms don't deny the reports. They just imply, without explicitly saying, that the killings were justified.

    The White House isn't making a big deal out of this; there's really no point. This is simply the reality of conducting intelligence work in hostile countries. It would be a bit like criticizing a foreign country for killing your soldiers when you were at war with them.

    The risk of being killed by a foreign state is the main reason why American intelligence agencies no longer put as much emphasis on human intelligence (that is, in-person spying abroad). More often we work indirectly and gather information electronically, rather than put operatives in harm's way. We have strong intelligence capabilities, but human intelligence represents one of our potential blind spots. There's only so much information you can gather from satellite photos, open source materials, or even hacking.

    Except....this is the exact type of human intelligence Trump gave away to the Russians about Israel's asset. He is either dead or months or years of cover are now ruined. Netanyahu may continue to play nice in public, but read the body language of the Israeli officials in that meeting yesterday. They are coming to realize he is a dangerous buffoon.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037

    The states with the highest percentage of SS disability recipients are deep red, being subsidized by the rest of the country. Mind you, I'm in FAVOR of that. I don't want their benefits touched, because it does society no good to have people who can't work end up destitute. The purpose of Social Security is in the name. It's there to help society function, and to prevent what happened in the Great Depression.

    A more generic indicator of Federal spending as a percentage of State budgets may be found here. The average for all the States is 32.2%. Most States which wind up receiving more Federal aid than they might pay in are very poor and still mostly agricultural--the primary forms of aid to those States are public welfare and farm subsidies.

    I have made the case before that rather than keeping someone on public assistance on an ongoing/never-ending basis is not ideal. Instead, people in the position should be given funding for job training so that they can find some gainful 21st-Century employment. This is where community colleges become a low-wage earner's best friend. Consider the Dallas County Community College District's "Personal Computer Technology and A+ Certification" program. For a tuition rate of only $59 per credit hour (in-county residents, it is a little more if you live outside that county)--probably $750 to $1,000 counting books and lab fees--the recipient would be able to land a job in this area making probably $15 per hour or more--double the current minimum wage and also the magic number that so many people want these days. For someone who is currently struggling paycheck-to-paycheck, unemployed, and/or homeless I would be willing to cough up $1,000 to put them through this program and help them get a job.

    Anyway...Trump can propose whatever budget he would like to see but the final say on the actual budget belongs to Congress.
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108



    I have made the case before that rather than keeping someone on public assistance on an ongoing/never-ending basis is not ideal. Instead, people in the position should be given funding for job training so that they can find some gainful 21st-Century employment.

    So what about people who can't work - that is people who are on SSDI or SSI because of disability?
  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108
    Actually, scratch that - SSI and SSDI often have people re-evaluated every three years or so to see if they're still disabled. TANF (temporary assistance for needy families) has a lifetime limit. If you're not disabled and your state hasn't sought waivers, if you're on food stamps you have to look for work if you're not already employed. The only benefits in the US that you receive indefinitely are Social Security retirement income or SSI as retirement income.

    So what program are you talking about that puts people on benefits indefinitely?

    And for people who can't work, how does your proposed system function?
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" program. I was not suggesting that people who cannot work due to medical conditions of their own or a close relative be made to take job training. Of course, things aren't like they were a few years ago--no one gets 99 weeks of unemployment benefits any more (as far as I know--I need to double-check that).

    Social Security....well, the people who are collecting on it now paid into the system so they receive the benefits they are due. I highly doubt it will exist by the time I get around to facing retirement so I am not counting on it at all even though I am still paying into that system, myself.

    I was really just trying to highlight the fact that there are options out there for people only they may be unaware of them or unaware of how little they actually cost. Not that I can do it right now but if I knew someone who was really wanting to make their life situation better by getting a computer-related job I wouldn't mind fronting the $1,000 to enroll them in a community college out of my own pocket and I wouldn't expect them to pay me back, either.
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455


    Another thing that really gets me down is how attacks like Manchester continue to tar the cultural reputation of the 99% of Muslims who are just like anyone else. I work with them, I buy my Gyros from the restaurant downtown from them. This isn't them, as I'm sure @Balrog99 (who mentioned his daughter becoming good friends with a Muslim girl from down the street) can attest to. But if you go to nearly any Youtube video about this, you will see THOUSANDS of comments about how Islam is a disease and that Muslims need to be eradicated. It's depressing that anyone thinks that would work, but more depressing anyone thinks that way at all.

    I know that the majority of Muslims are just like anyone else and want to live their life, but I yet to see mass demonstration of anti-terrorism/extremism by the different Muslim communities around the world, only deafening silence or weak condemnation to fulfil one's obligation.

    So it happens the 99% of Muslims are just like anybody else, but also 99% of the terrorist acts around the world are done by Muslims. And this is not just in Manchester, it also happens in ON DAILY BASIS in Libya, Afghanistan, Syria, India, Yemen, The Philippines, Cameron, Pakistan, Nigeria, to name a few...

    So yeah, maybe Muslims in western countries are more liberal, but the fact remains that half of the world is suffering from groups who daily mass murder and perform ethnic cleansing, with the banner of Islam.


    As I see it, all the three monotheistic religions are violent, if you take them by the book. But while all of the Christian countries are democratic/secular/or non-theocratic, and Judaism doesn't believe in 'by the book' but in the 'Halacha' - much later Interpretation of bible which is more liberal and adopted to the modern world, I don't sure that the Islam has gone such process.


  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 2,108

    There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" program. I was not suggesting that people who cannot work due to medical conditions of their own or a close relative be made to take job training. Of course, things aren't like they were a few years ago--no one gets 99 weeks of unemployment benefits any more (as far as I know--I need to double-check that).

    Social Security....well, the people who are collecting on it now paid into the system so they receive the benefits they are due. I highly doubt it will exist by the time I get around to facing retirement so I am not counting on it at all even though I am still paying into that system, myself.

    I was really just trying to highlight the fact that there are options out there for people only they may be unaware of them or unaware of how little they actually cost. Not that I can do it right now but if I knew someone who was really wanting to make their life situation better by getting a computer-related job I wouldn't mind fronting the $1,000 to enroll them in a community college out of my own pocket and I wouldn't expect them to pay me back, either.

    @Mathsorcerer Fair enough - thank you for the clarification and explanation.

    Speaking of community college, I just got my student loans paid off. It's tempting to go back to college although that may very well leave me in the same situation (with a debt I ultimately couldn't pay off without assistance). OTOH I might be more employable at a better job. Who knows?

    Sorry not trying to sidetrack the politics with my possible education plans. It just crossed my mind.
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