Where to start... There's too many topics to cover in just the last 2 pages. Also no-one likes long posts, so I'll try to be brief.
Abortion issue is a very interesting one, coming from England I've always been very pro-choice, then I also believe we are all born the same and our experiences make us different... Therefore is an unborn baby with no experiences actually alive? Now im in Brazil, abortion is illegal. Most people I've met here disagree with abortion, but also disagree with in being illegal. With my fiance pregnant and seeing the first ultrasound...tiny legs, arms, head.. Im beginning to question my previous thoughts on when life starts.
Someone mentioned USA can't bring peace to Korea... While I agree, I also ironically disagree. Perhaps they can bring peace... By removing all military and influence in the area.
Trump ... immigration... Well I think after he was elected, things like this shouldn't surprise. But back then, like now, declaration millions of voters are stupid doesn't help. It's better to at least try to understand the thinking and rationale behind it. Taking children away from asylum seekers clearly needs immediate investigation and potentially international court involvement. A lot of so called "developed" countries have a lot to answer for, breaking up families and people's freedom to marry, in the name of immigration. Good leaders need to address immigration because millions of people worry about it, but they also need to remember these people are not criminals and are human.
Lastly... The hero, illegal immigrant, probably not Muslim.... Like others have said "Christians" have murdered millions, "Muslims" have murdered millions...as well as pretty much all religions through history. The truth is a good Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist etc... is not capable of murder. Therefore these murderers are not true to their religion and likewise terrorists like Islamic state are not truly Muslim.
He took and sold land that belonged to jews that died in the holocaust. Illegally claimed it. How did the Nazis give it to him if he and his family are jews, unless they made a deal with them.
Oh for Christ's sake, really?? A 14-year old kid is supposed to willingly reveal himself over to a death squad to prove some kind of point that would be made 50 years in the future?? This requires such a stunningly superficial understanding of what it took to survive during the Holocaust that it almost defies belief. Where is ANY evidence the Nazis gave him land?? This entire conspiracy plays into a obvious theme, which is "look at these shifty Jews who survived the Holocaust". This is black helicopter stuff.
Beyond that, when you hear someone on the right talk about "George Soros", it's usually simply a stand-in for the word "Jew", much like the word "thug" has become a substitution for the n-word.
The best part of that video is the ending, which advertises a book by convicted felon Dinesh D'souza.
Oh for Christ's sake, really?? A 14-year old kid is supposed to willingly turn himself over to a death squad to prove some kind of point that would be made 50 years in the future?? This requires such a stunningly superficial understanding of what it took to survive during the Holocaust that it almost defies belief. Where is ANY evidence the Nazis gave him land??
Beyond that, when you hear someone on the right talk about "George Soros", it's usually simply a stand-in for the word "Jew", much like the word "thug" has become a substitution for the n-word.
The best part of that video is the ending, which advertises a book by convicted felon Dinesh D'souza.
Did you even hear what he said about claiming the land? Also I do not condone the actions, or thoughts, of the video maker.
Oh for Christ's sake, really?? A 14-year old kid is supposed to willingly turn himself over to a death squad to prove some kind of point that would be made 50 years in the future?? This requires such a stunningly superficial understanding of what it took to survive during the Holocaust that it almost defies belief. Where is ANY evidence the Nazis gave him land??
Beyond that, when you hear someone on the right talk about "George Soros", it's usually simply a stand-in for the word "Jew", much like the word "thug" has become a substitution for the n-word.
The best part of that video is the ending, which advertises a book by convicted felon Dinesh D'souza.
Did you even hear what he said about claiming the land? Also I do not condone the actions, or thoughts, of the video maker.
I just watched the whole video and there isn't a single word about claiming land. From the previously linked article:
The lie that Soros collaborated with the Nazis stems from several weeks that he spent with a Hungarian official when he was 14 — a stay that his father arranged to protect his son. Most of the time was spent in the official’s apartment, but Soros accompanied the official, who supervised the confiscation of Jewish property after families were deported, on a single outing. The official introduced Soros as his godson and Soros did not participate in the inventory taking.
Soros also served two days as a courier for the Judenrat until his father learned that his job was to deliver deportation notices to Jews. That account comes from a book written by Soros’ father, who also noted that Soros warned the recipients not to turn up to the designated address.
That’s pretty much it, except that the folks peddling this account also twist Soros’ self-examination of how he as a boy reacted to the Nazi occupation into claims that he enjoyed it. Snopes has the full dismantling here.
Much of the conspiracists’ case against Soros is based on an interview with “60 Minutes” in which the billionaire said he didn’t feel guilty for the sometimes cold-blooded passivity demanded of a child who hoped to survive genocide.
“To hold a young boy responsible for what was going on around him during the Holocaust as part of a larger effort to denigrate the man is repugnant,” Abraham Foxman, then the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said in 2010, when it was talk show host Glenn Beck who was peddling the lie.
The problem with the Soros as Nazi collaborator falsehood is that, however inadvertently, it corresponds with a form of Holocaust denial that removes agency for the genocide from the Nazis and places it with their Jewish victims.
Snopes also broke the whole thing down, but who knows, they may be Jewish Nazi collaborators as well.....
I am constantly told by my relatives on my mom's side what it was like to live during the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. Also how it was in Mediterranean countries. Where hiding one Jew made the Nazis raze entire villages to the ground.
He and his family took land from dead Jews that was given to him by Nazis. Did he give up Jews, don't know but he and his family took the land.
Info wars and other alternative media sites try to blur lines and cause chaos. Making things that have truth and twisting them with false info so you can't believe what is said. Alex Jones is a provocateur that makes stories for the highest bidder, even George Soros.
Unfortunately this is the world we live in now. we chose sides based on our political ideologies. Soros is considered a philanthropist by the left leaners and a POS by everyone else.
He and his family took land from dead Jews that was given to him by Nazis. Did he give up Jews, don't know but he and his family took the land.
Mind providing a source for that? (Ideally, not a conservative media outlet based one) - and just to head this possible line of reasoning off: the video clip you linked before does not confirm this at all. Just that he was forced to be around his "godfather" while his "godfather" was doing Nazi things.
He and his family took land from dead Jews that was given to him by Nazis. Did he give up Jews, don't know but he and his family took the land.
Mind providing a source for that? (Ideally, not a conservative media outlet based one) - and just to head this possible line of reasoning off: the video clip you linked before does not confirm this at all. Just that he was forced to be around his "godfather" while his "godfather" was doing Nazi things.
His Godfather is his family. His family "Godfather" took the land. Pretty simple actually.
I will not argue with you about anyone's sins. I will talk about how Soros and his family took land that was given to them by Nazis from Jews killed in the Holocaust.
It wasn't even his actual family member. Again, his father HID him with this Hungarian official who happened to have the job of inventorying confiscated property from Jews. His father then moved him again after a few weeks fearing his son would be exposed. There is zero evidence anywhere in this discussion that the Soros family received any land. Are you implying that the Nazis confiscated Jewish land and then just turned around and gave it to other Jews?? This whole conversation isn't even taking place in the realm of reality. Read the Snopes article. What you are saying is total fantasy. I honestly don't know where this "land" fallacy is coming from. The Hungarian official was taking inventory of property of Jewish estates, not seizing land and then dispensing it. What this conversation should prove is just how bat-shit crazy the right-wing conspiracy factory is, and how pervasively they have infiltrated mainstream thought. This is nuts.
In Greece as also in Nazi Germany, collaborators where given Land, property and Titles. This is reality.
I would like you to retract the statement about "realm of reality" and "What you are saying is total fantasy". You are being dismissive. If you would like to be educated on what happened to people during WW2 I would be ecstatic to educate you because of my firsthand knowledge from my Jewish and Hellenic background. I can even provide photographs as visual aids. You can PM me and we can set a date.
If you do not wish too then I hope you educate yourself on Nazi land distribution during WW2.
As I have said before, let's not dismiss other forumites as crazy or imply that they are uneducated. This is a thread about politics, not about the intelligence or awareness of other forumites.
In Greece as also in Nazi Germany, collaborators where given Land, property and Titles. This is reality.
I would like you to retract the statement about "realm of reality" and "What you are saying is total fantasy". You are being dismissive. If you would like to be educated on what happened to people during WW2 I would be ecstatic to educate you because of my firsthand knowledge from my Jewish and Hellenic background. I can even provide photographs as visual aids. You can PM me and we can set a date.
If you do not wish too then I hope you educate yourself on Nazi land distribution during WW2.
That isn't even what we are talking about, you are insisting that a specific Jewish family (in this case I would assume Soros' father) was given land by Nazis for collaborating with them. The only "evidence" that is provided of this is the fact that Soros, as a 14-year old child, was hidden with a Hungarian official for a matter of weeks who participated in the inventory of items at a large Jewish estate. Despite the insistence that this is what happened, not a single piece of even tangential or circumstantial evidence has been presented to back up this claim. In the meantime, I have provided a Snopes article that goes into exhaustive detail about these events.
I will not argue with you about anyone's sins. I will talk about how Soros and his family took land that was given to them by Nazis from Jews killed in the Holocaust.
(Those are the sins in question, and you still havent provided specific sourcing to this particular claim. I'm sure you have plenty of interesting anecdotal evidence relating occupations in Greece - but unfortunately unless there's a particular and direct link vis a vis your claim about Soros, it's kind of totally besides the point).
I hope this is anecdotal enough for ya? Educate yourself by reading the whole thing or scroll down to "The Holocaust in Greece".
How do you even make a statement like " anecdotal evidence relating occupations in Greece". Do you even History? Germany wasn't there? They weren't chasing Jews?
I do not have proof that Soros and his family took the land but where there's smoke, there's fire. Also people talking about him being a Nazi collaborator is not new news. He's been accused of this from the 70's way before Trump became president. But of course nobody gave a shit if they weren't a Jew, you know cause it was a Jewish thang, now it's cool to debunk Alex Jones and the truth gets thrown out with the bath water.
I hope this is anecdotal enough for ya? Educate yourself by reading the whole thing or scroll down to "The Holocaust in Greece".
How do you even make a statement like " anecdotal evidence relating occupations in Greece". Do you even History? Germany wasn't there? They weren't chasing Jews?
Sigh. You've totally misunderstood my posts.
A bit of exposition: - I have a degree in history. I studied it at university. Trust me. I "history"
I wasnt suggesting that Greece wasnt occupied. I wasnt denying it happened. I'm rather familiar with the topic (Not so much the ins and outs of Greece off hand, but I did take a number of classes on the early 20th century and this period of time in particular).
I was pointing out that it has *nothing* to do with Nazi confiscation of property in Hungary, and anything relating to George Soros. When you were confronted earlier in the evening about your claims to Soros, you responded with a non-sequitur about Greece.
I do not have proof that Soros and his family took the land but where there's smoke, there's fire. Also people talking about him being a Nazi collaborator is not new news. He's been accused of this from the 70's way before Trump became president. But of course nobody gave a shit if they weren't a Jew, you know cause it was a Jewish thang, now it's cool to debunk Alex Jones and the truth gets thrown out with the bath water.
I do not have proof that Soros and his family took the land but where there's smoke, there's fire. Also people talking about him being a Nazi collaborator is not new news. He's been accused of this from the 70's way before Trump became president. But of course nobody gave a shit if they weren't a Jew, you know cause it was a Jewish thang, now it's cool to debunk Alex Jones and the truth gets thrown out with the bath water.
@TakisMegas the problem with this is that there needs to be smoke in the first place. We've referred to a number of long-running conspiracy theories in this thread. It is not necessary for there to be any evidence at all for a story for it to continue to run - all that is necessary is for influential people to keep plugging the story and for the story to fit with a narrative that many people wish to believe. An example of this type of story would be the 'birther' controversy over Obama.
Since you referred to Alex Jones perhaps I should also mention 'Pizzagate'. That was a less long-running story (though I wouldn't be surprised if it still pops up in the future) about a paedophile ring operating from the basement of a pizza restaurant in Washington. Alex Jones heavily promoted the story and perhaps his journalistic credentials are best assessed by considering the fact that the restaurant in question doesn't even have a basement.
The Pizzagate story illustrates how little regard Alex Jones has for the truth. He's willing to tell blatant lies in order to fit in with his political views. Another example of this in specific regard to George Soros would be Jones' claim that Soros (and Hillary Clinton) conspired to incite the violence last year in Charlottesville. Here's a debunking of that claim showing there's no shred of truth in it.
People posting in this thread generally accept that it's reasonable to expect to have to provide evidence for their views. Do you have any evidence that Soros was a Nazi collaborator beyond the fact that certain people have claimed this is the case?
People posting in this thread generally accept that it's reasonable to expect to have to provide evidence for their views.
True. The Site Rules don't require it, but it has become a basic standard of this thread. Theories without concrete grounding don't generally get taken seriously here.
The inverse case would be scam 'doctor's' clinics in India and some other places where women are told that their babies will be girls (boys are preferred in Hindu culture of course) or have some kind of birth defect in order to encourage them to have an abortion at that clinic. Usually the ultrasound machine is fake...
I think the "where there is smoke, there is fire" claim rather troubling when applied like this to a Jewish billionaire and when the smoke is coming from the right. Especially when you claim historical expertise you should know how far back the roots of anti-semitism go. There has always been a lot of smokes about the Jews... and other minorities like gypsies, gays, etc.
I certainly haven't seen a credible source regarding this supposed collaboration; if anything, it seems like his family saved people.
As for Alex Jones and Info Wars being for the highest bidder (including Soros), this seems like more forced "both sides are the same". Let's be honest here: Trump and many other Republicans would offer incredibly rich pickings to conspiracy nuts. But it is clear that Jones is a rightist conspiracy nut and not just a mercenary.
A lot of people second guess abortion after seeing the ultrasound fo their own child.
Some probably do, but are there reliable numbers? I know that neither me nor my wife second-guessed the right to have an abortion because of seeing the ultrasounds of our two kids (which were both wanted and kept).
And the other side of the coin, is that a lot of people suddenly think abortion is ok when they (or their daughter, girlfriend or other loved one) needs one. The "the only moral abortion is my abortion" crowd is very real.
I am not a Republican. I am not a Democrat. I loath Alex Jones. I do not like pizza.
There's a decent meeting of minds then. I am also not a Republican or a Democrat and loath Alex Jones - I do quite like pizza, however .
On the substantive point I made though I don't think it is (or should be) important to this thread what your political beliefs are. I do think though it is important that people should be prepared to give reasons for their statements. In some cases that can become slightly philosophical - when arguing the merits of political systems that have never actually been tried in practice for instance. When statements relate to a question of fact, however, it's reasonable to expect that claims made can be backed by evidence.
Abortion has many different aspects and many reasons, some clearly more important than others. But assuming the only reason is family planning, then thinking about when life truly starts becomes important. When studying philosophy and psychology in school, it's easy to form an opinion that life starts from birth, but when seeing it up close and personal on the ultrasound of your own future child, the thought that life hasn't truly begun yet, doesn't feel right any more. That's why I agreed with what @ThacoBell said.
Comments
Abortion issue is a very interesting one, coming from England I've always been very pro-choice, then I also believe we are all born the same and our experiences make us different... Therefore is an unborn baby with no experiences actually alive? Now im in Brazil, abortion is illegal. Most people I've met here disagree with abortion, but also disagree with in being illegal. With my fiance pregnant and seeing the first ultrasound...tiny legs, arms, head.. Im beginning to question my previous thoughts on when life starts.
Someone mentioned USA can't bring peace to Korea... While I agree, I also ironically disagree. Perhaps they can bring peace... By removing all military and influence in the area.
Trump ... immigration... Well I think after he was elected, things like this shouldn't surprise. But back then, like now, declaration millions of voters are stupid doesn't help. It's better to at least try to understand the thinking and rationale behind it. Taking children away from asylum seekers clearly needs immediate investigation and potentially international court involvement. A lot of so called "developed" countries have a lot to answer for, breaking up families and people's freedom to marry, in the name of immigration. Good leaders need to address immigration because millions of people worry about it, but they also need to remember these people are not criminals and are human.
Lastly... The hero, illegal immigrant, probably not Muslim.... Like others have said "Christians" have murdered millions, "Muslims" have murdered millions...as well as pretty much all religions through history. The truth is a good Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist etc... is not capable of murder. Therefore these murderers are not true to their religion and likewise terrorists like Islamic state are not truly Muslim.
This article from the Jewish Telegraph Agency explains it.
https://www.jta.org/2018/05/29/arts-entertainment/roseannes-problematic-tweet-george-soros
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseanne_Barr
He took and sold land that belonged to jews that died in the holocaust. Illegally claimed it. How did the Nazis give it to him if he and his family are jews, unless they made a deal with them.
Beyond that, when you hear someone on the right talk about "George Soros", it's usually simply a stand-in for the word "Jew", much like the word "thug" has become a substitution for the n-word.
The best part of that video is the ending, which advertises a book by convicted felon Dinesh D'souza.
The lie that Soros collaborated with the Nazis stems from several weeks that he spent with a Hungarian official when he was 14 — a stay that his father arranged to protect his son. Most of the time was spent in the official’s apartment, but Soros accompanied the official, who supervised the confiscation of Jewish property after families were deported, on a single outing. The official introduced Soros as his godson and Soros did not participate in the inventory taking.
Soros also served two days as a courier for the Judenrat until his father learned that his job was to deliver deportation notices to Jews. That account comes from a book written by Soros’ father, who also noted that Soros warned the recipients not to turn up to the designated address.
That’s pretty much it, except that the folks peddling this account also twist Soros’ self-examination of how he as a boy reacted to the Nazi occupation into claims that he enjoyed it. Snopes has the full dismantling here.
Much of the conspiracists’ case against Soros is based on an interview with “60 Minutes” in which the billionaire said he didn’t feel guilty for the sometimes cold-blooded passivity demanded of a child who hoped to survive genocide.
“To hold a young boy responsible for what was going on around him during the Holocaust as part of a larger effort to denigrate the man is repugnant,” Abraham Foxman, then the national director of the Anti-Defamation League, said in 2010, when it was talk show host Glenn Beck who was peddling the lie.
The problem with the Soros as Nazi collaborator falsehood is that, however inadvertently, it corresponds with a form of Holocaust denial that removes agency for the genocide from the Nazis and places it with their Jewish victims.
Snopes also broke the whole thing down, but who knows, they may be Jewish Nazi collaborators as well.....
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/george-soros-ss-nazi-germany/
I am constantly told by my relatives on my mom's side what it was like to live during the Holocaust in Nazi Germany. Also how it was in Mediterranean countries. Where hiding one Jew made the Nazis raze entire villages to the ground.
He and his family took land from dead Jews that was given to him by Nazis. Did he give up Jews, don't know but he and his family took the land.
Info wars and other alternative media sites try to blur lines and cause chaos. Making things that have truth and twisting them with false info so you can't believe what is said. Alex Jones is a provocateur that makes stories for the highest bidder, even George Soros.
Unfortunately this is the world we live in now. we chose sides based on our political ideologies. Soros is considered a philanthropist by the left leaners and a POS by everyone else.
Wait - so your argument is "Sins of the (god)father"? and that's why I'm supposed to conflate him with the Nazi regime? That's a hell of a reach.
Do you believe you should personally be responsible for every crappy thing your father/mother/siblings/godparents/grandparents/aunts/uncles did?
I will not argue with you about anyone's sins. I will talk about how Soros and his family took land that was given to them by Nazis from Jews killed in the Holocaust.
In Greece as also in Nazi Germany, collaborators where given Land, property and Titles. This is reality.
I would like you to retract the statement about "realm of reality" and "What you are saying is total fantasy". You are being dismissive. If you would like to be educated on what happened to people during WW2 I would be ecstatic to educate you because of my firsthand knowledge from my Jewish and Hellenic background. I can even provide photographs as visual aids. You can PM me and we can set a date.
If you do not wish too then I hope you educate yourself on Nazi land distribution during WW2.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Greece
I hope this is anecdotal enough for ya? Educate yourself by reading the whole thing or scroll down to "The Holocaust in Greece".
How do you even make a statement like " anecdotal evidence relating occupations in Greece". Do you even History? Germany wasn't there? They weren't chasing Jews?
I do not have proof that Soros and his family took the land but where there's smoke, there's fire. Also people talking about him being a Nazi collaborator is not new news. He's been accused of this from the 70's way before Trump became president. But of course nobody gave a shit if they weren't a Jew, you know cause it was a Jewish thang, now it's cool to debunk Alex Jones and the truth gets thrown out with the bath water.
A bit of exposition: - I have a degree in history. I studied it at university. Trust me. I "history"
I wasnt suggesting that Greece wasnt occupied. I wasnt denying it happened. I'm rather familiar with the topic (Not so much the ins and outs of Greece off hand, but I did take a number of classes on the early 20th century and this period of time in particular).
I was pointing out that it has *nothing* to do with Nazi confiscation of property in Hungary, and anything relating to George Soros. When you were confronted earlier in the evening about your claims to Soros, you responded with a non-sequitur about Greece. Mmm. Okay. I think I see where this has ended up.
Thanks for the conversation.
I also extend my invitation to you. If you would like me to help you expand your knowledge of WW2, including visual aids, then I implore you to PM me.
If not, all the best.
Since you referred to Alex Jones perhaps I should also mention 'Pizzagate'. That was a less long-running story (though I wouldn't be surprised if it still pops up in the future) about a paedophile ring operating from the basement of a pizza restaurant in Washington. Alex Jones heavily promoted the story and perhaps his journalistic credentials are best assessed by considering the fact that the restaurant in question doesn't even have a basement.
The Pizzagate story illustrates how little regard Alex Jones has for the truth. He's willing to tell blatant lies in order to fit in with his political views. Another example of this in specific regard to George Soros would be Jones' claim that Soros (and Hillary Clinton) conspired to incite the violence last year in Charlottesville. Here's a debunking of that claim showing there's no shred of truth in it.
People posting in this thread generally accept that it's reasonable to expect to have to provide evidence for their views. Do you have any evidence that Soros was a Nazi collaborator beyond the fact that certain people have claimed this is the case?
I am not a Republican. I am not a Democrat. I loath Alex Jones. I do not like pizza.
I certainly haven't seen a credible source regarding this supposed collaboration; if anything, it seems like his family saved people.
As for Alex Jones and Info Wars being for the highest bidder (including Soros), this seems like more forced "both sides are the same". Let's be honest here: Trump and many other Republicans would offer incredibly rich pickings to conspiracy nuts. But it is clear that Jones is a rightist conspiracy nut and not just a mercenary.
And the other side of the coin, is that a lot of people suddenly think abortion is ok when they (or their daughter, girlfriend or other loved one) needs one. The "the only moral abortion is my abortion" crowd is very real.
On the substantive point I made though I don't think it is (or should be) important to this thread what your political beliefs are. I do think though it is important that people should be prepared to give reasons for their statements. In some cases that can become slightly philosophical - when arguing the merits of political systems that have never actually been tried in practice for instance. When statements relate to a question of fact, however, it's reasonable to expect that claims made can be backed by evidence.
Abortion has many different aspects and many reasons, some clearly more important than others. But assuming the only reason is family planning, then thinking about when life truly starts becomes important. When studying philosophy and psychology in school, it's easy to form an opinion that life starts from birth, but when seeing it up close and personal on the ultrasound of your own future child, the thought that life hasn't truly begun yet, doesn't feel right any more. That's why I agreed with what @ThacoBell said.