Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Pale Master Kit for Sorcerers (1.4.5)

shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
edited October 2016 in General Modding
Based off this Feature Request, @Artemius_I and @bfons86 have put together a Pale Master kit for sorcerers.

The latest build is here: https://github.com/ArtemiusI/Pale-Master-Sorcerer-Kit/releases

Per the description:

PALE MASTER: Necromancy is usually a poor choice for arcane spellcasters -- those who really want to master the deathless arts almost always pursue divine means. However, an alternative exists for those who desire power over undead but refuse to give up their arcane craft completely. Enter the pale master, who draws on a font of special lore that provides a macabre power all its own.

Advantages:
- 1st level: Gains Boneskin.

BONESKIN: The pale master's tough, cadaverous flesh gives them immunity to sleep and a +1 to AC (+2 at 7th, +3 at 13th).

- 2nd level: May use Animate Dead once per day.

ANIMATE DEAD: As per the mage and cleric spell, summons an allied skeleton warrior to serve the caster.

- 3rd level: Gains Deathless Vigor.

DEATHLESS VIGOR: The pale master’s body becomes more akin to the undying flesh of his undead associates. Gains infravision and +1 to saves vs. death (+2 at 8th, +3 at 13th).

- 6th level: The pale master gives in to terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved flesh stitched in place like that of a flesh golem. May use Undead Graft twice per day.

UNDEAD GRAFT: The pale master touches a target with a ghoulish hand. Target must save vs. death or be held for 5 rounds.

- 10th level: Undead Graft saving throw at -1.
- 12th level: Gains Tough as Bone.

TOUGH AS BONE: The pale master becomes more and more like one of the implacable undead. Immunity to hold, stun and poison.

- 14th level: Undead Graft saving throw at -2.
- 15th level: May use Create Skeleton Abomination once per day.

CREATE SKELETON ABOMINATION: Summons a powerful skeleton abomination to serve the caster for 2 hours.

- 16th level: The pale master's touch becomes deadly and can instantly kill a target. May use Deathless Master's Touch twice per day.

DEATHLESS MASTER'S TOUCH: The pale master touches a target with a life-snuffing hand. Target must save vs. death with a -3 penalty or die instantly.

- 18th level: Undead Graft saving throw at -3.
- 20th level: Gains Deathless Mastery.

DEATHLESS MASTERY: The pale masters are practically undead creatures themselves. Immunity to death magic and level drain.

- Hit Die: d6

Disadvantages:
- May cast one fewer spell per level per day.
- Alignment restricted to non-good.
- Incurs a -2 penalty to Charisma.

Feedback and technical assistance would be much appreciated if anyone has the time and inclination to jump in. :)

Post edited by shawne on
AionZKamigoroshiDexterbooinyoureyesrufus_hobartlunarelminsterAntonLuke93NonnahswriterKidCarnivalSmilingSwordmeagloththelovebatShadowdemonSssiksseilor
«1345

Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 2,764
    edited September 2014
    I was going to address the last issue you posted in the original thread, but since this now exists...

    Note to everyone else: The 'one fewer spell' disadvantage isn't implemented, and I haven't figured out how to make the kit use the Dragon Disciple spell table yet. If anyone knows how to do so, I would appreciate it.

    Edit: There are two changes to the kit which I haven't mentioned. Boneguard is now named 'Skeleton Abomination' and immunity to ability drain seems to be impossible to implement (well, it's possible, but it prevents ability boosts as well) so that is no longer in the kit.

    shawnebooinyoureyes
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,781

    Edit: There are two changes to the kit which I haven't mentioned. Boneguard is now named 'Skeleton Abomination' and immunity to ability drain seems to be impossible to implement (well, it's possible, but it prevents ability boosts as well) so that is no longer in the kit.

    Give them spell-specific immunity through opcode 206, and item-specific immunity through opcode 321. You will have to list each source individually, but you can at least account for the all vanilla sources of Level Drain.

    shawne
  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 883
    First, a coding thing: to implement the "1 fewer cast per level per day", just add an AP_XXXXXXX ability on the first level of the CLAB file. Make said ability a .SPL file that decreases the available spell slots by one for every level. This is the only way to do this currently (the Dragon Disciple spells per day table is hardcoded and thus only works for DDs).

    Second, an evaluation of balance: this kit is cool but suffers from the same balancing issues as vanilla Dragon Disciple (namely that one spell slot in exchange for a host of abilities is not really a balanced trade).

    I've drawn this comparsion before, but consider that, instead of making a Pale Master, you had an item (The Ring of Undead Comparison) that had the following features:
    - Finger of Death 2/day
    - Hold Person 2/day
    - Animate Dead 1/day
    - Animate Dead ++ 1/day
    - Immunity to hold, stun, poison, death magic, and level drain.
    - 100% resistance to cold damage
    - +2 AC
    - +2 saves vs death
    - +20 hit points
    - -1 spell per level per day
    - -2 Charisma

    Your response to such an item would probably be "how can I get this on all my spellcasters asap?" That's the point of the exercise: there is not a substantial enough trade off to have to really consider whether you want to pay the cost to get the bonuses because the answer is so overwhelmingly yes. This item fixes a lot of the annoyances that spell casters face (low saves, low AC, low HP, vulnerability to annoying effects [especially level drain]) while only sacrificing a very small portion of their versatility. To be fair, vanilla sorcerer is almost always better than vanilla mage, so you can't hold that against sorcerer kits, but this kit is even more powerful than the already powerful true sorcerer.

    shawneDextersemiticgod
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    I've taken first crack at a biography text for a Pale Master CHARNAME:

    Despite your foster father's many attempts to dissuade you, necromancy has always been your chiefest fascination. Over the years, you have learned to focus the raw magic within you in ways that confound even the most sagacious priests of Oghma. The dead, you have often claimed, make for better company than the living, and when they speak to you now, they promise even greater power beyond the walls of Candlekeep.

    Sorvan76Aedan
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited September 2014
    @Aquadrizzt: The argument against Dragon Disciple (which I agree with, in fact) is that it's underpowered, because you only get one use of the Breath Weapon versus one less casting for every single spell level. Here, the abilities are (or should be) spread out in such a way that they compensate, at least in part, for that loss: one use of Animate Dead, one use of Create Skeleton Abomination, and two uses each of Undead Graft and Deathless Touch should make up for the ten lost spells (the immunities make up the difference, since those lost castings also include protection spells). It's meant to be a trade-off, not an advantage/disadvantage.

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    A very cool kit, but perhaps a bit overpowered in comparison to a Dragon Disciple. That is quite a few immunities that are added in (much better than the +constitutions that DDs get). Particularly the level 20 immunities are quite powerful, and being immune to hold, stun and poison at level 12 can make some hard SoA battles a joke.

    I don't personally care about "overpowered", but it is something that other people seem to consider when installing additional kits.

    I would definitely install this mod though, looks great. Always support more kits.

    JuliusBorisovrufus_hobart
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,339
    This looks fantastic! I'm definitely in love with the kit and haven't even tried it yet!

    lunar
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,339
    So every time I try to run the installer I get an error. I'm obviously doing something wrong
    /blech
    >_<

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Copy it to the directory where the game is (00766 or 00783), extract and run the installer.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,569
    edited September 2014
    I agree it seems pretty overpowered. Forget the Dragon Disciple, just compare to the regular sorcerer (which is already extremely powerful). There's *a lot* going on there in the advantages column - including some that seem random and are good-for-bg2 more than good-for-the-kit's-theme. And not much of anything in the disadvantages column (the only serious one is not even implemented).

    1) This is a sorcerer kit. Sorcerers cast wizard spells as if they were innate abilities. So giving a sorcerer an innate ability as a kit advantage doesn't make much sense to me. Why not just code them as wizard spells, and add them to the kit's spellbook? Then they could be cast as easily as an innate, and potentially even more than once per day, but there is at least a slight trade-off to doing so (not casting s different spell).

    2) I'm not seeing what about "I'm a sorcerer, but into necromancy and controlling undead" translates to "I have an AC bonus like a kensai." Huh?

    3) Ditto for protection from stun. Necromancy = not getting brained when you're hit in the head with a bat? I've never heard of such an immunity in D&D.

    4) Ditto for poison. Poison is a natural, biological attack. Immunity seems appropriate for druids, not necromancers.

    5) Ditto for getting more hp than any other wizard except the one that's part dragon. Why? If anything, story-wise, I'd say that the exposure to the negative energies necessary for mastering these skills would make a Pale Master *less* vigorous than a normal human. Think Raistlin.

    6) I assume "Deathless Touch" (which sounds more like a 'deathful' touch) doesn't work against undead or golems/constructs? Or, here's an idea: make it *only* work against undead - the ultimate form of control, and useful if challenged by another Pale Master with his own undead summons.

    But let's step back. I think a lot of this is just unnecessary. With kits, I find that less is more. Go back to #1) above: adding your special abilities as sorcerer spells, and *not* reducing the spell slots/day, would be a huge bonus because sorcerers are so flexible in how they cast spells. It's an incredibly powerful class ability, so why not play to the class's strengths? How about

    Advantages:
    - can cast Animate Dead, Undead Graft, Create Skeleton Abomination, and Deathless Touch in addition to the normal spells chosen
    - +2 saves vs. death
    - 2% resistance to cold effects, per level
    - immunity to Hold at 12th level
    Disadvantages:
    - maximum 14 Constitution


    Give it an awesome description (which you already have) and done! That is an interesting and unique kit that will play differently than other kits. Remember KISS: Keep It Simple, uh... Sir!

    KilivitzAbdel_Adrian
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 2,764
    edited September 2014

    I agree it seems pretty overpowered. Forget the Dragon Disciple, just compare to the regular sorcerer (which is already extremely powerful). There's *a lot* going on there in the advantages column - including some that seem random and are good-for-bg2 more than good-for-the-kit's-theme. And not much of anything in the disadvantages column (the only serious one is not even implemented).

    I based this heavily off NWN's Pale Master. Believe me when I say I wasn't just pulling kit abilities out of my ass.

    1) This is a sorcerer kit. Sorcerers cast wizard spells as if they were innate abilities. So giving a sorcerer an innate ability as a kit advantage doesn't make much sense to me. Why not just code them as wizard spells, and add them to the kit's spellbook? Then they could be cast as easily as an innate, and potentially even more than once per day, but there is at least a slight trade-off to doing so (not casting s different spell).

    1. Because Undead Graft and Deathless Touch are technically innate abilities. They're developed by the Pale Master surgically removing his arm and replacing it with an undead arm with ghoul-like powers. They're not spells.

    2) I'm not seeing what about "I'm a sorcerer, but into necromancy and controlling undead" translates to "I have an AC bonus like a kensai." Huh?

    Bone Skin. Along a similar line as the Dragon Disciple getting an AC bonus to emulate dragon scales.

    3) Ditto for protection from stun. Necromancy = not getting brained when you're hit in the head with a bat? I've never heard of such an immunity in D&D.

    Part of the Pale Master's progression is that he becomes more like an undead as he grows in power. I'm pretty sure undead can't be stunned or held.

    4) Ditto for poison. Poison is a natural, biological attack. Immunity seems appropriate for druids, not necromancers.

    Again, undead resemblance. Undead are unaffected by poisons and toxins of all sorts, so it stands to reason the Pale Master will get a similar immunity.

    5) Ditto for getting more hp than any other wizard except the one that's part dragon. Why? If anything, story-wise, I'd say that the exposure to the negative energies necessary for mastering these skills would make a Pale Master *less* vigorous than a normal human. Think Raistlin.

    Don't look at me, the 3e prestige rulebook states that the Pale Master rolls d6 for hit points as opposed to d4. I'm just reading off the rules here.

    6) I assume "Deathless Touch" (which sounds more like a 'deathful' touch) doesn't work against undead or golems/constructs? Or, here's an idea: make it *only* work against undead - the ultimate form of control, and useful if challenged by another Pale Master with his own undead summons.

    The actual name of the ability is 'Deathless Master's Touch', but I have a thing against long names :P

    AFAIK, undead and constructs in BG2 are all coded to be immune to instant death effects, and again, I'm just basing it off he rules here.

    But let's step back. I think a lot of this is just unnecessary. With kits, I find that less is more. Go back to #1) above: adding your special abilities as sorcerer spells, and *not* reducing the spell slots/day, would be a huge bonus because sorcerers are so flexible in how they cast spells. It's an incredibly powerful class ability, so why not play to the class's strengths? How about

    Advantages:
    - can cast Animate Dead, Undead Graft, Create Skeleton Abomination, and Deathless Touch in addition to the normal spells chosen
    - +2 saves vs. death
    - 2% resistance to cold effects, per level
    - immunity to Hold at 12th level
    Disadvantages:
    - maximum 14 Constitution


    Give it an awesome description (which you already have) and done! That is an interesting and unique kit that will play differently than other kits. Remember KISS: Keep It Simple, uh... Sir!

    I respectfully disagree, only because of my personal design ethics. It's not my place to decide what kits should be like, but ultimately I'm going to say that this fits my image of the Pale Master the best. I'd feel less satisfied with a heavily watered down version.

    And personally, even with the idea above, I would still add the -1 to spells per day. I believe the sorcerer should be the most viable spellcaster out of the three, while the DD and PM are more specialized and niche.

    shawneelminsterthelovebat
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,569
    Well, but BG isn't a 3e game. Surely you agree that when translating from one system to another, some adaptation must take place. Anyway why do you feel bound by PnP definitions? It's a computer game, not an in-person RPG. Bioware themselves veered very, very far from PnP rules in implementing stuff. So when adding mods on top of that, I think it's more appropriate to design them around this game, not around a different, PnP game.

    I mean the justifications you just gave involve some extremely role-play-heavy stuff that is not easy to translate into this game. You can perfectly easily role-play having a semi-undead arm in this game without *doing* anything, mechanically or ability-wise, to represent it. Like I said, an awesome description goes further than any ability you code up in NI or DLTCEP.

    Finally, if you really want to go the full-bore smoosh-a-3e-prestige-class-into-a-2e-kit route, you seem to be only coding up benefits, not anything else. If you have an undead arm that can kill with a touch, what happens when a cleric turns undead near you? I would think your arm would fall off and you couldn't do much until you got it regenerated, presumably by an evil cleric. If your whole body is so undead that you gain all of the undead immunities, maybe you should gain all undead vulnerabilities as well - being turned, taking damage (and extra damage) from spells like Sunray, one-hit death from Disruption weapons, etc.

    The reality is, you'll never fully reflect all of the PnP aspects of a class like this within BG. So when deciding what gets implemented and what gets left out, compare it to other kits (all other kits, not just the super-powered ones). The best way is to follow @Aquadrizzt‌'s advice and think about the kit like an item work by the base class. How does that item compare to others in the game? If it's better than the Rong of Gaxx/Staff of Magi/whatever awesome item then maybe you should reevaluate.

    I'm pretty sure undead can't be stunned or held.

    I'm pretty sure undead can be stunned. Easy enough to find out, go whack an undead without MR with Celestial Fury. I think it works.

    Eh, I'm just trying to help get this to where I would install it in my game. The mod in the first post isn't. But it's perfectly fine for people to make mods that I don't like! :)

    DexterAbdel_AdrianNoobacca
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @subtledoctor: The argument that BG isn't a 3e game is irrelevant, since Dragon Disciples aren't supposed to exist in 2e either. This kit is meant to emulate the same design as Beamdog's DD: certain innate advantages (DDs get AC bonuses, fire resistance, and flame breath; Pale Masters get one AC bonus, the undead graft and Animate Dead) in exchange for less spellcasting flexibility. Nitpicking about nonsensical scenarios like arms falling off is pointless.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,339
    edited September 2014
    So, I have it in the directory for BG:EE and it has an error that causes it to uninstall itself, then in BG2:EE The kit is greyed out.

    I wish I was better at this, sorry for being a burden QQ

    Edit: Didn't see the human only restriction for BG2:EE derp.

    Still doesn't explain why it won't install to BG:EE Though =/

    Post edited by Vallmyr on
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,673
    I'm not sure whenever you guys have access to it or not. But It might be worth taking a look at the 3.5th edition's Pale Master PrC from Libris Mortis. Possibly interesting aspects are its d4 Hit Die, Deathless Vigor (a +4 Fortitude(/Death?) saving throw bonus, in contrast to the provided death/cold immunities here) and different Tough as Bone immunities (against diseases, nonlethal damage, and stunning).

    And while the following differentiates from PnP, perhaps prohibiting the Pale Master from using Illusion spells like Necromancers do would allow for a more unique playstyle amongst Sorceres. Just throwing out ideas here.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    edited September 2014
    Cross-posted, because this has been brought up before:

    The whole point of prohibited schools for specialist wizards is because they focused their studies on one form of magic, they fell behind on another. A sorcerer's magic is innate, so that doesn't apply.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,569
    edited September 2014
    Whatever - these are all just suggestions which you can consider or (gracefully) ignore, as you see fit.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,569
    edited September 2014
    [eh, weird double-post...]

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Bump for beta-testers, technical advice, updates, etc. :)

  • codybrown913codybrown913 Member Posts: 7
    Its greyed out for me in bg2ee, I would play it if I could actually select it.

  • codybrown913codybrown913 Member Posts: 7
    Let me double check that.

  • bfons86bfons86 Member Posts: 26
    Can anyone update this kit? It gives me an error each time I try to install it.

  • bfons86bfons86 Member Posts: 26
    Does anyone have a working version of the palemaster kit posted here:
    http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/34749/pale-master-kit-for-sorcerers
    When I try to install it I get the following error:
    ERROR; fl#add_kit_ee#get_2da_value could not find row SORCERER and column fallen_notice with 8 required columns
    ERROR: [clastext.2da] -> [override] Patching Failed (COPY) (Failure("ERROR: fl#add_kit_ee#get_2da_value could not find row SORCERER and column fallen_notice with 8 required columns"))

  • bfons86bfons86 Member Posts: 26
    Here is the zipped debug file for anyone who is interested.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,748
    @bfons86 in the palemaster folder replace fl-add_kit_ee with a copy of the tpa file found in this rar file

  • bfons86bfons86 Member Posts: 26
    I replaced the file and installed the mod. It appeares the alignment restrictions are incorrect. All lawful are grayed out, not the good alignments. The spell chart appeares to be incorrect as well. The pc starts with 4 casts of level 1 spells. Which files can I edit to correct this? I haven't tested the class abilities yet.

  • bfons86bfons86 Member Posts: 26
    I have modified this kit to my preference. Changes are as follows:

    PALE MASTER: Necromancy is usually a poor choice for arcane spellcasters -- those who really want to master the deathless arts almost always pursue divine means. However, an alternative exists for those who desire power over undead but refuse to give up their arcane craft completely. Enter the pale master, who draws on a font of special lore that provides a macabre power all its own.

    Advantages:
    - 1st level: Gains Boneskin.

    Boneskin: The pale master's tough, cadaverous flesh gives them a +2 to AC.

    - 2nd level: May use Animate Dead once per day.

    ANIMATE DEAD: As per the mage and cleric spell, summons an allied skeleton warrior to serve the caster.

    - 3rd level: The dark begins to lose its mysteries to a pale master, who gains infravision.
    - 6th level: The pale master gives in to terrible necrophiliac urges. He cuts off his arm and replaces it with an undead prosthetic, which may be skeletal in form or preserved flesh stitched in place like that of a flesh golem. May use Undead Graft twice per day.

    UNDEAD GRAFT: The pale master touches a target with a ghoulish hand. Target must save vs. death or be held for 5 rounds.

    - 8th level: Gains Deathless Vigor.

    Deathleass Vigor: The pale master’s body becomes more akin to the undying flesh of his undead associates. Gains +2 to saves vs. death.

    - 10th level: Undead Graft saving throw at -1.
    - 12th level: Gains Tough as Bone.

    Tough as Bone: The pale master becomes more and more like one of the implacable undead. Immunity to hold, stun and poison.

    - 14th level: Undead Graft saving throw at -2.
    - 15th level: May use Create Skeleton Abomination once per day.

    CREATE SKELETON ABOMINATION: Summons a powerful skeleton abomination to serve the caster for 2 hours.

    - 16th level: The pale master's touch becomes deadly and can instantly kill a target. May use Deathless Master's Touch twice per day.

    DEATHLESS MASTER'S TOUCH: The pale master touches a target with a life-snuffing hand. Target must save vs. death or die instantly.

    - 18th level: Undead Graft saving throw at -3.
    - 20th level: Gains Deathless Mastery.

    Deathless Mastery: The pale masters are practically undead creatures themselves. Immunity to death magic and level drain.

    - Hit Die: d6

    Disadvantages:
    - May cast one fewer spell per level per day.
    - Alignment restricted to non-good.
    - Incurs a -2 penalty to Charisma.
    - Race restricted to human.

    Please tell me what you think or if you find any bugs.

    shawne
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @bfons86: Very interesting! I like the changes, but I'd suggest losing the racial restriction - if Dragon Disciples can be elves and half-elves, it stands to reason the same would hold true for Pale Masters...

    Koson
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,438
    The Pale Master is one of my favorite prestige classes from Libris Mortis. Some ideas to play with:

    - I like the suggestion that was made earlier about adding the "innates" to the sorcerer's list of known spells. Since all of the sorcerer's spells are essentially innate abilities that binds well with what the PM is best known for. Although it does change the "grafting undead parts to yourself" thing a bit.

    - Consider adding a scaled "Color Glow Pulse" effect (opcode 9) to the character's skin and hair colors, with RGB values of 50/50/50 and a cycle speed of 1. It will lighten the character's skin color without "changing it", and give the sense that the character is becoming more undead. You could then, at level 20 or so, change their skin color permanently to a color that looks like bone. Color index 170 works well for this.

    Other than that, I like where it's heading.

    shawnethelovebatAbdel_Adrian
«1345
This discussion has been closed.