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What protects from Stun? [e.g. Celestial Fury stuns you through Free Action]

YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
Okay: so, I just quit my Guarded Compound fight mid-fight, when I realized that Koshi (wielding Celestial Fury :: which has Stun-or-save on every hit) managed to, in fact, stun me, even though I am protected by Free Action (the cleric spell).

Is this a bug? (Using SCS v28)

What protects you from a Stun?

How about the Free Action Ring (don't have one yet) or Arbane (sword) or FoA +5 (much much later) or Greenstone Amulet (don't have that either)?

Or maybe Spell Immunity:Whatever-school-Stun-is?

Chaotic Commands maybe?

JuliusBorisovlolien
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Comments

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    Dang!
    My current install has Tweak Pack + SCS but not Fixpack.
    I kinda assumed that Free Action should protect.

    But this is abysmal: not even the Ring of Free Action will protect?

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    edited September 2014
    It stopped ghoul paralysis, I am surprised they'd bother coding stun vs paralysis, though they are very different come 3rd ed. I was under the impression that the effects were pretty much the same in 2nd ed.

    Edit: maybe I had fixpack installed?

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,033
    Yeah, technically stun is a 'mental' thing like charm or confusion and not really related to body movement, which makes sense I guess but does make the effect kinda stupid. So yeah, mind shields protect from stun but free action doesn't, oddly enough.

    DexterelminsterJuliusBorisovlolien
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,980
    What artemius said, stun is like a mental thing.

    lolienFinneousPJ
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    Huh, so that's why Chaotic Commands works on Mind Flayers. Thought it was just their Psionic Blasts (and Domination, of course), but that doesn't actually make a lot of sense on its own, does it?

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,980

    Huh, so that's why Chaotic Commands works on Mind Flayers. Thought it was just their Psionic Blasts (and Domination, of course), but that doesn't actually make a lot of sense on its own, does it?

    It will protect against their psionic blasts and domination, but there isn't a whole lot the spell could have done against the physical act of sucking out your brain :)

    JuliusBorisovlolien
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Pretty sure Monk's stunning blow is not mental, isnt it pressure point based?

  • YgramulYgramul Member Posts: 1,059
    For a no-reload run, I really would have loved to have an item granting stun-immunity.

    IIRC, there are several demons that stun as well.

    JuliusBorisov
  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    Gulp potion of freedom or cast free action + cast mind blank + turn to wolverine and voila! You're officially a death machine. Tried spell immunity it, all of the schools had no effect ~_~" theres also the idea of shapechanging into stuff like iron golem or/and elementals to counter mind flaying when u up against those asshats, try that too if you want.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,069
    Arbane's Sword sometimes protects against stun, though I don't know if the vanilla or modded version does so. It does in my current install, but I'm not sure what, if any, mods are responsible.

    Mazzy's sword also protects against stun. Usable by halflings, not just Mazzy, though this might not apply for BG2:EE.

    Using troll form, whether from the Cloak of the Sewers or Shapechange, also protects against stun, as long as the troll fist weapon doesn't get dispelled. That's 20 potential rounds of immunity.

    And the Slayer is also immune to stun.

    @Urthemiel: Iron Golem form is not immune to stun. It gets 100% resistance to magic, but Psionic Blast bypasses MR. Elemental forms don't work either. Potion of Freedom should work, though.

    lolien
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Yes, Mazzy's Sword of Arvoreen +2 grants immunity to stun. The BG2ee description maintains the original behaviour that other halflings can also use it, although I haven't yet tested that, and a Thief or Bard ought to be able to use it under UAI.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    The enhanced bard song gives immunity to stun. I am pretty sure they fixed the shapeshift weapons to prevent dispelling.

    semiticgodelminsterlolienJuliusBorisov
  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2015
    @semiticgod
    You didn't get what i meant, i did not mean to counter stun with golem or elemental forms i meant to use those to counter mind flaying since technically golems and elementals don't have brains to eat making you immune to the nastiest thing in the entire game, hence we can just gulp a potion of freedom + whatever else buffs u want then turn golem and go squash some illithids - win! :P
    You probably wont even need your party can solo stuff since u can turn to wolverine any time to heal up instantly :> Shapechanger is badass.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    @Urthemiel Actually, those shapes aren't immune to the illithid intelligence drain. The one and only thing in the whole game you have access to that is immune to intelligence drain is mordenkainen swords.

    elminster
  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    Really? damn thats weird how can you eat some things brain if it has none? LOL Dev logic <3

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,069
    @Urthemial: You don't actually get all of the traits of the forms you take. Shapechange and polymorph don't work like that in BG2. Rather, you get the critter's base resistances, APR, and physical stats (STR, DEX, and CON), as well as a magical weapon that MIGHT give you some of the critter's abilities, such as regeneration for trolls and greater wolfweres. And Mind Flayer form gives you one casting of Psionic Blast, though you can get more by shapechanging into Mind Flayer form again. Otherwise, that's it. Besides, Iron Golems aren't actually immune to Mind Flayer attacks, so even if Shapechange gave you all of an Iron Golem's abilities (which it does not), it still wouldn't keep the illithids away.

    Mind Flayers kill using INT drain, which uses opcode 19, the intelligence modifier, just like Potions of Genius and Potions of Mind Focusing. No shapeshift in vanilla BG2 gives you immunity to opcode 19, so no, that will not protect you from Mind Flayers at all, unless the shapeshift improves your AC.

    In fact, nothing can give the player immunity to opcode 19 in vanilla BG2, so there is NO WAY to prevent the mind flayers from eating your brains unless you either (1) don't get hit, or (2) cast Protection from Magical Weapons, Mantle, Improved Mantle, or Absolute Immunity, since the Mind Flayer attack strikes as a +2 weapon. You could also try drinking Potions of Genius or Mind Focus to temporarily boost your INT, but that's not a guarantee of survival.

    Iron Golem form won't stop the illithids from stunning you OR eating your brains. That's not how shapeshifting works in BG2, unfortunately.

    Tressetlolienelminster
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    Urthemiel said:

    Really? damn thats weird how can you eat some things brain if it has none? LOL Dev logic <3</p>

    Not so much "dev logic" as "engine limitation". It is exactly as semiticgod says.

    semiticgod
  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2015
    @semiticgod
    "MIGHT give you some of the critter's abilities, such as regeneration for trolls and greater wolfweres"

    That can't be right, i ALWAYS get insane regen on wolvie and ALWAYS get wolvies weapon immunity as well making me pretty much unkillable :>

    "And Mind Flayer form gives you one casting of Psionic Blast, though you can get more by shapechanging into Mind Flayer form again."

    Yeah that one is no brainer, mind flayer is pretty op too if used right.
    Killing bosses on MF is just too easy, blast them and then it's dinner time! xD

    "Mind Flayers kill using INT drain"

    Wait... does that mean that if i get buff or item that prevents stat drain i can counter this? p_p
    (or wait.. didn't i try that already in BG2 hrm... can't quite recall)

    " since the Mind Flayer attack strikes as a +2 weapon"
    If that is correct then wolvie may work since wolvie i think got immunity against all non silver weapons or something like that, not sure what kinds of weapons wolvie immune to.

  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2015
    @Tresset
    "Not so much "dev logic" as "engine limitation"."
    And who do you think made that engine? users? your drandpa? xD

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,069
    @Urthemiel: Yes, the trolls and greater wolfwere forms do get regeneration (1 HP/sec and 8 HP/sec, respectively). My "MIGHT" was referring to some other abilities that the critters would have, but which shapeshifting might not give you. Trolls get a lot more immunities than a player does in troll form, for one thing, and Iron Golems get 75% physical damage resistance, while the player gets 20%. The former is due to a difference of items: trolls get most of their immunities and such from a special, undroppable ring, not from the troll attack weapon you get when shapeshifting. The latter is due to balance: 75% physical damage resistance and immunity to magic would make the caster almost unkillable.

    I'm afraid the wolfwere form only makes you immune to +1 weapons and less. But against most critters, they will be nearly unkillable, since they regenerate 48 HP per round, which you can double by casting Improved Haste on the shapeshifter.

    As for the engine limitation... the engine isn't really the reason why you can't get immunity to INT drain in Iron Golem form. The real reason is that they didn't add immunity to INT drain to the relevant files, which makes sense, since you don't get access to Shapechange until after you've seen all the Mind Flayers in SoA. Unless you import a character, or select the Limited Wish option that gives you Shapechange. Why make Iron Golems immune to INT drain if the two are never going to end up fighting each other?

    You can always add immunity to opcode 19 to the Iron Golem's weapon (GOLIRO.itm), if you want to be immune to INT drain. Near Infinity will let you do that. There are mods to add INT drain immunity to skeleton summons, but you'll have to do your own modding to make your characters immune.

  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2015
    "Yes, the trolls and greater wolfwere forms do get regeneration (1 HP/sec and 8 HP/sec, respectively). My "MIGHT" was referring to some other abilities that the critters would have, but which shapeshifting might not give you. Trolls get a lot more immunities than a player does in troll form, for one thing, and Iron Golems get 75% physical damage resistance, while the player gets 20%. The former is due to a difference of items: trolls get most of their immunities and such from a special, undroppable ring, not from the troll attack weapon you get when shapeshifting. The latter is due to balance: 75% physical damage resistance and immunity to magic would make the caster almost unkillable."

    And yet we can get anti magic dps cloak in bg2, funny huh.
    But yeah, educational observations. ^^)

    "I'm afraid the wolfwere form only makes you immune to +1 weapons and less. But against most critters, they will be nearly unkillable, since they regenerate 48 HP per round, which you can double by casting Improved Haste on the shapeshifter."

    Cool tip, thanks, i was thinking of trying speeding wolvie form even more but was kinda fast enough anyways so i didn't bother. xD

    "Why make Iron Golems immune to INT drain if the two are never going to end up fighting each other?"

    And so, once again the gamer turn out to be way more sly than the dev huh, huhu~

    "You can always add immunity to opcode 19 to the Iron Golem's weapon (GOLIRO.itm), if you want to be immune to INT drain. Near Infinity will let you do that. There are mods to add INT drain immunity to skeleton summons, but you'll have to do your own modding to make your characters immune."

    I usually either summon spam them or.... summon a dark planetar when i get pissed off enough buff him haste and control immunity buffs and gg ~_~

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,069
    @Urthemiel: I've been playing no-reload a lot lately, and my main strategy for Mind Flayers is to never even fight them at all, ever.

    lolienBlackravenmonico
  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2015

    @Urthemiel: I've been playing no-reload a lot lately, and my main strategy for Mind Flayers is to never even fight them at all, ever.

    Haha yeah that works too but i somehow always stumble into a pack or two maybe i should grab that wizard eye spell next time so i can scout ahead lol
    Or maybe just buff invisibility and go full ninja on em.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    edited February 2015
    Tresset said:

    Urthemiel said:

    Really? damn thats weird how can you eat some things brain if it has none? LOL Dev logic <3</p>

    Not so much "dev logic" as "engine limitation". It is exactly as semiticgod says.
    There's no engine limitation preventing effects that make the player immune to illithid attacks. It is in fact dev logic. Or dev laziness.

    The various ways stun and hold and paralysis effects are handled are very inconsistent as well. Hold is being frozen in place for an extended time by a magical force. Paralysis should theoretically drop you to the floor, but the game treats it like Hold instead. Stun is a mental effect and should be very brief - maybe half a round or a round (I see items and effects that "stun" for 5+ rounds, they are pure cheese, just a cheaty way to circumvent Free Action).

    I believe Spell Revisions and Item Revisions address some of this stuff (making skeletal undead and brainless shapeshift forms immune to illithid attacks)... but unfortunately no modder has gone into the game and made a comprehensive fix.

    And don't get me started on poison and disease effects!

    lolien
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I'm pretty sure Hold effects are also mental. How's that different from stun? Well, one of them involves a magical force hijacking (presumably) your spinal column, and the other is more along the lines of pure sensory overload, like a flashbang going off. Of course, people who've been flashbanged don't tend to stand perfectly still in one place, as I understand it, so there are some problems with the way it's implemented.

    Actually, it'd be pretty cool if every stun effect in the game was replaced by blind + deaf + confused. That'd be kind of awesome.

    lolien
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,460
    Well, I think "Hold" is supposed to be a physical magical force preventing your limbs from moving. Like you are literally bring "held." But then again it's magic, so it's open to interpretation. The important point is that it can last as long as the magic can last.

    For stun, the reaction to a flashbang is a great description. A perfectly natural, biological, and very temporary effect. You could even argue that it should bypass MR, but that might be a different discussion (e.g. there are good arguments why spells like Fireball and Cloudkill should bypass MR too).

    Blindness + Deafness + Confusion is actually a great idea for substitution. In fact my Cantrip spell for the Enchantment school ("Befuddle") is meant to confuse the target for ~1 round... but after testing, I switched it to use the Stun opcode since it better represents someone being befuddled for 6 seconds.

    There was some similar discussion in the SR forum about how to change Charm Person, which is not really supposed to force someone to fight against their own allies (that's an effect of Dire Charm and Domination only). Something like adding Blindness + setting movement to 0 for the charmed creature would make them enemies, but stop them from attacking their former allies.

    It's interesting to think about how these effects can be made more sophisticated. Like the new Slep behavior, where you get woken up if attacked. I think that's better for Sleep; but Paralysis should make you fall down as if asleep, but *not* get up when attacked.

    Blackravenlolien
  • UrthemielUrthemiel Member Posts: 13
    edited February 2015
    @subtledoctor
    "For stun, the reaction to a flashbang is a great description."

    Actually there are some "crawly flashbangs" in Icewind Dale if you look hard enough, they crawl to you in force and the effect when they try to gang-stun you is very similar to a flashbang. (even the sound lol)
    ---------------

    I want a completely new game that works on the principles of icewind dale + BG2 but with improvements to mechanics. And of course with awesome story like in bg2
    RPG's of today still don't hold a candle to the real stuff at all, the only thing that somewhat gets close is Shadowrun Returns.
    Sigh~ hopefully eventually they will start pumping rpgs based on D&D system since nothing really beats it.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    edited February 2015

    Well, I think "Hold" is supposed to be a physical magical force preventing your limbs from moving. Like you are literally bring "held." But then again it's magic, so it's open to interpretation. The important point is that it can last as long as the magic can last.

    I can't find a truly definitive answer to this, and it's not something I'm terribly interested in arguing over, but for the sake of completeness I'll note a couple points of evidence. First, Hold spells are in the Enchantment school, the Charm subschool, and the Charm sphere, which are all typically associated with mental effects. Physical magical forces (notably Wall of Force) are more typically associated with the Evocation school. That said, Conjuration, Abjuration, and Alteration have all been known to create such force effects, so we can't entirely rule out the idea that Enchantment would do so as well (although it seems like the less natural explanation to me, given the school's typical domain).

    Second, later editions of D&D state quite unambiguously that Hold spells operate by means of mental compulsion, rather than physical force. In the absence of contrary evidence, this suggests (but by no means proves) that Hold has always functioned on a mental level.

    EDIT: Oh, I just remembered. About the duration of stuns. I've never seen a flashbang in real life, nor its aftereffects, but my understanding from secondhand sources is that they are far less temporary than most video games would suggest.

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