How the hell does one *thief*? (sneak OR search, really?!)

Ygramul

This has annoyed since the release of the original game:

If you are sneaking you cannot search for traps. If you are searching you stop sneaking. (Though there is a few seconds of delay when you can do both, if you don't mind repeatedly switching.)

How do *you* thief?
I just don't know how to.

elminster

Outside of maybe the Nashkel Mines and Ulcaster's ruins you probably aren't going to find many traps early on. I normally just cast Invisibility on my thief and then have them search for traps.

the_spyder

Invisibility is definitely one way. Once Jaheira gets 2nd level spells, she can cast detect traps. If she follows just a bit behind your thief, she will detect them before the thief gets to them. Then just avoid them until it is safe to deal with them.

element

yeh I usually find traps with divine casters I only usually use the thief to disarm them once found. An added benefit of this is that if u get hit by one the character taking damage is usually abet more tanky.

Pibaro

I use potions of invisibility. I'm addicted to potions of invisibility!

Ygramul

Yeah, fine, I get that, that's what I do, too: cast Invisibility on thief; have thief search for traps.
But that essentially means that the skills Hide in shadow/Move Silently are useless!

Is there any way for a thief to actually sneak a dungeon WHILE checking for traps?
Even with a mod?

(ToEE let you do this, but lowered your movement speed, which is fine compromise.)

Lemernis

I just use pause a lot and do the following:

Stealth and approach; detect and remove traps for the several seconds before leaving stealth; retreat; re-stealth and re-approach; rinse and repeat.

the_spyder

Pibaro said:

I use potions of invisibility. I'm addicted to potions of invisibility!

We know and that is why we are setting up an intervention for you.

JLee

Ygramul said:

Yeah, fine, I get that, that's what I do, too: cast Invisibility on thief; have thief search for traps.
But that essentially means that the skills Hide in shadow/Move Silently are useless!

Is there any way for a thief to actually sneak a dungeon WHILE checking for traps?
Even with a mod?

(ToEE let you do this, but lowered your movement speed, which is fine compromise.)

I know it is not quite what you are asking for, but one of my favorite things about the Cleric/Thief multi is the sanctuary + find traps combination. Quite handy!

I suppose you could eekeeper in a couple of sanctuary innate abilities to your thief, if you didn't consider that too cheesy.

Freche

In BG1 I know roughly where there are traps.

For BG2 I normally use "Power Word: Reload" where I can't remember that there is a trap and things go horribly wrong. Luckily there ain't too many floor traps since trapfinding in BG is really poorly implemented.

Dee

Sometimes I wish Find Traps were a passive ability instead of one that had to be turned on or off.

From what I gather, though, the reason you can't use Stealth and Find Traps at the same time is an engine limitation from the original code. I can definitely empathize with wanting it to behave differently, though.

the_spyder

In PnP, finding traps wasn't a passive ability. You actually had to state that you were doing it. Except elves who had an innate ability that basically had it switched always on.

In any event, Yeah, I think that conceptually you should be able to do both, even if you had to take a hit of movement rate. shame it can't be done.

jackjack

Elves are always so exceptional and special.

Anduin

Thieves rock and rule.

Invisibility is an easy spell to get, use potions beforehand. In BG1 I would create a backstabber and trap finder. Put points in trap finding, up to 100, cast invisibility, then scout and disarm a dungeon of traps then sidle up behind the big boss, and backstab! My wizard would oft follow and cast sleep on mobs.

Or... Note you can't do both at the start...

Create a lockpicker / pickpocketer. Note open locks becomes redundant with the spell knock.

Create a trapper and true sight specialist. My personal favourite is to put a trap outside a door, go into stealth, get another character to open it, then fire missile weaponry into the room, (the monster will not be able to get past your stealthed character) then step back to let the luckless monster left to stumble into the trap.

As a single class thief, or kitted, you have plenty of points to spend so by BG2 you can do all roles comfortably.

However a dualled or multiclass thief is truly terrifying. A kensai / thief, a character with the ability to land a maximum damage backstab... Plus the use any item ability makes the kensai restrictions mute... This is just one option of many powerful powergamer options available...

Lastly... Gnome thieves... YOU DO NOT KNOW THE POWER OF THE GNOME SIDE! ! !

Ygramul

Look, I see that thieves can be awesome, but all these suggestions (essentially using Invisibility) imply that Move Silently/Hide in Shadows are useless skill sinks.

Freche

Depends on how you play your thief, you have to use quite a lot of slots for invis if you do a lot of scouting and have no points in stealth.

A moderate level of stealth is always useful imo.

jackjack

I use it for backstabbing more than hiding. Definitely not useless.

Belanos

Dee said:

Sometimes I wish Find Traps were a passive ability instead of one that had to be turned on or off.

That's entirely possible with the right scripting. I have my Thieves automatically turn on Find Traps when they're not doing anything else. It stays on while they move as well. They just can't engage in anything else without it turning off, but the ability will turn back on as soon as they're done. Just add these line into the script you use:

IF
ActionListEmpty()
CombatCounter(0)
OR(2)
Class(Myself,THIEF_ALL)
Class(Myself,MONK)
!ModalState(DETECTTRAPS)
THEN
RESPONSE #100
FindTraps()
END

Feytor

the_spyder said:

Pibaro said:

I use potions of invisibility. I'm addicted to potions of invisibility!

We know and that is why we are setting up an intervention for you.

Yo Spyder, I was on the adress you gave me but I didnt see him.......

The_Potty_1

In the original BG2 I used the vanilla thief scout script on all thieves & rangers. This makes them attempt to hide in shadows every round. If your thief succeeds, you can then click detect traps, and they will search for traps while still hidden for the rest of the round. Combine with the 'pause on enemy sighted' so you can retreat them before they become visible.

BG:EE cleaned up the scripts a bit, so now the thief0 script is pretty good and can do the above.

If you install the Valen mod, you will see that she is scripted to first hide and then search automatically. Unfortunately she's also a psycho vampire who will often try to frontstab without warning. However, with obsessive levels of control she can be utterly terrifying. I assume one or another mod pack includes just the Valen script, or perhaps something even better.

JuliusBorisov

So, this is how I use a thief:

1. Most of my charnames are thieves or at least partly thieves.

2. I don't put more than 75 points into Open Locks and Disarm Traps. In the second game there're enhancing rings for these skills and before you find them if you need more points in the particular skill, you can always use a potion.

3. I try to put points into Set Traps and use this skill to its fullest. 80 is enough because in BG2 there's an enhancing ring.

4. Another skill I develop is Detect Illusions. 100 points into it and you don't need True Sight. Period.

5. For stealthing skills there're many enhancing things in both games, starting with the Zhurlong boots. So I've found out even default numbers in HiS and MS are enough for a game. If you fail to hide, just try once more till you succeed.

6. Invisibility spells and potions can help greatly in battles for multiple backstage. It's good to use them for scouting as well. But when I need to chunk one separate enemy I use HiS.

7. Chunking a mage from the shadows is priceless.

Advice for the OP: make a multi class fighter/thief, use HiS for dealing with separate enemies - you'll like it and you'll understand how to use a thief.

Ygramul

bengoshi said:

So, this is how I use a thief:

1. Most of my charnames are thieves or at least partly thieves.

....

Advice for the OP: make a multi class fighter/thief, use HiS for dealing with separate enemies - you'll like it and you'll understand how to use a thief.

This is really helpful. Thank you.


In my current no-reload run (BGEE w SCS) Coran joined my party. Perhaps I'll begin using him as the sneaky backstabber/trapper now.


***CONFESSION:
In all my BG playthroughs of the last decade and a half, I have not once backstabbed anyone!
(Perhaps, I need an intervention on this.)

Quartz

It's another one of those really blatantly archaic details of the original game that Beamdog couldn't manage to address in the "Enhanced Edition" in the year 2012.

Calmar

I always had the impression that even when a thief 'unsneaks' to detect traps, she is still somehow concealed since the character model seems to remain translucent.

the_spyder

Calmar said:

I always had the impression that even when a thief 'unsneaks' to detect traps, she is still somehow concealed since the character model seems to remain translucent.

It takes a few seconds for the thief character to "Uncloak" as it were. In that you get a few seconds of being able to do both at the same time. The problem with using that as a strategy is you are constantly switching back and forth (which can be a pain) and if you don't have a high hide skill (or have negative modifiers due to adverse environmental conditions - did I just channel Ash there?), you aren't guaranteed to be able to flip back and forth every time.

smeagolheart

Ygramul said:

Yeah, fine, I get that, that's what I do, too: cast Invisibility on thief; have thief search for traps.
But that essentially means that the skills Hide in shadow/Move Silently are useless!

backstabbing?

deltago

the_spyder said:

Calmar said:

I always had the impression that even when a thief 'unsneaks' to detect traps, she is still somehow concealed since the character model seems to remain translucent.

It takes a few seconds for the thief character to "Uncloak" as it were. In that you get a few seconds of being able to do both at the same time. The problem with using that as a strategy is you are constantly switching back and forth (which can be a pain) and if you don't have a high hide skill (or have negative modifiers due to adverse environmental conditions - did I just channel Ash there?), you aren't guaranteed to be able to flip back and forth every time.

This is how I do it. 6 seconds is what you have to find the trap and then rehide. You can rehide right after the trap is revealed (I think you have 2-3 seconds here) or scamper away to rehide. Once you know where the trap is, and you are rehidden, you can go up and disarm it while stealthed and repeat the process.

It takes patience sometimes, but if you are gonna metagame the traps might as well add a little bit more challenge to them.