Assassin thieving skills development
Blackraven
Member Posts: 3,486
Hi all, inspired by @Sorvan76's and @Southpaw's recent threads I decided to do an SCS no-reload solo run with an Elven Assassin (starting stats: 18-19-15-15-13-10).
So far I've made it to level 7 postponing the main plot and avoiding the most dangerous encounters. I've only invested in Stealth (current scores without items: 115 MS, 30 HiS) and in Find Traps (current score without items: 60). I already have the Boots of Stealth and the Shadow Armor, plus a Red Ioun Stone that gives +1 Dex, so my actual scores are a bit higher, at least in BG1.
There's also a master belt for sale at the Thunderhammer Smithy that gives a +10 bonus to Lockpicks and Disarm/Set Traps. I'll probably buy that one once I have the money. Importantly, I'm playing with item randomization, which means that many items, such as rings of invisibility, lockpicking or danger sence (BG2), etc won't be found in their usual places.
I've never played Assassins because of their low thieving skill progression, and I'd like to know how other people would distribute a solo Assassin's skill points, and in what order.
My thought has been to simply forgo lockpicking and pickpocketing (the latter being a skill I never develop anyway). Both skills can be enhanced relatively easily with potions. This leaves Find Traps, HiS/MS, Detect Illusions and Set Traps as the skills to develop.
I think my main questions are the following:
- Find Traps I consider indispensable given the no-reload character of my run. I know that in late BG1 and the TotSC content scores of about 100 are needed, but I think that this tendency doesn't continue in BG2. What do you consider the minimum Find Traps score for BG2 (not counting on items other than potions)?
- Both Detect Illusions and Set Traps seem invaluable skills to me, especially in BG2. I'm inclined to place my remaining 45 skill points for BG1 (levels 8, 9 10) in DI, and use the first three level-ups in BG2 (11, 12, 13) to raise that score to 100. This would obviously leave my Find Traps score relatively low (60 without items). It also means that I'll have to wait a long time before I can reliably place traps: another six level-ups (levels 14-19). Is this a recommendable course, or will I need the Set Traps skill earlier?
- Just as currently in BG1, my present average stealth score of 70 will be increased in BG2 by 25, thanks to boots of stealth and shadow armor, so up to circa 90. Would that be any good?
Many thanks in advance for your views!
So far I've made it to level 7 postponing the main plot and avoiding the most dangerous encounters. I've only invested in Stealth (current scores without items: 115 MS, 30 HiS) and in Find Traps (current score without items: 60). I already have the Boots of Stealth and the Shadow Armor, plus a Red Ioun Stone that gives +1 Dex, so my actual scores are a bit higher, at least in BG1.
There's also a master belt for sale at the Thunderhammer Smithy that gives a +10 bonus to Lockpicks and Disarm/Set Traps. I'll probably buy that one once I have the money. Importantly, I'm playing with item randomization, which means that many items, such as rings of invisibility, lockpicking or danger sence (BG2), etc won't be found in their usual places.
I've never played Assassins because of their low thieving skill progression, and I'd like to know how other people would distribute a solo Assassin's skill points, and in what order.
My thought has been to simply forgo lockpicking and pickpocketing (the latter being a skill I never develop anyway). Both skills can be enhanced relatively easily with potions. This leaves Find Traps, HiS/MS, Detect Illusions and Set Traps as the skills to develop.
I think my main questions are the following:
- Find Traps I consider indispensable given the no-reload character of my run. I know that in late BG1 and the TotSC content scores of about 100 are needed, but I think that this tendency doesn't continue in BG2. What do you consider the minimum Find Traps score for BG2 (not counting on items other than potions)?
- Both Detect Illusions and Set Traps seem invaluable skills to me, especially in BG2. I'm inclined to place my remaining 45 skill points for BG1 (levels 8, 9 10) in DI, and use the first three level-ups in BG2 (11, 12, 13) to raise that score to 100. This would obviously leave my Find Traps score relatively low (60 without items). It also means that I'll have to wait a long time before I can reliably place traps: another six level-ups (levels 14-19). Is this a recommendable course, or will I need the Set Traps skill earlier?
- Just as currently in BG1, my present average stealth score of 70 will be increased in BG2 by 25, thanks to boots of stealth and shadow armor, so up to circa 90. Would that be any good?
Many thanks in advance for your views!
6
Comments
Of course, your solo assassin will soon also get Use Any Item, after which scrolls of knock and invisibility make those skills essentially obsolete.
The only drawback I can see is that you won't have any fighter levels so you cannot combine Assassinate with Whirlwind/Greater Whirlwind, but by then scrolls of haste or improved haste will be available.
As for points, remember the Mercykiller Ring gives you 60 useful points, and the other 2 rings can be used as necessary.
In my personal experience, you can typically get by with well less than averaged 100% stealth by being really tedious. 70% should be enough. Use the Ring of Invisibilty to survive rough moments when you failed a vital hide check.
Fwiw, you will get iirc +2 Dex at least during Watcher's Keep, so consider each boost gets +5% on thief skills.
To your questions directly:
-I would skip both TotSC quests if I were you. Solo no relosd Assassin will be rough on these places. If you do go, have 60 or 80% find traps, and have many, many potions to boost.
-Set traps is really good, but the Fireball Necklace is perhaps better. If you have points, you wont regret spending on Find Traps, but you ptobably wont regret using traps either way. If you have the Ring of Invisibilty with some chsrges, you can totally get by with less stealth, so you can invest those ranks in traps. DI in BG1 is not good for an assassin imo. Save it for BG2!
-90 stealth is probably plenty, but buy the Ring of Air Elemental Control. Can you still buy infinite of these? You can totally sit on 90 for awhile though.
In BG2 - Look at Imoen, her Thieving levels are quite enough for the utility Thieving for most of the game, if you give her trinkets like Mercykiller ring...
I have actually played an Assassin twice (once in a group and once with Imoen and Viconia as tag-along-lucky-charms. They did not fight in 99% of cases and just came for the ride- and lockpicking and trap disarm in Imoen's case and banter in Viconia's.
Two builds:
1) in a group - my Assassin focused on Set Snare and Open Locks, later Stealth and a few points in Detect Illusion too. But I had him mainly as a trapper and ranged poisonmaster.
2) almost solo - focused on stealth skills and Set Snare and he did back-stab his way through the Sword Coast. Later, started with lockpicking. However, Imoen had to take care of the disarm, lockpicking and petty thievery (Pickpocket).
If I really had to go full solo (without my dear Imoen), I'd build similarly to you - some lockpicking for starters (~50-60max) and keep it that way, focus on trap disarming, snare-setting and some stealth (but obviously rely on the stealth items as much as possible)
Edit: if I don't invest in Detect Illusions at all, I'll have plenty of skillpoints for stealth and detect traps in BG2 and maybe even some for lockpicks.
Concerning Find Traps, only a few, avoidable, traps need really high score to disarm them. Like the ones in Durlag's Tower for example. If you don't plan a completionist run, you don't need this skill higher than 60 IMO. Before I was afraid of traps and I always thought of getting the skill up to 90 as fast as possible, nowadays I only get this one up to 40 for Chapters 1-5, then I increase it to 60 until the end of the game. It's plenty enough, you can disarm every traps in Candlekeep by drinking a potion and then you probably won't need theses potions for the rest of the game.
Like you, I don't use pickpockets.
Setting traps is amazing. Because it directly increase the fighting potential of your Thief, I tend to max it as soon as possible, like stealth.
So for an Assassin, I would go for stealth and traps, with a bit of Find Traps. Lockpicking is good, but because you are soloing, you will have far enough money and XP anyway, I wouldn't stress about it too much.
Gotural, potikns of Thievery work nicely for the few nice grabs from locked chests, ie Candlekeep.
Why Set Trap last? Because it is just so damn hit-or-miss until you score it up to a reasonable level. Anything below 50 is just flat out unusable in my experience and even anything between 50 to 100 is prone to failing. Yeah, doing it my way means you won't have traps for ages, but honestly the one time I tried investing in traps early on my assassin I was doing nothing for a good amount of time. The times it's helped me win fights versus the times it's just backfired in my face has just made it not worth it, I'd dare wager it's even worse in a no-reload.
Detect Illusions can be a massive asset, especially as SCS-buffed mages are prone to using Improved Invisibility, which is a pain. Even having just 30-40 is reasonable if you sit around in invisibility and hope for a lucky dispel illusion.
Find Traps > Open Locks, because I don't think there are many plot-essential locks, whereas the damage from traps can get downright lethal. Oddly I'm running two thieves in my latest party and my PC can unlock some locks with a mere 30.
I'd say ideal stats look something like this:
Open Locks: 50
Find Traps: 60
Hide In Shadows: 60 (90 with items)
Move Silently: 70 (90 with items)
Detect Illusion: 30
Set Traps: (whatever you want, but investing in this really slows progression, I wouldn't advise it)
Shadow Armor is essential. Don't give Zhurlong back his boots either (before Boots of Speed which is a must have). Dagger of Venom is great too. I've had more success using a the Crossbow of Speed rather than a shortbow too due to the time it takes to get a decent shortbow. Alternatively, darts are a good choice.
As you said, the best time for using Detect Illusion is when you are invisible, Invisibility (from potion for example) last for 24 hours. Which means even only a mere 5 or 10 points in Detect Illusion you can reliably dispel every illusions around you if you are invisible yourself, that's why in BG1 it's not very useful, especially because Poison Weapon goes through Mirror Image / Stoneskin / Improved Invisibility. You just need to be patient.
On the other hand, you need to get Set Traps to something like 80+ as soon as possible for it to become reliable.
Note that there is always a 1% chance of critical failure.
An Elven Assassin with 19 Dex has at creation :
Pick pockets 35
Open locks 25
Find traps 15
Move silently 30
Hide in shadows 30
Detect illusion 0
Set traps 10
He has 40 points to spend at level 1 then 15 points per level. With a tome of dex and an Ioun gem, his Dexterity will reach 21, giving him an additional 10/10/10/5/5/0/10 points. His will also have the Shadow Armor, granting another 15 to Hide in shadows (I assume the character will use the Boots of Speed)
So at level 10, his character will have
Pick pockets 45
Open locks 35
Find traps 25
Move silently 35
Hide in shadows 50
Detect illusion 0
Set traps 20
+175 points to spend
I would go for
Pick pockets 45
Open locks 35
Find traps 60
Move silently 80
Hide in shadows 80
Detect illusion 5
Set traps 80
Pick pockets is pretty much useless, Open locks is cool, but in a solo playthrough, you will have enough money / xp, Find traps at 60 will take care of every traps until Candlekeep, just drink a potion or two for the tomes, 80 in stealth will allows you to enter every battles in stealth and to restealth pretty reliably, the same is true for Set traps. And finally, Detect illusion at 5 because you will destroy mages with Poison Weapon, I would put at 5 (or 10 or even 20 depending of your patience) to dispel Potion of Invisibility.
It's pretty important in the final battle with SCS, as long as someone is alive, Sarevok is invincible, and sometimes, the AI is really cheesy, drink a potion of invisibility then just wait, doing nothing, to give enough time to Sarevok to kill you. To prevent this, you can drink a potion of invisibility yourself then wait with Detect illusion.
Brilliant support by @Gotural , @Southpaw , @Mathsorcerer and @Artemius_I !
EDIT: AND BY @DreadKhan of course too!
This is how I do it (and I repeat, I LOVE the SCS Assassin solo):
I ALWAYS take into account BG2, so I try to limit points put into those skills that can be improved via items in BG2. Also, I tend not to put points into HiS and MS at the start of the game because as it turns out they are better spent elsewhere and you get good items to enhance your stealthing skills not far away (boots and armor).
FOR BG1:
Pick pockets - no points put - you gulp several potions and you're on the sky being able to steal everything you need
Open locks - no points put - you can solo the game without opening any chest; on a no-reload run, I'd take safety instead of additional loot from containers any day. There're also potions to enhance this skill.
Find traps - 75 - it's enough for every trap (except Durlag's) in BG1 and with a ring you get +25 = 100 in BG2. There're potions to enhance this skill as well.
Move silently & Hide in shadows - no points put - I try to explore locations in the night time and use any shadow I can, also there're boots and armor to improve it.
Set traps - 80 - it provides a solid chance to set a trap (and I rely heavily on them when playing a thief solo) but when you fail, you just rest and try to set a trap again. In BG2 you get a ring +20 = 100
Detect illusion - 100 - there're no items to enhance this skill in both games and although poison indeed goes through magical defences, sometimes (and in hard battles especiall) it's VERY USEFUL to kill all the pre-generated enemy illusion spells while being invisible through a potion or a ring before the battle starts.
ONLY AFTER I reach these figures, I start putting points into Move silently & Hide in shadows because at the same time backstab multipliers start to be quite deadly and the more potions and ring uses are safe the better.
Later in BG2 (when Move silently & Hide in shadows become solid) you'll have enough points to take your Open locks skill to 75 (+25 from the ring to make it 100).
You didnt mention the very useful Fireball Necklace, something no solo thief should leave home without! Seriously, its cheesefully delicious... like spreading Cheezewhiz on a cheese Dorito and topping it with ground up Cheetos; its that cheesey if you recharge. Rogues are supposed to be clever and resourceful after all.
Most other stuff I pretty much agree on. If you're doing scs, perhaps DI is more worth taking it, but skip it early otherwise. The only chests a thief really needs are the ones with tomes, especially Strength. 19 str is vastly better than 18.
@Artemius_I makes a very good point about Detect Illusions being usable already at scores of 30-40 if the Assassin is invisible and thus has the time to detect illusions. (The only downside is that SCS casters tend to cast True Sight/Seeing when an invisible creature is near, which will dispel the invisibility before the caster's illusions are dispelled.)
I also appreciate @Gotural's and @bengoshi's posts, for their detail and the valid points they make. Everyone seems to agree that Set Snares is worth investing in sooner rather than later. My Assassin has only leveled up once since I first opened this thread. The skill points went into Set Traps.
My current stats at level 8, without items, are:
Open Locks: 25
Find Traps: 60
Pick Pockets: 35
Move Silently: 115
Hide in Shadows: 30
Detect Illusions: 10
Set Snares: 25
With the Tome of Dex, the +1 Dex Ioun Stone, the Boots of Stealth, the Shadow Armor, the Master belt and two more level-ups, my scores will be:
Open Locks: 25 + 10 + 10 = 45
Find Traps: 60 + 10 + 10 = 80
Pick Pockets: 35 + 10 = 45
Move Silently: 115 + 5 + 20 = 140
Hide in Shadows: 30 + 5 + 30 = 65
Detect Illusions: 10
Set Snares: 25 + 10 + 10 + 30 = 75
Detect Illusions will become my priority in BG2 (supposing I'll mke it there).
Also, you can always just use the Cloak of Non-detection. I'm curious as to your reasoning around this. I can't count the number of times I've turned a corner to evade an enemy, tried to stealth and get "Hide in Shadows Failed" which messes with my entire strategy. I'm of the opinion that getting into stealth right away is the most important priority. 115 just seems overkill anyway - as a rule, I usually start focusing on other skills whenever I reach 100 in one.
Also, you may want to take into account stats without Boots of Stealth. Boots of Speed are a godsend to assassins.