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[MOD] -Scales of Balance- a post-hac tweak mod

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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    Interesting. I like the wizard additions (the general idea at least if not the implementation). I'm not sure that I see the use of the conjuration cantrip. I wouldn't be against simply replacing the wizard slayer (I think I replaced the berserker with a Warmain like kit a while ago--i.e. from Pathfinder.)

    What are you going to do for the spells for the CHORISTER?

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  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,876
    Even if this mod is not PnP friendly, its kit concepts look interesting thus far. I really like that you're planning to do the Beastheart of Malar specialty priest kit as well, though I'm more familiar with the Talon of Malar kit myself. No matter... he's my third favourite deity after Ghaunadaur and Auril. :)

    by the way have you thought about including the Lost Druid kit? You can find this necromantic, semi-undead tree hugger within the Complete Druid's Handbook if you're interested.

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    A lot of nice ideas. I like the cantrip ideas, but maybe make them more like a normal spell and make them usable 1/per 4 levels or something.

    I will post more ideas / comments when I'm later (really tired now)

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited August 2014
    So as I promise, more ideas and stuff:

    I like the new shapes and kit differations. Will they have the basic stats or are they improved/fixed?
    For example Werwolf and Greater Werewolf have incorrect damage regen etc.

    Cantrips are nice, but I'm not sure if they would work good in the game. Some seem to be usefull till lategame others are not. But having a unique spell per Kit is a nice thing. I need to think more!

    TRUECLASS FIGHTERS & BERSERKERS nice idea not much to add

    KENSAI maybe give him a defence stance/parry to compensate that he can only use one weapon (if it is possible)

    THE SWASHBUCKLER like the idea of having it as a fighter kit. How about a True strick or precise strick etc.

    THE MARKSMAN also good to have it as a fighter, more room for new ranger kits

    THE WIZARD SLAYER as Ranger should be fine. Maybe call it Mage Hunter and give him abilitys like disrupting shot, Breaching shot etc. , but no ranger spells.

    Maybe also a Dark Ranger, so a ranger that makes evil partys happy.

    rest will be commented next time.

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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    edited August 2014

    ...KENSAI do not functionally, in this game, reflect the kit description. They are supposed to choose one weapon and train with it exclusively. If I can make it work, I will implement that. At 1st level the kensai will choose a weapon to focus on; he will then be able to reach grandmastery with that weapon, and will be able to specialize in single-weapon fighting and dual-wielding. He will not be able to put pips into any other weapon or any other style. Hopefully I can make this work...

    You can easily restrict him to specific weapon styles, but that first bit--selecting one weapon with which you can reach grandmastery--is difficult and may not be satisfactorily feasible. The easiest way that I can think of is you could implement the choice at installation, creating a number of variants each with different grandmastery options, and giving the choice to install that particular one.

    I REALLY like the idea of a Ranger wizardslayer. I missed this earlier. You could give him a lot of unique anti-wizard spells that might not be useful against non-casters (as a start); this would be a bonus and a penalty in itself. This would only be applicable for when they get spells--are you thinking of implementing early spell progression as the revisions mods?--Please do get rid of the magic restrictions.

    I like restricting the berserker to mastery, though I am not sure about the rage changes.

    For Thief kits, you really should take advantage of all the BGEE changes you can make to the skill system. At the very least, I think you should allow them to use scrolls and wands (preferably at higher levels if you can figure out how to do that. But they can only use what they can find/buy, and so it might not be such a big deal in the early parts of the game.) I like the adventurer.

    Some ideas:

    Trueclass: More skill points(?) I created an ability for them that I called "the rogues bag of tricks". The idea was that they could create a number of impromptu items to help them in their travels. One example was 'impromptu lock picks'. This gave them a small bonus to picking locks. The main advantage, really, was that it allowed the thief to attempt to pick locks after a failure rather than have to wait until they level up (or more likely reload) thereby reducing metagaming. I also had a smoke bomb (acquired at a higher level) that gave them a very short term invisibility that allowed them to escape from sticky situations. The ability is also something that can be traded for kit abilities (in addition to skills and backstab.)

    Mechanics that are good with devices (traps and locks), and can create a few of their own, but are terrible at hiding/stealthing/picking pockets and can't backstab (presumably their devices would compensate somewhat. You can make invested skillpoints half-count or double count for thieves in BGEE, yes?

    Thugs: higher hit points, and some skill with weapons, and possibly an ability to intimidate, but less skill points and no bag of tricks and no magic item use(if you were to use something like that.)

    Delver: Dungeon crawler par excellence! More skill points, more lore, more use of the bag o tricks, but not so good at backstabby.

    Soulknife: From song and silence. It's just an interesting and unique class.


    Elven Bladesinger: Great idea that needs to be toned down a bit. A lot actually. I would reduce lore down to wizard levels, no free proficiency and allow them specialization in swords. Um, and no offensive spin (or will you change it to match pnp?) Also, I don't think being an elf is in any real way a disadvantage.

    The loremaster is great!

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,855
    I like the idea of a mod kit that is functional with both games, if you can get all this working well and up and running through the whole saga, well then hats off to you my friend, and I would install promptly.

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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577


    You can easily restrict [to specific weapon styles, but that first bit--selecting one weapon with which you can reach grandmastery--is difficult and may not be satisfactorily feasible. The easiest way that I can think of is you could implement the choice at installation...

    I'm not at all sure that I can do this. I tend to make somewhat minor changes to things (re-using existing powers/spells, etc) not because I'm so in love with balanced kits, but because my modding skills are not very good. I'm investigating whether this kensai change is something I can do; I have a lead on a method that might work - we shall see. But no promises, and no promises about implementing any other good ideas, such as your notes on thieves, because creative ideas = hard, usually, and for me hard = impossible.
    This suggestion would be pretty easy, I think. I have very little time these days, but I'll investigate and get back to you. (probably next week)

    As for the thief suggestions, I've done a lot of work already implementing these changes (though for BG2) or similar changes. You can have what I created if you want. I just don't have time to mod anymore. But there would still be a lot of work yet to be done.

    I REALLY like the idea of a Ranger wizardslayer. I missed this earlier. Please do get rid of the magic restrictions.

    Only thing is, if Wizard Slayer Rangers can Spell Deflect and Spell Thrust and maybe Breach (maybe Breach on hit? that would be cool, it might be possible) and normal rangers can't, what's the trade-off? Armor restrictions are overplayed... surely we can think of a good disadvantage.
    Personally, I was thinking that the disadvantages would be that he didn't have other useful spells, that could be used against non-mages (e.g. healing.) The idea was that he had a lot of useful spells, but that were only basically useful vs. mages.

    I like restricting the berserker to mastery, though I am not sure about the rage changes.

    Unfortunately, I think if I simply nerfed berserkers and didn't do anything else, certain people on these boards would burn down the internet. I think the rage should make them substantially better in combat, and I think an extra attack per round is a reasonable, theme-appropriate advantage. I also think it should only be usable once a day or so, and they should be winded after it, and they should be unable to cast spells or use other abilities during it, and it should NOT protect from Maze/Imprisonment (I mean come on, it makes no sense).
    I get ya. They have been banging their heads against the berserker rage in the KR boards for years.

    Elven Bladesinger: Great idea that needs to be toned down a bit. A lot actually.

    The actual PnP Bladesinger kit is completely broken, roughly in line with this one. I know it's ridiculous, but there's a certain honesty in its ridiculousness. And here's the real hook: Xan needs to be this kit. NEEDS to be. :)
    Got ya! :)

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  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    I leave some days and a lot happend. Need more time for constructive feedback!
    Locks realy nice so far. Post feedback tonight.

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,333
    Don't worry about the value of "x", anything, even duplicates or just "ABILITY", will work.

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited August 2014
    Ok first part of comments and hopefully good ideas

    - TRUECLASS: is it possible to give them some spell casting in shape change? Maybe also some innate ability depended on the animal -> Spider gets web etc.
    - LYCANTHROPIC DRUIDS: Will this work with shapeshift bug-fixes / improvements? Like the mod that give you symbolic paws as item to prevent dispel?
    - AVENGER DRUIDS: Great, no better ideas. Maybe innates or spell casting too
    - TOTEMIC DRUIDS: Maybe allow them to become there Totem shape

    - I like the idea, but for me it doesn’t feel round. But that could be just my perception.
    - Improving the Generalist is not a bad idea. And making scrolls potions early does not sound to powerfull
    - Still need to think more about good ideas for caster
    - Maybe give specialist 2 opposed spell schools and some innates to compensate.

    - TRUECLASS FIGHTERS: I don’t want to steal or copy to much but combat stances could be a good thing. Like the idea that pure fighter is the only on who can freely chose his grand-mastery
    - BERSERKERS: not much to change or say.
    - KENSAI: Maybe make a install option for the weapons that make most sense. Maybe make it like Weapon groups. For example Blunt Weapon Kensai gets the option to Grandmaster Maces/Warhammers/Clubs/fails or blade Kensai short/long/bastard/towhanded etc. and each is just a different install option
    - THE CORSAIR: Sounds well rounded so far
    - WIZARD SLAYER: Maybe leave him untouched, because the is a pretty good revision mod for him
    - THE MARKSMAN: Makes sense to me

    - TRUECLASS: Early magic access would relay be appreciated
    - FOREST RUNNER: Everybody likes Robin Hood!
    - ARCHER: Maybe call it Elfen Archer and make it only available for Elfes
    - STALKER: Like the new ideas. For me a Stalker is like a Urban Ranger/Tracker who hunts down people.
    - BEASTMASTER: Any chance to give him a Beast companion? I think there is a mod that adds a Djinni as 7th party member -> maybe implement the Animal Companion in the same way. Also I never understood why a wild man can’t use normal weapons. I mean ok druids don’t like metal, but the Beastmaster is to stupid to wield a Axt?
    - MAGE HUNTER: I really like it. Maybe add some nice fluff for it.
    - HALFLING SLINGER: Cool thing. Maybe make Mazzy one and let her keep her special abilities. Also changing her bow to a sling would be cool.

    - TRUECLASS: Early magic access would relay be appreciated. Maybe some unique spells like holy weapon etc.
    Maybe give all Paladins a different spelllist and make trueclass most versatile.
    - BULWARK OF HELM: Keep it as before. Was already very powerful
    - NECROBANE OF KELEMVOR: Extended spelllist with anti undead spells ? Maybe allow 3 pips in blunt weapons?
    - PARAGON OF TORM: Extended spelllist with protection for others. Maybe allow 3 pips in blade weapons?

    - not much to add right know -> looks good

    - TRUECLASS: Should be the most versatile (keep the most theif points)
    - SWASHBUCKLER: Fine class, can stay
    - ADVENTURER: Sounds well rounded
    - SHARPSHOOTER: Sounds like a good addition
    - SHADOWDANCER: If possible, remove HipS (to powerful in my vie) and add some more shadow spells /Illusions (Invisible, mirror image etc.) . Also being able to summon shadows would be awesome.Maybe give him 20 skillpoints per level or a boost on hide and stealth.
    - ASSASSIN: Need more skills points (20?). More poisons (debuff, stun etc.)
    - BOUNTY HUNTER: It would be awesome to have more trapps (maybe a webtrap, sleepgas etc.)

    - BLADESINGER: Nice, only that I don't like elves ;) But thats me, they think they are better than us! ;)
    - SKALDS:More fighting sounds good. And should still be balanced, because you need to decide if to fight or sing you powerfull song. Is it possible to remove spellcasting for him, if yes make him an even better fighter.
    - JESTER: is nice can stay.
    - LOREMASTER: Sounds like a good addition
    - JONGLEUR:Sounds like a good addition
    - CHORISTER: Sounds like a good addition
    - DUSKBLADE: New old idea. Is it possible to remove the song and pickpocket all together? Ok maybe than it is no Bard anymore but it could use the bard as basic. Maybe with a Cleric Thac0? I would love this!

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  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited August 2014
    The make name things better than unnamed idea is great!
    +1/+2... realy breaks some immersion.
    Also I thin bastard sword could use a buff (1d9 maybe)

    I chould have read PROFICIENCY TWEAKS before posting. Man this would be a nice thing to have!

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  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315

    On the other hand, I have run into a bit of a pickle, in that I think my re-branding was not wise, because there is another mod out there that presumably also uses the "KR" shorthand/prefix. (To be fair the reason I missed it is that it has been unfinished for tears, *ahem @Demivrgvs‌* :P ). So I think it's going to be back to "Scales of Balance" unless a better name comes to me or is suggested to me.

    I'm the one who suffer the most from not having my mods quickly released and compatible with BGEE (though EE itself is responsible in a certain sense). :( But trust me, releasing an "independent" mod is much easier than releasing a Revisions one which has to be compatible with multiple platforms and hundreds of mods (e.g. a lot of your spell tweaks are not fully compatible with SCS) while also meeting high standards and expectations.

    Anyway, the current KR's beta doesn't contain all kits but works quite well, and is fully compatible with BGEE.

    Last but not least, IR and SR betas are going really well (thanks to some very helpful beta testers), and I expect those two mods to reach the final build within this month. :) Then I will focus entirely on KR and I already have tons of surprises for it. ;)

    Darkersun said:

    TRUECLASS FIGHTERS: I don’t want to steal or copy to much but combat stances could be a good thing.

    See above about light touch. Frankly I don't really like the ideas in the Kit Revisions mod - which is shocking because I love everything else @Demivrgvs‌ does. These kits should be considered a less aggressive, incompatible alternative to Kit Revisions. (But I am designing it to be 100% compatible with SR and IR.)
    May I ask what you don't like about KR's kits? I admit I've been a bit aggressive with kits that really needed it imo, such as the Wizard Slayer, and to a lesser extent the True Fighter, but overall I didn't thought it could be considered too much drastic.

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  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    edited August 2014
    @subtledoctor don't worry I do noticed the :P I'm just verbose like you and wanted to spend 2 minutes trying to explain why KR evolved so slowly (to say the least).

    Sorry if my "not fully compatible" sounded harsh, but the statement actually remains true. What I meant is that while you may accept compromises as long as the AI behavior still "looks fine" I cannot do that for various reasons. SCS in particular is very demanding, but even vanilla AI is affected (to a lesser extent only because it isn't optimized to begin with).

    NOTE: as a player you may not even notice that the AI acts sub-optimally because of certain tweaks, but it still does. You are free to willingly ignore it (in some cases I would as well) as the gameplay may still look smooth depending on the tweak, and maybe it will even be more enjoyable for some (e.g. I do not like myself that the AI always perfectly know your resistances/immunities).

    Few examples:
    - Horrid Wilting dmg type is indeed odd (I wanted to change it too), but SCS specifically uses ProEnergy to defend from it and do not cast HW against creatures with Magic Dmg Resistance >50%. If you change the dmg type the result is that the AI may not cast HW at vulnerable targets (or vice versa), and it may think to be protected by HW when it's not.
    - the same is true for your suggested Skull Trap dmg type change.
    - replacing PfMW with Stoneskin will screw SCS AI (e.g. mage consider himself safe and not in need of buffs when he is instead very vulnerable), and partially mess up RR's AI (aVENGER AI smartly uses non-magical weapons agains PfMW).
    - replacing Stoneskin with Mirror Image may look fine on paper, but if you do not update the DETECTABLE SPELLs system the AI cannot properly take into account the change.

    Generally speaking, a lot of those tweaks will look fine while playing, but in reality only players are able to react accordingly to those changes. You may not see the AI doing extremely stupid stuff, but nonetheless you are still crippling it.

    Regarding KR, I think I get your point about "doing smaller tweaks". That's what I generally try to do myself, but non-spellcasters felt so plain that I thought it was a good thing adding them a bit more options to spice their gameplay (note: 99% of what you see on my mods is PnP based)
    Speaking of me adding new magical powers (you edited your post to tone down that comment eh? :P) I actually strived to not give magical powers to warriors (e.g. even the Wizard Slayer is a pure martial fighter) and if it was for me Paladins and Rangers in particular would not have spellcasting at all but I had to deal with hardcoded stuff. :(

    End of my rant. Btw, I wish good luck to you and your mod, and even if the above may look like "bashing your mod" I'm actually trying to give my help. :)


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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    I believe that you can still scribe scrolls even if you can't use them unless they are specifically excluded from your usability. (Also, they will be selectable for first level created mages, mage/bards created in bg2(ee or not) and all sorcerers. Granted, there is hidespl.2da (spelling?) but that is no good for spells you want to be selectable by someone, and it doesn't address the scribe issue. As it stands, the wild mage can scribe/select anything that is possible to scribe/select because there is no exclude wild mage flag at all.

    Hence my request for more exclusion flags!

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    BTW, I like the suggested changes to items to include mundane, but high quality items. I'm not a fan of the Christmas tree magic item bloat that infects d&d. The fewer, though more special and interesting, magic items the better. I should say that I don't mind consumable items, though even some of these might move over to mundane but useful quasimagical alchemical items

  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @subtledoctor I haven't read all the first post, but the 'all named magic items are +3' thing sounds more like a cosmetic tweak rather than something which may affect game balance, or am I missing something?

    Overall I do agree with @Grammarsalad that BG2 have really too much magic stuff, but there's little I can do about it imo.

    Regarding the INT requirements on scrolls I can already tell you that yes, KR mages will need it too to use them or learn spells from them. This is a nice way to make sure KR's thieves won't be going around casting high level spells (unless they have mage-like INT) but at the same time to give mages a real reason to invest on that stat. On a side note, IR's items which increase INT will also become more appealing. :)

    I do thought about preventing Bards from using certain scrolls (ideally I'd like bards to not be able to learn necromancy and evocation stuff - UAI might still allow them to cast those spells via scrolls - while focusing on enchantments and illusions) but such tweak would not be taken into account during character creation (e.g. creating a BG2 character you can still learn forbidden spells without a proper exclusion flag).

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,577
    edited August 2014
    I've been out of the loop for a bit, but I recall that one couldn't prevent bards, e.g., from scribing scrolls by merely making said scrolls unusable by them. My understanding was that the bard wouldn't be able to cast a spell from the scroll, but would still be able to scribe the spell.

    My understanding was that the only way to prevent, eg a bard, from being able to scribe a scroll was to create a bard kit with a specialist mage usability thereby preventing them from learning spells of the opposed school.

    Am I wrong about this? I could have sworn that you told me this.

    Edit: for clarity


    I remember that the Imp talked about a very interesting and clever workaround. Essentially, you disallowed eg the True Bard from selection (via k_b_x.2da or whatever it was) but created a kit with said usability flags--whatever they were--and so anybody selecting the class would select the true bard like any kit and have the associated exclusion flags.

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  • DemivrgvsDemivrgvs Member Posts: 315
    @Grammarsalad afaik if you make the scroll fully unusable for a bard he won't be able to use it at all, be it for casting the spell or learning it. That being said, UAI will allow him to learn those spells anyway without an exclusion flag.

    Afaik making bards use a different "hidden kit" has very few advantages and clear flaws.

    @subtledoctor what about thac0/dmg values? All magical weapons become +3 enchanted with +x thac0/dmg where is x value is? I'd probably say +1 for balance's sake.

    Regardless, let me say that concept wise I really really like it. I always hated the whole +1, +2, +3 stuff and relative immunities (vulnerability to special materials is waaay better imo, as long as it's vulnerability and not another immunity).

    Ages ago I wanted to simply remove the whole "immune to +x" stuff and limit all of them to simply "immune to non-magical weapons", but most players seemed against it, and even more so other modders. You solution is even better conceptually because it not only removes the silly "how am I supposed to know if this monster immune to +1 or +2" thing but also the "oh no this really cool +1 weapon now sucks because it cannot harm at all 50% of my enemies".

    BUT, in terms of implementation I fear that turning all magical weapons into +3 ones can heavily mess up the game balance unless the above mentioned +x is just +1, and even then the balance between the same weapon class will be turned upside down because you are buffing low-tier weapons while also hugely nerfing top-tier ones (e.g. BG1 Varscona is suddenly on par with Underdark's Blade of Searing).

    To properly implement your tweak imo you should not only just affect enchantment level, but also check the effective enhancements each and every weapon has and properly balance it. For example, within IR:
    - Stonefire has a solid +2 enchantment and +1d4 fire dmg (+1 enhancement bonus)
    - Frostreaver is only +1 enchanted, but it has both +1d4 cold dmg and a Slow effect (+2 enhancement bonus)
    With your tweak these weapons are no longer of similar power lvl, Frostreaver becomes hugely more powerful and completely outshine Stonefire.

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