Was the original BG this ridiculous? (ambush by ~40 kobolds)
Ygramul
Member Posts: 1,060
So, if you rest in Firewine area with a party of lvl 6-7 you can get ambushed by a sea of kobolds (almost 40 of them).
This... breaks immersion. I mean a few are fine, but that many?!
I don't remember this kind of "level scaling" in the original. Perhaps it should be toned down...
(Well, to be honest, one Fireball to the face still clears ALL of them [you may want to keep one front liner in place to delay the tide]. But it's still annoying.)
This... breaks immersion. I mean a few are fine, but that many?!
I don't remember this kind of "level scaling" in the original. Perhaps it should be toned down...
(Well, to be honest, one Fireball to the face still clears ALL of them [you may want to keep one front liner in place to delay the tide]. But it's still annoying.)
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It really breaks the immersion when in a closed room and behind your back to a wall 20+ Guards show up! (Those guys are dangerous even in 1-on-1 in SCS; cannot be Sleeped; won't die to a single Fireball!)
MOD/PATCH IDEA:
Have reinforcement summon at a level entrance and walk toward the party. None of this "summon them behind you" crap.
On a serious note: It could be hard for a mid-low lvl party to face such a group of kobolds, unless you've a AOE spell, but in my opinion is completely plausible to have an old ruin to be the lair of a mid-big kobolds clan. In Forgotten Realms you can find kobolds lairs with THOUSANDS of them, so if you'll have some hundreds in Firewine ruins seems legit to me, not immersion breaking (because with a lvl 5/6 party you'll really have not any trouble against them) and last but not least, greatly satisfying: using an AOE spell on dozens and dozens of them and seeing all of them to fall on the ground with a low lvl party gives a feeling of power, almost like exploding hundreds of skeletons and zombies all toghether in ToB with the Turn Undead skill. ;P
On a non-serious note:
Seriously, simply fireball them. Problem solved. Or a couple of sleep spells, or a single well placed web or a round of haste potions. Any of those should make very short work of even 40 Kobolds at that level.
Besides, if you can encounter Wyvern or basilisks as a random encounter at 4th level, how is this any worse?
Sleeping in a kobold infested dungeon.
Something no sane being would do... Considering a safe village is a staircase away. But lets not break the immersion...
However, if some barnpot of a character decides to take a snooze... Lets just think what would happen, and I think this is why the game mechanics are spot on. One kobold finds you sleeping. He gathers all his mates. The stronger you are the more mates the Kobolds will think they need. They then wake you up. Surprise!
So no. 40 Kobolds is darn realistic.
Contrast the place wih Xvart village, or the Cloakwoods Mine.
At the end of the day with any game like this, you have to take it with a grain of salt that there aren't any porta-potties or bathroom facilities. That you don't see every single sleeping bed or every lair proper. It is pretty obvious that kobolds live in that area because they guard the place pretty well. And they are pretty good at hiding their lairs, so just take it as read that there is a vast network of caves that you simply don't find. I think that is more reasonable than "there are dozens of guards patrolling the area, but they don't LIVE near there. They are just civic minded monsters trying to prevent miscreant adventurers from disturbing the wizard living there."
Imagine something like "drums in the deep":
A force of Kobolds is gathering and start zooming onto you. You kill the first few. But then come a dozen. Then more. You are slowly loosing spells and potions. No end in sight. Then come a chieftain and shaman with e dozen more kobolds. You wade through to the chief and after he is killed. Kobolds run away. You get your much deserved rest. In fact, they don't bother you for a few days again.
Compare this with:
"I beam 40 kobolds behind you if you roll 0-50 on a d100; none if you roll more."
Nothing really to be done about it, mind you. A major reason it bothers me is that the area is otherwise really cool. Great visuals, wasted imho on what amounts to the most pointlessly irritating dungeon since the Tomb of Horrors. Did Acererak build Firewine by any chance??
And then there is the unlimited waves of bounty hunters that attack if your reputation runs low. They certainly don't live in Nashkal or Beregost nor even in Baldur's Gate proper.
Who's BS do we smell?
My comment about kobolds being "Like rats" was not to indicate size but to indicate prevalence. They come up out of the cracks.
But here's a compromise for you. "If" the kobolds in the Nashkal mines live there (and we don't see bunks or other evidence of habitation) then the kobolds who are in Firewine "Live" in and around the ruins. Or maybe they just happen to have a BUNCH of their relatives over for a meal?
Just because the game fails to completely capture every little nuance and crevasse is hardly grounds for criticism. Sorry for my lack of sympathy, but I grew up on games that would give no graphic presentation at all, just a brief description IF the room was interesting. And monsters could randomly appear any time, any where. I find the comparatively rational behavior of BG to be the opposite of "immersion breaking". Its breathing life into a fantasy environment.
However, despite the irrelevance, I'll address you're concern. As monsters cant just go to an inn, when they are away from their homebase (note, the hobgoblins we find everywhere are likely from the Iron Throne's bandit army... so we did, in fact, see their actual residence. Perhaps some are from the big camp near Nashkel) they camp out. Anyone trying to have any surprise whstsoever will make sure any signs of their camp will be hard to find. Besides, its not like kobolds, hobgoblins, gnolls and xvarts require a tent to camp out for awhile. A bedroll or blanket would cut it for them, and obviously they hide the evidence of their fires. *shrugs* I know I wouldnt give my position away by leaving an old firepit out in the open if I was hiding.
Tasloi are actually really easy; they sleep in trees. Serious, the buggers can climb. They are as savage as gibberlings nearly.
Too many Wyverns?? Thats a family clearly, and they have a heap of food stored up. I am not buying that unless Wyverns are exclusively solitary AND abandon their eggs. They are Dragons remember, and not unintelligent.
Uh, really? Why would the Bounty Hunters live in Nashkel?? They spend most of their time hunting bounties, and go where they think someone worth catching can be found. They heard you have a bounty on your head, and can be found in Nashkel; its never stated or even implied they live in Naskel proper. The Flamming Fist stay at inns (remember Vai?) when not in Baldur's Gate.
The problem with comparing the Nashkel Mines and Firewine is that Mulahey's area features a HEAP of bedrolls.
Anyways, this really is a pointless discussion.
While it is true that the Hobgoblins are probably mobile, the fact remains that they have to sleep somewhere as well and there is no evidence that they have hovels anywhere around. By the same token that the Tasloi 'live in trees'. You don't see out houses in the town, but they must be there.
you are awfully eager to accept reasonable explanations for the other monsters, but not Kobolds. Why is that? The Kobolds may very well be a traveling band who happen to recently settle in Firewine. Equally, they may be 'squatting' in the dungeon and leaving exactly the same 'evidence' as the other examples that you give.
Owing to the increased number of monster types in the area, it is reasonable enough to assume that they are drawn there on the offer of treasure but haven't established themselves yet. Certainly that is a much more reasonable explanation than that they 'commute' to guard duty. If they don't come long distances EVERY SINGLE DAY, there will be a community. Pure and simple. We simply don't see it. And if there is a community, there will be LOADS of them.
At the end of the day, is it a tinny inconsistency that they don't front load you with a full on lair? Only by the very smallest of margins in my book and one EASILY overlooked. Certainly it is MUCH easier to overlook that than to assume that the bands of Kobolds through out the region commute hundreds of miles in just to 'guard' duty every day, and then pack back home. If there are a few, there are bound to be A LOT. That's the way Kobolds hang. Being small, they band together.
The reason I find it immersion breaking in theory is because there clearly are no kobolds living there. I dont really think spawning 10 or 20 swordsmen in the Cloakwood Mine breaks immersion, since we know this is an enemy fortress; Firewine is a dungeon you happen to find lots of kobolds in.
Hmmm... just thought of that; HUGE stretch since it seems utterly uninhabitable/a pile of rubble, but for 'argument' sake, perhaps Kobolds are hiding in there? Ugh, Firewine reeks of unfinished ideas and disapointment, not Kobolds.
However, this is admitedly a pointless discussion. Let this end!
If I am in a room with only one entrance with me facing it, how the hell are 40 kobolds (or 20 swordsman) beaming down BEHIND me.
(Solution is really simple: have the enemy party spawn at map entrance and walk toward you, to interrupt your sleep.)
What you see in the area doesn't necessarily represent the entire structure; the monsters have to come from somewhere, and if they don't come from a place you can see, then they naturally must come from a place you can't.
That being said, it's no different from a D&D campaign where you're resting in a dungeon and the DM tells you that monsters attack you in your sleep; you might never find a source for those monsters, but the DM gets to determine what makes sense and what doesn't, for the sake of moving the story forward.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt
"Frink: Yes, over here, n'hey, n'hey. In Episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a winged Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene, my dear, you're clearly atop a winged Arabian! Please do explain it!
Lucy Lawless: Uh, yeah, well, whenever you notice something like that... a wizard did it.
Frink: I see, alright, yes, but in episode AG04-
Lucy Lawless: Wizard!"
— The Simpsons, "Treehouse of Horror X"
Takes time to replenish their troops!
They were set on fire. Last Dice of Unluckiness, indeed.
We, die-hard BG fans, are ready for the hordes of kobolds any minute:
So, yeah, bring them on!
Was my memory of the original game fogged, or did the encounter-size scaling change in BGEE?
( @Dee ?)
(If yes, this is generally a good thing, actually: the original game did kill you at low levels with an unlucky encounter roll. Right now, you start with one gibberling, and go up to ... well... 40 kobolds.)