As a new BG:EE player (haven't quite gotten through my first playthrough, but average char level in the party is equivalent of level 7 to 8) and a veteran IWD player, it has been interesting to follow the above posts. My 2 cents:
BG advantages: NPC's that join your party and provide scripted RP interactions; non-linear play; great story development.
IWD advantages: BEAUTIFUL sound (like I have not yet heard in BG), BEAUTIFUL scenery (like I have not yet seen in BG); great story, BIG variety of tactical challenges; excellent NPC "bad guy" RP development; epic and satisfying battles; with HoW expansion, ability to easily develop characters to DC or MC 12/13 -- A DC fighter/druid, for instance, can get to F9/D14+, which is actually interesting to play. There is rewarding play for proper party planning and character development (e.g., power gaming). IWD+HoW allowed scaling view, so that you could see more territory surrounding your party. Oh, and Bard's (with HoW installed) can be a POWERFUL and very fun addition to the party.
If the same path is followed for IWD:EE as was followed for BG:EE, then I would expect IWD:EE to include HoW and TotLM expansions, which takes away a little of the linear feel (although each expansion is quite linear within itself, and TotLM can only be accessed from within HoW).
I see how BG is really a whole different focus and experience than IWD/HoW/TotLM. Both have a great story, and very well delivered. Both are great. Whereas BG is non-linear, and discovering and experiencing the story and character interaction is the focus; IWD's story is more a mechanism to linearly drag your party through a series of areas, each of which sport a variety of interesting, engaging and exhilarating tactical challenges. IWD has NO variety of party NPCs and accompanying scripts. But in IWD there is more VARIETY of tactical challenges in any one of at least three of the different chapters of IWD (and that is not including HoW or TotLM) than I have experienced, so far, in all of BG:EE.
IWD is for those who love to solve a variety of tactical challenges with a party of RP characters developed solely by the player.
one of my favourites that I remember was a party of 6 mages each from a different school with a different alignment, it was quite a chaotic game
@element I had already thought about doing that when the game comes out. How did it go? (besides being chaotic?) Did you beat the game? I really want to try my hand at this.
oh oh oh, I forgot to mention one of the most important things.
Like you, I was totally NOT immediately hooked. In fact, the only reason I played Icewind Dale is because it was winter break in 8th grade and I LOST Disc 3 in Baldur's Gate.
I thought it was gonna be an absolute disaster... but then I said, "hey, I guess I might as well play Icewind Dale". I had quit after the first "dungeon" (it wasn't even a dungeon... it was one floor with some orcs and a big stupid ogre) but after I got by the first town it got really really fun and I ended up beating it. I beat it before I even beat Baldur's Gate (I'm ashamed to say that wouldn't happen... until the EEs came out).
There're many solid replies already. I'll try to add mine.
Yes, I've played BG more often than IWD simply because IWD is more or less straight forward. You can't mingle there, you can't dabble around. You go through the game and then you're done. BG (especially BG1) is much more of an semi-open world game so you're simply able to to mix things up and it becomes less tedious.
But I still like IWD.
Icewind Dale is set in a world of snow and ice. I love that and there are to few games with such a setting as it is. The IWD series has the more beautiful, fantastic, imaginative levels. I like the art style.
And you know, I think the story in IWD is underrated. Typically (and you see it from some of the comments above) IWD is seen as just a linear hack'n'slash with no story to speak of, but I think there is a lot more to the game than just that.
For you, as a starter, just like for me once many years ago, the scenery should seem the best of all these classic games, and the music too. Stepping into few locations and venturing around there for the first time. to me, was downright scary, and it had a wonderful and unique atmosphere.
i like IWD and PS:T, as well as BG. in IWD you make your own party and go on an adventure with them. their story is what you make of it. IWD has a story as well, and the various characters that move the stories along shine. PS:T is about story and characters. your choices really matter, and in true RPG fashion if you want to go the peaceful route you are allowed to. BG is a mix of these two opposing side of the spectrum RPGs, with an excessive amount of NPCs thrown in with no real reason given for the party limit (and plenty of reason why it shouldn't be there). in fact the only stuff that BG does without either of the two doing it is generally bad. however BG is better than either of the two due to the fact that it has both sides of the western RPG spectrum. so if you like the epic hack and slashness of BG then you'll like IWD, if that was not something that drew you to BG then IWD will suck, and you should seek out PS:T. if you can't take the extremes of either IWD or PS:T then BG is for you, and maybe neverwinter nights diamond (the one with all expansions and such) is what you should try when you need more BGness. for me i liked both extremes, so neverwinter was my least favorite of those mentioned (which isn't an infinite engine game anyway).
what is really exciting is when they get IWD working good with multiplayer, that way you can set up a game with a few friends and have a real tabletop RPG experience (well a hack'n slash campaign anyway).
Thank you for all your thoughtful responses everyone! They are kindling the sparks of imagination I need to envision my character in this world. I think the level of combat may be off-putting for me, but all I need to overcome that is to have the right protagonist “take over” in my head.
I’m getting some hints here that I might find a druid interesting to play as my main, in this beautiful world with haunting ambiance. I’m starting to see her all bundled up in animal skins against the cold. A good sign.
I’m assuming the rules, spells and such, are mostly the same as BG? Someone, I’m sorry I forget who, mentioned something about druids that made me think they might be a stronger class to play in this game. Is that true?
I actually liked a lot the fact that IWD is just a big single adventure, in a traditional way. Is a set story, your decisions doesn't change anything, but I don't think is a bad thing.
Sure thing also BG is a big adventure, but in the middle of the main story you can derail to do other things and follow other stories. in IWD there are sub quests, but they are prettty simple and you can't miss them most of the time.
Another good aspect is that every single combat is a big deal, is not just a wild dogs ambush that you get annoyed with from tiem to time, even a small horde of undead can put on your knees and you can't go somewhere else to gather XP, so every combat is a strategy challenge that make you use all your party abilities and I honostly can't wait to give it a try in multiplayer with a good party.
As for the expansion I personally liked a lot Trial of The Luremaster, can't say much else without spoiling it and for who didn't still play it should keep the surprise.
I’m assuming the rules, spells and such, are mostly the same as BG?
Mostly, yes. I remember the original ID had "mastercraft" weapons (non-magical weapons with +1 Taco.. err, THAC0) and I think a couple additional spells like Cat's Grace and those... mind might be playing tricks on me on that one though. But overall if you're familiar with Baldur's Gate then you're familiar with Icewind Dale in terms of how stuff works.
@ravenslight BG1&2 were based on 2nd ed. DnD. so was IWD1, so it is pretty similar. that being said there were some changes from 2nd ed. DnD that BG did that IWD didn't do, so it is closer to true DnD in a few small ways (as silverstar has mentioned the masterwork weapons and some changes to cat's grace).
IWD2 used 3rd ed. DnD and was quite a bit different, so they might make it use that rule set like they did with BG1:EE (using BG2 to a large degree for BG1). if they do there are people that will be unhappy with that though, so i doubt it.
The rules are essentially the same, but there are numerous additional powers for Bards and Druids in particular.
For one, druids get a LOT more attack oriented spells (plus level two is actually useful for them). They can be like a blasting evoker mage when it comes to dealing direct damage. They also have some nice shapeshift options that add a lot of flavor (and are probably a little better than the Baldur's Gate choices.
Bards are much more useful in IWD since they have multiple song options. So rather than a little plus one to hit and damage or something like that, they bet multiple buffing and even healing abilities. Plus they get lots of cool items with very nice lore behind them.
* The Tale of Curran Strongheart: Get it at 3rd level. Removes fear and makes you less likely to be afraid.
* Tymora's Melody: 5th level. W +1 luck, +3 saving throws, and +10% to their lore skill and thief skills.
* The Song of Kaudies: 7th level. allies gain a 50% chance to shrug off the effects of spells such as Silence, Shout, Great Shout, Command, or any other sound-based attacks.
* The Siren's Yearning: 9th level. When played, the bards’ enemies must save vs. spell or be enthralled, unable to take action unless 1 turn passes or they take damage.
* War Chant of Sith: The War Chant of Sith becomes available to bards when they reach 11th level. When played, the bards' allies gain -2 bonus to AC, +10% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile attacks, and they regenerate 2 hit points every round.
Also some new spells (clerics and druids benefit the most)
Also "backstab" is replaced by "sneak attack" which is just attacking a creature from behind (no need to be hidden in shadows). It also adds an extra feature that backstab doesn't: Crippling Strike You get it at 5th level: "This allows thieves to cripple an opponent with a successful Sneak Attack, reducing their chances to hit and damage. This crippling effect is in addition to the normal Sneak Attack damage. A Crippling Strike improves with the thief's level. At 5th level, a thief's Crippling Strike causes the victim to suffer a -1 to hit and damage rolls, at 9th level, -2 to hit and damage, at 13th level, -3 to hit and damage, and so on, with an additional -1 penalty to hit and damage for every four levels of the thief. A creature hit with a Crippling Strike will regain their normal to hit and damage rolls one turn after being crippled
One advantage of Icewind Dale is multiplayer. The game just seems well suited to it, and for those who miss the NPCs of BG, having a good friend or two controlling characters is often even better. I played through the entirety of IWD with a friend and the experience was a great deal of fun. If Beamdog can deliver on the multiplayer promises perhaps people who miss NPCs can assemble a party of fellow players who can supply some fun and unexpected banter.
one of my favourites that I remember was a party of 6 mages each from a different school with a different alignment, it was quite a chaotic game
@element I had already thought about doing that when the game comes out. How did it go? (besides being chaotic?) Did you beat the game? I really want to try my hand at this.
honestly it was so long ago that I barely remember much about it, so I realy cant help you too much. I'm pretty sure I did beat the game though. I remember it taking ages due to constant need to retreat and rest etc, especially earliar on when my supply of spells was very limited.
I'm probably the only person in the world who prefers IWD's blank slate party over BG's NPCs with personality.
I think both approaches have merit. Why people want to cross the streams and make IWD have NPCs is beyond me, though. If you can't play a game without Minsc or Bastila Shan talking to you, then IWD was not made for you.
Bastila and Aribeth (from NWN) have way too much in common. "I'm good!" "No, wait, I'm evil!" "No, actually, I'm really good, I think." "No, no, in fact I am quite positively evil, see the red gleam of my blade!" "Oh, you like me? You REALLY like me? Okay, then, tootles to you evil that didn't have to work very hard to corrupt me, I have a new boyfriend now!"
There really should be a cleric spell for curing mental disorders.
Bastila and Aribeth (from NWN) have way too much in common. "I'm good!" "No, wait, I'm evil!" "No, actually, I'm really good, I think." "No, no, in fact I am quite positively evil, see the red gleam of my blade!" "Oh, you like me? You REALLY like me? Okay, then, tootles to you evil that didn't have to work very hard to corrupt me, I have a new boyfriend now!"
There really should be a cleric spell for curing mental disorders.
Bastila was okay, given I had no other options for my Dark Jedi to make out with. Even if Juhani's romance hadn't been cut, she would have been a lesbian. Shame, too, because Juhani was my first choice.
Aribeth, however, is totally awesome if you're Evil and keep her Evil.
I guess dating crazy women is part of the whole evil protagonist thing. Thankfully, despite having a few crazy women, IWD doesn't make you date any of them. Unless they change something in IWDEE, although I haven't seen a "Romance An Aurilite Priestess: Can you melt the ice queen's cold heart, or will she leave your own a frozen ruin?" listing.
The Blackguard who is going to co-lead my IWD:EE party would totally romance that crazy priestess. But, then, he's got a fetish for the unusual, and crazy ice witch fits the bill.
I hope we'll have a chance to turn on and off these features. The first playthrough of IWD:EE I want to make should be without those features. Maybe on the second run
The Blackguard who is going to co-lead my IWD:EE party would totally romance that crazy priestess. But, then, he's got a fetish for the unusual, and crazy ice witch fits the bill.
Aurilites are seriously crazy evil shit. Even Blackguards don't like freezing to death and taking a whole region with them, do they?
I hope we'll have a chance to turn on and off these features. The first playthrough of IWD:EE I want to make should be without those features. Maybe on the second run
sneak attack and crippling strike are toggleable in the config menu, the rest he linked to were not disableable once you installed the expansion (which is the features he linked to).
the expansion started the move to 3rd ed DnD. IWD2 finished it (well as much as any IE game), which is why i wondered about the EE version going full 3rd (using IWD2's ruleset). i'd be fine either way, though some people won't, so making all changes from the base game prior to the expansion toggleable would be nice (if any of the devs are reading this). if they are going for UWD1's ruleset this would be fairly low hanging fruit too.
Aurilites are seriously crazy evil shit. Even Blackguards don't like freezing to death and taking a whole region with them, do they?
My standby Blackguard character, Drake, is actually Lawful Evil and more of a cultured, empire-building kinda guy. So, you're right, their long-term goals are incompatible. But, then, Drake has also grouped with crazies like Korgan Bloodaxe, Shar-Teel, a Chaotic Neutral Paladin of a sea/blood/war goddess, and a pyromaniac Chaotic Neutral Sorcerer in his several years of being in my stable of standby characters. He epitomizes "ends justify the means" evil. Doesn't mean he wouldn't have an ice-meltingly torrid affair with an ice witch and careen around Icewind Dale with her for a while.
Comments
BG advantages: NPC's that join your party and provide scripted RP interactions; non-linear play; great story development.
IWD advantages: BEAUTIFUL sound (like I have not yet heard in BG), BEAUTIFUL scenery (like I have not yet seen in BG); great story, BIG variety of tactical challenges; excellent NPC "bad guy" RP development; epic and satisfying battles; with HoW expansion, ability to easily develop characters to DC or MC 12/13 -- A DC fighter/druid, for instance, can get to F9/D14+, which is actually interesting to play. There is rewarding play for proper party planning and character development (e.g., power gaming). IWD+HoW allowed scaling view, so that you could see more territory surrounding your party. Oh, and Bard's (with HoW installed) can be a POWERFUL and very fun addition to the party.
If the same path is followed for IWD:EE as was followed for BG:EE, then I would expect IWD:EE to include HoW and TotLM expansions, which takes away a little of the linear feel (although each expansion is quite linear within itself, and TotLM can only be accessed from within HoW).
I see how BG is really a whole different focus and experience than IWD/HoW/TotLM. Both have a great story, and very well delivered. Both are great. Whereas BG is non-linear, and discovering and experiencing the story and character interaction is the focus; IWD's story is more a mechanism to linearly drag your party through a series of areas, each of which sport a variety of interesting, engaging and exhilarating tactical challenges. IWD has NO variety of party NPCs and accompanying scripts. But in IWD there is more VARIETY of tactical challenges in any one of at least three of the different chapters of IWD (and that is not including HoW or TotLM) than I have experienced, so far, in all of BG:EE.
IWD is for those who love to solve a variety of tactical challenges with a party of RP characters developed solely by the player.
Like you, I was totally NOT immediately hooked. In fact, the only reason I played Icewind Dale is because it was winter break in 8th grade and I LOST Disc 3 in Baldur's Gate.
I thought it was gonna be an absolute disaster... but then I said, "hey, I guess I might as well play Icewind Dale". I had quit after the first "dungeon" (it wasn't even a dungeon... it was one floor with some orcs and a big stupid ogre) but after I got by the first town it got really really fun and I ended up beating it. I beat it before I even beat Baldur's Gate (I'm ashamed to say that wouldn't happen... until the EEs came out).
So I'd recommend giving it time.
Yes, I've played BG more often than IWD simply because IWD is more or less straight forward. You can't mingle there, you can't dabble around. You go through the game and then you're done. BG (especially BG1) is much more of an semi-open world game so you're simply able to to mix things up and it becomes less tedious.
But I still like IWD.
Icewind Dale is set in a world of snow and ice. I love that and there are to few games with such a setting as it is. The IWD series has the more beautiful, fantastic, imaginative levels. I like the art style.
And you know, I think the story in IWD is underrated. Typically (and you see it from some of the comments above) IWD is seen as just a linear hack'n'slash with no story to speak of, but I think there is a lot more to the game than just that.
For you, as a starter, just like for me once many years ago, the scenery should seem the best of all these classic games, and the music too. Stepping into few locations and venturing around there for the first time. to me, was downright scary, and it had a wonderful and unique atmosphere.
I could summarize it like the following:
Creature diversity: IWD wins
Combat: IWD wins
Environments: IWD wins
Quests diversity: BG wins
Replayability: BG wins
what is really exciting is when they get IWD working good with multiplayer, that way you can set up a game with a few friends and have a real tabletop RPG experience (well a hack'n slash campaign anyway).
I’m getting some hints here that I might find a druid interesting to play as my main, in this beautiful world with haunting ambiance. I’m starting to see her all bundled up in animal skins against the cold. A good sign.
I’m assuming the rules, spells and such, are mostly the same as BG? Someone, I’m sorry I forget who, mentioned something about druids that made me think they might be a stronger class to play in this game. Is that true?
Join our group of IWD druid lovers!
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/34135/druid-spells and especially this comment: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/508535/#Comment_508535
Sure thing also BG is a big adventure, but in the middle of the main story you can derail to do other things and follow other stories. in IWD there are sub quests, but they are prettty simple and you can't miss them most of the time.
Another good aspect is that every single combat is a big deal, is not just a wild dogs ambush that you get annoyed with from tiem to time, even a small horde of undead can put on your knees and you can't go somewhere else to gather XP, so every combat is a strategy challenge that make you use all your party abilities and I honostly can't wait to give it a try in multiplayer with a good party.
As for the expansion I personally liked a lot Trial of The Luremaster, can't say much else without spoiling it and for who didn't still play it should keep the surprise.
IWD2 used 3rd ed. DnD and was quite a bit different, so they might make it use that rule set like they did with BG1:EE (using BG2 to a large degree for BG1). if they do there are people that will be unhappy with that though, so i doubt it.
For one, druids get a LOT more attack oriented spells (plus level two is actually useful for them). They can be like a blasting evoker mage when it comes to dealing direct damage. They also have some nice shapeshift options that add a lot of flavor (and are probably a little better than the Baldur's Gate choices.
Bards are much more useful in IWD since they have multiple song options. So rather than a little plus one to hit and damage or something like that, they bet multiple buffing and even healing abilities. Plus they get lots of cool items with very nice lore behind them.
Here are the songs (from http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD/how_features.php):
* The Ballad of Three Heroes: You get it at level 1. all the bards allies gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and +1 saving throws.
* The Tale of Curran Strongheart: Get it at 3rd level. Removes fear and makes you less likely to be afraid.
* Tymora's Melody: 5th level. W +1 luck, +3 saving throws, and +10% to their lore skill and thief skills.
* The Song of Kaudies: 7th level. allies gain a 50% chance to shrug off the effects of spells such as Silence, Shout, Great Shout, Command, or any other sound-based attacks.
* The Siren's Yearning: 9th level. When played, the bards’ enemies must save vs. spell or be enthralled, unable to take action unless 1 turn passes or they take damage.
* War Chant of Sith: The War Chant of Sith becomes available to bards when they reach 11th level. When played, the bards' allies gain -2 bonus to AC, +10% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing, and missile attacks, and they regenerate 2 hit points every round.
Also some new spells (clerics and druids benefit the most)
Also "backstab" is replaced by "sneak attack" which is just attacking a creature from behind (no need to be hidden in shadows). It also adds an extra feature that backstab doesn't: Crippling Strike
You get it at 5th level: "This allows thieves to cripple an opponent with a successful Sneak Attack, reducing their chances to hit and damage. This crippling effect is in addition to the normal Sneak Attack damage.
A Crippling Strike improves with the thief's level. At 5th level, a thief's Crippling Strike causes the victim to suffer a -1 to hit and damage rolls, at 9th level, -2 to hit and damage, at 13th level, -3 to hit and damage, and so on, with an additional -1 penalty to hit and damage for every four levels of the thief. A creature hit with a Crippling Strike will regain their normal to hit and damage rolls one turn after being crippled
There really should be a cleric spell for curing mental disorders.
Aribeth, however, is totally awesome if you're Evil and keep her Evil.
I hope we'll have a chance to turn on and off these features. The first playthrough of IWD:EE I want to make should be without those features. Maybe on the second run
the expansion started the move to 3rd ed DnD. IWD2 finished it (well as much as any IE game), which is why i wondered about the EE version going full 3rd (using IWD2's ruleset). i'd be fine either way, though some people won't, so making all changes from the base game prior to the expansion toggleable would be nice (if any of the devs are reading this). if they are going for UWD1's ruleset this would be fairly low hanging fruit too.