I for one though believe that having DLC available the day of release (meaning directly that it's cut content from the original game made available for MONEY) is dirty cheap. Having a Prothean on board might not be a big deal but when you think about it... it kinda is.
*Flashback*
PROTHEANS, ALL DEAD, KILLED BY REAPERS! --few months later-- PROTHEANS, NOT DEAD, TRANSFORMED INTO COLLECTORS!!! --few months later-- PROTHEANS NOT COLLECTORS, ALIVE!!!
That's kind of a big plot twist to be made a simple DLC about if you ask me. Having it as not important is just as insulting as saying that the DLC is cut content from the game and is INSIDE the game and it is BLOCKED until you pay for it... when I believe FIRMLY it should be content available for EVERY player at standard game price. Cutting it off is just dirty capitalization.
Besides, I noticed BioWare went the WRONGEST of all ways when I saw one of the Dragon Age Origins DLC - The feastday gifts and pranks.... What? Are you joking? I mean, that's a low blow, lower than any horse armor DLC. That's just dirty milking out of fans, and trust me, I knew plenty people that bought it simply because it's "BioWare".
It's a truth that not plenty are willing to accept - BioWare is dying. It will be dead before too long, EA killed Westwood and another dozen of great companies out there. BioWare is due to die too. I'm sorry to say it because I know there are plenty of great people over at BioWare, but right now as I see it, Overhaul is the successor of BioWare (similar to Interplay and Black Isle being inXile and Obsidian nowadays)
i miss westwood, but i also miss interplay and black isle.
i think i'm going to take the advice of someone on a different thread and stick to indie games/small companies. I like to pay for what i get, and get what i pay for, but i assume that just means *i want something for free*.
Rather than make the regular edition of ME3 $70, they gave you the option of not purchasing that entirely optional content.
No game is worth $70 IMO. The reason why they changed their business plan from 1 main game + 1 expansion to 1 main game + lots of tiny additions, as I understand it, is simply that humans are dumb with numbers. In our minds, 60 + 10 + 10 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + ... is better than just 60 + 30 It's the same tactic as the pricing scheme of $59.99, which does not quite register as $60. People have the "choice" to purchase less, but really this only leads everybody to even bigger expenses, and the customers don't even notice - since many of the purchases are even happening inside the game.
It's the same tactic as the pricing scheme of $59.99, which does not quite register as $60. People have the "choice" to purchase less, but really this only leads everybody to even bigger expenses, and the customers don't even notice - since many of the purchases are even happening inside the game.
Paying $1000 for WoW is not very different.
Interesting story about the 99 cents bit. That originally started back when the cash register first started seeing regular use, so store clerks would have to get change out of the register regardless of what bills the customer was using. It made it easier for managers and accountants to keep track of revenue and made it virtually impossible for clerks to just pocket money.
The whole point is what the guy from bioware said about the dumb customer (to me) who just buys anything just for the sake of having it. Making it a privilege only rich kids have or the uber neerds to use a more powerfull weapon then any other MP player who also paid for the game already is the S*** honestly!
And that is exactly the way their future looks like if you think their money hungry logic to the end. Make everything a privileg so the idiots=we have to pay and to pay and to pay to stay on top of the competiton in MP. This whole idea of turning games into a capitalized tool for the business guys will ruin the art behind game development. And you the customer with some dignity wouldnt follow this, so i´m done with that, some are still blind and ignorant!!!
and yeah, ammo for real money ya know... thats something the EA head seriously said to their stock holders. Sorry to say but it´s the new generation, the yournger ones who dont get the real problem now a days.
an expansion is similar but not the same thing. I have never seen an expansion pack add 1 char or 1 weapon, and charge 10 usd for it? anyone seen that from an expansion pack? not dlc, they go by different names.
at the end of the day, if you were happy with me3, i'm glad. i found it to be horrible, great production values, but next to nothing of the original game was still in there in, imho.
I found good things in all 3 ME games, I was disappointed by ME3 not by the ending nore by the DLC but by the Multi-player.....The game didnt need multi-player and would have been better without it. In my crusty old opinion
I for one though believe that having DLC available the day of release (meaning directly that it's cut content from the original game made available for MONEY) is dirty cheap.
Got to disagree with you. Having DLC ready on the day of release of the PHYSICAL media is not and does not mean it was taken out of the game. It means the game was done, they had material to add that was not essential to the game and it could be tested, and readied while the PHYSICAL media is being pressed and readied for shipment...digital distribution cuts weeks maybe months on the process time.
i miss westwood, but i also miss interplay and black isle.
i think i'm going to take the advice of someone on a different thread and stick to indie games/small companies. I like to pay for what i get, and get what i pay for, but i assume that just means *i want something for free*.
No it means you are free to do what you want. Telling a company what they can and cannot charge for is not really something the public is responsible for, all the public should do is spend their money on those things that promote what said public wants to support.
AND you are not forced to do either this or that...you can do both I play with indie games and I play with the big production value games....IF and its a BIG *IF* I like the game.
why is it that just today we have this sort of DLC huh? Not a money making tool? a gift to the loyal customer then what... yeah guys. Santa claus exists too:D I have worked for ATVI a little bit and back then they said "patching in content" to keep the base happy.
It's awful that now we get 80% of a game, and have the rest of it sold to us through DLC. Unfortunately, most gamers aren't very good consumers. In many cases of new games/DLC announced I see "Shut up and take my money" posts on forums. Since publishers/developers know that gamers are just waiting for opportunity to throw money at them, they take advantage of that. Think about it if you plan to buy DLC, or pre-order a game.
Again, Day One DLC is on a development cycle that finishes after the game has gone gold, at which point the game is being printed onto discs and nothing new can be added. You're not being swindled out of 20%, you're getting 120% on day one instead of later on.
That's the original idea, but we saw enough examples of it not being true. For example: Mass Effect 3's "From Ashes". It was found out that the "additional" crew member, Javik, can be acquired without getting the DLC. By using a save editor and changing Javik's status to already recruited, you can have him in your game as if you bought the DLC. The only thing the DLC added was the mission to recruit him, while he was put to the game during the development. Publishers are abusing the day-one DLC idea to sell us one game as more than one product.
Honestly, I will have to disagree with most people on Mass Effect 3. Although the DLC behavior is extremely unfortunate, (and of course the ending). I really enjoyed the vast majority of the game, and thought it was quite well done. I have personally found that many people (bioware "fans" in particular for some reason) are very, VERY quick to scream hatred on the forums, for things they still buy/pirate and spend many hours playing/replaying.
Lest anyone think that DLC and addition content for a price is something new that Computer Gaming companies invented.....lets revisit the pre-home-computer days of the 1970's....D&D, AD&D, Gamma World, gave us, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, modules galore, monster manuals, Deity manuals, Individual Class Manuals, Individual Race Manuals, Player guides, DM Guides, Spell collection books...all this was "DLC" of the day each item had to be purchased all were "Part of the game" but they didnt give it away for free ..... the parallels line up pretty well.
look we're not going to agree on this. and there's little point in the arguement. i think it's a cruel thing to do to customers, but as many have said, it's business. Well, that is why i buy video games, so that i can later sell them for more money then i paid, thus making it a sound business choice. Yep, that's why i played them when i was a child too.
video games are like movies. in movies you have the reg edition and the collectors edition, which i'm fine with. and you're right, there's not a damn thing we can do, so we should really start to suggest that our fav companies are cheating us by not charging us for every little feature in the game. Hmmm, can the game be played with two people in the same room? should charge each time a 2nd player joins the game just like an arcade machine would. in fact, the producers are actually doing us a disservice by not only selling us the game, but charging us 1 usd everytime we push the start button at the title screen.
How you ask? well, if they're charging us for every little piece of the game, that assures us that they'll be around to make the same game next year, and will also have plent of revenue to make dlc and the like. I'll go and send trent a message that all us loyal fans feel that the game should be 20 off the top plus another 10 usd per char, and for extra areas/scenarios, plus 5 usd per picture. We don't need a picture pack to come with the game, and it's not taking anything away from the game, right?
In fact, if they use this strategy, they'll sure have the money to make bg 2 and bg 3. so really it's ea that loves the fans and beamdog that's spitting in our faces. decent value? screw that, i want to play and i want to lose it all.
excuse me, i have an email to go write. let's see if beamdog really takes it's customer's desires to heart.
why is it that just today we have this sort of DLC huh? Not a money making tool? a gift to the loyal customer then what... yeah guys. Santa claus exists too:D I have worked for ATVI a little bit and back then they said "patching in content" to keep the base happy.
It isnt just today...AD&D pen and paper was released with DAY 1 DLC...modules, and dice....this is nothing at all new. The Computer gaming industry was just behind the sales and marketing curve for a long time....other industries used these methods of cash generation before there were computer games.
That's the original idea, but we saw enough examples of it not being true. For example: Mass Effect 3's "From Ashes". It was found out that the "additional" crew member, Javik, can be acquired without getting the DLC. By using a save editor and changing Javik's status to already recruited, you can have him in your game as if you bought the DLC. The only thing the DLC added was the mission to recruit him, while he was put to the game during the development. Publishers are abusing the day-one DLC idea to sell us one game as more than one product.
You are leaving out some actual necessary information. This info is being quoted without amplifying information as to why the Javik hooks were in the code to begin with.... If you look deeper at the issue with a fair and open mind you might just see that developers frequently want to do more in the game than they have time for. It is not unusual for projects to have parts trimmed out but saved for later use....it doesn't have to be nefarious to happen. Anyone who works in a professional environment should understand deadlines and cutoffs.....its more dificult to understand if your highest form of employment concerned a spatula to flip burgers with or mops but most people who have held jobs understand.
Ok Im done defending ME3 now, I have my own gripes about the game
@immagikman look whatever you feel is best is what you're going to do and same with me. but let me ask you this, if dlc didn't exist, would the prothenian ashes have been part of the main game, not existed, or released as part of an expansion pack for a cheaper price when you compare what all you get for the money? what's your opinion?
@immagikman look whatever you feel is best is what you're going to do and same with me. but let me ask you this, if dlc didn't exist, would the prothenian ashes have been part of the main game, not existed, or released as part of an expansion pack for a cheaper price when you compare what all you get for the money? what's your opinion?
My honest opinion is that if it were not DLC, then it would have been just another piece of code for a piece of the project that didnt get done in time for the release of the physical media...Thats my opinion. Knowing computer games as I do from past purchasing experience and hacking around, it is VERY common to find code that was not implemented in game due to time constraints. ME3 wasn't really all that new in this department.
That being said....it is conceivable they put it in there with knowledge that it wouldn't be implemented on Day 1 UNLESS they had time to do the DLC....again Planning for something isnt a crime....I played the game through with out Javik the first time....I didnt miss him at all.....
I will say that some game companies need to be spanked and HARD, EA for example but I can see business cases and budgets and the need for profit as well as appreciate that I don't want to keep paying through the nose for half finished crap.....ME3 wasnt half finished crap without Javik....the real criminals are the Free to Play web games that use Micro-transactions... and games like WoW.
Got to disagree with you. Having DLC ready on the day of release of the PHYSICAL media is not and does not mean it was taken out of the game. It means the game was done, they had material to add that was not essential to the game and it could be tested, and readied while the PHYSICAL media is being pressed and readied for shipment...digital distribution cuts weeks maybe months on the process time.
I agree on your statement but a prothean IS important. It's ESSENTIAL, and if they didn't make it so, then they made a joke of the entire series in the first place! For instance let's take the Stone Prisoner DLC that people that bought DA:O got for free if it was a fresh copy. Not essential, so they could have monetized from that, even if to some degree it would still invoke bitter anger inside people.
On the other hand, we got some companies that spoil us with free content (namely CD Projekt which sold, what EA or Activision would price 150 euros, for 50 euros). Which makes a turning point now - Free DLC was made to fight piracy. Paid DLC was made as a tiny bonus to some people that wanted to expand their games (most notably Oblivion), which then transformed itself into mini-expansions (Mass Effect or Fallout 3 come into mind, but we have to keep in mind that the FORMER, still a BioWare game, had the more important one free).
So what are DLC, paid or free? Greed from corporations, means to fight piracy or simple bonus to true fans (which, as I mentioned with the Prothean DLCs, are too extreme in my opinion)?
well all i can say is that maybe all of this is saving the gaming industy, but i keep thinking about the video game crash of the 80's, and i keep expecting ea to lead the charge to the one i see coming. when you take the fun out of video games, what's left? my gaming budget isn't a monthly bill, and if i look around and don't see anything, i'm more then happy to spend my money on something else.
i think that if it weren't for dlc, the ashes would have been in there. i think it's due to the way that dlc sold so well on the first two games. it is possible that they always intended it to be dlc, but i don't think so. i don't trust ea as far as i can throw them, and i'm not saying that anything they say is a lie, but you have to wonder why so many people are so upset about it. if you have the money to blow to pay 100 usd for a game, that's great, and maybe you can afford multiple games in that price range each month, but i can't.
so i'm going to continue to do what i'm doing now. i'll gladly support stardock, i'll gladly support nintendo, i'll gladly support beamdog, and i'll gladly support atlus. i'll stay far away from steam, ea, blizzard, capcom, now bioware, ubisoft, square enix and any other company that i see that openly cares more about money then the people giving them the money. If you're cool with the way they treat you, so be it, i'm in alabama and lots of people were upset about the bp oil spill, and the stupid things they said, but i'm sure many of you on here would defend them for the same reason. the oil rig exploded because they were using the cheapest labor possible and there was nothing wrong with what they were doing until people died, the water got contimanated, and lots of the ecology here was either poisoned or killed off entirely. but who cares, it's just money. *shrughs* bp didn't care until it hurt them.
So what are DLC, paid or free? Greed from corporations, means to fight piracy or simple bonus to true fans (which, as I mentioned with the Prothean DLCs, are too extreme in my opinion)?
Oh I see where you are coming from. Actually I think the mistake is in thinking DLC has to fill one and only one function, it can be both Paid and Free, it can be used as a sort of DRM or it can be used to tell more of the story or it can add more outside the story.....it is just a tool and as with most tools it can be used in a variety of ways. And yes I agree it can be abused just as any tool, Personally I didnt see Javik as an abuse but that is a purely subjective opinion and others may differing views.
@Bjjorick I agree with most of your sentiments but Im a bit peeved with Stardock outsourcing to slimey Game Stop.... If there is another Computer gaming crash like the 80's I fully expect EA to be among the leaders going down the tubes. As I said I do like the indie deves....playing Drox Operative right now and Eschalon Book 1 and S.P.A.Z.
It seems people here don't seem to be aware that even though Mass Effect's Javik was non-essential as a game character, he is an important part of the LORE and the STORY. It's like cutting out a potential plot device out of a story and charging your reader extra to be able to read that certain part of the story you as the author deliberately cut out. Also, don't give me the argument that Javik was developed after ME 3 was completed. We cannot know that. Also, if Javik was developed together with the full game, why wasn't he included in the game? The code was there on the disc before shipping. Sorry, but that seems highly suspicious to me. On a side note, ME 3 could have been so much better if EA hadn't rushed the devs. Same happened to DA 2 and look what kind of a turd that game is. How could it have come this far?
It seems people here don't seem to be aware that even though Mass Effect's Javik was non-essential as a game character, he is an important part of the LORE and the STORY. It's like cutting out a potential plot device out of a story and charging your reader extra to be able to read that certain part of the story you as the author deliberately cut out. Also, don't give me the argument that Javik was developed after ME 3 was completed. We cannot know that. Also, if Javik was developed together with the full game, why wasn't he included in the game? The code was there on the disc before shipping. Sorry, but that seems highly suspicious to me. On a side note, ME 3 could have been so much better if EA hadn't rushed the devs. Same happened to DA 2 and look what kind of a turd that game is. How could it have come this far?
It seems people here don't seem to be aware that even though Mass Effect's Javik was non-essential as a game character, he is an important part of the LORE and the STORY. It's like cutting out a potential plot device out of a story and charging your reader extra to be able to read that certain part of the story you as the author deliberately cut out. Also, don't give me the argument that Javik was developed after ME 3 was completed. We cannot know that. Also, if Javik was developed together with the full game, why wasn't he included in the game? The code was there on the disc before shipping. Sorry, but that seems highly suspicious to me. On a side note, ME 3 could have been so much better if EA hadn't rushed the devs. Same happened to DA 2 and look what kind of a turd that game is. How could it have come this far?
You must be including the novels or something, I never had any forshadowing of Javik in ME1 or 2. I wonder how much of the fuss and furor is from those who got into the back story and read all the novels as opposed to those who just played the games.
This isn't about Javik as a character, but about the Protheans in general. You can't say those don't play an important role in the Mass Effect universe.
Comments
*Flashback*
PROTHEANS, ALL DEAD, KILLED BY REAPERS!
--few months later--
PROTHEANS, NOT DEAD, TRANSFORMED INTO COLLECTORS!!!
--few months later--
PROTHEANS NOT COLLECTORS, ALIVE!!!
That's kind of a big plot twist to be made a simple DLC about if you ask me. Having it as not important is just as insulting as saying that the DLC is cut content from the game and is INSIDE the game and it is BLOCKED until you pay for it... when I believe FIRMLY it should be content available for EVERY player at standard game price. Cutting it off is just dirty capitalization.
Besides, I noticed BioWare went the WRONGEST of all ways when I saw one of the Dragon Age Origins DLC - The feastday gifts and pranks.... What? Are you joking? I mean, that's a low blow, lower than any horse armor DLC. That's just dirty milking out of fans, and trust me, I knew plenty people that bought it simply because it's "BioWare".
It's a truth that not plenty are willing to accept - BioWare is dying. It will be dead before too long, EA killed Westwood and another dozen of great companies out there. BioWare is due to die too. I'm sorry to say it because I know there are plenty of great people over at BioWare, but right now as I see it, Overhaul is the successor of BioWare (similar to Interplay and Black Isle being inXile and Obsidian nowadays)
i think i'm going to take the advice of someone on a different thread and stick to indie games/small companies. I like to pay for what i get, and get what i pay for, but i assume that just means *i want something for free*.
The reason why they changed their business plan from 1 main game + 1 expansion to 1 main game + lots of tiny additions, as I understand it, is simply that humans are dumb with numbers.
In our minds, 60 + 10 + 10 + 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + ... is better than just 60 + 30
It's the same tactic as the pricing scheme of $59.99, which does not quite register as $60.
People have the "choice" to purchase less, but really this only leads everybody to even bigger expenses, and the customers don't even notice - since many of the purchases are even happening inside the game.
Paying $1000 for WoW is not very different.
And that is exactly the way their future looks like if you think their money hungry logic to the end. Make everything a privileg so the idiots=we have to pay and to pay and to pay to stay on top of the competiton in MP. This whole idea of turning games into a capitalized tool for the business guys will ruin the art behind game development. And you the customer with some dignity wouldnt follow this, so i´m done with that, some are still blind and ignorant!!!
and yeah, ammo for real money ya know... thats something the EA head seriously said to their stock holders.
Sorry to say but it´s the new generation, the yournger ones who dont get the real problem now a days.
AND you are not forced to do either this or that...you can do both
For example: Mass Effect 3's "From Ashes". It was found out that the "additional" crew member, Javik, can be acquired without getting the DLC. By using a save editor and changing Javik's status to already recruited, you can have him in your game as if you bought the DLC. The only thing the DLC added was the mission to recruit him, while he was put to the game during the development.
Publishers are abusing the day-one DLC idea to sell us one game as more than one product.
video games are like movies. in movies you have the reg edition and the collectors edition, which i'm fine with. and you're right, there's not a damn thing we can do, so we should really start to suggest that our fav companies are cheating us by not charging us for every little feature in the game. Hmmm, can the game be played with two people in the same room? should charge each time a 2nd player joins the game just like an arcade machine would. in fact, the producers are actually doing us a disservice by not only selling us the game, but charging us 1 usd everytime we push the start button at the title screen.
How you ask? well, if they're charging us for every little piece of the game, that assures us that they'll be around to make the same game next year, and will also have plent of revenue to make dlc and the like. I'll go and send trent a message that all us loyal fans feel that the game should be 20 off the top plus another 10 usd per char, and for extra areas/scenarios, plus 5 usd per picture. We don't need a picture pack to come with the game, and it's not taking anything away from the game, right?
In fact, if they use this strategy, they'll sure have the money to make bg 2 and bg 3. so really it's ea that loves the fans and beamdog that's spitting in our faces. decent value? screw that, i want to play and i want to lose it all.
excuse me, i have an email to go write. let's see if beamdog really takes it's customer's desires to heart.
You didn't seem to address my last post. I am curious if you see the corollary I was making there.
Not trying to be evangelical and convert you or anything...Im just trying to get a look into how you come to the conclusions you do.
Ok Im done defending ME3 now, I have my own gripes about the game
That being said....it is conceivable they put it in there with knowledge that it wouldn't be implemented on Day 1 UNLESS they had time to do the DLC....again Planning for something isnt a crime....I played the game through with out Javik the first time....I didnt miss him at all.....
I will say that some game companies need to be spanked and HARD, EA for example but I can see business cases and budgets and the need for profit as well as appreciate that I don't want to keep paying through the nose for half finished crap.....ME3 wasnt half finished crap without Javik....the real criminals are the Free to Play web games that use Micro-transactions... and games like WoW.
For instance let's take the Stone Prisoner DLC that people that bought DA:O got for free if it was a fresh copy. Not essential, so they could have monetized from that, even if to some degree it would still invoke bitter anger inside people.
On the other hand, we got some companies that spoil us with free content (namely CD Projekt which sold, what EA or Activision would price 150 euros, for 50 euros). Which makes a turning point now - Free DLC was made to fight piracy. Paid DLC was made as a tiny bonus to some people that wanted to expand their games (most notably Oblivion), which then transformed itself into mini-expansions (Mass Effect or Fallout 3 come into mind, but we have to keep in mind that the FORMER, still a BioWare game, had the more important one free).
So what are DLC, paid or free? Greed from corporations, means to fight piracy or simple bonus to true fans (which, as I mentioned with the Prothean DLCs, are too extreme in my opinion)?
i think that if it weren't for dlc, the ashes would have been in there. i think it's due to the way that dlc sold so well on the first two games. it is possible that they always intended it to be dlc, but i don't think so. i don't trust ea as far as i can throw them, and i'm not saying that anything they say is a lie, but you have to wonder why so many people are so upset about it. if you have the money to blow to pay 100 usd for a game, that's great, and maybe you can afford multiple games in that price range each month, but i can't.
so i'm going to continue to do what i'm doing now. i'll gladly support stardock, i'll gladly support nintendo, i'll gladly support beamdog, and i'll gladly support atlus. i'll stay far away from steam, ea, blizzard, capcom, now bioware, ubisoft, square enix and any other company that i see that openly cares more about money then the people giving them the money. If you're cool with the way they treat you, so be it, i'm in alabama and lots of people were upset about the bp oil spill, and the stupid things they said, but i'm sure many of you on here would defend them for the same reason. the oil rig exploded because they were using the cheapest labor possible and there was nothing wrong with what they were doing until people died, the water got contimanated, and lots of the ecology here was either poisoned or killed off entirely. but who cares, it's just money. *shrughs* bp didn't care until it hurt them.
I agree with most of your sentiments but Im a bit peeved with Stardock outsourcing to slimey Game Stop....
If there is another Computer gaming crash like the 80's I fully expect EA to be among the leaders going down the tubes. As I said I do like the indie deves....playing Drox Operative right now and Eschalon Book 1 and S.P.A.Z.
I wonder how much of the fuss and furor is from those who got into the back story and read all the novels as opposed to those who just played the games.