Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Axis & Allies 1942 Online is now available in Early Access! Buy it on Steam. The FAQ is available.
New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

[MOD] -Scales of Balance- a post-hac tweak mod

1356784

Comments

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,066
    Ranger Spellcasting:
    -Disabling without breaking Dual-class:
    Use Opcode 177, Use Eff File, specifically targeting the Ranger Class. The eff file would then use opcode 145, Disable Spellcasting : Priest.
    Dual-classing will automatically remove the effect as a part of dual-classing, and when the Ranger class reactivates, you will no longer be a valid target for the effect.
    I would still manually remove the druid spells, at least the ones that you can.

    Reducing spells per day is a slippery slope, because it will overflow to the maximum per day if it goes below 0.

    Spellcasting Speed:
    -I think it would be better to edit the items that reduce spellcasting speed to give a larger benefit to trueclass mages, and/or a smaller benefit to non trueclass mages, than to alter the base spellcasting speed of the class/kits. It would definitely require more file editing though. I do however think it would be an appropriate inherit penalty for Bard kits that don't specialize in spellcasting.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    kjeron said:

    Ranger Spellcasting:
    -Disabling without breaking Dual-class:
    Use Opcode 177, Use Eff File, specifically targeting the Ranger Class. The eff file would then use opcode 145, Disable Spellcasting : Priest.

    Thank you! Problems are being solved left and right here, the kits are going to be done in no time. Kensai, Forest Runner, paladins & clerics probably by this weekend; then just the rogues to do after that.

    I have to think about the casting speed thing - I want mages to have an advantage from day one, not just when finding some rare SoA/ToB item. Good point about bards though - Skalds should definitely be penalized (maybe +2), maybe jesters also (+1). And Loremasters should have a bonus (-1).

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • SparhawkSparhawk Member Posts: 5
    Just tried the druid kits and they are a blast. Just one thing...i can't seem to be able to shift back into human form. i'm not entirely sure i didn't mess something up though.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited August 2014
    Really?? On all shapechanges, or any in particular? They're all supposed to add a PLYNF.spl to go back to human form. Maybe there's a resource missing somewhere. Out of curiosity can you tell me what game/platform you're using? (EE/non-EE, Win or Mac)

    EDIT: I bet something didn't get updated when I switched up all my file prefixes between v0.2 and 0.3. Such a pain - it's not just changing file names, you have to open every linked spell, item and effect individually in NI and make them point to the correct re-named files. I bet I missed something there.

    I HIGHLY recommend that anyone making a mod go to the Black Wyrm's Lair forums and reserve a prefix FIRST, so as to avoid having to change things in the middle of the process.

    I'll take a look and fix the druid shapechanges before the next update, which will hopefully be this weekend. It's a big one: 7 new ranger and cleric kits, plus more generalist mage advantages, plus a working kensai kit that focuses solely on one weapon.

    Then just the rogue kits to be done... then the proficiency tweaks, which should be easy... then the item tweaks, which could be a nightmare. And then a v1.0!

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Grammarsalad
  • SparhawkSparhawk Member Posts: 5
    For the druids it was all shapechanges as far as i could tell. i tried in lycanthrope regular druids and fighter druid. Also couldn't shapechange back into a human on jahera.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited August 2014
    Yeah I'm pretty sure I know exactly what the problem is. It will be fixed in a few days.

    I also got an idea from @SharGuidesMyHand‌ in another thread to adapt the Barbarian class/kit to a ranger kit. I'll try to throw something together in an upcoming release.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited August 2014
    [edit] Quite right Darkersun, will not plug up the board with private requests..

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    go to the g3 SR forum and ask Demi, I'm sure he will give you access.
    http://forums.gibberlings3.net/index.php?showforum=153

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488
    Rangers and set woodland traps.

    I've been thinking about this for a while. I think it's reasonable to give rangers a version of set traps that only works outside (and a skill progression). The mage hunter should have the regular version

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Interesting. I don't know how to give them skill progression, other that setting it higher each level in the CLAB file. And it seems like the Stalker should have them unrestricted (but no druid spellcasting), not the Mage Hunter.

    Either way, something to think about for v2. I need to get to v1 first! (Beta 0.5 with 2 more ranger kits and 6 new cleric kits should be here tomorrow!)

    [EDIT] As I think about it, this might actually be an interesting differentiating ability for the trueclass ranger.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,488

    Interesting. I don't know how to give them skill progression, other that setting it higher each level in the CLAB file. And it seems like the Stalker should have them unrestricted (but no druid spellcasting), not the Mage Hunter.

    Either way, something to think about for v2. I need to get to v1 first! (Beta 0.5 with 2 more ranger kits and 6 new cleric kits should be here tomorrow!)

    It might be worth experimenting with the thief 2da that is responsible for skill gains but I doubt it'll work. I tried giving monks skill points at first level (thiefskl.2da) but it didn't work--didn't try increasing points per level though...

    But you can "set" their first level at whatever (clasiskl.2a) and increase via ap_,,,spl in the clab (maybe at the same rate as stealth.

    But yeah, maybe full skill for the stalker instead

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    BIG UPDATE: Beamdog, great timing with the 1.3 patch! Now all of this kit goodness is perfectly playable!

    In beta 0.5 I have
    - fixed druid shapechanging (you can now shift back to natural form)
    - added some more benefits for generalist mages (Contingency as an innate at level 12 or so)
    - tweaked the installation of the Marksman/Archer/Slinger components
    - added the Kensai component, an innate ability that allows Kensai to focus on a single weapon
    - added two more ranger kits, in addition to the two that were in 0.4
    - tweaked paladin kits to have more flavor, and less cheese (no more double-dispel for Inquisitor)
    - tweaked vanilla cleric kits, and added six new ones
    - actually tested everything to make sure it works (!)
    - improved the file structure/packaging, you can now simply move the contents of the .zip archive into your resource folder and install with WeiDU

    In all, this mod now has 27 new kits - 15 hidden kits for the kensai component and 12 new playable ones. Enjoy. Up next are thieves and bards, and probably the proficiency overhaul at the same time.

    GrammarsaladIllustair
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Btw anyone know if the strings (e.g. for class descriptions) are the same in BG2EE as in BG1EE? I only have 1EE so I can't test 2EE.

    Anyone wanna test for me? I know 2EE is still on v1.2 so the kits probably don't work, but can someone try out, say, the Druid and Wizard and Paladin components start the process of creating a new PC, and let me know if the modded kit descriptions include mention of the new shapechanges, cantrips, and paladin kit names? Edit: or someone just export the BG2EE kitlist.2da from NI and shoot it to me in a PM?

    Are the string references for each game documented anywhere?

    In either v0.6 or 0.7, depending on my free time this weekend, I'll convert the mod to a single download that works on all of the games.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Another question, this time for WeiDU experts: can ACTION_IF blocks be nested? As in:

    BEGIN ~Add Slinger kit~

    ACTION_IF FILE_EXISTS_IN_GAME ~clsrcreq.2da~ THEN BEGIN
    ....ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~bgee bg2ee~ THEN BEGIN
    ........INCLUDE ~fl#add_kit_ee~
    ....END
    ....ADD_KIT ~slingran~ // Slinger as ranger kit
    [yadda yadda kit stuff]
    ....ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~bgee bg2ee~ THEN BEGIN
    ........LAF fl#add_kit_ee
    ............int_var
    ............str_var
    ....END
    END ELSE BEGIN
    ....ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~bgee bg2ee~ THEN BEGIN
    ........INCLUDE ~fl#add_kit_ee~
    ....END
    ....ADD_KIT ~slingfig~ // Slinger as fighter kit
    [yadda yadda kit stuff]
    ....ACTION_IF GAME_IS ~bgee bg2ee~ THEN BEGIN
    ........LAF fl#add_kit_ee
    ............int_var
    ............str_var
    ....END
    END


    The issue is,
    1) the Slinger will be a fighter kit or a ranger kit depending on the presence of CLSRCREQ.2da;
    2) the ADD_KIT function may or may not need different arguments depending on which game is being played; and
    3) (omitted from the above example) there will be two variants of the kit depending on whether the proficiency overhaul component is installed.

    That makes 8 different situations I have to account for, to add 1 kit. I could cut it in half with REQUIRE_COMPONENT to make two separate components depending on the proficiency overhaul... but each would still need 4 variants of the kit, which I think will need some ACTION_IF nesting.

    (Hope that's clear!)

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • Btw anyone know if the strings (e.g. for class descriptions) are the same in BG2EE as in BG1EE? I only have 1EE so I can't test 2EE.

    Anyone wanna test for me? I know 2EE is still on v1.2 so the kits probably don't work, but can someone try out, say, the Druid and Wizard and Paladin components start the process of creating a new PC, and let me know if the modded kit descriptions include mention of the new shapechanges, cantrips, and paladin kit names? Edit: or someone just export the BG2EE kitlist.2da from NI and shoot it to me in a PM?

    Are the string references for each game documented anywhere?

    In either v0.6 or 0.7, depending on my free time this weekend, I'll convert the mod to a single download that works on all of the games.

    BG2EE has not been updated to 1.3 yet, but as soon as it is I will happily test out whatever you need.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    Thanks! Actually for this purpose v1.2 is fine. The Druid, Wizard and Paladin components will install fine on 1.2 and the class descriptions can be checked; or alternatively, a copy of kitlist.2da will allow me to check the answer myself very quickly.

    (Or forget sending the file, anyone who has both BG1EE and BG2EE can compare the kitlist.2da for each game and let me know if the values in the "lower" "mixed" and "help" columns are all the same.)

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,066
    The values are different:

    2DA V1.0
    *
    ROWNAME LOWER MIXED HELP ABILITIES PROFICIENCY UNUSABLE CLASS KITIDS
    0 RESERVE * * * * * * * *
    1 BERSERKER 25179 25151 25201 CLABFI02 29 0x00000001 2 0x00004001
    2 WIZARD_SLAYER 25180 25152 25203 CLABFI03 30 0x00000002 2 0x00004002
    3 KENSAI 25181 25153 25204 CLABFI04 31 0x00000004 2 0x00004003
    4 CAVALIER 25182 25154 25206 CLABPA02 32 0x00000008 6 0x00004004
    5 INQUISITOR 25184 25155 25207 CLABPA03 33 0x00000010 6 0x00004005
    6 UNDEAD_HUNTER 25185 25156 25208 CLABPA04 34 0x00000020 6 0x00004006
    7 FERALAN 25186 25157 25209 CLABRN02 35 0x00008000 12 0x00004007
    8 STALKER 25187 25158 25211 CLABRN03 36 0x00010000 12 0x00004008
    9 BEASTMASTER 25188 25159 25212 CLABRN04 37 0x00020000 12 0x00004009
    10 ASSASIN 25189 25160 25213 CLABTH02 38 0x00040000 4 0x0000400A
    11 BOUNTY_HUNTER 25190 25161 25215 CLABTH03 39 0x00080000 4 0x0000400B
    12 SWASHBUCKLER 25191 25162 25216 CLABTH04 40 0x00100000 4 0x0000400C
    13 BLADE 25192 25164 25217 CLABBA02 41 0x00200080 5 0x0000400D
    14 JESTER 25193 25165 25219 CLABBA03 42 0x00400000 5 0x0000400E
    15 SKALD 25194 25166 25220 CLABBA04 43 0x00800000 5 0x0000400F
    16 TOTEMIC_DRUID 25198 25171 25224 CLABDR02 44 0x08000000 11 0x00004010
    17 SHAPESHIFTER 25199 25173 25225 CLABDR03 45 0x10000000 11 0x00004011
    18 BEAST_FRIEND 25200 25174 25227 CLABDR04 46 0x20000000 11 0x00004012
    19 TALOS 25195 25168 25221 CLABPR02 47 0x01000000 3 0x00004013
    20 HELM 25196 25169 25222 CLABPR03 48 0x02000000 3 0x00004014
    21 LATHANDER 25197 25170 25223 CLABPR04 49 0x04000000 3 0x00004015
    22 ABJURER 597 502 9564 CLABMA02 21 0x00003FC0 1 0x00000040
    23 CONJURER 2179 504 9565 CLABMA06 22 0x00000080 1 0x00004080
    24 DIVINER 2846 2012 9566 CLABMA05 23 0x00000100 1 0x00000100
    25 ENCHANTER 2861 2022 9567 CLABMA09 24 0x00000200 1 0x00000200
    26 ILLUSIONIST 2862 12785 9568 CLABMA08 25 0x00000400 1 0x00000400
    27 INVOKER 3015 12786 9569 CLABMA07 26 0x00000800 1 0x00000800
    28 NECROMANCER 12744 12787 9570 CLABMA03 27 0x00001000 1 0x00001000
    29 TRANSMUTER 12745 12788 9571 CLABMA04 28 0x00002000 1 0x00002000
    30 WILDMAGE 54893 54894 54892 CLABMA01 52 0x80000000 1 0x80000000
    31 BARBARIAN 45855 45859 45869 CLABFI05 51 0x40000000 2 0x40000000
    32 Blackguard 77512 77513 77514 CLABPA06 53 0x00000021 6 0x00004020
    33 SHADOWDANCER 74296 74297 74298 CLABTH05 54 0x00004000 4 0x00004021
    34 DWARVEN_DEFENDER 74299 74300 74301 CLABFI06 55 0x00004000 2 0x00004022
    35 DRAGON_DISCIPLE 74302 74303 74304 CLABSO01 56 0x00004000 19 0x00004023
    36 DARK_MOON 74305 74306 74307 CLABMO02 57 0x00004000 20 0x00004024
    37 SUN_SOUL 74308 74309 74310 CLABMO03 58 0x00004000 20 0x00004025
    38 LATHANDER_X 25197 25170 25223 CLABPR04 49 0x04000000 3 0x00004015
    39 GRIZZLY_BEAR 16119 16119 86479 CLABBEAR 59 0xFFFFFFFF 2
    40 OHTYR 93785 93785 93786 OHTYR 60 0x00004000 3

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Thanks! I have to check those against the original BG2 - I read somewhere that Beamdog/Overhaul were not going to change any of the base game strings in the EE... but we'll see.

    If necessary I guess I'll throw down $20 and buy the game... which will mean paying double 'cause I really only want to buy the EEs for my iPad... sigh... (1st-world problems!)

    In the meantime, don't use this mod with BG2EE!! Much of it won't work well until the 1.3 patch anyway. :P I'll sort out the string refs in the next beta release.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    I wonder what people think of this prospective component:
    PROFICIENCY GROUPING:
    - Two-handed swords and bastard swords are combined into a "heavy swords" proficiency.
    - Long swords and scimitars are combined into a "light swords" proficiency.
    - Short swords and daggers are combined into a "short blades" proficiency.
    - Spears and halberds are combined into a "polearms" proficiency.
    - Maces, morning stars and clubs are combined into a "club/mace" proficiency.
    - Long bows and short bows are combined into a "bows" proficiency.

    I think there needs to be some consolidation... but I think the BG1 system is too broad. IWD is close but still not perfect. In this discussion, I want to find perfect.

    I considered just giving everyone more proficiencies (warriors every 2 levels, rogues every 3, clerics every 4) but then fighter could reach GM by level 6, which is crazy - in PnP you can't reach it til level 12.

    Grouping some weapons lets players do more with the proficiencies they have. And in some cases it comes down to immersion - GM in longbows and you trip over a shortbow?? And in some cases it's about the in-game resources - the are more better long swords than there are good spears and halberds combined. So here are my thoughts.

    1) 2-hand swords & bastard sword represent big, heavy, slow, cleaving swords. Mastery in this weapon class gives a fighter the option of using the biggest swords 2-handed, or bastard swords/broad swords 1-handed. The question: too many good items in this class?

    2) Long swords and scimitars represent thin, light, quick, slashing swords. I combined them because a) there aren't a ton of great scimitars, and b) the way they are used seems very close. Katanas fit these characteristics, but katanas are exotic and abnormally powerful, so a separate proficiency for them is reasonable. (And Wakizashi should be included in that proficiency, since training will involve both.)

    3) Short swords and daggers are small, quick, concealable, stabbing weapons. There are lots of good mid-range examples, but not many really powerful ones. The concern is, between this and long sword/scimitar consolidation, will thieves not have enough options for differentiation? I considered leaving long swords and daggers alone and consolidating scimitars with short swords, which would be balanced as far as in-game item distribution... I just can't see the real-world rationalization for it.

    4) Spears + halberds is a lock. BG presents spears as 'long spears' or pikes. Combining them gives a bit more flexibility than vanilla, which is "I'm setting up my character from birth to use this one halberd that I know he'll get 75% into the game."

    5) Mace + morning star + club: I just don't see any way to rationalize separating these. I can't see how ability with one doesn't translate into ability with the others.

    6) Bows: ditto.

    Discuss!

    Superpat
  • SuperpatSuperpat Member Posts: 7
    Hey I realy like what you're doing with this! Though I might wait till your 0.7 version till I play with it, since I really want to see the npcs running around with those kits.

    Your proficiency rework seems sensible, allows us to spend proficiencies without shooting ourselves in the feet.

    Are you planning on reworking the sorcerer class/kits? I enjoy playing as a dragon disciple, but I've read that their bonuses are pretty weak in the endgame compared to their maluses. Also, I'd love to see an eldritch knight kit.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Thank you! I'm not touching anything sorcerer-related, because 1) I don't really ever use the class, so I don't care enough; and 2) it would be a ton of work and I'm really trying hard to get to a 1.0 with just the components on the front page; and 3) other people are doing such things better than I probably could. Check out the "Tome & Blood" thread here in the General Modding forum - put that mod together with this one and boom, you get all the benefits of both! They should not conflict at all.

    0.6 with thief & bard kits and stat tweaks should be up by tomorrow. (It's already working on BGEE... I'm now merging the two downloads into a single mod that will work for every version of the game.) Then the proficiency overhaul and NPC kits should get done in the next week or two.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Grammarsalad
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    I really like the idea. I dont find it to powerful. This is also a good way to handle unrepresented weapons.

    For me I would just change the names (my personal peference)

    1) Call all bladed weapons blades:
    Heavy Blades (2hand + Bastards)
    Long Blades (Katana, Long Sword, Scimitar)
    Short Blades (Wakazashi, Short Sword, Dagger, Ninjato)

    Maybe make an Eastern/Oriental Blades section.

    or make :
    Curved Blades (Katana, Wakazashi, Scimitar)
    Long Blades (2handed, Bastards, Long Sowrds)
    Short Blades (Short Sword, Dagger, Ninjato)

    2) Mace + morning star + club = Blunt Weapons

    3) Light Ranged Weapons ? (Slings + Darts)

    The rest sounds fine to me.

    Another option would be to have:

    Heavy Weapons
    Medium Weapons
    Light Weapons
    Exotic Weapons

    But I'm not sure how to balance them.



  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    In my last install I had katanas and scimitars together as "curved blades" and bastard swords and long swords together just as long swords (because they look and function alike - it didn't seem reasonable that you could be GM with Foebane and not know how to swing Daystar).

    But I think katanas should stay separate. First, they are a weapon from Kara-Tur and learning how to use it well should be rare and difficult. Second, the stats reward you for that difficulty. Plus one of the most powerful weapons, Cheesestial Fury, is a katana. (Likewise, I don't feel bad lumping maces & morning stars & clubs together while keeping flails separate - because there's the Flail of Cheeses.)

    Maybe:
    2H swords + bastard swords
    long swords + scimitars
    katanas + wakizashi
    short swords + ninja-to
    daggers + darts
    mace + morning star + club
    spear + halberd


    And let me throw this out: how about
    axes + hammers

    Hear me out: they are both chopping weapons that are similarly directional (unlike maces and clubs) and have similar swinging and throwing characteristics. (Throwing a hammer doesn't work the way Thor does it; it's actually a lot like throwing an axe.) Like morning stars and clubs, there are one or two very powerful examples of each, but not a ton of mid-range options.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    Another big update!

    Okay, it might not seem as big as the last one, for you, but it is every bit as big for me. All components from the EE and non-EE versions of the mod have been merged via extraordinarily clever weidu-fu so that a single download will work with every version of the game: BG2, BGT, TuTu, IWD-in-BG2, BGEE, and BG2EE.

    Okay, it's not really that clever. Experienced modders will likely laugh at the inefficiency of my code. BUT it works, and that's all that matters! :P (I've tested on BGEE on OS X and BG2 GOG on Windows... if anyone wants to check on other games/platforms please report any weirdness here. And btw in BG2EE all kit components except the Adventurer and the Jongleur will be skipped... as soon as Beamdog drops the 1.3 patch I'll enable all of the kits.)

    There are some player-facing goodies:
    - tweaked, more sensible tables for stat bonuses, hit points, experience points, saving throws, and spellcasting
    - bonus APR from specialization for vanilla swashbucklers
    - kensai get free weapons upon selecting their focus
    - two new thief kits
    - two new bard kits

    I'll whip the proficiency overhaul into shape as soon as I figure out weapon grouping (help me decide!) and I'll make up some drop-in NPCs with the new kits now that all the kits are finished. So in the next version, 11 of 12 components will be finished!

    Cheers

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    Grammarsalad
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414

    I wonder what people think of this prospective component:
    PROFICIENCY GROUPING:

    - Two-handed swords and bastard swords are combined into a "heavy swords" proficiency.
    - Long swords and scimitars are combined into a "light swords" proficiency.
    - Short swords and daggers are combined into a "short blades" proficiency.
    - Spears and halberds are combined into a "polearms" proficiency.
    - Maces, morning stars and clubs are combined into a "club/mace" proficiency.
    - Long bows and short bows are combined into a "bows" proficiency.

    I think there needs to be some consolidation... but I think the BG1 system is too broad. IWD is close but still not perfect. In this discussion, I want to find perfect.

    I considered just giving everyone more proficiencies (warriors every 2 levels, rogues every 3, clerics every 4) but then fighter could reach GM by level 6, which is crazy - in PnP you can't reach it til level 12.

    Grouping some weapons lets players do more with the proficiencies they have. And in some cases it comes down to immersion - GM in longbows and you trip over a shortbow?? And in some cases it's about the in-game resources - the are more better long swords than there are good spears and halberds combined. So here are my thoughts.

    1) 2-hand swords & bastard sword represent big, heavy, slow, cleaving swords. Mastery in this weapon class gives a fighter the option of using the biggest swords 2-handed, or bastard swords/broad swords 1-handed. The question: too many good items in this class?

    2) Long swords and scimitars represent thin, light, quick, slashing swords. I combined them because a) there aren't a ton of great scimitars, and b) the way they are used seems very close. Katanas fit these characteristics, but katanas are exotic and abnormally powerful, so a separate proficiency for them is reasonable. (And Wakizashi should be included in that proficiency, since training will involve both.)

    3) Short swords and daggers are small, quick, concealable, stabbing weapons. There are lots of good mid-range examples, but not many really powerful ones. The concern is, between this and long sword/scimitar consolidation, will thieves not have enough options for differentiation? I considered leaving long swords and daggers alone and consolidating scimitars with short swords, which would be balanced as far as in-game item distribution... I just can't see the real-world rationalization for it.

    4) Spears + halberds is a lock. BG presents spears as 'long spears' or pikes. Combining them gives a bit more flexibility than vanilla, which is "I'm setting up my character from birth to use this one halberd that I know he'll get 75% into the game."

    5) Mace + morning star + club: I just don't see any way to rationalize separating these. I can't see how ability with one doesn't translate into ability with the others.

    6) Bows: ditto.

    Discuss!

    Interesting! I don't envy the scripting job, however. Nearly every item needs to be edited as well as nearly every CRE file.

    1) No. Especially compared to long swords, there aren't too many two-handers + bastard swords.

    2) Scimitar/Wakizashi/Katana would be a good group. It separates the scimitars from long swords and adds some "bulk" to the exotic weapon group (especially with the best scimitars in the game now being much harder to get).

    3) Another side benefit of Scimitar/Wakizashi/Katana - it's appealing to thieves since there are two weapons in the group they can use. Otherwise, I can't see a thief spending a proficiency for wakizashis (which are pretty rare).

    4) Cool.

    5) Yes. Also - every class can get proficiency with and use clubs (not necessarily use maces/morningstars). To quote the club item description: "Anyone can find a good stout piece of wood and swing it"

    6) Cool.

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 951
    Here's how I would do it (very similar to your strategy actually). (This is assuming that you can completely overhaul proficiency groupings to fit your desires.)

    If you don't want any "exotic" categories:
    - Basic: staffs, clubs, dagger
    - Heavy Blades: two-handed swords, bastard swords, katanas
    - Long Blades: longswords, scimitars
    - Short Blades: shortswords, ninja-to, wakazashi
    - Axes: axes
    - Polearms: spears, halberds
    - Maces: hammers, maces
    - Flails: flails, morningstars
    - Bows: longbows, shortbows, crossbows
    - Light Throwing: throwing daggers, dart, sling
    - Heavy Throwing: throwing axes, throwing hammers

    IMO, axes has enough variety and good items among all tiers that it might warrant their own category. I think separating thrown (daggers/axes/hammers) from their melee counterparts should also occur, as the skill required to throw knives is definitely different than the skill required to stab with a knife.

    Here is how I would suggest for basic class setups.
    - Mage: Basic, Light Thrown
    - Rogue: Basic, Light Thrown, Short Blades, Long Blades, Bows
    - Priest: Basic, Light Thrown, Maces, Flails
    - Druid: Basic, Light Thrown, Polearms, Long Blades (staffs, clubs, scimitars, spears, darts, slings only).
    - Warriors: Any

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014

    5) Yes. Also - every class can get proficiency with and use clubs (not necessarily use maces/morningstars). To quote the club item description: "Anyone can find a good stout piece of wood and swing it"

    Well I wouldn't be changing the usability rules (that will be done, if at all, in component 12). But I could give every class the ability to advance proficiency in clubs/maces/morning stars, and then they could only use whichever ones their class is allowed to use. Of course if you install Ashes of Embers or some mod that liberalizes item use, then proficiencies would follow suit. Which may or may not be a good thing.

    An alternative is to treat clubs as a special class: grant everyone proficiency and usability, but don't let anyone (even fighters) specialize further. Make them a pure "pick up a chair leg and swing it at someone" weapon.

    2) Scimitar/Wakizashi/Katana would be a good group. It separates the scimitars from long swords and adds some "bulk" to the exotic weapon group (especially with the best scimitars in the game now being much harder to get).

    Sigh. Maybe I should end my crusade against katanas and do this. This makes a ton of sense.

    So I'm leaning toward this for the consolidations:
    2-hand sword + bastard sword
    scimitar + katana
    mace + morning star
    spear + halberd
    dagger + dart
    long bow + short bow

    Interesting! I don't envy the scripting job, however. Nearly every item needs to be edited as well as nearly every CRE file.

    Hopefully it's not too much work! With the 12 weapons above consolidated, I'd only have to change 6 of them. COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB halberds, WRITE_BYTE spear proficiency. Then COPY_EXISTING all .CREs, READ_BYTE for everyone with halberd proficiency, WRITE_BYTE to give spear proficiency in addition. Rinse & repeat five times. Hopefully it's as simple as it sounds. I have some research to do!

    A tougher nut to crack might be avoiding confusion for players. I'm not at all sure we can change the names of the options in the proficiency choice screen. If halberds are lumped in with spears, then users would have a choice to put stars in spears but they would still see the halberd proficiency, unavailable. They might conclude that they're not proficient in halberds, when they really are!

  • CrevsDaakCrevsDaak Member Posts: 7,138

    Hopefully it's not too much work! With the 12 weapons above consolidated, I'd only have to change 6 of them. COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB halberds, WRITE_BYTE spear proficiency. Then COPY_EXISTING all .CREs, READ_BYTE for everyone with halberd proficiency, WRITE_BYTE to give spear proficiency in addition. Six times. Hopefully it's as simple as it sounds. I have some research to do!

    COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~.*\.itm~ ~override~
    PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) BEGIN
    READ_BYTE 0x31 prof
    PATCH_IF prof = 99 BEGIN
    WRITE_BYTE 0x31 98
    END
    END
    BUT_ONLY

    COPY_EXISTING_REGEXP GLOB ~.*\.cre~ ~override~
    PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x2c8) BEGIN
    READ_LONG 0x2c4 "effect_offset"
    READ_LONG 0x2c8 "effect_count"
    FOR (loop = 0 ; loop < effect_count ; ++loop) BEGIN
    READ_LONG (effect_offset + 0x10 + (loop * 0x110)) "opcode"
    PATCH_IF opcode = 233 BEGIN
    READ_LONG (effect_offset + 0x20 + (loop * 0x110)) prof
    PATCH_IF prof = 99 BEGIN
    WRITE_LONG (effect_offset + 0x20 + (loop * 0x110)) 98
    END
    END
    END
    END
    BUT_ONLY

    Grammarsalad
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378
    edited September 2014
    o_0

    For realz!? @Crevsdaak just saved me learning how to do that from scratch! You're my new favorite person. This component might get done sooner than I thought!

    But, quick question (I didn't learn it the hard way, so I can't read what that does at a glance): the second bit, for the CREs, does it *add* proficiency in spears? Or *replace* the halberd proficiency with spear proficiency? The former would be preferable... it doesn't matter for spears as much as for morning stars.

    Morning stars > maces is a bit trickier because it's not just one group being absorbed by another; rather, it's a subgroup of one proficiency becoming a subgroup of another. I'd like flails to remain as they are, which means using a different technique than this.

    (For the other five consolidations though, this is perfect - it's already in my new .tp2, along with the weapprof.2da edits and mod kit alternatives.)

    EDIT: I just noticed (remembered? I've been using it for 10 years...) that Item Revisions moves morning stars to the mace proficiency. Since I wholeheartedly encourage everyone using this mod to use IR as well, I'm not gonna duplicate their component. Bonus: less work for me! And, faster releases!

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    CrevsDaakGrammarsalad
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,378

    treat clubs as a special class: grant everyone proficiency and usability, but don't let anyone (even fighters) specialize further. Make them a pure "pick up a chair leg and swing it at someone" weapon.

    More food for thought: if clubs are a universally usable, dead simple melee weapon, should crossbows be the same for missile weapons? Right now they are just a different kind of bow, which is boring. The same classes and kits are good with them, their are no usability distinctions... the biggest difference is just in the available magical ammunition.

    I figure like clubs, crossbows could be universally usable (even by clerics) and everyone would start out basically proficient. But no one can advance to higher specialization. (Maybe allow the Marksman and Sharpshooter, only, to specialize, to further differentiate those kits.)

    They would fire very slowly but do massive damage - like, 2d5 or even 2d6. A big thick crossbow bolt should do seriously more damage than an arrow. But, fire much less frequently. Since APR is mostly based on proficiency with this component, we can control and limit crossbows' APR by limiting proficiency.

Sign In or Register to comment.