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[MOD] -Scales of Balance- a post-hac tweak mod

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Comments

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    I think it should be possible for vanilla fighters at least to specialize with the crossbow.

    I like making them available to all along with clubs, though. I believe IR will be implementing a 'pause' feature with the crossbow ( similar to the a scorcher spell I think--an interesting idea).

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Yeah, I actually don't like the 'pause' thing at all - one of the very few times I don't like Demi's work. It should be before you shoot, not after. What if I want to take a single shot, and then forget reloading, I'll drop the weapon and switch to melee? With that IR component, I stand there and get smashed in the face.

    Crossbows are actually very tricky to balance, as the IR crew knows well. It's easy enough to say "xbows shoot 1/2 as often as bows, so give them double the damage, and they will be both different (yay) and balanced (yay)."

    But, a 13th level archer with GM will have 3 apr with xbows, and 4 APR with bows. Double-damage xbows now do 50% more damage over time, making them outrageously superior. But balance that, and you nerf them at low levels.

    I think the answer is change the role, and thus the expectations, of the weapon. If bows are something an expert sinks time and proficiency points into, while xbows are something anyone can just pick up and shoot, it rationalizes the idea that at higher levels of expertise, bows will be superior.

    2 *s for trueclass fighters (only!) might be okay, because in this system 2 *s doesn't grant extra apr. And allow marksmen and sharpshooters to reach 3 *s. So from a base 1 apr with proficiency, at 15th level fighters and sharpshooters would reach 1.5 apr and marksmen would reach 2 apr. Whereas with bows, from a base 1.5 apr, all three of those kits could get 4 *s, giving 3 apr to fighters and marksmen, and 2.5 apr to sharpshooters.

    More food for thought: if short bows and long bows are being merged into the same proficiency, maybe it makes sense to differentiate their item characteristics more. So maybe something like this, showing starting apr to max apr and damage:
    large xbows = 1 to 2 apr, d8+3 damage
    small xbows = 1 to 2 apr, d8+1 damage
    comp. bow = 1.5 to 3 apr, d5+4 damage
    long bow = 1.5 to 3 apr, d5+2 damage
    short bow = 2 to 3.5 apr, d5 damage
    slings = 1 to 2.5 apr, 2d3 crushing damage
    darts = 3 to 5 apr, d3 damage

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    WithinAmnesia
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378

    I think it should be possible for vanilla fighters at least to specialize with the crossbow.

    Thinking more: while one of my very own goals has been to make the trueclass fighter the best with weapons, I actually think in this case they should be as limited. The reason: dual classing. I want to limit the ability to dual from fighter and cheese GM with any class - it devalues the other classes. That's why I eliminated the level 7 warrior APR bonus.

    If course you could go Marksman->Thief... but I don't think that would be much better than just rolling a sharpshooter. It might well be worse because you'd miss out on some Called Shots. At any rate it would be different, with reasons to go either way, which is much better than vanilla where the dual-class is almost always massively superior.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    Is it possible to do backstab with a ranged weapon in bgee? I know it is possible in vanilla with tobex. That would really be a great feature--properly balanced of course!--for the sharpshooter...Just a quick thought

    Illustair
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Agreed. Right now the Sharpshooter, Marksman, Archer and Slinger are kind of just clones of each other. It helped me get the mod out the door, but it's boring. I need to differentiate them more.

    The Slinger needs some special bullet-based called shots. (You can't really pin someone with a sling stone like you can with an arrow... but you can brain them! Maybe short-term blindness and stun effects.)

    And ranged backstab would be great for the Sharpshooter (probably limited to 2x). It would be great for the upcoming "make Coran a Sharpshooter" component.

    Finally, the Elven Archer should have something magical and Elvish. If only there were some kind Book, Complete with lots of overpowered Elvish class abilities... hmm...

    IllustairGrammarsalad
  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,138

    slings = 1 to 2.5 apr, 2d3 crushing damage

    This would make them too overpowered. They already get bonus from STR (note: I don't know if this is changed by this mod, but it's vanilla behavior so I assume so) and they get huge damage bonus from enchantment, too. I'd say 1.5 apr, since it's not that easy to load a Sling.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    I couldn't get it--ranged backstabbing--to work in my 20 minutes of research. Doesn't mean it isn't possible, of course. Even if not, you can simulate it with 286 (param 2 at 200% or whatever) for a short duration ability at least e.g. 'sniper shot'.

    I like the slinger idea.

    You could have different sorts of called shots that different classes specialize in. Maybe sharpshooters focus on damage (maybe with some poison) marksman already seem to focus on 'debuffs' perhaps slingers could be somewhere in between these two and archers could be 'magicy'.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    CrevsDaak said:

    slings = 1 to 2.5 apr, 2d3 crushing damage

    This would make them too overpowered. They already get bonus from STR (note: I don't know if this is changed by this mod, but it's vanilla behavior so I assume so)
    Right, I forgot about that. A whole other variable to screw things up. And also ridiculous. Was it is BG2 vanilla, or do you mean EE vanilla? Frankly NO thrown weapon should get STR bonus. If a thrown dagger embeds itself into you, it's not going to do more damage if it was thrown a little harder. In fact throwing harder would only make it less likely to actually hit you blade-first. Same goes for slings, axes, hammers, darts. I mean the devs could've read a little about the technique!

    Anyways 2.5 apr would be the max possible under any circumstances; my proposal is to give slings 0.5 base apr; which would grow to 1 with proficiency, and 1.5 with mastery, and 2 with grand mastery (which only Slingers could reach), and then another 0.5 when warriors hit 15th level. So the max would be 2.5 apr for Slingers, 2 for fighters, 1.5 for other warriors (none of whom use slings anyway) and 1 for most folks.

    Compare to vanilla, where fighters start at 1 apr, hit 2 apr at level 13 with only proficiency (!), and can get 3 apr with GM. So I propose to give them fewer apr, and take away the STR bonus, but in exchange switch the damage from missile to crushing. This gives the weapon one advantage - but, a tactically unique AND a realistic one - to make up for multiple disadvantages.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Oy. The rekitted NPCs component was basically finished and working. And then I find out that it breaks if the player has installed any other mod kits before this mod. (And this mod is designed to be installed as late as possible in the mod order!) So instead of Kivan the Stalker you get Kivan the priest of Sune. Ouch!

    So, that's a problem. I'm going to have to implement it in a completely different way - basically like the Kensai. It's going to be kludgy as heck, and a few more days of work to get right... but, I think it's unavoidable. And still better than the player saving and jumping out to ShadowKeeper every time they pick up a new NPC...

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    I saw that you recommend to also install IWDification for bards, should that one be installed before or after this mod?
    And what about the Arcane and Divine Packs, do they also work or should they be skipped?

    Thanks for a very interesting mod, currently waiting for this to reach 0.8 before starting a new play through :)

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    It probably doesn't matter. And yes, go ahead and use the added spells too - I sure do! But probably err on the side of installing IWDification near the middle of your order (after quests and NPCs, near spells and items) and SoB late in the order (with kits and tweaks).

    0.8 is coming soon. I might actually skip 0.7 depending on how things go. The NPC rekits are ~95% done (really just need to figure out Imoen - it's kind of hideously complex to replace her CRE files so that they correctly appear across the different games (BGEE, TuTu, BGT, vanilla ToB, BG2EE) and different appearances (Candlekeep, Chateau Irenicus, Spellhold, Pocket Plane). Being dual-classed really isn't helping.

    But the proficiency component is already about 50% done. Finishing it up should be much smoother (duplication of a bunch of kits and CREs that are already in there, just with different profs).

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    Reading your previous post about kits it looks like the issue was assigning the correct kit id for the characters?

  • RoarRoar Member Posts: 41
    edited September 2014
    the Necromancer's cantrip 'stiffen bones' is an AOE slow, not single target. Its overpowered as a cantrip, is this a bug?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Roar said:

    the Necromancer's cantrip 'stiffen bones' is an AOE slow, not single target. Its overpowered as a cantrip, is this a bug?

    Yes, definitely a bug. I'll fix it for the next release.

    Btw are you seeing it give targets combat penalties like the spell, or just a movement penalty? I think the latter is preferable - i.e. the main effect should be to help with kiting.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    Freche said:

    Reading your previous post about kits it looks like the issue was assigning the correct kit id for the characters?

    Yes, which from my investigations is basically impossible. So I'm doing it in a hacky scripted way, which doesn't rely on kit ids.

  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    edited September 2014
    I'm pretty sure you can save the ids to variables during the actual kit install then call those variables when assigning kits to characters.
    That way would however require kits and char alterations to be done during the same install (which most people do).

    Look at the old Wild Sorcerer mod which have a component to change Neera to a Wild Sorcerer.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Freche said:

    .That way would however require kits and char alterations to be done during the same install (which most people do).

    The reason I opted not to do that is, I also have some options to rekit NPCs with vanilla kits. Those would have no obvious place to go in the component order.

    But I'll take a look at that method and think about using it to streamline the process in a future version.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • FunkaveFunkave Member Posts: 31
    Hi subtledoctor, is a HLAs module going to be developed? Refinements and Rogues Rebalanced did great, but the fist is incompatible with EE while the latter does not cover the Shadowdancer and your kit variations obviously.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    At the moment all of my efforts are going to finishing the item and proficiency tweaks. After 1.0 I might take a look at HLAs, but I also have kind of a tidal wave of real-life work about to crash down on me in 2-3 weeks... so 1.0 might be the last update for a while.

    The vanilla HLAs really are junk - Refinements is so much better that even after doing all this work to make my mod work on EE, when it comes to playing I'll probably go back to GOG/BGT. Some modder needs to step up and make a great HLA mod for EE, or just update Refinements. But, I fear I am not that modder...

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Roar said:

    the Necromancer's cantrip 'stiffen bones' is an AOE slow, not single target. Its overpowered as a cantrip, is this a bug?

    Necromancy cantrip hotfix for v0.6: this should make it a single-target spell, instead of an area effect. Drop the attached files into your override folder and into /SoB/wizard/ This hotfix will not be needed for v0.7 or later.

    Rekitted NPCs are giving me a lot of trouble. They might be working on GOG - I generated the CREs there (thank you Level1NPCs!) but haven't playtested there yet. I tested first on EE, and they're all messed up. Looks like the strings/dlgs/scripts are different in EE, which I guess was to be expected. Best-case scenario, if they're working well on GOG, I'll need to generate new CRE files from within EE (and thus without the help of Level1NPCs). I.e a lot of grunt-work, for which I have very little time.

    I might put that off, or make it a GOG-only component for now, and get the proficiency component out first. In the meantime ShadowKeeper works perfectly well...

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Roar
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014

    I couldn't get it--ranged backstabbing--to work in my 20 minutes of research. Doesn't mean it isn't possible, of course. Even if not, you can simulate it with 286 (param 2 at 200% or whatever) for a short duration ability at least e.g. 'sniper shot'.

    Actually I recall reading about a mod that has ranged backstabs... possibly a beta of KR or IR. Frankly it would be really great for the Sharpshooter, better than an innate ability because using an ability would break stealth and it's a freakin' thief/sniper class!

    IYou could have different sorts of called shots that different classes specialize in. Maybe sharpshooters focus on damage (maybe with some poison) marksman already seem to focus on 'debuffs' perhaps slingers could be somewhere in between these two and archers could be 'magicy'.

    I think the basic stuff, shots that pin you and shots that trip you up momentarily, could be shared by all three. But at higher levels they could start to diverge, as the different professions develop different abilities. Marksmen could focus on extra damage, maybe auto-crits because they can pinpoint weak spots in the target. Slingers could do things like temporary blind and stun (a fist-sized sling bullet to the face can have that effect!) Sharpshooters could ideally do ranged backstabs. And Elven Archers could do more magicy stuff, maybe Faerie Fire on hit, something fun like that.

    Q: so halflings aren't normally allowed to be rangers, and aren't usually supposed to have aptitude for magic. Should I disable Slinger spellcasting, like with the Forest Runner? It would still be powerful, a ranger with shorty saves. And it would make Elven Archers even more unique, really the only magical ranged specialists. (Halflings could still be trueclass rangers with spellcasting though, I can't prevent that.)

    Btw if you enable demihuman dual-classing, a halfling Slinger dualled to cleric would be just sick.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,138
    Yeah, I meant EE vanilla. BG2 vanilla didn't had slings that gave STR damage bonus, but BG1 did.

  • RoarRoar Member Posts: 41
    edited September 2014
    thats a fast patch on the necromancer's cantrip @subtledoctor‌ ! I havent got a chance to play since but ill try out the hotfix and let u know if it works. :)

    edit: the hotfix works!

    Post edited by Roar on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    I think item revisions has, or will have ranged backstabbing...i seem to remember being able to do it myself. Iirc, it was like the critical hit protection toggle using one of the unused bits under the header flags--i think that is the right terminology. If so--and I certainly could be wrong--it is not there in bgee--like critical hit protection

  • RoarRoar Member Posts: 41
    bug with mage cantrip: befuddle cantrip has an aoe effect.

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,138

    I think item revisions has, or will have ranged backstabbing...i seem to remember being able to do it myself. Iirc, it was like the critical hit protection toggle using one of the unused bits under the header flags--i think that is the right terminology. If so--and I certainly could be wrong--it is not there in bgee--like critical hit protection

    That flag is added by TobEx, so, yeah it's not in the EE.

    Grammarsalad
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    Roar said:

    bug with mage cantrip: befuddle cantrip has an aoe effect.

    Okay, I'm attaching a hotfix for that one as well as the illusion cantrip, changed to use a single-target projectile. None of the other cantrips use AOE projectiles so this should be the last fix of this particular persuasion. Same deal: drop these into the "override" and "/SoB/wizard/" folders.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    So, I used the code provided by Crevsdaak below, and I'm getting this error on installation:
    ERROR: illegal 4-byte read from offset 1592 of 1336-byte file AJANTI.CRE
    ERROR: [AJANTI.CRE] -> [override/AJANTI.CRE] Patching Failed (COPY) (Failure("AJANTI.CRE: read out of bounds"))
    Stopping installation because of error.
    Anyone have an idea why? Should one of the READ_LONGs be a READ_SHORT?
    CrevsDaak said:

    COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~.*\.cre~ ~override~
    PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x2c8) BEGIN
    READ_LONG 0x2c4 "effect_offset"
    READ_LONG 0x2c8 "effect_count"
    FOR (loop = 0 ; loop < effect_count ; ++loop) BEGIN
    READ_LONG (effect_offset + 0x10 + (loop * 0x110)) "opcode"
    PATCH_IF opcode = 233 BEGIN
    READ_LONG (effect_offset + 0x20 + (loop * 0x110)) prof
    PATCH_IF prof = 99 BEGIN
    WRITE_LONG (effect_offset + 0x20 + (loop * 0x110)) 98
    END
    END
    END
    END
    BUT_ONLY
    Or: is that "0x10" a typo that should really be "0x20" like the others? EDIT: I tried changing the 0x10 to 0x20 and got this error:
    ERROR: illegal 4-byte read from offset 1336 of 1336-byte file AJANTI.CRE
    ERROR: [AJANTI.CRE] -> [override/AJANTI.CRE] Patching Failed (COPY) (Failure("AJANTI.CRE: read out of bounds"))
    Stopping installation because of error.
    Closer (the number of bytes matches now) but still erroring out. :(

    Should that last 'prof' be in quotes? Should the 'effect_offset' in the READ_LONG lines be a variable, as %effect_offset% ?

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    I'm not that experienced when it comes to creating mods but can't you use a similar loop for checking kits?
    read 2da entry now, loop a read 2da entry former that checks the names in the first column and once you know the row for the correct name you check the id column?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Camdawg himself answered the question over on the G3 forums:
    "The macro assumes creature effects of type 1. Creature files can also use the old effect 0 type, in which case the effects are only 0x30 in length (like the ones in spells and items) so that loop * 0x110 will go beyond EOF."
    He then pointed me to some crazy complicated macro he wrote, that is being added to Weidu v237, but he suggested I use it now as a macro. I think. It is way, way over my head. But I'll give it a try!

    All I have left to do for the proficiency component is this, and patching extra proficiencies to all joinable CREs. (I think I have a handle on that, emulating @berelinde‌'s b!tweaks' method.) So not long now 'til 0.7. The .tp2 file is just shy of 20,000 lines now...

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    CrevsDaak
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