I honestly don't understand the beef you seem to have with Monks in the Realms having a sex life. Danica from the Cleric's Quintet married and had children.
And lets not forget that Clerics in the Realms aren't chaste either. I think Sunites even have their own glorified brothels.
I pass the baton to any that want it, I've used every rational argument in the world, but some people will argue into the grave, and I've got a life to waste on fun things.
Also if you didnt read it,i f there is a faerun monk tradition which would allow gay sex,,than it would not be without sense ,provided it is mentioned which during the game.
About Clerics it would be dependent on the deity. Lliira for example seems to approve it.
They do not need to behave exactly like. But I think it should be treated more or less like (because it is a reference taken from reality) . For example, he could mention which faerun tradition he is part in the game. That would be suitable to the game because it is exactly like the religions in real life are;. Some are more liberal others more conservative. I think the same goes for faerun. Some deities are portayed on purpose as being more conservative (like tyr) while others as more liberal (like liira). That is fair and the same must go for monk traditions.
I think that what my last post (the one directed to you ,not to communard) is more or less enough to let our discussion die (but obviously not the whole topic).
Also do not take "monks" of the equation, as probably not all faerun monk traditions would be fine with that, right?
No mention of bisexual monks in the order. Nor does there need to be. Rasaad didn't choose to become bisexual, like he chose to become a monk. He simply is.* He does not need to reflect your perception of how reality should influence a fantasy setting.
If you want to discuss the impact of history on myth and legend, I suggest you create a separate thread for that. Getting off topic in this one.
*We are, of course, still assuming that Rasaad is the bisexual NPC, and two, that the Order of the Sun Soul was indeed incorporated into his backstory.
Ahaha,it is cool because they just mixed dragons with other things.
Dinosaurs (and other reptiles) + birds + human intelligence + Fire = Tolkien/d&d dragons
You forgot mixing with mythical magic, but yes, everything you say is true.
Now what I want to know is: why does that prove your point? A lot of fantasy tropes are made by mashing a lot of random stuff together, how does that prove that D&D monks must be similar in outlook to a specific type of real-world monk?
Let's take a look at the description of the 3rd edition monk class (that is the basis of the monk in Baldur's Gate): Dotted across the landscape are monasteries—small, walled cloisters inhabited by monks who pursue personal perfection through action as well as contemplation. They train themselves to be versatile warriors skilled at fighting without weapons or armor. The inhabitants of monasteries headed by good masters serve as protectors of the people. Ready for battle even when barefoot and dressed in peasant clothes, monks can travel unnoticed among the populace, catching bandits, warlords, and corrupt nobles unawares. In contrast, the residents of monasteries headed by evil masters rule the surrounding lands through fear, as an evil warlord and his entourage might. Evil monks make ideal spies, infiltrators, and assassins. The individual monk is unlikely to care passionately about championing commoners or amassing wealth. She cares primarily for the perfection of her art and, thereby, her personal perfection. Her goal is to achieve a state that is beyond the mortal realm.
It becomes apparent that: Cloistered monestary + self-perfection + adherence to a personal code (D&D Lawful) = D&D monk. It most closely resembles Shaolin monasteries, but even then you kinda have to squint. There's no Buddhism and D&D isn't set in medieval China. In D&D, a monk is defined as someone who belongs to a cloistered order that teaches a specific philosophy of self-perfection. No more and no less. That's why you can be an evil monk.
Tolkien, like the Forgotten realms contributors, borrowed most of his material from elsewhere (as I am sure most already know), just look at Beowulf for a flying dragon that breathes fire. Or Volsunga Saga's Fafnir for sentience.
I must confess that i didn't read every single new post for for some hours, and i can't see a pandemonium like this and miss the chance to spread more chaos, no? XD. I'm kidding, just gonna try to put some consense in this matter.
@Scypher1on the begin of this thread, i partly agreed with you about monks in your core idea of them, but not with your explanation, but as the debate developed, i changed a little my view.
Monks aren't necessary religious or forbidden to have sex, they're a group of persons that normally tend to focus the internal progress of their body and mind as one, their main objective from what i learned in D&D is to master body and mind. If we have to compare them with our word, they're pretty much a martial artist submited to heavy rules from their monastic order from my view.
I had the same issue as you, but i accepted, in reason to some posts here, that based in which monastic order rasaad comes, a gay romance will maybe not be a contradiction (just hope that his monastic order don't have problems with this issue).
@TenYaiba, i read some posts that you wrote, and just asking, you classify ninjas as fallen samurais? Cos that's pretty wrong (huge wrong in fact). But maybe it's just my misunderstand of your wors.
@scypher1: The bottom line here is that you're insisting on a correlation where none exists. D&D is not set in our world, and is therefore not bound by any historical or cultural truths that apply to our world. Inspiration is not the same as translation, and the monks of Faerun are not required to act at all like monks in our world.
There is no paradox in the representation of a D&D monk who is bisexual, and who acts accordingly - that you find this distasteful speaks more to your own prejudices than to any fault in the game or its approach to the subject matter. Your claims that you "don't care" are patently false, since you've spent your time on this thread defending your belief that the possibility of Rasaad being bisexual is "disgusting" to you.
I don't expect any of this to get through to you, so this is my last word on the matter: if all you have to offer this discussion is the same old tired rhetoric of how you're grossed out by what two men may or may not be doing together, you're not going to find a receptive audience here. It may be best for you to move on.
@EpitomyOfShyness - Off topic, you have the same handle as someone I talked to at a Wheel of Time signing in Half Moon Bay a couple years ago. Are you the same person?
Gonna try Neera's first, though my main playthrough is likely to be chaste >.> No reason...
@kamuizin I said Fallen Warriors, though I also said bandits rogues and murderers. Some were samurai who lost their lords and were stripped of everything, but that wasn't always the case. If you'd like we can discuss this over PM since it's not really relating to romance.
As i said before dozen of times, it is not the existence of same sex romance that is wrong,but the way it is made here. Hell,i wouldnt bother if rasaad was a warrior,thief, mage or whatever.
It makes sense to a conservative player to dislike a game that takes side with libertarian views and apply even to orders and classes who are tipically meant to be INDIRECT REFERENCES to reality. As people said before, players "enter" the game, they throw their views and themselves in the gaming world. It is not acceptable either if the game take a conservative sideor follow a libertarian way.
An example is of how original bg1 excluded same sex romance, that is taking the conservative side. In the same way portraying all religious orders as accepting of libertarian views is also wrong. Wrong because it does not include all gamers and different points of view. If a conservative religious player creates a character and discovers that monks, paladins or whatever are all endorsing homosexuality,that is bound to cause dissapointment,because he will feel religious classes to be mis-represented in comparison and also think that there is no representation of his beliefs. In the same way if there was a female character which was a (celibate) paladin nun,and your male character convinces her to break her vows,that would also be wrong. It is not wrong to have limits,be you straight or lgbt.
The game should not take any of these sides,but stay on the middle of them, respecting all views.
Do not exlude any kind of pov or demography of players. That counts regarding not only lgbt people,bu also people who think differently. That i think is fair. Make 2 ,3 or 4 same sex romances ,but do it in with some respect to people who do not share your ideas, ok?
If rasaad will imminently be the bi character,it would be fine to at least mention that is not common for some orders of monks to endorse homosexuality. That would be realist because it would point a divergence of ideas ,just like it is in reality ,where some people are conservative and other liberals.
All unanymities are stupid ,be a conservative one or liberal one. Shoving a single idea in the game is never good.
@scypher1 Look at it this way. A monk in D&D is a person skilled in martial combat and that seeks to perfect his/her body and skills.
The Order of the Sun Soul, as well as most other monk orders do not state anything about forcing someone to be chaste or forcing them to be with one certain gender. There are both male and female monks as well if you haven't figured that out yet.
The only groups that I could find that even mentions vows of chastity are the clerics and monks of Ilmater, and the Beloved of Lurue.
Comments
I honestly don't understand the beef you seem to have with Monks in the Realms having a sex life. Danica from the Cleric's Quintet married and had children.
And lets not forget that Clerics in the Realms aren't chaste either. I think Sunites even have their own glorified brothels.
I pass the baton to any that want it, I've used every rational argument in the world, but some people will argue into the grave, and I've got a life to waste on fun things.
as i said before,not all monks are chaste.
Also if you didnt read it,i f there is a faerun monk tradition which would allow gay sex,,than it would not be without sense ,provided it is mentioned which during the game.
About Clerics it would be dependent on the deity. Lliira for example seems to approve it.
drow= dark elves
elves= idealized tolkien humans
magic=unexplained science ( thunders,fire...)
Our universe is limited.
They do not need to behave exactly like. But I think it should be treated more or less like (because it is a reference taken from reality) . For example, he could mention which faerun tradition he is part in the game. That would be suitable to the game because it is exactly like the religions in real life are;. Some are more liberal others more conservative. I think the same goes for faerun. Some deities are portayed on purpose as being more conservative (like tyr) while others as more liberal (like liira). That is fair and the same must go for monk traditions.
Ahaha,it is cool because they just mixed dragons with other things.
Dinosaurs (and other reptiles) + birds + human intelligence + Fire = Tolkien/d&d dragons
I think that what my last post (the one directed to you ,not to communard) is more or less enough to let our discussion die (but obviously not the whole topic).
Also do not take "monks" of the equation, as probably not all faerun monk traditions would be fine with that, right?
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Order_of_the_Sun_Soul
No mention of bisexual monks in the order. Nor does there need to be. Rasaad didn't choose to become bisexual, like he chose to become a monk. He simply is.* He does not need to reflect your perception of how reality should influence a fantasy setting.
If you want to discuss the impact of history on myth and legend, I suggest you create a separate thread for that. Getting off topic in this one.
*We are, of course, still assuming that Rasaad is the bisexual NPC, and two, that the Order of the Sun Soul was indeed incorporated into his backstory.
Now what I want to know is: why does that prove your point? A lot of fantasy tropes are made by mashing a lot of random stuff together, how does that prove that D&D monks must be similar in outlook to a specific type of real-world monk?
Let's take a look at the description of the 3rd edition monk class (that is the basis of the monk in Baldur's Gate):
Dotted across the landscape are monasteries—small, walled cloisters
inhabited by monks who pursue personal perfection through action
as well as contemplation. They train themselves to be versatile
warriors skilled at fighting without weapons or armor. The
inhabitants of monasteries headed by good masters serve as
protectors of the people. Ready for battle even when barefoot and
dressed in peasant clothes, monks can travel unnoticed among the
populace, catching bandits, warlords, and corrupt nobles unawares.
In contrast, the residents of monasteries headed by evil masters rule
the surrounding lands through fear, as an evil warlord and his
entourage might. Evil monks make ideal spies, infiltrators, and
assassins.
The individual monk is unlikely to care passionately about
championing commoners or amassing wealth. She cares primarily
for the perfection of her art and, thereby, her personal perfection.
Her goal is to achieve a state that is beyond the mortal realm.
It becomes apparent that:
Cloistered monestary + self-perfection + adherence to a personal code (D&D Lawful) = D&D monk.
It most closely resembles Shaolin monasteries, but even then you kinda have to squint. There's no Buddhism and D&D isn't set in medieval China. In D&D, a monk is defined as someone who belongs to a cloistered order that teaches a specific philosophy of self-perfection. No more and no less. That's why you can be an evil monk.
just a note: monks make an oath before joining an order. If he behaves in a bisexual way with the order consent,than it allows.
JK I get what you mean.
Next topic on the agenda? Make all the mean people stop picking on poor beautiful Aerie...
What? I don't have the forum minutes? CURSES! Foiled again!
Given the new NPCs, who are you romancing first? And without knowing any kind of restrictions, what sort of character are you planning to create?
Second play is for Dorn: Female (race undecided) Druid. (TN on paper...NE in practice.)
I've never done the mage or druid stronghold quests, so classes were chosen for that option.
Anyways, I plan on making a Female Half-Elf Sorcerer Chaotic Good and having her fall for Dorn. Possibly Chaotic Neutral. But probably not.
@Scypher1on the begin of this thread, i partly agreed with you about monks in your core idea of them, but not with your explanation, but as the debate developed, i changed a little my view.
Monks aren't necessary religious or forbidden to have sex, they're a group of persons that normally tend to focus the internal progress of their body and mind as one, their main objective from what i learned in D&D is to master body and mind. If we have to compare them with our word, they're pretty much a martial artist submited to heavy rules from their monastic order from my view.
I had the same issue as you, but i accepted, in reason to some posts here, that based in which monastic order rasaad comes, a gay romance will maybe not be a contradiction (just hope that his monastic order don't have problems with this issue).
@TenYaiba, i read some posts that you wrote, and just asking, you classify ninjas as fallen samurais? Cos that's pretty wrong (huge wrong in fact). But maybe it's just my misunderstand of your wors.
There is no paradox in the representation of a D&D monk who is bisexual, and who acts accordingly - that you find this distasteful speaks more to your own prejudices than to any fault in the game or its approach to the subject matter. Your claims that you "don't care" are patently false, since you've spent your time on this thread defending your belief that the possibility of Rasaad being bisexual is "disgusting" to you.
I don't expect any of this to get through to you, so this is my last word on the matter: if all you have to offer this discussion is the same old tired rhetoric of how you're grossed out by what two men may or may not be doing together, you're not going to find a receptive audience here. It may be best for you to move on.
@kamuizin I said Fallen Warriors, though I also said bandits rogues and murderers. Some were samurai who lost their lords and were stripped of everything, but that wasn't always the case. If you'd like we can discuss this over PM since it's not really relating to romance.
As i said before dozen of times, it is not the existence of same sex romance that is wrong,but the way it is made here. Hell,i wouldnt bother if rasaad was a warrior,thief, mage or whatever.
It makes sense to a conservative player to dislike a game that takes side with libertarian views and apply even to orders and classes who are tipically meant to be INDIRECT REFERENCES to reality. As people said before, players "enter" the game, they throw their views and themselves in the gaming world. It is not acceptable either if the game take a conservative sideor follow a libertarian way.
An example is of how original bg1 excluded same sex romance, that is taking the conservative side. In the same way portraying all religious orders as accepting of libertarian views is also wrong. Wrong because it does not include all gamers and different points of view. If a conservative religious player creates a character and discovers that monks, paladins or whatever are all endorsing homosexuality,that is bound to cause dissapointment,because he will feel religious classes to be mis-represented in comparison and also think that there is no representation of his beliefs. In the same way if there was a female character which was a (celibate) paladin nun,and your male character convinces her to break her vows,that would also be wrong.
It is not wrong to have limits,be you straight or lgbt.
The game should not take any of these sides,but stay on the middle of them, respecting all views.
Do not exlude any kind of pov or demography of players. That counts regarding not only lgbt people,bu also people who think differently. That i think is fair.
Make 2 ,3 or 4 same sex romances ,but do it in with some respect to people who do not share your ideas, ok?
If rasaad will imminently be the bi character,it would be fine to at least mention that is not common for some orders of monks to endorse homosexuality. That would be realist because it would point a divergence of ideas ,just like it is in reality ,where some people are conservative and other liberals.
All unanymities are stupid ,be a conservative one or liberal one. Shoving a single idea in the game is never good.
The Order of the Sun Soul, as well as most other monk orders do not state anything about forcing someone to be chaste or forcing them to be with one certain gender. There are both male and female monks as well if you haven't figured that out yet.
The only groups that I could find that even mentions vows of chastity are the clerics and monks of Ilmater, and the Beloved of Lurue.