This Icewind Dale you speak of…
Ravenslight
Member Posts: 1,609
It has been a really long time since I played this game, and honestly I just can’t remember much about it. I think, I may of gotten bored with a party of NPCs that had no mind of their own. Am I even remembering this correctly? I don’t think I even finished the game. Maybe I didn’t give it a fair chance. I feel like I must be missing something as so many here on this forum obviously have excellent taste in RPGs, as they love BG as well. 
Have I really been missing out? Is the story amazing? Perhaps the setting? Should I really be jumping up and down in anticipation and just don’t know it yet?
Am I the only one who didn’t get hooked the first time out?
Have I really been missing out? Is the story amazing? Perhaps the setting? Should I really be jumping up and down in anticipation and just don’t know it yet?Am I the only one who didn’t get hooked the first time out?
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Comments
The reason the game didn't hook me personally is because I had allready played Baldur's Gate II which had class kits. And Sorcerers. Better resolutions. Etc. etc., it just made ID and the first BG so incredibly much inferior mechanics-wise. With ID:EE it seems I'll finally be able to finish it.
On the flipside, there are a number of people who like IWD precisely because it doesn't have joinable NPCs, and instead allows you to create entirely your own party and form your own imagination of them. Speaking personally, while I generally prefer BG over IWD, I think it will be a nice change of pace to have the freedom to create a character and then not have to worry about RPing their personality and background.
It's still an excellent game and has great combat though
I think it helps if you create a main character for yourself that you're really into, and let the other five characters be your followers. You do have to create them yourself, but there are a much bigger variety of voice sets to choose from than in BG, and they're all well voice-acted, with lots of individual personality.
If you just can't live without interactive npc dialogue, there's a very good IWD NPC Project by @kulyok , which will hopefully be made compatible with IWD:EE quickly.
IWD is extremely combat intensive, and pretty much amounts to a straight out hack and slash dungeon crawl. People who like it the most are usually really into leveling characters and coming up with ideas for powerful characters and combat tactics.
Sometimes I'm in the mood for roleplay, and sometimes I'm in the mood for hack and slash, so I like both BG and IWD, although I've played a lot more BG over the years.
By contrast, I've never been able to get into Planescape:Torment. I just can't get into spending a huge amount of play time on what amounts to an interactive novel where you read most of the game, and there is very little action.
So, you have PS:T on the extreme end of roleplaying, IWD on the extreme end of hack and slash, with BG being an even mixture of the two things.
It's a matter of taste. BG pleases both crowds, which is why it's the most popular. PS:T pleases the extreme roleplayers and story lovers, while IWD pleases the power gamers and hack-n-slashers.
In terms of exploration and of character development/interaction I feel Baldur's Gate is the more interesting game. If you don't like roleplaying various characters at the same time, there is an Icewind Dale NPC pack that may be made compatible with IWDEE. Might prevent you from getting bored. (And who knows maybe the enhanced edition will offer a number of NPCs like they did in BGEE, or maybe BGEE NPCs can be made compatible with IWDEE, as both games run in the same engine.)
But obviously the BG story is better from a "character" perspective and has a much more nuanced story including more different directions to go and different choices and how and when to do things.
I've spent far more time on the BG games over the years. But I've thoroughly enjoyed my 9 or 19 IWD run throughs as well.
BG2 had better NPCs than BG (note, non player! Not all npcs are your henchfolk!), but Kresselack is deeper than pretty much anyone in BG2. BG was deceptively shallow in that it appeared deep, but it was a muddy, shallow lake. Much bredth, little depth. IWD is deceptively deep... IWD is like Lake Baikal, so clear you can see the bottom, which you never realize is so deep.
If you can RP, IWD works well. The plot gives urgency that largely disallowed sidequesting. Imho, BG2 style stuff like Trademeet would be implausible for IWD, and the game is better without.
I do agree with you that most BG bosses aren't that well-developed as characters, but that doesn't make BG shallow. After all the BG story is experienced through the eyes of Charname. He/she only finds out bits and pieces about people like Mulahey or Davaeorn, through correspondence, and more detailed info about other characters such as Sarevok (who in my opinion is by no means a shallow character if you look at what he orchestrates and accomplishes in the game, at his troubled affair with Tamoko, and at his motivations as they gradually become clearer).
Also, you say that the IWD plot gives urgency, but I'm not too happy with the fact that this superimportant Archdruid Arundel is hanging out at his cosy tree house (apparently nothing better to do than to wait for my party to do the dirty work, so much for urgency) while my party of adventurers would have loved to explore a couple of optional areas after two of their members died at Dragon's Eye and they found they had no money to raise their fallen.
On the plus side, I loved even some pretty major treasure is randomized each game. It adds some variety to game play that you actually cannot play exactly the same way twice.
For depth, how can you truly say there is any depth to Sarevok? We have background gallore, but he's one giant deathray from being one of the more bonkers Bond villains. In BG1 we know he doesnt really care about Tamoko, and you can show her this in game. Sarevok has no more humanity than a bloodthirsty ogre until ToB, and even then he's cool, but not very... human. Contrast Sarevok with Kresselack... the ancient ghost just trying to keep his tomb cheery is more human than Sarevok; he is even more reasonable.
Irenicus is legitimately pretty deep, but has no of the visceral gutpunch power that Laeral has... both are powerful mages, both elves, and both fall brutally from grace. Laeral however hits thst sweetspot of 'falling for a good cause', trying desperately to save his people in a profoundly tragic tale of trickery and deceit. I havent found many stories as interesting as the combined fall of Dorn's Deep and The Hand. Very strong story telling here, far stronger than Irenicus' childish urge for 'power', in a world ruled by mighty Gods.
You are free to your opinions of course, and I'd have enjoyed SOME manner of side-quest/exploration, akin to the heaps of 'in between' areas in IWD2, but story I cannot say is a weak point in IWD, unless you CHOSE to ignore the story.
the trick for me is to just go all out building around a theme for my parties that way the npcs don't feel quite such non entities. one of my favourites that I remember was a party of 6 mages each from a different school with a different alignment, it was quite a chaotic game
Even Baldur's Gate 1 did it a little; constant references to people you have encountered, possibly killed. People who claim to know them. Little things like that. Baldur's Gate II really throws everything in your face and doesn't do much stop and smell the flowers storytelling. BGII also has that "epic" feel however, so it fits.
btw, no reason you cant think up your own stories for your PCs. I had some decent backstories. Ask yourself, 'what would this LG female half-elf cleric think of this greedy, truly vile and ugly human Fighter Thief? And vice versa?' Would they be respectful? You arent being kept from doing this, you can even have conflict! 'Whoops! My Fireball csught you too? Sorry evil dwarf!' Elf wizards aint big on evil dwarves.
A couple of the dungeons had fascinating backstories that made them unforgettable. I'll never forget the Ice Temple, Dorn's Deep and the Severed Hand. The design for each location was excellent.
And really, the locale sets the tone for the story. Baldur's Gate is a city, so the amount of interesting characters and crazy personalities fits in with the setting. Icewind Dale is a remote location, and a not very hospitable one at that. So it is not jarring to see many "strong silent types" in your party. I actually role play alot in Icewind Dale (it is almost embarrassing the details I go into for my custom made party... almost always include siblings or a couple or something)
The battles are also really memorable, and the dungeons are in my opinion better designed for challenging fun. The villains at various parts of the game are actually haunting, and I prefer many of them over certain "dungeon bosses" from the Baldur's Gate Trilogy.
Oh and the music... utter perfection. Haunting when it needs to be, epic when the time calls for it and downright exhilarating when you are in the middle of a huge battle (and they have some huge ones... sometimes there are simply MORE enemies than you will find in Baldur's Gate)
I first played the game since I was familiar with the engine form BG. Not being a big gamer, I didn't have the patience to learn different things like Neverwinter Nights or anything like that. If nothing else, if you are a Baldur's Gate fan, you might find it a refreshing break from the sister series.
Now, like most people here, I prefer Baldur's Gate (and by a decent margin) but I've actually finished Icewind Dale more times because I don't have the same restartitis. It comes from not having so many damn NPC choices! So if you are like me you might actually enjoy being able to complete a game in one run, without it taking too much time from your life. In that way it is less frustrating than Baldur's GAte. I have beaten the game four times and loved it each time (and I even beat the sequel). It is a consistent good time and short enough for you not to get sick of it. Plus the loss of NPCs is partially compensated for by the fact that customizing 6 different adventurers can actually be quite fun, and you can even try new variations.
I highly recommend the game, really. Don't view it as competition with Baldur's Gate, but rather a different and refreshing break from one of your favorite games. It is close enough to Baldur's Gate to make the transition easy, but different enough to make it interesting. Go for it!
Despite not having NPC that join you, there are actually some neat roleplaying opportunities.
For one, think about who would go on an adventure to help out a troubled region in the middle of a tundra. It is essentially the Wild West. You would think people who would go there are either
A. Really dedicated to a cause (like a cleric of a unpopular religion seeking a place where he can practice, or a John Wayne style Paladin seeking to ensure justice in a harsh place, etc)
B. Someone trying to get away from something or start over. Good backstory for rogues or bards, and perhaps even Druids. Imagine a druid whose region has become more and more civilized over the past few years. Where would they go?
C. One of my favorites: exiles and prisoners. You know how they used to tranpsort prisoners to far away Prison Colonies back in the day? I made one party with a Ranger who led a band of prisoners to Icewind Dale to "pay off their debt to society" by helping protect the Ten Towns. I am a sucker for redemption stories.
These three (and I'm sure there are more) provide you with ample opportunities to flesh out your own characters in your "Head Canon". If that is your thing, then you might find Icewind Dale to be a more enjoyable roleplaying experience than you imagined.
Also: Bards, Druids and Paladins are given several unique roleplaying options, so if cool little morsels of story are your thing I highly recommend carrying those three in your party! I hope they do the same for barbarians in the Enhanced Editions since the game provides a lot of opportunities for that.
BG may have a cast of memorable and quirky pre-made NPCs, but from a certain POV, that could actually be considered a limitation rather than a benefit. IWD allows you 100% freedom to devise as much or as little of your character's personality and background as you want. By contrast, even your BG charname was restricted to being a 20-year old who was raised by an old man in a library fortress.
Also, with IWD, you can mix good and evil party members without concerns over intraparty conflicts - so with the addition of BG2 kits, you can now have a cavalier and a blackguard fighting side-by-side.
Sure, Baldur's Gate has more quests and dialogue, but once you know them too well it loses its charm. IWD has the better replay value.
Also, Icewind Dale just looks and sounds a lot more refined than BG, immersion-wise it's just one notch above.
Fair concerns to have about IWD, but if you are worried about a "party of NPCs that had no mind of their own", i would highly recommend you search out CapitanGarlic's magnificent playthrough of Icewind Dale 2.
(address http://lparchive.org/Icewind-Dale-2/)
It's a highly amusing, idiosyncratic, fourth wall breaking account, but completely brilliant and hilarious, and being as it's of #2, won't give any spoilers if you do decide to play #1.
I think it's a perfect example of creating a party for a game like this than then takes on a life of its own and the individual personalities shine through. I had started my own similar style of playthrough for both games before reading it the first time, but gave up as I quickly realised that I had a couple of similar characters in my parties, and also that i would never scale the comedic heights of this, and I also started inadvertantly stealing lines from it as i was writing my own as they got stuck in my head.
So yeah, definitely not a serious high fantasy party but I thought it gives a good example of how a group of characters can transform from a pedestrian lifeless lot supporting a main character to being individually distinct, relevent and important to the story.