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[MOD] -Scales of Balance- a post-hac tweak mod

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Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Yeah - it functionally drops the number of enchantment levels from 5 to 4 (it now goes +1, +2, +3, +5); but it *feels* like it drops the number to 3 ("enchanted," named weapons, artifacts) which I think is close to ideal. Not perfect, but pretty good for BG.

    I didn't touch anything but the enchantment level. Some weapons are still more powerful than others... some named weapons +3 are weaker than generic enchanted weapons +2. Going in and balancing everything (and accounting for other, underlying mods like IR) will be work for a second pass, after the basic change is finished.

    @Grammarsalad‌ If I'm understanding you, the 'unusable by' flag means you can't put the scroll into a quick slot, by you can still have it in your inventory; and if it's in your inventory then you can right-click it and learn the spell. If that's the case then yeah, seems like this idea is shot down (barring complicated workarounds).

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    edited August 2014
    @subtledoctor‌ it looks like I was wrong about that according to @Demivrgvs‌ . There is still the matter of use any item and selection at creation (though you can block that with hidespl.2da--you will be blocking anybody--eg sorcerers--from selecting said spell however.)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Okay another question: does it matter how many columns a CLABxx.2da file has? Depending on a player's modlist, they might have rules extending to level 30, level 40, or level 50. Is it a problem for one row in a CLAB file to have 10 extra instances of "**** " at the end of the row? Or will it mess with the game's ability to read the next row?

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488

    Okay another question: does it matter how many columns a CLABxx.2da file has? Depending on a player's modlist, they might have rules extending to level 30, level 40, or level 50. Is it a problem for one row in a CLAB file to have 10 extra instances of "**** " at the end of the row? Or will it mess with the game's ability to read the next row?

    I don't think it matters but the best way to know is try it and see if something breaks

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited August 2014
    Thanks for taking the time and reading my big post of random thoughts :)

    So about the weapon enchantment tweak, just that I understand it correctly:
    - Weapons keep there enchantment level +1, +2, +3 etc. for damage and Thac0.
    - When checking what they can hit they will have three levels: enchanted (can hit some magical monsters), named (can hit most things like demons etc.), artifact (can hit everything except mages under absolute immunity?).

    About the Duskblade (3e base class) its like a single class Fighter/Mage with less spellcasting but more dynamic. (http://dndtools.eu/classes/duskblade/). (I'm not a big fan of Dual/Multi classes mechanics, but thats just me)
    - Can learn spells till level 5
    - Cast spells in Light & Medium armor
    - Can channel some spells to meele

    There is a mod that does a good job with it but it cannot learn spells or use scrolls etc.
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/29633/mod-duskblade-kit-v1-1-for-bg1-ee-and-bg2-ee/p1
    So my request could be over the top.

    There is also a similar class called Hexblade (http://dndtools.eu/classes/hexblade/)
    Maybe it would be a better thing, because it has no mod for BG1/2:EE.
    - Curses enemies, Aura of Unluck etc.
    - Has a dark feeling (restricted to neutral or evil)
    - Can learn spells till level 4
    - Gain Familiar at level 4

    But that are just nice Kits I like, so not important for you mod (but if you like them to I would love to see them in your mod)
    (There is also an older mod that implements some good kits, but sadly its not compatible with EE know

    About:
    MISCELLANEOUS .2da TWEAKS
    - HIT POINT TWEAKS: I'm with you. I never liked how it progressed. Very week to very though does not feel realistic.
    - They sound all very convenient and make sense

    Also having the mod compatible with SR mod and IR mod sounds nice (these to are my favorites so far)
    Maybe a list of recommended mods would be nice to. Also is there a specific install order? I think yours go last right?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Re: weapon tweaks, yes, exactly.

    Re: recommended mods, yes as I get new versions out I will include in the Readme more discussion of compatibility and mod recommendations. These changes have been designed on top of mods like SR, IR, RR and a few others (though of course it should work fine on a vanilla install too). It is also designed to work well with Full Plate and Packing Steel - I'm going to include an alternate configuration file that will balance FPPS for the changes in this mod.

    Re: install order, yes this is being built to go late in the order. While other mods might overwrite this one, SoB should (as of version 0.21/0.3 which will be posted any day now) play nicely with almost anything installed before it.

    Re: Duskblade ah, 3e. No wonder I don't know it. I just glanced at that other mod... and it is pretty ridiculous. Mostly ridiculous for being a fighter kit, with the fighter thac0 and XP tables. For F/M kits like that and the Bladesinger, using the bard class (and nerfing/disabling song and PP) tends to be a better way to implement them.

    As for me implementing them... probably not for the first pass. It's already taking me forever to to what I've written above, and I already have the material for most of those changes (the .spl and .itm and .2da files) ready to go on my computer. A new kit from scratch would take longer.

    Speaking of which, I was just told that mods adding kits aren't working in EE v1.2. Is that right? I thought the problem was fixed, but I'm seeing conflicting information out there on the interwebz. Anyone have a definitive answer? I'm going to continue this anyway, at least for GOG installs and to get the prof/item tweaks on EE. But any definitive information would be useful.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    @‌subtledoctor

    Kit mods work in 1.2. I cant post at,length now and I'm not at my computer, but later I'll explain and/or link you to an explanation

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    If it works, no worries. It's just that I've heard a lot of people say "Beamdog messed up kit mods" and the 1.3 patch notes even say "we fixed compatibility with kit mods."

    I'm still going to work on this, 1) for GOG installs; 2) for the prof, item, spell and vanilla kit balance tweaks; and 3) for EE 1.3, which will probably be out before I finish.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    edited August 2014

    If it works, no worries. It's just that I've heard a lot of people say "Beamdog messed up kit mods" and the 1.3 patch notes even say "we fixed compatibility with kit mods."

    I'm still going to work on this, 1) for GOG installs; 2) for the prof, item, spell and vanilla kit balance tweaks; and 3) for EE 1.3, which will probably be out before I finish.

    sorry, I wasn't clear. It works but there are some extra steps (which integrate many unhardcoded features). They "broke" kits by allowing one more options in creating them.

    Edit: create your kits as normal for now. It can be amended easily at any time

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 7,372
    Really impressed with the work you are putting in here, thinking about installing pretty soon actually :)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Wait for v0.21/v0.3 - I've totally revamped the code for the druids and wizards to be more considerate and compatible with other mods. It'll be posted in a day or so. And new components going forward should be similar.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    I totaly understand that you first want to finish the work before adding new kits. I just though if you add a Bladesinger maybe add a slighty differnt Kit for non Elfs ;)
    Waiting for 2.1, than I will try a first run.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    It's only because the Bladesinger is 1) basically a Blade, minus Defensive Spin, and 2) is already sitting on my hard drive. The first pass isn't about making anything new; it's just WeiDU-izing stuff that's already in my override folder. For instance the halfling Slinger kit probably isn't going to make it into v1, which means elves will have *two* exclusive kits and halflings won't have any. That's not ideal, but hopefully it will be temporary.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    So, while I'm away from my computer I can't code, only think. So here's a pie-in-the-sky question for anyone listening: would it be possible to create a spell effect (applied via HLA as AP_SPCLxxx) that looks at the spells in a PC's spellbook, and replaces them with other spells. Like, if the PC knows SPWI101, it will be replaced by SPWI101a, etc.

    My idea is to revamp the Improved Alacrity power. Make copies of every spell, but add an effect that cleanses the caster's aura 4 seconds into a round. If all of the caster's known spells are replaced by copies that have this aura-cleansing effect, the caster will be able to cast spells every 4 seconds instead of every 6 seconds.

    I think that would be a much more all-around useful HLA for mages, than the current spell that just gives them an occasional insta-burst of spellcasting. I could create the spell copies easily enough, but I don't know how hard it would be to selectively replace a PC's entire spell book with them.

    (Hopefully by this weekend I'll have the time to do more of the features I already planned! Fighter and Ranger revisions are up next in v.3, along with improved compatibility code for the Druids and Wizards components.)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    ...Aaaand v0.3 is posted. I'm getting the hang of this. Druids shapechages, wizard cantrips, fighter rebalancing, and 2 new fighter kits! The Corsair, which is a swashbuckling fighter, and the Marksman, a fighter skilled with bows & crossbows and with a few different Called Shot abilities. This makes 5 installable components, out of a projected ~60. Rangers are up next (maybe this weekend if I have time), and I'm getting outside help for the Kensai revision.

    BUT if you installed v0.2 PLEASE UNINSTALL it first, then move this into your game folder and install it. A bunch of file prefixes have changed to make this as compatible as possible with other mods. :) From here on out, updating should be much simpler.

    Also, input requested: for simplicity's sake I just gave the Marksman the same item usability as the Archer. This makes sense, since they are extremely similar kits; but on the other hand it means some Ranger-only items will be usable by this fighter kit (though, I can't think of any such items off the top of my head), and it means the Marksman can only wear leather armors. So: is there another class/kit that would be better to mimic here? Maybe Barbarian - most items usable, and armor up to splint mail? (I never play Barbarians, I don't recall if they have any other item restrictions.)

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    edited August 2014
    I don't think you'll have a usability problem (i.e. Marksman able to use ranger only items). Usability can be best understood as unusability and the starting point for any kit is it's base class. There are other hardcoded features (eg shadowdancer hips; blackguard not falling; barred schools, etc.) that are attached to usability that can be useful in creating kits.

    What this means is that first your marksman will be unable to use any item barred to a fighter (so, no ranger only items), then unable to use any item barred to an archer. There is a new opcode in bgee that adds usability I think, but I don't know exactly how it works atm.
    Edit:
    If you don't want any restrictions beyond fighter, then you can just give him fighter usability (i think 0x...400 or 0x...4000)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Okay, I get that. But, do people think the Archer restriction make sense? I think some limits do - ranged troops are/were generally lightly armored, benefitting from mobility since they're not front-liners. In BG/D&D 2e, contrary to real life and logic, there is no downside to wearing full plate mail. So in vanilla the benefits of not wearing plate are sort of expressed as a restriction from equipping it.

    So Marksmen wearing up to chain/splint or so seems about right. The question then becomes what's the best way to implement it. Giving them the Barbarian 'unusability' code is easy... I'm just wondering if there are unintended consequences I haven't thought of. (Are there any items in the game that are unusable by barbarians but should be usable by Marksmen?)

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    It would be trivially easy to give a penalty to ranged weapons when wearing heavy armors. Makes conceptual sense anyway

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Trivial to make the penalty; not so trivial to apply it to every armor, including mod-added ones. Coding the item portion of this mod in WeiDU is already going to be a painful slog!

    I think a DEX penalty is better... but I think a total armor revamp in the vein of FPPS is even better than that. I hesitate to spend more hours on this when I know I plan to install the FPPS mod immediately after this one. I'd like to focus on the aspects of this mod that aren't already handled by other, already excellent mods. At the moment, that means kits and proficiencies.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    it could run into difficulties if said mods don't follow naming conventions, that is true. But you would have the same problem eg adding dex penalties or with any mass patching which would be essential to maintaining compatibility.

    But i certainly understand the desire to minimize your workload

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    edited August 2014
    Everything you need is there ^

    Edit: d'oh! I forgot about read byte! So yeah, trivial. |

    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Good stuff, looks like something I can figure out without too much trouble. I already used that guide to learn ACTION_IF and SET_2DA_ENTRY and REPLACE_TEXTUALLY, which is making for a much cleaner install than I had in earlier versions. The most complicated part of this will probably be when I add the revised proficiency system, I'm going to have to add a bunch of ACTION_IFs and duplicate a lot of the stuff already in here.

    (I assume those methods work for editing creatures too? If I have a component collapsing some weapon proficiencies - say, make all bows use longbow proficiency - I'll need to find all creatures with proficiency in short bows and give the longbow as well.)

    Btw I'm working on the kensai stuff, and I added 15 hidden kits. The component installs fine, but when I start up BGEE the game is giving me "can't add columns" errors. Which is weird because I included the 'LAF fl#add_kit_ee' code as per instructions. The Corsair and Marksman run just fine but these kensai kits are causing error messages.

    EDIT: took the file down, I think I've figured this out, it's a bug in EE 1.2. I've actually got the kensai component working brilliantly right now for 1st-level starts (i.e. BGT, Tutu, and BG1EE) but not for SoA or ToB starts. Once I fix the scripting to account for higher levels I'll include it in the mod.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    CrevsDaak
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    Sorry, I'm not sure I understand, and I can't open the zip with this device. Are you just omitting k_f_h (ie human entries) or k_f_x (ie all entries) ? And when exactly are you getting the error?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Sorry, I'll be clearer: it's nothing to do with the k_f_h entries (I just edited the above post to reflect this). There are no WeiDU errors in the Terminal when installing the component - everything goes smoothly. Everything looks correct in NI. The errors pop up when launching BGEE - specifically, after hitting "play" to go from the launcher to the game itself. Then, after clicking "okay" through about half a dozen error dialogues, the game starts and the kits are present and functional.

    And to clarify further: the errors are the same ones (I think) that started appearing when EE was bumped to v1.2 and some kit functions were externalized. The "fl#add_kit_ee" function was added to WeiDU to deal with it; the function works for the Corsair and Marksman kits in SoB v0.31 in this thread's OP, but is causing errors with these kensai kits. I can't figure out why.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    That may be beyond my pay grade but I'll see if I can make sense of it later

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    So here is my conclusion so far: when I install two kits, the game plays fine. When I install three kits, I get one error message when starting the game (but then it plays fine). When I install four kits, I get two error messages when starting the game (but then it plays fine). When I install five kits... eh, you see the pattern. So it's not my code, it's apparently a simple limitation of EE. (Again, the kits actually play just fine, everything seems to work 100%... but it's kind of disconcerting for a player to have to click through those inscrutable error messages and trust that the mod really didn't mess up your game.)

    And I'm on the cusp of finishing up SoB v0.4, with three new ranger kits in addition to the two fighter kits. This is such crap. Hello, @Beamdog?? Please tell me this is a bug - and that it is being fixed in 1.3!

    Well, I'm going to continue plugging away, and advise people to use this with the GOG version (or just click through those messages) until EE sorts itself out.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    Looks like this will be fixed in 1.3

    CrevsDaak
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Nice! In the meantime, I'm uploading v0.4 with Ranger changes: a revamped spellcasting table, and the elf-only Archer kit and the halfling-only Slinger kit (the Marksman fighter kit is designed for the other races). On EE, the Slinger is a ranger kit (halflings are allowed to be pure rangers or Slingers); on GOG, it will be a ranger kit if you have TobEx installed, or a fighter kit otherwise.

    Plus I added the Mage Hunter, which can cast Shocking Touch, Deafness (as 1st-level spells), Remove Magic, Minor Spell Deflection (as 2nd-level spells) and Spell Thrust, Breach, Non-Detection (as 3rd-level spells. No Charm Animal and -1 penalties to STR and CON, similar to the Avenger. The Stalker loses its special spells.

    Again, based on my quick testing this DOES work on EE v1.2, you just need to click through a few error boxes when you start playing.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,384
    edited August 2014
    Okay, looking for expert help and feedback on two issues:

    1) Opcode experts: I'd like make a ranger kit that cannot cast spells, but I can't figure out a good way to do this. If I use the "disable button" opcode then they still can't cast if/when they dual to cleric, and there doesn't seem to be a way to re-enable the button (correct me of I'm wrong.)

    Using the "remove spell" opcode every level for every druid spell would work... but it would not work with mod-added druid spells unless I tailored it by hand for every such mod out there. Using a penalty to the number of spells the ranger can cast each day wouldn't take into account WIS bonuses, items, or a modded MXSPLRN.2da (unless I set the penalty really high, I guess?), and it would also mess up dual-classing unless there was also a way to reliably undo it in the Cleric CLAB file.

    Ideas?

    2) Feedback: for further wizard balancing, it occurred to me that casting speed would be a nice differentiator. Pure mages focus most intently on the art of spell memorization, so they should cast faster - the magic is more firmly burned into their brains each morning. Sorcerers have to form globs of magical energy into spells, which should take longer; and wild mages have to struggle to contain the surging energies of wild magic; and specialists... well, specialists have advantages I want to balance, so there. :P

    Question is in the implementation. I was thinking Sorcerers should have a +2 penalty vs. pure mages, and everyone else a +1 penalty. But should mages be normal, and everyone else get penalties? Would that make it too hard for sorcerers to get spells off? Should Sorcerers be normal, and everyone else get bonuses? With some magic items in the game, that would make lots of wizards cast lots of spells insanely fast. And it would limit the benefit to pure mages since there is a floor (casting speed = 0) that many spells would hit.

    Maybe a -1 bonus for pure mages, and a +1 penalty for sorcerers? That would involve editing the fewest files... :). What do people think of this idea?

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
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