Isn't the problem with making the Sword & Shield purely defensive that it's pretty hard to get that character be the one who is attacked? I mean, a 50% DR, -45 AC warrior isn't useful if the goblin is wacking on the wizard.
My point is: it's a game simulating fighting. Due to the ruleset, it's quite viable to ignore the melee fighters and go wail on the softies. So, if S&B's selling point is defense, give them a chance to flaunt it and go with your option 3.
Right but off-handing the DoE with another weapon in your main hand should not be the best way to tank.
I think a 1-point bonus to AC is sufficient since there's also another 1 point bonus for the shield itself (or 2 or 3 with Item Revisions). And a second 1-point bonus later on, when you are finding magical shields that give you a 3-5 point boost, it now becomes a 5-7 point boost compared to someone with no shield. That's an enormous bonus. So maybe something like:
(+): -1 AC bonus, shield bash can knock down the closest attacker (++): -2 AC bonus, shield bash can knock down and stun all attackers within 3 feet, with level-scaled saving throw penalties
The biggest problem with SnS is lack of late game viability. SnS is already pretty good early in BG1. However as the game goes on AC usefulness starts to decay swiftly. Shield bash, definitly a handy ability, sadly can´t compete with features of other styles. Especialy that it does not directly help with the main role of the shield wielder - to deflect blows and stay alive.
Early in SoA, shield fightning becomes simply strictly worse than the other styles. Ehen I gave more AC to the style, the break point was postponed to late SoA. Thus the style was about tradeoff - realy powerful early in the saga, while being totaly underwhelming later on.
What I would like to see is the possibility to make the AC bonus scale with level. So early on SnS would not push AC levels beyond sane levels, while with proper balance, shields could actualy help your defense even in ToB. Obviously this is much harder to achieve than chancing the number in 2DA file, but if you are determined to make the bash scale with level, you might as well try to tinker the AC bonus.
Maybe the answer is even simpler than that: simply limit everyone to 1 point at 1st level. That would put warriors at a disadvantage in the very early game, compared to non-warriors. But let's be honest, non-warriors are crap in the early game anyway. Thief can't do anything with their ~30% in thief skills, mages can cast like 2 spells before becoming useless. In essence, everyone is basically a crappy fighter for the first three levels or so. Only from level ~4 on do the various classes start becoming good at what they do.
So why shouldn't the same be true of warriors? Limit them to bare proficiency at level 1, and don't let them specialize until level 3. They'll be stuck at 1 APR, unless they put a point in SWS in which case they would have 3/2.
Oooh, I'm excited about this. Definitely going to code it up and see how it works.
I 100% agree with this. Warriors will still be the best by far at early levels. Also it would be good idea to somehow limit the usefulness of early level styles. Currently single weapon warrior with 15 INT is quite busted (specialization + style, thats +2extra thac0 at level 1 with 3/2 APR, than +1/2APR and extra thac0 every 3rd level until level 9). Try rolling a Bladesinger and go figure. Let´s not forget original BG 1 had no styles at all.
Also I am againts adding more APR to the styles, unless the system gets totaly overhauled. I like the 1/2 extra APR at SwS and would leave it like that. Reasoning: 1) If you add extra APR to all styles you are just effectively nerfing classes and most importantly monsters that do not use styles.
2) If you add more APR only to SwS it will totaly overshadow Two handers.
3) If you add more APR to both to SwS and Two handers you are basicaly doing the same as 1) except that it will further downgrade poor sword and shield.
The point of it would be, it would downgrade dual-wielding. (By comparison.) But this is why shield-fighting would need to be really awesome to compete. .... The assassin in Beregost carries a shield; he could stun your whole party if you're not careful, and annihilate you. (I mean to describe this as a good thing.
Agree on the beregost assassin, the stuns were unpleasant, but luckily he is alone (shield bash + invis potion backstabber would be nasty). The principle sounds good, but the question is how to achieve it. I mean we are trying to balance extra APR here, we need something realy cool.
Also i see a problem - if i understand it correctly the shield bash will trigger only if the enemy overcomes your AC right ? So this could mean that the best way to use shieldbash would be to run high DR, stoneskin/Mirror image/PfMW, + worst AC as possible.
But like I say, I would also remove the extra APR at 7th level. So let's say we allow fighters to begin specialized in one weapon. At 3rd level you could also specialize in a style (which is nice because it would give real benefits even for weapons you are not specialized in). Note, now you can't reach GM until 12th level. So it slows down and stretches out your proficiency advancement. And then at 13th you get an extra 1/2 APR. Now you can have: - 3.5 APR with SWS. That's good... almost as good as vanilla dual-wielding. But, critically, without the extra status effects of a 2nd equipped weapon. - 3 APR with 2-H. With better thac0, damage, and crits, plus far better base damage. I think that stuff makes up for the 16% APR advantage of SWS. Right? - 3.5 APR with DW. But your chance to hit will be penalized unless you are using small, low-damage weapons. - 2.5 APR with SnS. This is definitely the lowest, but your AC with a solid magical shield will be like 6 or 7 points better, which is meaningful in SoA. And, it's 2.5 APR with shield bash, which can affect one or more enemies in any given round. Compared to vanilla (3 APR max), SnS gives up .5 APR in exchange for shield bash.
At lower levels, the difference of .5 or 1 APR is more meaningful - it could be a 50% boost instead of a 16% boost. But you'll pretty quickly get to the point where the difference is 1.5 vs. 2, or 2 vs. 2.5. And you're mostly using arrows at lower level anyway.
I would give 1-2 thac0 to SwS. And +5% crit to 2handers. Sounds right by me. If the shield bash can realy compare to the APR loss.
Note, now you can't reach GM until 12th level. So it slows down and stretches out your proficiency advancement. And then at 13th you get an extra 1/2 APR. Now you can have:
Good with the GM. I would consider the extra 1/2 APR on level 14 or 15, to nerf dual classing slightly.
Also, I didn't mention this yet but I would enable non-warriors who can't specialize in weapons, to specialize in select styles. SWS and DW for rogues, 2-H and SnS for clerics, maybe 2-H for druids. So they would get a boost - clerics could be better semi-tanks, rogues could be better melee glass cannons.
Why 2handed and no SwS for clerics and druids? I can imagine Cleric with mace and druid with club, cleric with halberd not so much
I think those all look really good. I personally like the idea of only penalizing the off hand in TWS. A medium sized weapon shouldn't really be a burden on the main hand.
Remind me - if your critical threat is 19-20, will the game engine treat roll 19 as an automatic hit ?
If so, I would suggest removing Thac0 bonuses from 2handed style and keep it purely +dmg and +crit. In such case extra critical range would actualy increase to hit chance and would keep it the flavor of mighty unblockable blow.
On the other hand i would keep Thac0 bonuses with SwS as there are those poor sods who need every point of Thac0 (Mage/Thiefs etc.).
This style/proficiency stuff is going to be super complicated to code. Not sure when I'm going to have the time.
Meanwhile, what do people think about a tweak born of 5E: uniform resistances. The idea is to eliminate all of these shenanigans combining various resistances. Instead, depending on the item or spell, you will simply be able to become resistant to a damage type (set to 50% resistance) or immune (set to 100% resistance).
I think this is over-simplification. We have a medium that can handle complex issues virtually immediately (i.e. a PC), so let's flaunt it.
I'm "skip" lot of updates of SoB, but now want to back into BG world again, and again with my custom party of 3 multi-mages (Mage/Cleric, Mage/Thief, Mage/Fighter).
Tried to run with 4 members (+Ranger/Cleric) with unmodded BGEE (insane, but with max hp rolls and no damage increased - i'm think that max hp rolls is must have, but will think about enable damage increase) and... found that i'm can't play in it. I'm too powerful, enemies are too weak. No matter how many enemies basically, and no matter how many they can do damage. Surely, there is because of my "perfect" rolls for all of party (but i'm tried to remains on 85-87 for all, except 91 for Cleric/Mage).
So, i'm think that it is should be good thing to use SoB. At least for YARAS - look - the only true caster is Cleric/Mage, which eventually want smash things with staff (mace or whatever). But others are more fighters rather than mages. SoB looks like promising providing interesting options, like casting in armor. I'm personally dislike robes of archimages in BG2: because of bracers of defence AC3 is act better, at same time all other robes except Vecna are too weak to notice (5% MR?! it is joke - e.g. it is saves you if you are very luck, but not more than). AC5 of robes again is ok for BG1, but too weak for more high level content (armored fighters can reach very low AC without any buffs, and after what some buffs can be applied for them). But with AC5 robe or even AC3 bracers - you just can't reach same AC. I'm understand that it is not so important... since at some moment you get hit and you died or you are do not get hit, and you a live. Combine it with critical hits (e.g. rolls of 20) - and no matter how low you AC is, you anyway will eventually hit. As i'm remember this is you can feel even in SCS+Nashkel mines when you under fire of lot of bowmans, and they do so many hits, that someone will hit you. On other side, this still work against foes - you can hit any foe regardless of your's THAC0 or their AC: this is so dramatically differences from Pillars of Eternity mechanics: in PoE you should apply all possible debuffs and only then you will have a chance to hit something (surely i'm speak about some dragon), difference in accuracy vs defence in PoE can prevent criticals and (if dramatically diffres) - hits, and virtually possible that no one can even graze you. But we are in BG, and in this world we have critical hits and critical misses: and i'm think that this is very GOOD thing, because just lowering AC doesn't make you virtually immune.
I'm already say before - SoB may be eventually should be positioned also as item mod.
Look at Shadow Armor now. Mage/Thief like it. But, it is apply penalty for dexterity. That effectively renders as penalty to thief's skills. WTF?! I'm think @subtledoctor this should be fixed. Night's Armor are so enchanted that it is doesn't apply dexterity penalty, but for Shadow Armor i'm think it is should be special case, and it is should not penaltize thief skills (e.g. should not penaltize dexterity).
In my previous incomplete run i'm pretty sure that my Cleric/Mage has ability to use crossbows. Now i'm doesn't see this ability. I'm generally very like WPO, but this part kind of choice: 1. You are Cleric with restricted to blunt weapons which also able to cast Mage spells 2. You are Mage with mage restrictions, which can cast also Cleric spells. I'm always stuck with multiclasses in this part: sometimes we get better thing (like best THAC0 from Fighter when we Fighter/Mage), sometimes we put in restrictions of worst class, like in Cleric/Mage case. In my opinion, you are not Cleric/Mage, you are Mage/Cleric.
Also, may be i'm wrong - can i have Elf which is Cleric/Mage? I mean, in previous versions i'm has able to do it, but now don't. May be this is by another mod. For me, again, this restriction is stupid: Elves can be Clerics, and they are excellent as Mages. Why they can't be both, while there is one of most "multiclass" race. I'm know, rules, rules... But. There is rule which i'm really want to violate. And surely will benefit from 19 DEX and 19 INT, what's combined with "normal" 18 WIS and 3 tomes of WIS - will make it super-power choice.
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But, my initial question is absolutely another:
@subtledoctor, this is mainly for you, but i'm will like to hear others too.
Which another mods you can recommend? I'm not interested with many of annoying NPC restorations, especially banters (never liked them, and played enough in BG1 and BG2 to skip this things, even if i'm forget them).
What i'm want:
Challenge from start to end. But still have power to beat them all.
E.g. i'm doesn't need in "restoration" of quests in BG1: some of them opens access to powerful sword (flame-something), and very early! Some of them... just give XP. Meh. Beregost as for me already too big town for this stage of game, when we want more fight rather than explore quests.
SCS. Probably this is must have. I'm last time just walked into Nashkel Mines with pure EE and it was easy walk even without abusing something. E.g. i'm even doesn't cast any spell to disable them. Ugh! On other side, all of my party mages has ready Sleep spell. But i'm avoid to use it because it is about "win this fight" button... meh.
What turns me to... should i'm get Spell Revisions? SR, as i'm remember, was quite good: it has stupid things, but at least Sleep + SCS != win button, because enemies wake up once you hit them. Them means that if you want acquire 3x good plate armor from flame fist mercenaries - it is no more easy as it was. Especially because as i'm remember with SoB - DR also work against you - you should kick armored figures much longer, and it was a fun! We have spells - and should use them. (EDIT: Dagger of Venom becomes much more interesting in this case - low base damage + DR really becomes countered by venom which generates interrupts, but in plain EE it is simpler stick with higher base damage and doesn't bother about high venom damage, at least it is for me).
May be Item Revisions? One thing that i'm strongly against - is critical hits aversion. Another thing is removing some INT raising potions (i'm doesn't need to know all spells, but there is easier to know them all, to do not bother which you know and which not). And generally i'm doesn't feel that they do things right. They remove lot of cool things from "overpowered" items, but... Look. Invisibility on staff of magi. Surely, you can easily abuse it if you will constantly switch weapons, but if you will don't do it - invisibility gone, - it remains still powerful as it should be. And just for me - backstabbing with staff - is not a way. E.g. i'm just doesn't want use staff in hands of thief. Can't imagine why thief or mage/thief should pick it in hands anyway. So... IR - probably not. Also they do some interesting things with... for example gauntlets of ogre power - it is almost plain +2 STR. This is fits much better, than just set to 18/00 in SoB i think, but... SoB offer STR penalty. So... don't know. Belt of Giant Strength - replaces frost giant strength (21 STR), and now it is +3 STR. Or Gauntlets of Dexterity = +2 DEX. This is fit better in SoB, but there is at same time bad: gauntlets of dexterity in original provide -4AC for NPCs without DEX (well, allow gain some additional AC, if they has mediocre DEX). Now it is even can't compensate dexterity penalty from armor. So... this things remains are very broken as they had. In that sense, unmodded BG was lot better. At same time new IR can raise you DEX up to god-like values, if you already at 19 DEX - you will get 21. This is awesome buff. So... i think, that this kind items should act differently. Belt of any strength as indirect source of THAC0 and damage, in my opinion should do own stuff, as they do previously (or if do + bonuses they should not overlap their maximum, and even more - may be gain 2x bonus if you DEX very low (EDIT: target stat is very low) - e.g. it is should be almost "set" but bit more intelligent, where anyone with high DEX can benefit a bit (for example half strength of item, normal can benefit normal strength, and low DEX (or other stat) - can benefit 2x - that's basically should be bit more intelligent than just set, but makes more sense to use on any char. Otherwise - this items becomes meh - imagine 10 STR +3 from belt of frost giant strength... there is just no any sense to wear it). Or let see on Angurvadal +5 - so late weapon which again used to gain THAC0 and damage bonuses by setting STR. Now it is basically just flame weapon, not more. Meh. Short Sword of Backstabbing +3 - do right thing, increases backstup multiplier by 1. Awesome and logical. Well. I'm just mean, that i'm personally dislike IR more than like it: unique items in BG really rare, and really before replace items with "set" to "add" - i feel that whole game requires overhaul. This includes stats (that SoB already takes care a lot, but SoB it is also do in nerfish manner about STR), but spells and items... But, if someone can say that got good feedback with SoB+IR - then i'm will try it.
As for critical hits aversion from IR, with SCS you can/will get backstabs from invisible (against you i mean), you will get criticals (well, may be not SCS, may be it was another mod). Any way you will soak lot of damage, basically without any chance to survive without abusing save/load. Surely you can doesn't abuse it later, but at some stage in game in BG1 you will abuse, because you no have prepared spell which can help, but it is still unknown! So you just can't counter shadowing thiefs. (Them probably be from another mod... which adds more random encounters with headhunters - but not sure which it was.) Basically, when i'm played previous time, i'm even can't beat poor Silke until properly leveled up. So... helmets our friends, because prevent get lethal hits into head. May be in BG2 it is not so important. But so low number of unique helmets in game again... or items preventing criticals - means less item combinations, which already limited, and especially limited on 3-person party.
So... Please, suggest me mods which must have. Others "opt" mods which anyone prefer (with additional quests or just like it) please report anyway. I'm ask mostly about BG1 because BG1 due to low-level nature, absense of cool loot - is more boring than BG2. But i'm strongly want go for BG1-SoB (never play in it)-BG2 (all EE of course). So, keep BG2 in mind too.
EDIT: So, to clarify - i'm want minimal number of mods, which allow good gameplay which should not break gameplay with SoB. Last time i'm touched all of this stuff, i'm ends with wasted weeks of real time while installing/reinstalling/trying/retrying/whatever and then learning modding tools and as result - i'm abandon both: playing and modding - because from real life perspective it is very suboptimal. I'm ok even with unmodded game, except, that it is too easy and it forces us to min-maxed builds (too many stats without negatives, too big gaps when they do nothing - ideal stat points for me is 78 - but only if any point in stat will do something at every point, and of course in that case no penalties from armor is allowed ). Mix it even with SR's DUHM - it is limited only to +3 bonus, not +6! Also this way will works with stat boost items (instead of stat set items) - i'm played in NWN, NWN2 before i'm hit in BG (i'm think it was in this sequence, but i'm not sure - on last play with lot of mods i'm remember some of them even when i'm truly know that i'm never play with mods before... strange), so i'm quite well with concept of boosting stats. That exceptionally was well in NWN2 i think (and it was best game in DnD i think - no matter that i'm can't play even in it now - too stupid control, but some goodness in UI it has - like custom panels for spells / etc - that in BG i'm constantly miss - it is takes forever for me to choose right spell from panel in BG if you are high level and you has wide spell choice).
EDIT (continued): I'm already say once that stat rebalance require rebalance of everything in game (monsters mainly) - monsters often has very weird stats in game, and changes in stats as i'm understand affects them too. That's leave us with bad thing: some of them receive negatives bigger than expect, some of them doesn't get proper boost because of strength nerf. Biggest thing of strength "nerf" what i'm dislike is that all spell boosts remains at 18/xx while in SoB they are basically same. On other side... some monsters in game crafted especially strangely. Ankhegs for example. If i'm doesn't wrong they have everywhere 3 in stats or similar, but surely, they are still was hard with SCS, and absolutely not in original. Skip my complains, but they has some place. And this is why i'm asking for real suggestion.
EDIT (continued) 2: E.g. what i'm saying that i'm definitely doesn't see that SoB are ready for use without other mods: this penalties to DEX/STR of course i'm can disable... but this still doesn't looks right for me. I'm really like NWN2-like / 3E when only portion of DEX bonus can be used by armor. This actually solves many things. Surely now DEX penalty solves other things: like thief in full plate armor really should have penalty for thief skill, but i'm not sure that DEX penaly was in primary mind when this functionality developed. In my taste - light armors should be able utilize DEX bonuses - no one of them should penalty thiefs, while medium armor should utilize half of DEX bonus (e.g. up to about 2AC), and heavy armors should not utilize DEX bonus at all (or may be very small portion). DEX penaltizing penaltize thac0 too, so i'm understand that this is together somehow work... But... guys, what's CHARNAME's you roll to make it work? I'm sure that almost all roll about 18DEX without no choice, because it is too good to have stackable with everything AC bonus. Or at least 12-14DEX to not have penalty from stat. May be i'm wrong, and this is done in bit other way: mages for example in robes can utilize full DEX AC bonuses... as well full DEX with mage armors. That becomes pretty good (e.g. there is no big sense wear steel armor, except that you really want do mainly melee and get good DR% which at some moment should be better than plain AC).
Many thanks!
PS: As for item mod, this penalties to DEX and STR... they not always clear / e.g. things still broken. On other side, armored cleric with DEX-penaltized armor can get profit from DUHM almost immediately (unlike to vanilla, when you should have at least 18 STR to get bonuses immediately, or wait until equipment and/or +2 and more bonuses to get benefits from STR/20 CON/etc). With penaltized DEX - there is big chance that they will receive AC bonus from DEX under DUHM. That's again cool. And again, with SR - when boost limited to +3 - it is never be able return penalty back (depends from armor of course, and when it be able recieve +3 bonus it is more likely it be able to use armor with less penalties or without at all). Of course, this penalties (DEX/STR) can be countered by some times, but generally this items are minor (DEX 18 item are good, but plain THAC0 bonus probably is better, and extremely better is gloves of extraordinary specialization - but it is again very late).
PPS: I like that SoB evolves and i generally like almost all of changes. I'm also not sure with modified XP tables, but they are looks good - they provide almost same HLA (allow choose at least one unique HLA) for multi classes except Thief/Mage, which becomes lack of them. E.g. it is generally probably will be better to have progression which allow pick them all HLA's, as other classes do.
And, i'm skip module about HP rolls, since i'm prefer just getting max HP with option in game. As i'm remember with SCS it is arguable normal choice, - no matter how many HP you have, but having bit more is bit better and can help survive one more strike - much troublesome enemies doesn't fall under command or sleep spells unconditionally - so... It just for me.
Forget to ask in previous post, but decided not edit it anymore.
Stupid questions, i'm feel it was changes about in last year(s).
Does "innate" stat bonuses like permanent luck from charisma are obtained from stat boosts? E.g. if i'm 16 CHA and wear +2 CHA cloak - will i'm get luck? Same with "Friends" spell. Does it will happens with permanent stat boost (e.g. from tome).
Or, do we obtain additional spells if we permanently boost INT or WIS (again tome / whatever boost it permanently)?
Dual Wielding should have either less thac0 or secondary weapon should only be used for parry (or make a innate? skill with 2 stances) and you should not be able to dual wield to long weapon (long sword, bastard sword, etc...) or have a huge malus to thac0 and dmg.
SwS should have more thac0, apr, crit and little AC bonus(parry).
2handed style should give thac0, crit and little AC bonus(parry).
Hello. Tried a bit Item Revisions again, and found dynamic stats bit buggy:
First, 19 INT provides only +1 caster level instead of +2. Second, looks like Amulet of Power (which also provides +2 caster level) - doesn't work, at least for me i'm doesn't found any effect from amulet on casting level (even if it has correct effects) - so not sure if it is engine doesn't stack bonuses, or it is SoB do things behind which becomes invisible.
And generally saves (save game) with INT 19 / 20 looks strange, sometimes they has effects from D5INT19 (i'm created char with INT19, and then edited it to INT20 when tried to understand casting level increasing). Sometimes save contains effects from D5INT20. Sometimes save contains effects from both. And for me this happens bit randomly, looks like them "cycle". Just need walk a bit and made 2-3 quicksaves to see difference. Latest SoB.
Your character has a permanent effect that checks you INT every 6 seconds and applies the correct spell. So if you have an INT score of 19, it will apply D5INT19 every 6 seconds. If you artificially tried to apply a conflicting effect like D5INT20, it's going to get overridden every few seconds. So it's not a bug, in fact the game continuously working against your EEKeeper change means it is working as intended.
I'm just edited INT in EEKeeper and in game wear and wear-off Amulet of Power. I'm doesnt touch effects with hands. May be i'm wait not long enough. Not sure. I'm removed that install anyway, cant check anymore.
BTW: Surely is not a something new, but looks like bonus spells from INT are gained only on level ups (ignoring 1st level for some reason,. e.g. no bonus spell at level 1). Interesting that if you increase INT with potion before level-up... you will gain bonus spells. Not sure if them be collected "back" on next level up if char will have again "normal" 10INT.
YARAS: after installing this component, open NI and look for an armor of your choice -> check the "attribute" Unusable by: only Monk (29) and Druid (30) are selected. Sometimes only Monk (29) is selected. This is true for every single armor in the game and it's clearly a bug (because, for example, thieves can equip heavy armors, paladins can equip robes and the like....)
Comments
So, if S&B's selling point is defense, give them a chance to flaunt it and go with your option 3.
Early in SoA, shield fightning becomes simply strictly worse than the other styles. Ehen I gave more AC to the style, the break point was postponed to late SoA. Thus the style was about tradeoff - realy powerful early in the saga, while being totaly underwhelming later on.
What I would like to see is the possibility to make the AC bonus scale with level. So early on SnS would not push AC levels beyond sane levels, while with proper balance, shields could actualy help your defense even in ToB. Obviously this is much harder to achieve than chancing the number in 2DA file, but if you are determined to make the bash scale with level, you might as well try to tinker the AC bonus.
Also I am againts adding more APR to the styles, unless the system gets totaly overhauled. I like the 1/2 extra APR at SwS and would leave it like that.
Reasoning:
1) If you add extra APR to all styles you are just effectively nerfing classes and most importantly monsters that do not use styles.
2) If you add more APR only to SwS it will totaly overshadow Two handers.
3) If you add more APR to both to SwS and Two handers you are basicaly doing the same as 1) except that it will further downgrade poor sword and shield.
Also i see a problem - if i understand it correctly the shield bash will trigger only if the enemy overcomes your AC right ? So this could mean that the best way to use shieldbash would be to run high DR, stoneskin/Mirror image/PfMW, + worst AC as possible. I would give 1-2 thac0 to SwS. And +5% crit to 2handers.
Sounds right by me. If the shield bash can realy compare to the APR loss. Good with the GM. I would consider the extra 1/2 APR on level 14 or 15, to nerf dual classing slightly. Why 2handed and no SwS for clerics and druids? I can imagine Cleric with mace and druid with club, cleric with halberd not so much
If so, I would suggest removing Thac0 bonuses from 2handed style and keep it purely +dmg and +crit. In such case extra critical range would actualy increase to hit chance and would keep it the flavor of mighty unblockable blow.
On the other hand i would keep Thac0 bonuses with SwS as there are those poor sods who need every point of Thac0 (Mage/Thiefs etc.).
I'm "skip" lot of updates of SoB, but now want to back into BG world again, and again with my custom party of 3 multi-mages (Mage/Cleric, Mage/Thief, Mage/Fighter).
Tried to run with 4 members (+Ranger/Cleric) with unmodded BGEE (insane, but with max hp rolls and no damage increased - i'm think that max hp rolls is must have, but will think about enable damage increase) and... found that i'm can't play in it. I'm too powerful, enemies are too weak. No matter how many enemies basically, and no matter how many they can do damage. Surely, there is because of my "perfect" rolls for all of party (but i'm tried to remains on 85-87 for all, except 91 for Cleric/Mage).
So, i'm think that it is should be good thing to use SoB. At least for YARAS - look - the only true caster is Cleric/Mage, which eventually want smash things with staff (mace or whatever). But others are more fighters rather than mages. SoB looks like promising providing interesting options, like casting in armor. I'm personally dislike robes of archimages in BG2: because of bracers of defence AC3 is act better, at same time all other robes except Vecna are too weak to notice (5% MR?! it is joke - e.g. it is saves you if you are very luck, but not more than). AC5 of robes again is ok for BG1, but too weak for more high level content (armored fighters can reach very low AC without any buffs, and after what some buffs can be applied for them). But with AC5 robe or even AC3 bracers - you just can't reach same AC. I'm understand that it is not so important... since at some moment you get hit and you died or you are do not get hit, and you a live. Combine it with critical hits (e.g. rolls of 20) - and no matter how low you AC is, you anyway will eventually hit. As i'm remember this is you can feel even in SCS+Nashkel mines when you under fire of lot of bowmans, and they do so many hits, that someone will hit you. On other side, this still work against foes - you can hit any foe regardless of your's THAC0 or their AC: this is so dramatically differences from Pillars of Eternity mechanics: in PoE you should apply all possible debuffs and only then you will have a chance to hit something (surely i'm speak about some dragon), difference in accuracy vs defence in PoE can prevent criticals and (if dramatically diffres) - hits, and virtually possible that no one can even graze you. But we are in BG, and in this world we have critical hits and critical misses: and i'm think that this is very GOOD thing, because just lowering AC doesn't make you virtually immune.
I'm already say before - SoB may be eventually should be positioned also as item mod.
Look at Shadow Armor now. Mage/Thief like it. But, it is apply penalty for dexterity. That effectively renders as penalty to thief's skills. WTF?!
In my previous incomplete run i'm pretty sure that my Cleric/Mage has ability to use crossbows. Now i'm doesn't see this ability. I'm generally very like WPO, but this part kind of choice:
1. You are Cleric with restricted to blunt weapons which also able to cast Mage spells
2. You are Mage with mage restrictions, which can cast also Cleric spells.
I'm always stuck with multiclasses in this part: sometimes we get better thing (like best THAC0 from Fighter when we Fighter/Mage), sometimes we put in restrictions of worst class, like in Cleric/Mage case. In my opinion, you are not Cleric/Mage, you are Mage/Cleric.
Also, may be i'm wrong - can i have Elf which is Cleric/Mage? I mean, in previous versions i'm has able to do it, but now don't. May be this is by another mod. For me, again, this restriction is stupid: Elves can be Clerics, and they are excellent as Mages. Why they can't be both, while there is one of most "multiclass" race. I'm know, rules, rules... But. There is rule which i'm really want to violate. And surely will benefit from 19 DEX and 19 INT, what's combined with "normal" 18 WIS and 3 tomes of WIS - will make it super-power choice.
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But, my initial question is absolutely another:
@subtledoctor, this is mainly for you, but i'm will like to hear others too.
Which another mods you can recommend? I'm not interested with many of annoying NPC restorations, especially banters (never liked them, and played enough in BG1 and BG2 to skip this things, even if i'm forget them).
What i'm want:
Challenge from start to end. But still have power to beat them all.
E.g. i'm doesn't need in "restoration" of quests in BG1: some of them opens access to powerful sword (flame-something), and very early! Some of them... just give XP. Meh. Beregost as for me already too big town for this stage of game, when we want more fight rather than explore quests.
SCS. Probably this is must have. I'm last time just walked into Nashkel Mines with pure EE and it was easy walk even without abusing something. E.g. i'm even doesn't cast any spell to disable them. Ugh! On other side, all of my party mages has ready Sleep spell. But i'm avoid to use it because it is about "win this fight" button... meh.
What turns me to... should i'm get Spell Revisions? SR, as i'm remember, was quite good: it has stupid things, but at least Sleep + SCS != win button, because enemies wake up once you hit them. Them means that if you want acquire 3x good plate armor from flame fist mercenaries - it is no more easy as it was. Especially because as i'm remember with SoB - DR also work against you - you should kick armored figures much longer, and it was a fun! We have spells - and should use them. (EDIT: Dagger of Venom becomes much more interesting in this case - low base damage + DR really becomes countered by venom which generates interrupts, but in plain EE it is simpler stick with higher base damage and doesn't bother about high venom damage, at least it is for me).
May be Item Revisions? One thing that i'm strongly against - is critical hits aversion. Another thing is removing some INT raising potions (i'm doesn't need to know all spells, but there is easier to know them all, to do not bother which you know and which not). And generally i'm doesn't feel that they do things right. They remove lot of cool things from "overpowered" items, but... Look. Invisibility on staff of magi. Surely, you can easily abuse it if you will constantly switch weapons, but if you will don't do it - invisibility gone, - it remains still powerful as it should be. And just for me - backstabbing with staff - is not a way. E.g. i'm just doesn't want use staff in hands of thief. Can't imagine why thief or mage/thief should pick it in hands anyway. So... IR - probably not. Also they do some interesting things with... for example gauntlets of ogre power - it is almost plain +2 STR. This is fits much better, than just set to 18/00 in SoB i think, but... SoB offer STR penalty. So... don't know. Belt of Giant Strength - replaces frost giant strength (21 STR), and now it is +3 STR. Or Gauntlets of Dexterity = +2 DEX. This is fit better in SoB, but there is at same time bad: gauntlets of dexterity in original provide -4AC for NPCs without DEX (well, allow gain some additional AC, if they has mediocre DEX). Now it is even can't compensate dexterity penalty from armor. So... this things remains are very broken as they had. In that sense, unmodded BG was lot better. At same time new IR can raise you DEX up to god-like values, if you already at 19 DEX - you will get 21. This is awesome buff. So... i think, that this kind items should act differently. Belt of any strength as indirect source of THAC0 and damage, in my opinion should do own stuff, as they do previously (or if do + bonuses they should not overlap their maximum, and even more - may be gain 2x bonus if you DEX very low (EDIT: target stat is very low) - e.g. it is should be almost "set" but bit more intelligent, where anyone with high DEX can benefit a bit (for example half strength of item, normal can benefit normal strength, and low DEX (or other stat) - can benefit 2x - that's basically should be bit more intelligent than just set, but makes more sense to use on any char. Otherwise - this items becomes meh - imagine 10 STR +3 from belt of frost giant strength... there is just no any sense to wear it). Or let see on Angurvadal +5 - so late weapon which again used to gain THAC0 and damage bonuses by setting STR. Now it is basically just flame weapon, not more. Meh. Short Sword of Backstabbing +3 - do right thing, increases backstup multiplier by 1. Awesome and logical. Well. I'm just mean, that i'm personally dislike IR more than like it: unique items in BG really rare, and really before replace items with "set" to "add" - i feel that whole game requires overhaul. This includes stats (that SoB already takes care a lot, but SoB it is also do in nerfish manner about STR), but spells and items... But, if someone can say that got good feedback with SoB+IR - then i'm will try it.
As for critical hits aversion from IR, with SCS you can/will get backstabs from invisible (against you i mean), you will get criticals (well, may be not SCS, may be it was another mod). Any way you will soak lot of damage, basically without any chance to survive without abusing save/load. Surely you can doesn't abuse it later, but at some stage in game in BG1 you will abuse, because you no have prepared spell which can help, but it is still unknown! So you just can't counter shadowing thiefs. (Them probably be from another mod... which adds more random encounters with headhunters - but not sure which it was.) Basically, when i'm played previous time, i'm even can't beat poor Silke until properly leveled up. So... helmets our friends, because prevent get lethal hits into head.
So... Please, suggest me mods which must have. Others "opt" mods which anyone prefer (with additional quests or just like it) please report anyway.
EDIT: So, to clarify - i'm want minimal number of mods, which allow good gameplay which should not break gameplay with SoB. Last time i'm touched all of this stuff, i'm ends with wasted weeks of real time while installing/reinstalling/trying/retrying/whatever and then learning modding tools and as result - i'm abandon both: playing and modding - because from real life perspective it is very suboptimal. I'm ok even with unmodded game, except, that it is too easy and it forces us to min-maxed builds (too many stats without negatives, too big gaps when they do nothing - ideal stat points for me is 78 - but only if any point in stat will do something at every point, and of course in that case no penalties from armor is allowed
EDIT (continued): I'm already say once that stat rebalance require rebalance of everything in game (monsters mainly) - monsters often has very weird stats in game, and changes in stats as i'm understand affects them too. That's leave us with bad thing: some of them receive negatives bigger than expect, some of them doesn't get proper boost because of strength nerf. Biggest thing of strength "nerf" what i'm dislike is that all spell boosts remains at 18/xx while in SoB they are basically same. On other side... some monsters in game crafted especially strangely. Ankhegs for example. If i'm doesn't wrong they have everywhere 3 in stats or similar, but surely, they are still was hard with SCS, and absolutely not in original. Skip my complains, but they has some place. And this is why i'm asking for real suggestion.
EDIT (continued) 2: E.g. what i'm saying that i'm definitely doesn't see that SoB are ready for use without other mods: this penalties to DEX/STR of course i'm can disable... but this still doesn't looks right for me. I'm really like NWN2-like / 3E when only portion of DEX bonus can be used by armor. This actually solves many things. Surely now DEX penalty solves other things: like thief in full plate armor really should have penalty for thief skill, but i'm not sure that DEX penaly was in primary mind when this functionality developed. In my taste - light armors should be able utilize DEX bonuses - no one of them should penalty thiefs, while medium armor should utilize half of DEX bonus (e.g. up to about 2AC), and heavy armors should not utilize DEX bonus at all (or may be very small portion). DEX penaltizing penaltize thac0 too, so i'm understand that this is together somehow work... But... guys, what's CHARNAME's you roll to make it work? I'm sure that almost all roll about 18DEX without no choice, because it is too good to have stackable with everything AC bonus. Or at least 12-14DEX to not have penalty from stat. May be i'm wrong, and this is done in bit other way: mages for example in robes can utilize full DEX AC bonuses... as well full DEX with mage armors. That becomes pretty good (e.g. there is no big sense wear steel armor, except that you really want do mainly melee and get good DR% which at some moment should be better than plain AC).
Many thanks!
PS: As for item mod, this penalties to DEX and STR... they not always clear / e.g. things still broken. On other side, armored cleric with DEX-penaltized armor can get profit from DUHM almost immediately (unlike to vanilla, when you should have at least 18 STR to get bonuses immediately, or wait until equipment and/or +2 and more bonuses to get benefits from STR/20 CON/etc). With penaltized DEX - there is big chance that they will receive AC bonus from DEX under DUHM. That's again cool. And again, with SR - when boost limited to +3 - it is never be able return penalty back (depends from armor of course, and when it be able recieve +3 bonus it is more likely it be able to use armor with less penalties or without at all). Of course, this penalties (DEX/STR) can be countered by some times, but generally this items are minor (DEX 18 item are good, but plain THAC0 bonus probably is better, and extremely better is gloves of extraordinary specialization - but it is again very late).
PPS: I like that SoB evolves and i generally like almost all of changes. I'm also not sure with modified XP tables, but they are looks good - they provide almost same HLA (allow choose at least one unique HLA) for multi classes except Thief/Mage, which becomes lack of them. E.g. it is generally probably will be better to have progression which allow pick them all HLA's, as other classes do.
And, i'm skip module about HP rolls, since i'm prefer just getting max HP with option in game. As i'm remember with SCS it is arguable normal choice, - no matter how many HP you have, but having bit more is bit better and can help survive one more strike - much troublesome enemies doesn't fall under command or sleep spells unconditionally - so...
Thanks!
Stupid questions, i'm feel it was changes about in last year(s).
Does "innate" stat bonuses like permanent luck from charisma are obtained from stat boosts? E.g. if i'm 16 CHA and wear +2 CHA cloak - will i'm get luck? Same with "Friends" spell. Does it will happens with permanent stat boost (e.g. from tome).
Or, do we obtain additional spells if we permanently boost INT or WIS (again tome / whatever boost it permanently)?
SwS should have more thac0, apr, crit and little AC bonus(parry).
2handed style should give thac0, crit and little AC bonus(parry).
SnB with rispote is the way to go imo.
First, 19 INT provides only +1 caster level instead of +2.
Second, looks like Amulet of Power (which also provides +2 caster level) - doesn't work, at least for me i'm doesn't found any effect from amulet on casting level (even if it has correct effects) - so not sure if it is engine doesn't stack bonuses, or it is SoB do things behind which becomes invisible.
And generally saves (save game) with INT 19 / 20 looks strange, sometimes they has effects from D5INT19 (i'm created char with INT19, and then edited it to INT20 when tried to understand casting level increasing). Sometimes save contains effects from D5INT20. Sometimes save contains effects from both. And for me this happens bit randomly, looks like them "cycle". Just need walk a bit and made 2-3 quicksaves to see difference. Latest SoB.
BTW: Surely is not a something new, but looks like bonus spells from INT are gained only on level ups (ignoring 1st level for some reason,. e.g. no bonus spell at level 1). Interesting that if you increase INT with potion before level-up... you will gain bonus spells. Not sure if them be collected "back" on next level up if char will have again "normal" 10INT.
YARAS: after installing this component, open NI and look for an armor of your choice -> check the "attribute" Unusable by: only Monk (29) and Druid (30) are selected. Sometimes only Monk (29) is selected. This is true for every single armor in the game and it's clearly a bug (because, for example, thieves can equip heavy armors, paladins can equip robes and the like....)