Basically just because weapon proficiency/styles was all about raising speed, finesse and damage. E.g. as you progress in weapon proficiency especially as fighter with weapon proficiency - you gain "faster and harder" attacks. Hey! They even forced to gain speed on 7 and 13 level. Also just because proposed TWH already score critical hits... this style should outperform others in term of damage per hit.
19-20 permanent critical scores is already quite big number, in conjunction that this is also considered as automatically-hit. If you back in days of SoB v5 beginning with INT19 = +2 crit range + from weapon styles = ability to roll critical on 15+ roll => not a fun. Only needed on top of this add lot enough APR and you can kill anyone with 20 THAC0. So, i'm strongly advice to not overlap 19-20 natural critical hit range, and leaving it unique for one damaging (!) weapon style makes lot of sense for me.
But, consider another aspect: i'm has no evidence of how this affects on gameplay, but from pieces of mechanics which i'm know... speed factor should be something what you may love (or fear) again at lower levels at least. Proposed weapon style removes weapon speed factor bonus, while Item Revision's component "Enchantment Doesn't Affect Speed Factor of Weapons" care about this crazy +4/+5/+6 weapons. So Carsomyr +5 still a weapon with speed factor 10. (Not sure if SoB give speed bonus from proficiencies, like high mastery or grand master). Any way with this modifications you will get strong Carsomyr +5 with lowest speed factor. Unfortunately - game mechanics automagically provide speed bonuses to you when you score APR. But from my understanding (may be wrong) with 5 APR without bonuses to speed factor from masteries Carsomyr will not strike on first second of round. Theoretically this leaves place for single wielders strike you in this first second and apply some effect (interrupt your's attack, but i'm not sure that melee attacks can be interrupted... characters cry ouch! on hit, but what happens to attack i'm never check).
So in my taste - currently proposed overhaul already have lot of some lore behind.
I'm probably mess in some things... but i'm really want to have any class (?) be able to learn weapon style at full level (e.g. put 2 pips). I'm feel that (subtledoctor) say something about, or may be i'm just read this from some tweak description.
Back in topic:
Specifically Cleric/Mage: he/she can use only Quaterstaves from two-handed weapons. And under BG1EE XP cap be able to specialize in one weapon (or style if you allow this). At this point it is just 3/2 APR. Later (not so later, but much later than others will do it), if he specializes in Two-Handed Style give it 2APR. 2APR is much more enjoyable than 1APR, because 1APR - it is like your char stay around enemies and do nothing, and between do nothing it swing on bees which fly just above enemy heads. 3/2 APR - is like 1APR but round over round. With 2APR - it is potent fighter. I'm probably so stick to this, because other classes progress in game, but this is not. Especially in case when we choose multiclass where we can't say "just stay with own 1APR and cast spells" - but single classes do it lot better. Also my personal taste of pure Clerics says that they are bit more combat oriented persons than Mages.
Finally we have 1.5APR daggers - you just not need wait "mediocre" Belm or Kundane - you will get same APR with them (IR-modified).
PS: Also, i'm sure, that targeting to some end-game values is wrong thing. I'm remember my previous play with SoB and when i'm got new portion of APR (1.5 or 2 - not really matter) - it was whoa! And because it is also was with SCS - it was not easy to get, and it was feels like a big reward. Game with absence of noticeable rewards are sucks, and in BG1 case it is too long way before you reach even chapter 2 (well without difficulty mod it is not a problem to rush in mines, but... for not experienced player it is anyway hard way). And (in my taste) there is too few good items in BG1, or their progression so strange, that you are can't like them. So, i'm prefer instead focus on characters and love them and their abilities (even if half of their cool abilities are remains in mind - waiting for levelup, waiting for another levelup, imagine how you smashwashwhack enemies, but you meet Ghoul(?) which you perma-paralyze, and there is close tomb, so you can't kite (even if allow it for self), you doesn't have magical bullets in sling - whoa! you search for new tactics). Same as surviving with only muticlasses on some points in game is not easy: you just doesn't know/able cast spells which can help breach a wall (i'm not only means some magic defensions). But this on another side turns me to looks for another tactics. For example my F/M like Aganazzar's Scorcher spell (oh, i'm even like all beam-like abilities in pillars - so it is may be just for me). Well, i'm turn left bit. So, because SoB provides good weapon proficiency progression - assigning new pips with powerful effects on 2-nd tier turn this from "just another build" to reward, that positively affects on overall gameplay. Bit more APR? Bit more "unbalanced"? Who cares with ton of mods and overhauls / scs / other difficulty tweaks, or good-old known exploits (which nowadays we are trying to avoid / cancel). Unmodded BG1EE is not too broken with OP 2APR shortbows - it just too easy and BG1 itself is bit boring before reaching BG (so long way and just because PC bit dump to trying use underground tunnels or something like it ). So i'm absolutely doesn't see nothing wrong about things which turns early BG1 stages bit more dynamic/interesting. And weapon styles, IMO, part of this (at least i'm feel them in this way).
It was a bit odd when my second rank dart throwers were getting stunned by shield bash, hope that becomes less likely. Enjoyed styles being more relevant though.
YARAS: after installing this component, open NI and look for an armor of your choice -> check the "attribute" Unusable by: only Monk (29) and Druid (30) are selected. Sometimes only Monk (29) is selected. This is true for every single armor in the game and it's clearly a bug (because, for example, thieves can equip heavy armors, paladins can equip robes and the like....)
Sorry, missed this. Not sure exactly what you're reporting. The point of YARAS is to make armor usable by more people, but impose penalties relating to that use. Is there some armor that isn't being handled correctly?
I was simply reporting that now everyone but some specific kits can equip any armor (i.e., paladins can equip mage robes, thieves can equip plate mails and the like....) -> Is this intended?
Which brings me back to, let the player decide. Have two different styles that are in effect any time you don't have anything in your off-hand slot, and an innate item ability to switch from one style to the other.
I mean, these implementations of shield-fighting and dual-wielding are already pushing me to the boundaries of what I can do with weapon styles... why not really make it as complicated as possible?
...
Unify "Single-weapon: 1-handed" and "Single-weapon: 2-handed" as a single style, giving you the benefits of both. (Maybe?)
Eh, this is getting complicated again...
Well if you can code it, you can complicate it I guess . As long as it does not scare new players way too much.
I would start by scrapping one-handed and two-handed styles and replace them with Finesse (+thac0,APR) and Power (+damage,crit). Some weapons could support only one style (daggers, flails), some could use both and if the character has enough pips he could put them to both styles and switch between them.
19-20 permanent critical scores is already quite big number, in conjunction that this is also considered as automatically-hit. If you back in days of SoB v5 beginning with INT19 = +2 crit range + from weapon styles = ability to roll critical on 15+ roll => not a fun. Only needed on top of this add lot enough APR and you can kill anyone with 20 THAC0. So, i'm strongly advice to not overlap 19-20 natural critical hit range, and leaving it unique for one damaging (!) weapon style makes lot of sense for me.
Eh crit is not that big deal. It can´t break trough magical protections, some enemies are immune to it. Range down to 15 is still just random 25% and it requires some stacking effort to get there. Yes the autohit is sort of pseudo thac0, but I think that simple thac0 bonus is stronger. About it not being fun - dunno everyone i know loves scoring criticals
Specifically Cleric/Mage: he/she can use only Quaterstaves from two-handed weapons. And under BG1EE XP cap be able to specialize in one weapon (or style if you allow this). At this point it is just 3/2 APR. Later (not so later, but much later than others will do it), if he specializes in Two-Handed Style give it 2APR.2APR is much more enjoyable than 1APR
Yes APR is cool and fun, meele-ing with 1 APR is indeed not fun. But we already do have extra APR in weapon specialization. If next to this we put 4 styles where 3 of them give actual extra attack and the final one pseudo extra attack, than the styles dangerously start to look the same, which is simply boring.
Also giving way too much APR will lessen its value. If warrior has 3 APR and caster 1 APR, than the warrior is 3x times better fighter. But if the caster has 2APR and the warrior has 4 APR, than the warrior is only 2x times better fighter, despite the numerical difference being the same.
I think it can be done through the projectile: Give the Bash spell full range (255), so it never fails. Leave Condition as When Attacked. Create a new projectile for it:
Area-Effect, Speed: 20
Area Flags: Cone Shaped, Single Target, Affect only Enemies
Trap Size, Explosion Size: I suggest 80 as a minimum (5 ft reach), but also to hit larger creatures.
@subtledoctor i'm... well, on clean installation my F/M doesn't recieve 1-level bonus spell regardless of INT. C/M with 18-19 INT - get it. But F/M not. Looks like some bug. Any suggestion to what to look? I'm will be glad to help to diagnose this better.
@Arizael APR from weapon specialization as i'm understand will be nerfed a bit (no auto bonus on 7 level?). I'm fuzzed here from previous discussions.
As for criticals - in original game nothing allow exceed 19-20 critical range. May be old Luck spell grant this, but as i'm feel - in SR it is definitely not (may be old also doesn't increase it, i'm doesn't remember). Technically 18-20 can work nicely. At least if it is only one style which provides crits... But in that case we should be sure that you can't increase own critical range too much from other sources, otherwise it is ruins already weak balance.
From Item Revision side you should have some items which increase critical range: Archer Eyes: +5% crit for ranged attacks, +1DEX Bruenor's Waraxe: +5% crit Long Bow of Marksmapship: +10% crit Heavy Crossbow of Accruacy: +10% crit Neb's Nasty Cutter (dagger): +5% crit Gloves of Rogue: +5% crit Wyrmcleaver (halberd): +10% crit Malakar Companion (short sowrd): +5% crit Backbiter (spear): +10% crit Martial Staff: +10% crit Blade of Shapness: +15% crit (!!!) Malakar: +5% crit Silver Sword: +10% crit
Not so many (no greatswords here), but... rogues with proper setup can crit a lot here.
@subtledoctor another issue: create custom party. remove player from party and join them again. animation usually shows that some effects re-applied. i'm not sure which is them are correct or not, but if you rejoin Fighter it recieve additional innate abilities to gaining proficiences. I'm feel that this happens with NPCs too.
everyone but some specific kits can equip any armor (i.e., paladins can equip mage robes, thieves can equip plate mails and the like....) -> Is this intended?
Largely, yes. It encompasses both "thieving in armor" mods and "casting in armor" mods.
Not sure about mage robes though. Are you using IR as well? IIRC, it lets anyone wear the lesser mage robes (Knave's, Traveler's, Adventurer's), but not the greater ones (Weave, Battlemage, Arcane Might).
EDIT - just checked, and the greater robes are usable by most people. Looks like YARAS needs to be tightened up a bit.
Yes, I'm using IR. IR lets only mages (including Multi-class mages) wear mage robes (both lesser and greater robes). YARAS lets anyone but monks and some specific kits wear mage robes -> I don't think this is intended....
I don't really see the need to do away with single weapon and two handed style honestly. I GUARANTEE that I will never remember to enable my style at the beginning of the game.
I concur: it's getting too far offtrack and adding needless additions. Leave the Styles as they are. The Finesse & Power stances are a good idea to add as a seperate option, though.
It´s quite simple frankly. You pick one style at character creation, just like you did up until now. The code should detect it just as it detects extra APR from SwS now and apply the correct bonuses.
Only if you decide to invest the pips and develop the other style in pararel you get to make the choice .... but hey you can´t realy complain here, it was you who picked it. It should still only be feasible to warriors, who generaly don´t get that much abilities anyway. I honestly don´t see a problem here - it is a new ability that is completely optional, definitly won´t be used in every fight and will probably be feasible to only 1-2 party members.
It´s quite simple frankly. You pick one style at character creation, just like you did up until now. The code should detect it just as it detects extra APR from SwS now and apply the correct bonuses.
Only if you decide to invest the pips and develop the other style in pararel you get to make the choice .... but hey you can´t realy complain here, it was you who picked it. It should still only be feasible to warriors, who generaly don´t get that much abilities anyway. I honestly don´t see a problem here - it is a new ability that is completely optional, definitly won´t be used in every fight and will probably be feasible to only 1-2 party members.
My understanding at the time was that you'd need to turn it on on a regular basis, not set-and-forget.
Subtledoctor's comment up-thread about set-and-forget unless you happen to have two styles makes a lot of sense.
You could also just drop the notion of styles altogether and replace them with generic fighting skills. What that could mean is that - shields could simply be another weapon proficiency like small blades or blunt weapons. One that could grant a better and better shield bash as you get more proficient, and maybe AC bonus. - 2hs, sws and dual wielding could be instead split into heavy handedness (try googling heavy handed fighting), rapidity and defensive fighting. - Heavy handedness would only give bonuses to damage and crits. - rapidity is equal to APR bonuses only (e.g. three pips, each 0.5 APR to Main hand, second & third pip also each give 0.5 APR to offer hand) - defensive fighting gives bonus to AC, and grants ability to either do off hand attack with a weapon, or do a number of counter punches pr round if unarmed or armed with a single handed melee weapon only (no shield)
Thac0 bonuses and precisions would be determined by weapon proficiency only, not generic fighting "style" skills.
That would be another way to deal with the styles issue at least.
@subtledoctor cool fixes. Just remind that Fighter/Mage still doesn't receive bonus spells as should, but non-fighter classes recieve them (Mage/Theif for example).
PS: Just create new F/M, in log appears some invalid entries. I'm unfortunately can't resolve this.
Comments
Basically just because weapon proficiency/styles was all about raising speed, finesse and damage. E.g. as you progress in weapon proficiency especially as fighter with weapon proficiency - you gain "faster and harder" attacks. Hey! They even forced to gain speed on 7 and 13 level. Also just because proposed TWH already score critical hits... this style should outperform others in term of damage per hit.
19-20 permanent critical scores is already quite big number, in conjunction that this is also considered as automatically-hit. If you back in days of SoB v5 beginning with INT19 = +2 crit range + from weapon styles = ability to roll critical on 15+ roll => not a fun. Only needed on top of this add lot enough APR and you can kill anyone with 20 THAC0. So, i'm strongly advice to not overlap 19-20 natural critical hit range, and leaving it unique for one damaging (!) weapon style makes lot of sense for me.
But, consider another aspect: i'm has no evidence of how this affects on gameplay, but from pieces of mechanics which i'm know... speed factor should be something what you may love (or fear) again at lower levels at least. Proposed weapon style removes weapon speed factor bonus, while Item Revision's component "Enchantment Doesn't Affect Speed Factor of Weapons" care about this crazy +4/+5/+6 weapons. So Carsomyr +5 still a weapon with speed factor 10. (Not sure if SoB give speed bonus from proficiencies, like high mastery or grand master). Any way with this modifications you will get strong Carsomyr +5 with lowest speed factor. Unfortunately - game mechanics automagically provide speed bonuses to you when you score APR. But from my understanding (may be wrong) with 5 APR without bonuses to speed factor from masteries Carsomyr will not strike on first second of round. Theoretically this leaves place for single wielders strike you in this first second and apply some effect (interrupt your's attack, but i'm not sure that melee attacks can be interrupted... characters cry ouch! on hit, but what happens to attack i'm never check).
So in my taste - currently proposed overhaul already have lot of some lore behind.
I'm probably mess in some things... but i'm really want to have any class (?) be able to learn weapon style at full level (e.g. put 2 pips). I'm feel that (subtledoctor) say something about, or may be i'm just read this from some tweak description.
Back in topic:
Specifically Cleric/Mage: he/she can use only Quaterstaves from two-handed weapons. And under BG1EE XP cap be able to specialize in one weapon (or style if you allow this). At this point it is just 3/2 APR. Later (not so later, but much later than others will do it), if he specializes in Two-Handed Style give it 2APR. 2APR is much more enjoyable than 1APR, because 1APR - it is like your char stay around enemies and do nothing, and between do nothing it swing on bees which fly just above enemy heads. 3/2 APR - is like 1APR but round over round.
Finally we have 1.5APR daggers - you just not need wait "mediocre" Belm or Kundane - you will get same APR with them (IR-modified).
PS: Also, i'm sure, that targeting to some end-game values is wrong thing. I'm remember my previous play with SoB and when i'm got new portion of APR (1.5 or 2 - not really matter) - it was whoa! And because it is also was with SCS - it was not easy to get, and it was feels like a big reward. Game with absence of noticeable rewards are sucks, and in BG1 case it is too long way before you reach even chapter 2 (well without difficulty mod it is not a problem to rush in mines, but... for not experienced player it is anyway hard way). And (in my taste) there is too few good items in BG1, or their progression so strange, that you are can't like them. So, i'm prefer instead focus on characters and love them and their abilities (even if half of their cool abilities are remains in mind - waiting for levelup, waiting for another levelup, imagine how you smashwashwhack enemies, but you meet Ghoul(?) which you perma-paralyze, and there is close tomb, so you can't kite (even if allow it for self), you doesn't have magical bullets in sling - whoa!
I would start by scrapping one-handed and two-handed styles and replace them with Finesse (+thac0,APR) and Power (+damage,crit). Some weapons could support only one style (daggers, flails), some could use both and if the character has enough pips he could put them to both styles and switch between them. Eh crit is not that big deal. It can´t break trough magical protections, some enemies are immune to it. Range down to 15 is still just random 25% and it requires some stacking effort to get there. Yes the autohit is sort of pseudo thac0, but I think that simple thac0 bonus is stronger. About it not being fun - dunno everyone i know loves scoring criticals
Also giving way too much APR will lessen its value. If warrior has 3 APR and caster 1 APR, than the warrior is 3x times better fighter. But if the caster has 2APR and the warrior has 4 APR, than the warrior is only 2x times better fighter, despite the numerical difference being the same.
Give the Bash spell full range (255), so it never fails.
Leave Condition as When Attacked.
Create a new projectile for it:
As for criticals - in original game nothing allow exceed 19-20 critical range. May be old Luck spell grant this, but as i'm feel - in SR it is definitely not (may be old also doesn't increase it, i'm doesn't remember). Technically 18-20 can work nicely. At least if it is only one style which provides crits... But in that case we should be sure that you can't increase own critical range too much from other sources, otherwise it is ruins already weak balance.
From Item Revision side you should have some items which increase critical range:
Archer Eyes: +5% crit for ranged attacks, +1DEX
Bruenor's Waraxe: +5% crit
Long Bow of Marksmapship: +10% crit
Heavy Crossbow of Accruacy: +10% crit
Neb's Nasty Cutter (dagger): +5% crit
Gloves of Rogue: +5% crit
Wyrmcleaver (halberd): +10% crit
Malakar Companion (short sowrd): +5% crit
Backbiter (spear): +10% crit
Martial Staff: +10% crit
Blade of Shapness: +15% crit (!!!)
Malakar: +5% crit
Silver Sword: +10% crit
Not so many (no greatswords here), but... rogues with proper setup can crit a lot here.
Not thrilled for that one. My charname's usually end up with too many special abilities as is.
It´s quite simple frankly. You pick one style at character creation, just like you did up until now. The code should detect it just as it detects extra APR from SwS now and apply the correct bonuses.
Only if you decide to invest the pips and develop the other style in pararel you get to make the choice .... but hey you can´t realy complain here, it was you who picked it. It should still only be feasible to warriors, who generaly don´t get that much abilities anyway. I honestly don´t see a problem here - it is a new ability that is completely optional, definitly won´t be used in every fight and will probably be feasible to only 1-2 party members.
My understanding at the time was that you'd need to turn it on on a regular basis, not set-and-forget.
Subtledoctor's comment up-thread about set-and-forget unless you happen to have two styles makes a lot of sense.
I am kidding, of course. The new Shield Bash is a must-have, and the stat bonus tweaks make sense.
What that could mean is that
- shields could simply be another weapon proficiency like small blades or blunt weapons. One that could grant a better and better shield bash as you get more proficient, and maybe AC bonus.
- 2hs, sws and dual wielding could be instead split into heavy handedness (try googling heavy handed fighting), rapidity and defensive fighting.
- Heavy handedness would only give bonuses to damage and crits.
- rapidity is equal to APR bonuses only (e.g. three pips, each 0.5 APR to Main hand, second & third pip also each give 0.5 APR to offer hand)
- defensive fighting gives bonus to AC, and grants ability to either do off hand attack with a weapon, or do a number of counter punches pr round if unarmed or armed with a single handed melee weapon only (no shield)
Thac0 bonuses and precisions would be determined by weapon proficiency only, not generic fighting "style" skills.
That would be another way to deal with the styles issue at least.
PS: Just create new F/M, in log appears some invalid entries. I'm unfortunately can't resolve this.