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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2018
    Matthieu said:

    Yeah, India would be a fit replacement for Russia and Australia for Italy.

    However Italy does have the potential for recovery. It's issues are caused by mismanagement, these can be fixed but I don't see it happening soon.

    When I stayed there in 2000 they were mismanaged. Berlusconi, who made something of a comeback this last election, was a joke. I mean I wasn't super deep in Italian politics but you could tell things weren't great. It seemed he was a liar, philanderer and a conman ( like Trump but with less of an ugly personality ).

    So close to 20 years of mismanagement and the government they just voted in doesn't seem very trustworthy either.

    They were the only other country besides the US that supported Russia to be reinstated.

    I'm thinking Italy is pretty much not moving up from 2nd-3rd tier country any time soon. The US is headed towards 2nd tier speeding faster due to Trump but still a ways off.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2018
    Trump is making a mockery out of the US at this summit. It's an absolute travesty. It is going to take decades to repair this.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited June 2018
    what are you talking about? he looks like a total boss on that photo, Everyone Wants A Piece Of Trump woot!!!

    He's making them ALL Look Like Babies !! ! !. . !
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    It won't take a decade and he isn't making a mockery of the US, he's making a mockery of himself.
    Once he's replaced, things will be back to normal.

    Anyone who uses a phrase like "no tariffs, no barriers, even no subsidies" when talking about trade, shows they know nothing about the practise.

    Him showing up late for a meeting was also unprofessional. It was definitely a "look a me!" moment for him.

    This should have been his practise run for Singapore on how to conduct himself with multiple world leaders present. He failed horribly at it. Singapore is going to be a bigger disaster.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    deltago said:

    It won't take a decade and he isn't making a mockery of the US, he's making a mockery of himself.
    Once he's replaced, things will be back to normal.

    Anyone who uses a phrase like "no tariffs, no barriers, even no subsidies" when talking about trade, shows they know nothing about the practise.

    Him showing up late for a meeting was also unprofessional. It was definitely a "look a me!" moment for him.

    This should have been his practise run for Singapore on how to conduct himself with multiple world leaders present. He failed horribly at it. Singapore is going to be a bigger disaster.

    Singapore won't be a disaster because it's just him and another dictator. They both want the same thing - to lie about how much they like each other and peace is great. A photo op.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2018
    The birth pangs of the American Gestapo. Keep in mind that this man and his family were applying for asylum, NOT sneaking into the country:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-family-was-separated-at-the-border-and-this-distraught-father-took-his-own-life/2018/06/08/24e40b70-6b5d-11e8-9e38-24e693b38637_story.html?utm_term=.d4cd8dc629e2

    The comment from the border agent at the end of the article shows a stunning lack of empathy and human compassion, but I don't know why we should be surprised, because ICE and the border patrol are turning into nothing more than fascist stormtroopers. Pretty soon we are going to start hearing about yellow badges on clothing in detention centers.

    Also, can we just tear down the Statue of Liberty and send it back to France, or any other country that will have it?? Because having it on American soil is just making a mockery of the words engraved upon it.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    The birth pangs of the American Gestapo. Keep in mind that this man and his family were applying for asylum, NOT sneaking into the country:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/a-family-was-separated-at-the-border-and-this-distraught-father-took-his-own-life/2018/06/08/24e40b70-6b5d-11e8-9e38-24e693b38637_story.html?utm_term=.d4cd8dc629e2

    The comment from the border agent at the end of the article shows a stunning lack of empathy and human compassion, but I don't know why we should be surprised, because ICE and the border patrol are turning into nothing more than fascist stormtroopers. Pretty soon we are going to start hearing about yellow badges on clothing in detention centers.

    I don't recall Jews or gypsies trying to sneak INTO Germany during the Nazi regime. I really think you're exaggerating this 'oh look we're going to be fascist if you don't vote Democratic' thing. It actually takes away from your argument imho.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2018
    Balrog99 said:


    I don't recall Jews or gypsies trying to sneak INTO Germany during the Nazi regime. I really think you're exaggerating this 'oh look we're going to be fascist if you don't vote Democratic' thing. It actually takes away from your argument imho.

    Look at this toddler
    fluke13 said:

    G7 ...no words needed, this picture says everything...


    Trump would rather be pals with China and Russia. He's got a childs understanding of the world. A mean child. He's attacking Canada. Unthinkable.

    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.

    This is becoming normalized.

    Trump doesn't fit in with France, Britain, Canada. He fits in with Duterte, Xi, and Putin. This is where he's trying to take America. You want to go along for that ride? No big deal?
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    edited June 2018
    So it looks like Trump threw another tantrum after he didn't get what he wanted at G7 as predicted.

    He's not endorsing the Communique that was predetermined at the G7 he left early. What's in the Communique?
    Just Gender equality, climate change commitments (including cleaning the ocean) and enforcing existing international rules when it comes to trade.

    I ask anyone to read the document and tell me what exactly the U.S. opposes from it. It is basically a fluff feel good piece. Maybe point 17. Who knows.

    He is now, as I said early, wanting to place a tariff on Automobiles (so much for his no tariffs /barriers /subsidies talk).

    Trudeau acted "meek and mild" which to me, sounds like professional and Trump was angry that Trudeau still says the Tariffs are insulting at the closing (the part Trump didn't stick around for) press conference.

    And this is the person who is going to Singapore to hammer out a deal with a country that doesn't trust the US? The same person who now backed out of two public international agreements within 2 months.

    Good Luck.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    Balrog99 said:


    I don't recall Jews or gypsies trying to sneak INTO Germany during the Nazi regime. I really think you're exaggerating this 'oh look we're going to be fascist if you don't vote Democratic' thing. It actually takes away from your argument imho.

    Look at this toddler
    fluke13 said:

    G7 ...no words needed, this picture says everything...


    Trump would rather be pals with China and Russia. He's got a childs understanding of the world. A mean child. He's attacking Canada. Unthinkable.

    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.

    This is becoming normalized.

    Trump doesn't fit in with France, Britain, Canada. He fits in with Duterte, Xi, and Putin. This is where he's trying to take America. You want to go along for that ride? No big deal?
    I'm not exactly sure what you expect me to see in this picture. Without some kind of context or audio of what they're talking about it's meaningless.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2018
    Balrog99 said:

    Balrog99 said:


    I don't recall Jews or gypsies trying to sneak INTO Germany during the Nazi regime. I really think you're exaggerating this 'oh look we're going to be fascist if you don't vote Democratic' thing. It actually takes away from your argument imho.

    Look at this toddler
    fluke13 said:

    G7 ...no words needed, this picture says everything...


    Trump would rather be pals with China and Russia. He's got a childs understanding of the world. A mean child. He's attacking Canada. Unthinkable.

    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.

    This is becoming normalized.

    Trump doesn't fit in with France, Britain, Canada. He fits in with Duterte, Xi, and Putin. This is where he's trying to take America. You want to go along for that ride? No big deal?
    I'm not exactly sure what you expect me to see in this picture. Without some kind of context or audio of what they're talking about it's meaningless.
    The context is in the post above yours. The picture is when he's building up his widdle temper tantrum.

    So he's off to meet Kim Jong Un and smile and be lovey dovey after insulting Canada. Not normal. Everything he does is not normal, many people are saying he's a crazy, egomaniac, liar, wanna be dictator. Bigly.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    Balrog99 said:

    Balrog99 said:


    I don't recall Jews or gypsies trying to sneak INTO Germany during the Nazi regime. I really think you're exaggerating this 'oh look we're going to be fascist if you don't vote Democratic' thing. It actually takes away from your argument imho.

    Look at this toddler
    fluke13 said:

    G7 ...no words needed, this picture says everything...


    Trump would rather be pals with China and Russia. He's got a childs understanding of the world. A mean child. He's attacking Canada. Unthinkable.

    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.
    This is not normal.

    This is becoming normalized.

    Trump doesn't fit in with France, Britain, Canada. He fits in with Duterte, Xi, and Putin. This is where he's trying to take America. You want to go along for that ride? No big deal?
    I'm not exactly sure what you expect me to see in this picture. Without some kind of context or audio of what they're talking about it's meaningless.
    The context is in the post above yours. The picture is when he's building up his widdle temper tantrum.

    So he's off to meet Kim Jong Un and smile and be lovey dovey after insulting Canada. Not normal. Everything he does is not normal, many people are saying he's a crazy, egomaniac, liar, wanna be dictator. Bigly.
    Many people you're listening to are saying this. Many other people are saying that he's crazy like a fox. The whole point of voting for Trump was that he wasn't going to be normal. People are tired of normal. I'm still on the fence myself. He pisses me off sometimes and other times I feel like, finally somebody is doing something about this! I have no idea how intelligent he is, but he does seem to cut through bullshit like a vorpal blade.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,388
    deltago said:

    So it looks like Trump threw another tantrum after he didn't get what he wanted at G7 as predicted.

    He's not endorsing the Communique that was predetermined at the G7 he left early. What's in the Communique?
    Just Gender equality, climate change commitments (including cleaning the ocean) and enforcing existing international rules when it comes to trade.

    I ask anyone to read the document and tell me what exactly the U.S. opposes from it. It is basically a fluff feel good piece. Maybe point 17. Who knows.

    He is now, as I said early, wanting to place a tariff on Automobiles (so much for his no tariffs /barriers /subsidies talk).

    Trudeau acted "meek and mild" which to me, sounds like professional and Trump was angry that Trudeau still says the Tariffs are insulting at the closing (the part Trump didn't stick around for) press conference.

    And this is the person who is going to Singapore to hammer out a deal with a country that doesn't trust the US? The same person who now backed out of two public international agreements within 2 months.

    Good Luck.

    The official Communique does not have climate change commitments for the G7 - it has commitments by the G6, but the G1 doesn't believe in climate change so obviously was never going to agree to those.

    As for Trudeau, he didn't say that tariffs were insulting, but that using national security as the rationale for those was. That rationale goes:
    - availability of steel and aluminum is vital to a country's national security
    - the US can't rely on allies to continue to provide steel and aluminum in the future, due to the possibility of getting into disputes with former allies.
    I do have some sympathy with the US position on this. Trump is demonstrating just how easily it is possible to get into disputes with former allies ;).
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    If you read the communique, lines 24&25 deal with the G6. And line 26 deals with the US on Climate Change and what they are planning. There is no commitments anywhere in the proposal. Just fluffy guidelines. Line 23 even has "We recognise that each country may chart its own path to achieving a low-emission future," as a nice out for the US recent behaviour.

    As for the national security debate, it's up to WHO to determine if it carries any weight. My money is it being struck down very quickly. Self inflicted national security measures shouldn't punish other nations.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,388
    edited June 2018
    deltago said:

    If you read the communique, lines 24&25 deal with the G6. And line 26 deals with the US on Climate Change and what they are planning. There is no commitments anywhere in the proposal. Just fluffy guidelines. Line 23 even has "We recognise that each country may chart its own path to achieving a low-emission future," as a nice out for the US recent behaviour.

    As for the national security debate, it's up to WHO to determine if it carries any weight. My money is it being struck down very quickly. Self inflicted national security measures shouldn't punish other nations.

    The point I was trying to make was that the G6 have accepted there is climate change: "Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom and the European Union will promote the fight against climate change". The US talks about protecting the environment, but not in the context of climate change: " The United States will continue to promote energy security and economic growth in a manner that improves the health of the world’s oceans and environment". And in that commitment I think it's notable that the main aim is energy security and economic growth - that's consistent with previous statements by Trump that those are the priority when they conflict with environmental aims.

    WHO or WTO? I agree the US tariffs will be struck down, though I don't think the WTO is an organization that moves very quickly and I guess that Trump is hoping that his trade war is won before the dispute process is concluded.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    edited June 2018
    Balrog99 said:



    I don't recall Jews or gypsies trying to sneak INTO Germany during the Nazi regime. I really think you're exaggerating this 'oh look we're going to be fascist if you don't vote Democratic' thing. It actually takes away from your argument imho.

    I'm pretty progressive, and I agree with this. If we resort to pure hyperbole which clouds the truth of certain actions, then our political opponents will do the same, and the truth gets lost.
    Balrog99 said:



    Many people you're listening to are saying this. Many other people are saying that he's crazy like a fox. The whole point of voting for Trump was that he wasn't going to be normal. People are tired of normal. I'm still on the fence myself. He pisses me off sometimes and other times I feel like, finally somebody is doing something about this! I have no idea how intelligent he is, but he does seem to cut through bullshit like a vorpal blade.

    But then I also strongly disagree with this. I dont think Trump cuts through BS, when he's so busy making his own. He lies almost constantly, and calls out anyone trying to correct him as "Fake news". Let's call a spade a spade.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2018
    I cannot even fathom how in the hell we are now in a major dispute with CANADA, of all countries. This national security bullshit is such weak sauce. Someone pointed out on Twitter that on 9/11, 238 US flights were diverted to Canada, where they were allowed to stay and taken care of for days. Apparently a town called Gander took in 7000 people alone. Here is the story:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/on-sept-11-a-tiny-canadian-town-opened-its-runways-and-heart-to-7000-stranded-travelers/2016/09/08/89d875da-75e5-11e6-8149-b8d05321db62_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.9829c46a1c73

    Here is a story about the time Canadian fighter jets filled in for our air defenses:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/canadian-fighter-jets-temporarily-fill-in-for-u-s-air-defences-1.635315

    Let's review Trump's dick-waving on the world stage. He has unilaterally pulled out of the Paris Accords. He scrapped the Iran deal, putting them back on the path to a nuclear weapon, against the wishes of EVERY other country involved. He has deliberately started a trade war with China, Mexico, the entire EU, and Canada. He shows up late to a meeting at the G7, and then leaves the conference early, en route to what will almost assuredly be a complete disaster of a meeting with the dictator of North Korea, a country who has been seeking the validation of a face to face meeting with sitting US President for decades. And based on comments in the last 24 hours, he seems to flat-out SUPPORT the Russian annexation of Crimea, but I think at this point we all know why that is.

    As for that picture circulating today, Trump, in his infinite stupidity, probably thinks he looks like he's in charge of something in that situation. He isn't. He looks like a goddamn toddler who won't lay down for their nap.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited June 2018
    I don't think Trump is crazy like a fox. Considering how much he complains about events both at home and abroad, I get the feeling that most things aren't going his way and he doesn't know how to change it. I don't see Trump "winning" when he returns home empty-handed and grouses about how unfair the rest of the world is being to us.

    A guy who's masterfully controlling the world and manipulating people into doing what he wants--which is how some of his supporters view him--is generally not the type of guy who would complain about people doing stuff he doesn't want them to.

    Imagine a hypnotist who complains that people these days aren't responding to the power of suggestion, or a manager who says that his employees are unmanageable. Those aren't signs of successful influence.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    I didn't say that I think Trump is crazy like a fox. I said that 'many others' think so. I'm in an almost unique position on this forum that I can see. I was brought up fundamentalist Christian but by the way my brain works I became a scientist. I get both sides of the story regularly. I even watch both CNN and Fox News probably because I can't make up my f'ing mind one way or the other.

    I'm a fiscal conservative and Libertarian by nature but reading all the articles and posts on this forum I'll admit that I'm nearly convinced about the need for universal healthcare. That may in large part be because I paid off my house last year and my financial situation is much better however...
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2018
    Trump's aides were there working, on orders of the United States Government (presumably including the office of the President) for days ahead of this summit on the agreement.

    And Trump blunders in late and leave early and doesn't sign it. While doing so he threw more shade at Canada that he will throw at Kim Jong Un who he'll describe as a "nice guy" no doubt and he spends his one second sizing him up. Thats what he says he'll do that's his whole preparation. Definitely not crazy like a fox.

    He's crazy like your Alcoholic Uncle - you never know what you're going to get but you can assume he's going to be unpleasant.

    He says he's the "only one that matters". That's because he just wings it. Changes his mind does whatever he wants, doesn't tell anyone. That's a terrible way to President. The only thing he's consistent about is.... Yeah you know already.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,388
    Just in relation to the tariff dispute and whether the WTO will rule against the US, there is another potential explanation for why the US might believe this won't happen. The WTO adjudicates on disputes using panels of 3 members chosen from a body of 7 agreed by WTO countries. The US has for some time now been refusing to appoint any new members and that body is down to 4 - with a further retirement due in September.

    If the dispute process is unable to function then there's no mechanism to prevent anyone abusing the rules. That would effectively be going a long way to abolishing the WTO itself - which of course could also be Trump's objective given that he doesn't seem to support any international mechanisms beyond bilateral deals.
  • TakisMegasTakisMegas Member Posts: 835
    edited June 2018


    The next time we all want to argue/debate about which world leader is better, please watch this video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7U5JVk_y7U

    ** Warning, some language **
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    very true. And citizens united made things worse as far as politicians being bought off.

    After the Supreme Court ruling Obama said, “With all due deference to separation of powers, last week the Supreme Court reversed a century of law that I believe will open the floodgates for special interests—including foreign corporations—to spend without limit in our elections.” Prophetic but you don't have to be a genius to see that corporations pouring unlimited money at candidates means you are not going to get representatives of the people.

    The next President was Trump. Whose only legislative accomplishment is ramming through the tax bill last year to reward corporations - exactly those business criminals from Wall Street that Carlin is talking about.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,388
    edited June 2018
    I spent some time this morning looking at Trump's complaint about the 270% tariff charged by Canada on US dairy exports. Here's a couple of points of perspective:

    US Census data for 2015 (most recent at 3-digit SITC level of detail) shows:
    - total dairy exports by US to Canada are $826m
    - total dairy imports by US from Canada are $336m
    Using Trump's standard deficit model for Trade wars therefore the US stands to lose nearly $500m by pursuing this dispute.
    {to get to dairy from the spreadsheet on that page I've added up the separate classifications for milk, butter and cheese}

    Trump's tweet complaining about the tariffs said there should be no tariffs and no subsidies. Canada does not provide any subsidies to dairy farmers (instead fixing production quotas and prices to ensure they can make a living). The US (like the EU) heavily subsidizes production. This source reckons that's to the tune of over $20bn annually, though as that was a report commissioned by the Canadian dairy industry I would be very wary of the figures. However, the point is certainly valid that the US dairy industry receives considerable subsidy and produces far more than domestic consumption requires - and rather than reduce production incentives the Trump government sees increasing exports as the solution.

    The Canadian system of supply management is popular in the country (which no doubt is why Trudeau defends it so vigorously). You could argue it's no surprise it's generally popular with farmers given that it provides a far more stable income than is the case for farmers operating in an unregulated market. You could also argue it's no surprise it's popular with politicians (given the influential farming lobby). However, on the face of it you would not expect this policy to be popular with the public and consumer groups as it effectively passes all the costs of supporting the industry onto the consumer through prices (as opposed to using taxes for subsidies as in the US and EU).

    I'd be interested in the perspective of our Canadian posters. However, my impression is that the public also like the stability the current system provides, as well as believing that the system helps underpin high environmental and welfare standards.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    That picture of Trump--sitting down, arms defiantly crossed, attempting to stare down the other world leaders--will actually wind up earning him some votes. I am uncertain if a skilled PR person could have improvised a photo like that. Remember--the other leaders approach meetings like the G7 as if they were a world leader while Trump approaches it from the mindset of a corporate meeting where his company is bigger than yours. He walks into the room with a "me versus you" attitude and, unfortunately, the other world leaders unwittingly played along with him. Ironically, by opposing him they gave him exactly what he wanted--the appearance that even though he is being backed into a corner he will go down fighting.

    *************

    *sigh* The iWatchTexas app allows you to "if you see something say something" by giving citizens the ability to report suspicious activity directly to authorities quickly and quietly from their smart device. This app isn't going to be active for one month before someone reports someone for a trivial reason or, even more unfortunately, for having the wrong skin color.

    *************

    Finally, Lulabel Seitz, valedictorian at Petaluma High School in California, was going to mention the sexual assault she suffered on campus--an attack for which school administrators took absolutely no action whatsoever--when those same administrators cut off her microphone to prevent her from speaking. I can only presume that they think she is supposed to remain silent.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited June 2018
    When you consider that in the last few months, black people in this country have had to police called on them for such horrific criminal activities as

    1.) BBQing in a public park
    2.) Waiting for a friend in a Starbucks
    3.) Walking around with their child in a stroller
    4.) Falling asleep in a dorm commons area at Yale
    5.) Moving into their own apartment
    6.) Staying at an Airbnb and not waving to their overly suspicious neighbor
    7.) Being a real estate investor inspecting a house

    then yeah, I would say it is probably a good bet that that app is a disaster waiting to happen. Those are just incidents I have read about in the last 60 days that got some level of national media attention. As I've said many times before, if you are African-American, your right to do the most mundane everyday activities is constantly questioned, to the point where some people will actually CALL THE POLICE on you. One month?? Hell, I give it 48 hours before there is a SWAT team outside the home of some minority family.

    Here is a decent rule of thumb in chart form:


  • MatthieuMatthieu Member Posts: 386
    bob_veng said:

    what are you talking about? he looks like a total boss on that photo, Everyone Wants A Piece Of Trump woot!!!

    He's making them ALL Look Like Babies !! ! !. . !

    Or like the turbulent kid facing a disciplinary council.
  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 399
    To give more context to that picture, it was an Instagram post from the official account of German Chancellor Angela Merkel. It's supposed to show Merkel being at the forefront of talks to try to resolve differences at the summit. Mrs Merkel apparently floated an idea to set up a mechanism to resolve trade disputes between the US and its allies.

    To be fair to trump, there are genuine problems with the EU not accepting some US products (like steroid meat), subsidising French farms and unfair fees (I was charged £12 handling fees for buying a £20 item from US (eBay). Frustrations with EU trade laws is one of the reasons the UK is leaving. However... The way in which Trump went about is... It could be seen as clever by some, but it is definitely considered unreasonable by America's allies. Here's another picture by Reuters showing a more amicable end to talks.


  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited June 2018

    That picture of Trump--sitting down, arms defiantly crossed, attempting to stare down the other world leaders--will actually wind up earning him some votes. I am uncertain if a skilled PR person could have improvised a photo like that.

    Trumps fans will see what they want in that picture, they are already interpreting what they want from his unintelligible hate filled speeches. Trump blamed Obama for Russia invading Crimea, that will probably make sense to some people as well as Trumps calls to reinstate Russia into G7. To everyone else, Russia invaded, it's Russias fault and in that picture is a stubborn ass with a childish smirk on his face.
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