I understand your point. And I apologize for my confrontational tone, I'm just used to having to jump in as Captain Babyfeelings and show up with the big understanding stick.
No prob, I getcha. Most of it wasn't that confrontational anyway. I've had to sift through much worse in my internet time, once again I think it was all pretty good except the last two sentences but even they weren't all that bad, really.
Honestly, you're one of people who I generally respect on the other side of this argument, and I was dismayed at the statement you made due to it's context and severity.
Well, thank you for that. I'd have to say the same for you.
The main problem with these kind of requests is that they attract controversy, and that controversy leads to both extreme ends of the argument to polarize the participants, into "People that agree with me" and "people that are jerks." So we all get a little defensive about the points we're trying to make. People that are in the middle that are just trying to state their opinions are targeted and shuttled off to the extremist camp in people's minds, and thus argued with as such. I dropped the ball on that one and I must apologize.
Again, it's no problem, and I apologize for my ... rather blunt vaguely humorous statement. I have an issue in wanting to assert my opinion everywhere, and sometimes I get so tired of trying to make my point that I just start facepalming everywhere instead of hiding my loathing for hypocrisy. Kind of an issue on my part (wanting to assert my opinion everywhere).
The road is indeed two way, but unless someone extends their hand as a reasonable human being, we'll all just stay in our trenches firing blind shots at each other.
Hah, well said. I'm afraid I don't fit the "reasonable human being" part in this case. While I do support true equality, and for the most part believe I should completely stay out of the affairs of homosexuals (what say should I have in the manner, truly? none), I get very, very sick of being agenda-pushed. From either side.
Care to join our conversation? Perhaps you have a romance related request for the Devs?
I wanted another evil romance because they tend to be more interesting. Dorn is the answer, so I'm happy. I really hope there will actually be depth to it (a la Viconia) instead of just ... sex appeal, I suppose is the word. I think it's really stupid/silly that males can only romance elves and half-elves, but it doesn't really irk me enough for me to complain about it. I mean, it's silly, but it's not the end of the world, you know
@Quartz I empathize with what you're saying about feeling targeted, but I don't think Jalily meant it that way. I know from personal experience that I have a habit of using words that can come across as aggressive without meaning to. It's an emotionally charged issue and I know I get riled up about it. Also you are right about those last 2 sentences of TenYaiba's last post, and I want to applaud the fact that you have remained so civil and calm. It's really nice to have an honest civil discussion.
Thanks, and I thank God that this forum has some form of sanity about it. Maybe the older user base, or something. Who knows. Anyway, this place doesn't sound anything like the rest of the (stereotypical, but sadly accurate) internet. You know, average male liberal atheist age 16-25 a la Reddit (not to hate on such individuals, I'm just pointing out that trend). I quite like how the real world has many type of individuals, instead of just that and nothing else. This particular forum mirrors real life quite a bit better, I must say. People are I guess more honest on here and less rampant. Thank you for being a contributor to that.
So in summary, none of this is the fault of the men who play. However game companies usually cater to Straight Male Players more than anyone else.
Something about the way you worded this made me realize something. Something probably kind of obvious, but:
It's because most of the player base is straight male. Developers want to cater to their playerbase as much as they can. They are completely entitled to do that, and they *should.*
HOWEVER. In the situation you mention it is very unfair. Because we are not talking about something that can only cater to one or the other of this and that, we are talking about completely separate scenarios and characters, *chosen by the player.* In the case you mention it is a matter of they devoted less workpower to construct a game that could satisfy a female player as much. This is where I think it becomes an issue, I like your point.
In short, I understand that a developer wants to focus most of their workpower on their targeted demographic, but it really should be attempted to make a more satisfying gameplay experience for as many demographics as possible in the long run.
Coming from a guy here, I felt really bad for the women who romanced Jacob in Mass Effect and saw how that all played out in the 3rd game. I couldn't help but think it was a blatant oversight and one that wouldn't have happened to the female NPCs. Although Mass Effect fans are already kinda pissed, Id hate to see what the fan-rage would have been like if Tali or Liara showed up in the 3rd game, pointed to her new boyfriend and were like "yea, i kinda forgot you existed for awhile. Still wanna defend us from Cerberus?"
At least BGEE seems to be trying to build more of an equilibrium with giving romance options for female characters. Which I guess says something about how gaming culture has changed these 14 years.
In fact, on ME3, female shepards are very well provided as you can see below.
There is:
ME1
Liara T'soni lesbian romance as the entire Asari race is bissexual (pretty good to me to put things even, no?). Kaidan Alenko female possible romance (and he's bi, so he's both female romance option as gay male romance option if i'm not wrong).
ME2
Jacob Taylor human straigh romance Thane Krios straight alien romance Garrus Vakarian straight alien romance Samara/morinth Bissexual alien romance Kelly chambers bissexual human romance (it's the psychologist of normandy 2)
ME3
Diana Allers Bissexual woman reporter Samantha Traynor Lesbian woman romance (unfortunally, pretty girl but i only played male shepards in ME3). Garrus (if started romance in ME2) Liara T'soni (if started romance in ME and stay faithful in ME2 or have a very good excuse Kaidan (if started in ME and keep faithful in ME2 or have a good excuse at least) Kelly chambers (if started in ME2)
-Snip- In short, I understand that a developer wants to focus most of their workpower on their targeted demographic, but it really should be attempted to make a more satisfying gameplay experience for as many demographics as possible in the long run.
@Quartz And here is why we're requesting it here, where the developers are making something to cater to us directly, rather than to our wallets. They asked us what we want and we're letting them know.
I've always thought the Evil CHARNAMES get kind of shafted, even though I've never experienced it myself. It always seems they're forced into actions against their alignment for progress/maximum reward. And they only get Viconia, if they really want to roleplay their Evilitude.
@Kamuzin Mu... people keep saying Liara is "Bisexual" But Asari have one gender... they resemble females of the human species... but they're not actually female. Furthermore you have to be a xenophile (If somehow this term incites anger I'm sorry, I don't mean it offensively...) to get something that's almost female. It seems like A BIG stretch, in my mind. And I'm pretty sure Kaiden Was NOT bi, correct me if I'm wrong, please. Yep, checked the Wiki, Kaiden for Female Shep only.
Weeeeeell, if they decide to add homosexual romances, it's only fair they do it correctly. I don't think one bi NPC is a fair approach.
So if i was in their place, i would do one of two things.
1) Put 2 male and 2 female npcs for hire and make them all bi. Yeah, lame i know, since making characters bi doesn't put that much character into them or gives them an identity but whatever, at least you have a choice now.
2) 1 straight male, 1 straight female, 1 gay male, 1 gay female. Less options for everyone, more character since well, you actually have to distinguish the approach of each romance, but hey, it's not the bold and the beautiful, we don't need 10 romance options. And romances should be engaging stories, not just some banter, like, oh now we know about each other, so let's go to bed at banter #12. Actually the more i think about it, the original romances were actually pretty ok, especially Viconia's.
And please put away the race restrictions, unless it's part of the character, like Viconia and elves.
As for me, i rarely pursue the romances but whatever. You can't be a badass and want to romance as well right? Badasses have to hide and suppress their feelings right?? Emotions are the bane of every warrior RIGHT??? Eh??
@TenYaiba Liara is bisexual from a human perspective. Presumably, asari just don't think that way. (Could you imagine how confused the first asari to make first contact with a binary-sex species were?) And Kaidan was bi in ME3 but not ME1/2.
Also, the demographic is not nearly as straight-male-heavy as you might think. The latest surveys showed that over 40% of gamers are female. Now, what you get when you restrict to players of WRPGs I have no idea. However, I would also suggest that at least some of the "developers make games for straight men because that's who plays their games" has the causality backward, and that kind of thinking is a vicious cycle I would like to break out of.
It's not appropriate at all that I feel constantly targeted by her presence. You can tell me "well that's a personal problem" but seriously every once in a while she just takes a shot at straight males, literally JUST FOR BEING STRAIGHT MALES and it's obscenely obnoxious. (Is it my fault that games are the way they are? No!)
Wait wait, when did I say anything like that? If I've done that anywhere, I sincerely apologize as that was not my intention at all. I've never believed that it's wrong for straight men to be attracted to women - after all, I'm attracted to women myself - or to want to play a game as a straight man because you happen to be one - after all, I want to do a similar thing, just with my own demographic. In fact, in the Female-Female romance thread, I argued that doing such a romance "right" does NOT mean going out of your way to prevent straight men who want to play that way from enjoying it - because we should ALL enjoy ourselves!
Reading your latest posts, we agree on this basic point. Why are we arguing? I know I would not have lasted long on this forum if there weren't other straight men like you, other posters, and developers themselves who also think everyone should get more options. My problem is with industry trends as a whole and specifically those people who see no problem with keeping it the same. I often try to explain where I'm coming from by putting them in my shoes and reversing the situation hypothetically. Never to say they should be "brought down" (what would that even accomplish?), but to show them why other people want the same treatment they enjoy.
It works the other way around too; when left-handed people say right-handed people can take all sorts of things for granted, I don't feel attacked because it's not a negative character judgment, just...true because of the economics of catering to a majority. And if they never brought it up, most control scheme designers would forget they existed...
But I get the impression @TenYaiba and @EpitomyofShyness also feel I'm being too hostile. Could any of you point out where I've attacked straight men? I don't want anything like this to happen again.
@Mornmagor Yes. More content. This is what we're asking for. And yes, Quality matters. The BG Romances were a step above most of what's written in modern games.
@SerTabris, I was stating that the developers cater to the straight male demographic more than others. I agree with you that the demographic is expanding and I'm delighted by it. It's just Companies can be rather slow sometimes to cater to new demographics in an acceptable manner. That's why we're asking for features to be catered to these new demographics. This company has expressed interest in what we want. We are telling them with these conversations.
@Jalily Oh goodness no! I'm so sorry, see there I go wording things poorly! >_<
I meant that I could see how your words might have been misinterpreted. I didn't for a second think you were attacking someone, but I've seen people misinterpret things before, so that's what I meant. Sorry!
Anyways back on subject, if I had to request additional romances I would want them to add a female-female romance since so far there is not a single one in the entire BG series (that is not a mod). Furthermore I agree, we need more evil characters (who we can romance) . I personally look forward to my naive little goody-two-shoes falling for a certain Blackguard (Doooooorrrrnn).
P.S. You guys rock. This thread is so civil, I love it.
@Jaily you're not being too hostile. You're expressing yourself aggressively. We all need to take a step back and speak like gentlepeople to prevent yelling. The misinterpretation of your passion as hostility is something anyone on the other side of the argument will do, just as We sometimes misinterpret aggressive opinionation of others as hostility.
No one here is the enemy, We only rarely have those REAL jerks who come in calling names and doing real disruption. @Quartz jumped to a conclusion about your passion, and I jumped to a conclusion about his statement and it turned into a hot mess. Now we're cleaning it up to try and get back on track. I enjoy your expression, @Jaily , to be honest, Your passion about wanting fair treatment is something you're not only entitled to but express in a good manner.
It's not that I feel you're being hostile, You're just fiery and passionate, and people that you argue with often see that as you being angry and overbearing, a simple misunderstanding as @Quartz mentioned after my explanation.
@Jaily you're not being too hostile. You're expressing yourself aggressively. We all need to take a step back and speak like gentlepeople to prevent yelling. The misinterpretation of your passion as hostility is something anyone on the other side of the argument will do, just as We sometimes misinterpret aggressive opinionation of others as hostility.
No one here is the enemy, We only rarely have those REAL jerks who come in calling names and doing real disruption. @Quartz jumped to a conclusion about your passion, and I jumped to a conclusion about his statement and it turned into a hot mess. Now we're cleaning it up to try and get back on track. I enjoy your expression, @Jaily , to be honest, Your passion about wanting fair treatment is something you're not only entitled to but express in a good manner.
It's not that I feel you're being hostile, You're just fiery and passionate, and people that you argue with often see that as you being angry and overbearing, a simple misunderstanding as @Quartz mentioned after my explanation.
''maybe you could choose collective nouns that are not inherently offensive''
And i did not use any.
"Monks in D&D are not christian monks, nor are they the equivalent of any earthly monk. Their set of morals and rules are completely unlike any found in the real world. Perhaps you would like to bring up the first-party sourcebook that you are reading that there are no homosexual monks from"
Nor did i say they were. But monks in any rpg are based in pre-existing human cultures, Like it or not. Also, all monks tend to follow patterns of behavior. The vast majority of monks either are caste or involved in very traditional and closed communitary family raising. If rasaad (arabic name ?) is based in a faerun culture,which one would allow homosexuality among monks?
"It's funny that you're ok with the Illithid method of intercourse, and not an alternate human method..."
Wtf?
''Setting aside the obvious bigotry in your tone, there's a rather simple solution to your "problem" - don't take Rasaad with you. There are twenty-seven other NPCs in BG:EE, I'm sure you can find one who's more to your liking. What other players do with him is none of your concern. ''
And i dont care either . As i said before. The problem is not the same sex romance itself, but the way you want to put it.
Sourcebook? Where in the blazing blue hells did you read that D&D Monks, martial artists and personal perfection seekers, have ANYTHING to do with family raising? And what about homosexuality is "Abhorrent" to that subject matter? Or were Chaste? Where are you getting this information? Please enlighten us all. Because Last I checked, you could be a lawful evil monk that burned down orphanages and ate human hearts.
You seem to have no problem being subjected to mind flayers, murdering people, taking their brains, eating them or putting them in a vat, and engaging in dark rituals, having blood orgies, and enslaving other sentient races. But goodness forbid there is a Bisexual monk in your fantasy world, that crosses the line.
''You seem to have no problem being subjected to mind flayers, murdering people, taking their brains, eating them or putting them in a vat, and engaging in dark rituals, having blood orgies, and enslaving other sentient races. But goodness forbid there is a Bisexual monk in your fantasy world, that crosses the line.''
What the hell? Where Have i mentioned mind flayers?
"Where in the blazing blue hells did you read that D&D Monks, martial artists and personal perfection seekers, have ANYTHING to do with family raising? And what about homosexuality is "Abhorrent" to that subject matter? Or were Chaste? Where are you getting this information? Please enlighten us all. Because Last I checked, you could be a lawful evil monk that burned down orphanages and ate human hearts."
Well. Im talking about real buddhist monks. Some of them actually marry and have a family closely related to the future of the their isolated commuty . Also,i have not said that relationships are restricted to family raising . Keep the subject and dont create unecessary additional polemics, buddy. It is well known fact that most monks are caste. Some do marry but it is rare.
Lwful evil monks were probably extracted from ninjas,who read buddhist texts to clean their minds after and before the killing and fringe hindu monks who commited sacrifices . Also,perceive that lawful evil guys dont do evil in a insane or needless pattern. Their evil is generally metodic and calculated . But they like it nonetheless.
"" 'Homo' as a blanket reference is offensive."
Sorry then. tought that it meant "homosexuals". Non-offensive term. Btw what the difference?
It is disgusting and plain wrong independently of your sexuality.
Then I don't know what aspect you are offended by. It's a simple continuation of your argument, if not, I would like further clarification.
On the Illithid issue. Illithids are represented in these games, as are their various behaviors. You have no problem with this, by simple virtue of you playing the game without complaining about it. But the line occurs when they want bisexuality in the game.
Ninjas, HISTORICALLY, were poor disgraced warriors that were out of employ and did anything they could to earn a living. They had No access to philosophical works, nor any perceived honor or grace. They were ruthless killers, bandits and rogues that would do anything for a Koku.
Lawful Evil Monks. Pervading evil in drastic manners such as burning down orphanages can and usually is calculated to expound maximum effect on good citizens of a populace... that is if you're doing evil right. Eating Human hearts can be and likely is in someone's game out there, a Tradition of a Lawful Evil Monastic Order.
They aren't Buddhist, D&D Monks don't even have to be associated with a religion at all. They just have to be lawful.
Right, so. Everything in the Forgotten Realms corresponds to something in our wonky little world? That sounds dull and unimaginative, not to mention restrictive. As much as I like to maintain some level of realism even in high fantasy, I'd rather not have our various religious (or some other) conventions restrict the love lives of fictional characters, be they monks of whatever deity or something else. Human beings are sexual beings in one way or another right from the beginning, I'd hope at least in a fantasy world they aren't required to suppress that part of themselves even if in ours they choose (or are made) to do so. I find hardly anything disrespectful in that, as, well, entirely unrelated to each other! Of course if one is inclined to draw connections between statistics of ice cream sales and deaths by drowning during one summer, they're free to do so. Others just might not give a hoot.
Mind flayers were mentioned assumably because this was the subject of all the "unrealistic" things in FR you seem to be bothered with. Not violence, monsters, races or boots of speed. Bisexual religious characters that aren't chaste. Oh the horror.
As for offensive terms and whether they are or not, looking up the subject and different points of views might clear things up.
It goes well until an elf comes along and tosses a fireball, really. So four minutes, give or take. If I take a three minute break to do some Important Meat Space Stuff.
HAH! First millisecond of BG2 (Plays elven mages, loves fireballs)
Double Edit: Best Mental image ever, Imoen lets CHARNAME out of the cage, "SHUT UP IMOEN!" *Launches a fireball into the first golem room* "Yeah... still got it! What were you saying?"
Haha! See, my CHARNAME is more likely to get all 'woe woe caged, torture, ow, boo boo woe' until she grows tired of the angst and wanders off to find Rasaad and see what his romance story will be like. Best games everr.
As many nyingma tibetan monks. Newar buddhist monks and so on.
What i meant as wrong and disgusting is the use of monasticism with that intention, just that.
"On the Illithid issue. Illithids are represented in these games, as are their various behaviors. You have no problem with this, by simple virtue of you playing the game without complaining about it. But the line occurs when they want bisexuality in the game."
I kill illithids. They are the villains. I dont kill non-evil monks.
"Bisexual religious characters that aren't chaste. Oh the horror."
The subject was Bisexual monks. Not chastity of bisexuals. That does not matter.
"Ninjas, HISTORICALLY, were poor disgraced warriors that were out of employ and did anything they could to earn a living. They had No access to philosophical works, nor any perceived honor or grace. They were ruthless killers, bandits and rogues that would do anything for a Koku."
That is not completely right. Many ninjas had status,provided they pledged allegiance to the right lord. An example would be hattori hanzo and some who served as killers for the tokugawa shogunate. And also you dont need to know to read to be spiritual or philosophical.
"Lawful Evil Monks. Pervading evil in drastic manners such as burning down orphanages can and usually is calculated to expound maximum effect on good citizens of a populace... that is if you're doing evil right. Eating Human hearts can be and likely is in someone's game out there, a Tradition of a Lawful Evil Monastic Order."
Well. I dont know were that happened (the burning of orphanages) but to me it seem gratuitous fo LE characters. Eating human hearts in rituals would be more likely to be practiced,as i did happen in some cultures (thugees in india for example).
But you really have a point there. I agree that if there is a deity or religion in faerun that would BE LIKELY to allow homosexualiy in monks,that would be ok.
"They aren't Buddhist, D&D Monks don't even have to be associated with a religion at all. They just have to be lawful. "
They need to be associated with a religious philosophy. That is the DEFYNITION of a monk. Or else it will be just a martial artist,not a monk.
"Right, so. Everything in the Forgotten Realms corresponds to something in our wonky little world? That sounds dull and unimaginative,"
Everything is copyed,nothing is created...
If a monk looks like a chinese or indian buddhist there is a paralel. If the temple of helm in naskhel looks like a christian church, there is another one.
But anyway. It is ok to put a monk like that if there is a tradition in faerun that would be likely to do this. You guys point which one. It also would need to be mentioned in the enhanced game.
Im done about this subject. I said my opinion and that is it. You are all entitled to your own.
D&D Monks are not Real life monks. They do not adhere to earthly traditions and need not associate with a religion OR EVEN AN ORDER. Player's Handbook Monk Class. Sourced.
So you're ok with genocide, as long as they're a evil race... you must HATE Viconia. That seems somehow worse... But bisexuality is still too gross for you.
Your arguments are Strawman arguments. Time to break out the Debate terms! You make an assumption on a feature without fully understanding the nature of that feature, drawing phantom parralells that do not exist. Read the monk class.
Your arguments are a Fallacy, just because Monks in our world share the word Monk in D&D you assume that they are the same thing. Well let me ask you, Buddhist monks and Christian monks share the same name as well, do they have all the same values? Do they abide by the same tradition? Hint: No.
Hattori Hanzo was a samurai by status. He mastered Ninja arts. Ninja is a status descriptor, and it is a dishonorable one.
Most strict warrior cultures of the past that I can think of had traditions of homosexuality. Due to later and modern homophobic attitudes some of this is denied or ignored.
As a matter of understanding the past, if there were laws and rules about something then it was because the subject of that law was something that did actually happen. These laws weren't written for us moderns to read and say "hey look, they didn't like that so it didn't happen."
edit- I just wanted to agree with @tenyaiba and anyone else who pointed out that again there is no issue here, this is fantasy using reality as a source; to go through all examples of real life things represented in this game that are not the same as in real life would be absurd and tedious.
"So you're ok with genocide, as long as they're a evil race"
Why do you need to invent things? I never said i supported genocide.
"Your arguments are a Fallacy, just because Monks in our world share the word Monk in D&D you assume that they are the same thing. Well let me ask you, Buddhist monks and Christian monks share the same name as well, do they have all the same values? Do they abide by the same tradition? Hint: No."
If there were not monks in our world. There would not be monks in the game. Monks tend all to share characteristics,but with variations.
Well monks need to have been trained in a spiritual philosophy by a master or monastery. That is what is mentioned in the players handbook. Itinerant monks are still monks who formerly perfomed a spiritual and philosophical training. If it is just a guy with physical training,than is not a monk. It would not understand things like "chi" (other concept extracted from our world -see oriental adventures book to be amazed how much it explictly takes from eastern culture).
"Your arguments are a Fallacy, just because Monks in our world share the word Monk in D&D you assume that they are the same thing. Well let me ask you, Buddhist monks and Christian monks share the same name as well, do they have all the same values? Do they abide by the same tradition? Hint: No."
They share SOME. That is why they are all called monks independently of religion.
"Hattori Hanzo was a samurai by status. He mastered Ninja arts. Ninja is a status descriptor, and it is a dishonorable one. "
Honor was a tool for the tokugawa shogunate. It was quickly discarde in favour of power. Ninjas were used all the time by powerful landlords. Some even had status.
Honor and status was an establishment of Japanese culture, regardless of whether it was a manipulative tool or not. And I'm waiting for you to cite more names of Ninjas with status. Ninjas were used. USED. They weren't even people to those with status. Just tools to be placed as cheap fodder. At the best the VERY RARE decently skilled ninja were seen as specialists, not honored warriors or spiritual leaders. The grand majority of them were just bandits.
Spiritual equals not religious. Self-Perfection is the doctrine that D&D Monks share.
Your Fallacy stands. Furthermore, the word monk is a loose translation into English, and does not translate the same way backwards. Some equals not all. PHB Clearly states the nature of monks.
Oriental Adventures is directly tailored to resemble earth's asian mythology, and has class modifications, not the class Standards. Those descriptions are changes to the class to be more of what certain players want, that they just couldn't quite get from the standard sets.
"So you're ok with murdering an entire race of intelligent creatures, as long as you can apply the arbitrary "Evil" label to them."
Do not put words in my mouth . Do not invent things.
"Spiritual equals not religious. Self-Perfection is the doctrine that D&D Monks share."
D&D Monks are all philosophical,esoterical,spiritual...They are all linked to a spiritual tradition. See the monk habilities. A warrior training by himself would not understand anything about the monks elusive techniques ,no matter how dedicated he might be to self-perfection.
You really need to read the defynition of a monk in some dictionary.
Comments
I think it's really stupid/silly that males can only romance elves and half-elves, but it doesn't really irk me enough for me to complain about it. I mean, it's silly, but it's not the end of the world, you know You are welcome, and same to you. Thanks, and I thank God that this forum has some form of sanity about it. Maybe the older user base, or something. Who knows. Anyway, this place doesn't sound anything like the rest of the (stereotypical, but sadly accurate) internet. You know, average male liberal atheist age 16-25 a la Reddit (not to hate on such individuals, I'm just pointing out that trend). I quite like how the real world has many type of individuals, instead of just that and nothing else. This particular forum mirrors real life quite a bit better, I must say. People are I guess more honest on here and less rampant. Thank you for being a contributor to that.
Something about the way you worded this made me realize something. Something probably kind of obvious, but:
It's because most of the player base is straight male. Developers want to cater to their playerbase as much as they can. They are completely entitled to do that, and they *should.*
HOWEVER. In the situation you mention it is very unfair. Because we are not talking about something that can only cater to one or the other of this and that, we are talking about completely separate scenarios and characters, *chosen by the player.* In the case you mention it is a matter of they devoted less workpower to construct a game that could satisfy a female player as much. This is where I think it becomes an issue, I like your point.
In short, I understand that a developer wants to focus most of their workpower on their targeted demographic, but it really should be attempted to make a more satisfying gameplay experience for as many demographics as possible in the long run.
At least BGEE seems to be trying to build more of an equilibrium with giving romance options for female characters. Which I guess says something about how gaming culture has changed these 14 years.
There is:
ME1
Liara T'soni lesbian romance as the entire Asari race is bissexual (pretty good to me to put things even, no?).
Kaidan Alenko female possible romance (and he's bi, so he's both female romance option as gay male romance option if i'm not wrong).
ME2
Jacob Taylor human straigh romance
Thane Krios straight alien romance
Garrus Vakarian straight alien romance
Samara/morinth Bissexual alien romance
Kelly chambers bissexual human romance (it's the psychologist of normandy 2)
ME3
Diana Allers Bissexual woman reporter
Samantha Traynor Lesbian woman romance (unfortunally, pretty girl but i only played male shepards in ME3).
Garrus (if started romance in ME2)
Liara T'soni (if started romance in ME and stay faithful in ME2 or have a very good excuse
Kaidan (if started in ME and keep faithful in ME2 or have a good excuse at least)
Kelly chambers (if started in ME2)
I've always thought the Evil CHARNAMES get kind of shafted, even though I've never experienced it myself. It always seems they're forced into actions against their alignment for progress/maximum reward. And they only get Viconia, if they really want to roleplay their Evilitude.
@Kamuzin Mu... people keep saying Liara is "Bisexual" But Asari have one gender... they resemble females of the human species... but they're not actually female. Furthermore you have to be a xenophile (If somehow this term incites anger I'm sorry, I don't mean it offensively...) to get something that's almost female. It seems like A BIG stretch, in my mind. And I'm pretty sure Kaiden Was NOT bi, correct me if I'm wrong, please. Yep, checked the Wiki, Kaiden for Female Shep only.
So if i was in their place, i would do one of two things.
1) Put 2 male and 2 female npcs for hire and make them all bi. Yeah, lame i know, since making characters bi doesn't put that much character into them or gives them an identity but whatever, at least you have a choice now.
2) 1 straight male, 1 straight female, 1 gay male, 1 gay female. Less options for everyone, more character since well, you actually have to distinguish the approach of each romance, but hey, it's not the bold and the beautiful, we don't need 10 romance options. And romances should be engaging stories, not just some banter, like, oh now we know about each other, so let's go to bed at banter #12. Actually the more i think about it, the original romances were actually pretty ok, especially Viconia's.
And please put away the race restrictions, unless it's part of the character, like Viconia and elves.
As for me, i rarely pursue the romances but whatever. You can't be a badass and want to romance as well right? Badasses have to hide and suppress their feelings right?? Emotions are the bane of every warrior RIGHT??? Eh??
No?
Oh well :P
Also, the demographic is not nearly as straight-male-heavy as you might think. The latest surveys showed that over 40% of gamers are female. Now, what you get when you restrict to players of WRPGs I have no idea. However, I would also suggest that at least some of the "developers make games for straight men because that's who plays their games" has the causality backward, and that kind of thinking is a vicious cycle I would like to break out of.
Reading your latest posts, we agree on this basic point. Why are we arguing? I know I would not have lasted long on this forum if there weren't other straight men like you, other posters, and developers themselves who also think everyone should get more options. My problem is with industry trends as a whole and specifically those people who see no problem with keeping it the same. I often try to explain where I'm coming from by putting them in my shoes and reversing the situation hypothetically. Never to say they should be "brought down" (what would that even accomplish?), but to show them why other people want the same treatment they enjoy.
It works the other way around too; when left-handed people say right-handed people can take all sorts of things for granted, I don't feel attacked because it's not a negative character judgment, just...true because of the economics of catering to a majority. And if they never brought it up, most control scheme designers would forget they existed...
But I get the impression @TenYaiba and @EpitomyofShyness also feel I'm being too hostile. Could any of you point out where I've attacked straight men? I don't want anything like this to happen again.
@SerTabris, I was stating that the developers cater to the straight male demographic more than others. I agree with you that the demographic is expanding and I'm delighted by it. It's just Companies can be rather slow sometimes to cater to new demographics in an acceptable manner. That's why we're asking for features to be catered to these new demographics. This company has expressed interest in what we want. We are telling them with these conversations.
I meant that I could see how your words might have been misinterpreted. I didn't for a second think you were attacking someone, but I've seen people misinterpret things before, so that's what I meant. Sorry!
Anyways back on subject, if I had to request additional romances I would want them to add a female-female romance since so far there is not a single one in the entire BG series (that is not a mod). Furthermore I agree, we need more evil characters (who we can romance) . I personally look forward to my naive little goody-two-shoes falling for a certain Blackguard (Doooooorrrrnn).
P.S. You guys rock. This thread is so civil, I love it.
No one here is the enemy, We only rarely have those REAL jerks who come in calling names and doing real disruption. @Quartz jumped to a conclusion about your passion, and I jumped to a conclusion about his statement and it turned into a hot mess. Now we're cleaning it up to try and get back on track. I enjoy your expression, @Jaily , to be honest, Your passion about wanting fair treatment is something you're not only entitled to but express in a good manner.
It's not that I feel you're being hostile, You're just fiery and passionate, and people that you argue with often see that as you being angry and overbearing, a simple misunderstanding as @Quartz mentioned after my explanation.
''maybe you could choose collective nouns that are not inherently offensive''
And i did not use any.
"Monks in D&D are not christian monks, nor are they the equivalent of any earthly monk. Their set of morals and rules are completely unlike any found in the real world. Perhaps you would like to bring up the first-party sourcebook that you are reading that there are no homosexual monks from"
Nor did i say they were. But monks in any rpg are based in pre-existing human cultures, Like it or not. Also, all monks tend to follow patterns of behavior. The vast majority of monks either are caste or involved in very traditional and closed communitary family raising. If rasaad (arabic name ?) is based in a faerun culture,which one would allow homosexuality among monks?
"It's funny that you're ok with the Illithid method of intercourse, and not an alternate human method..."
Wtf?
''Setting aside the obvious bigotry in your tone, there's a rather simple solution to your "problem" - don't take Rasaad with you. There are twenty-seven other NPCs in BG:EE, I'm sure you can find one who's more to your liking. What other players do with him is none of your concern. ''
And i dont care either . As i said before. The problem is not the same sex romance itself, but the way you want to put it.
"Homo" as a blanket reference is offensive.
Sourcebook?
Where in the blazing blue hells did you read that D&D Monks, martial artists and personal perfection seekers, have ANYTHING to do with family raising? And what about homosexuality is "Abhorrent" to that subject matter? Or were Chaste? Where are you getting this information? Please enlighten us all. Because Last I checked, you could be a lawful evil monk that burned down orphanages and ate human hearts.
You seem to have no problem being subjected to mind flayers, murdering people, taking their brains, eating them or putting them in a vat, and engaging in dark rituals, having blood orgies, and enslaving other sentient races. But goodness forbid there is a Bisexual monk in your fantasy world, that crosses the line.
''You seem to have no problem being subjected to mind flayers, murdering people, taking their brains, eating them or putting them in a vat, and engaging in dark rituals, having blood orgies, and enslaving other sentient races. But goodness forbid there is a Bisexual monk in your fantasy world, that crosses the line.''
What the hell? Where Have i mentioned mind flayers?
"Where in the blazing blue hells did you read that D&D Monks, martial artists and personal perfection seekers, have ANYTHING to do with family raising? And what about homosexuality is "Abhorrent" to that subject matter? Or were Chaste? Where are you getting this information? Please enlighten us all. Because Last I checked, you could be a lawful evil monk that burned down orphanages and ate human hearts."
Well. Im talking about real buddhist monks. Some of them actually marry and have a family closely related to the future of the their isolated commuty . Also,i have not said that relationships are restricted to family raising . Keep the subject and dont create unecessary additional polemics, buddy.
It is well known fact that most monks are caste. Some do marry but it is rare.
Lwful evil monks were probably extracted from ninjas,who read buddhist texts to clean their minds after and before the killing and fringe hindu monks who commited sacrifices . Also,perceive that lawful evil guys dont do evil in a insane or needless pattern. Their evil is generally metodic and calculated . But they like it nonetheless.
"" 'Homo' as a blanket reference is offensive."
Sorry then. tought that it meant "homosexuals". Non-offensive term. Btw what the difference?
On the Illithid issue. Illithids are represented in these games, as are their various behaviors. You have no problem with this, by simple virtue of you playing the game without complaining about it. But the line occurs when they want bisexuality in the game.
Ninjas, HISTORICALLY, were poor disgraced warriors that were out of employ and did anything they could to earn a living. They had No access to philosophical works, nor any perceived honor or grace. They were ruthless killers, bandits and rogues that would do anything for a Koku.
Lawful Evil Monks. Pervading evil in drastic manners such as burning down orphanages can and usually is calculated to expound maximum effect on good citizens of a populace... that is if you're doing evil right. Eating Human hearts can be and likely is in someone's game out there, a Tradition of a Lawful Evil Monastic Order.
They aren't Buddhist, D&D Monks don't even have to be associated with a religion at all. They just have to be lawful.
Mind flayers were mentioned assumably because this was the subject of all the "unrealistic" things in FR you seem to be bothered with. Not violence, monsters, races or boots of speed. Bisexual religious characters that aren't chaste. Oh the horror.
As for offensive terms and whether they are or not, looking up the subject and different points of views might clear things up.
Double Edit: Best Mental image ever, Imoen lets CHARNAME out of the cage, "SHUT UP IMOEN!" *Launches a fireball into the first golem room* "Yeah... still got it! What were you saying?"
"... as... "
As many nyingma tibetan monks. Newar buddhist monks and so on.
What i meant as wrong and disgusting is the use of monasticism with that intention, just that.
"On the Illithid issue. Illithids are represented in these games, as are their various behaviors. You have no problem with this, by simple virtue of you playing the game without complaining about it. But the line occurs when they want bisexuality in the game."
I kill illithids. They are the villains. I dont kill non-evil monks.
"Bisexual religious characters that aren't chaste. Oh the horror."
The subject was Bisexual monks. Not chastity of bisexuals. That does not matter.
"Ninjas, HISTORICALLY, were poor disgraced warriors that were out of employ and did anything they could to earn a living. They had No access to philosophical works, nor any perceived honor or grace. They were ruthless killers, bandits and rogues that would do anything for a Koku."
That is not completely right. Many ninjas had status,provided they pledged allegiance to the right lord. An example would be hattori hanzo and some who served as killers for the tokugawa shogunate. And also you dont need to know to read to be spiritual or philosophical.
"Lawful Evil Monks. Pervading evil in drastic manners such as burning down orphanages can and usually is calculated to expound maximum effect on good citizens of a populace... that is if you're doing evil right. Eating Human hearts can be and likely is in someone's game out there, a Tradition of a Lawful Evil Monastic Order."
Well. I dont know were that happened (the burning of orphanages) but to me it seem gratuitous fo LE characters. Eating human hearts in rituals would be more likely to be practiced,as i did happen in some cultures (thugees in india for example).
But you really have a point there. I agree that if there is a deity or religion in faerun that would BE LIKELY to allow homosexualiy in monks,that would be ok.
"They aren't Buddhist, D&D Monks don't even have to be associated with a religion at all. They just have to be lawful. "
They need to be associated with a religious philosophy. That is the DEFYNITION of a monk. Or else it will be just a martial artist,not a monk.
"Right, so. Everything in the Forgotten Realms corresponds to something in our wonky little world? That sounds dull and unimaginative,"
Everything is copyed,nothing is created...
If a monk looks like a chinese or indian buddhist there is a paralel. If the temple of helm in naskhel looks like a christian church, there is another one.
But anyway. It is ok to put a monk like that if there is a tradition in faerun that would be likely to do this. You guys point which one. It also would need to be mentioned in the enhanced game.
Im done about this subject. I said my opinion and that is it. You are all entitled to your own.
So you're ok with genocide, as long as they're a evil race... you must HATE Viconia. That seems somehow worse... But bisexuality is still too gross for you.
Your arguments are Strawman arguments. Time to break out the Debate terms! You make an assumption on a feature without fully understanding the nature of that feature, drawing phantom parralells that do not exist. Read the monk class.
Your arguments are a Fallacy, just because Monks in our world share the word Monk in D&D you assume that they are the same thing. Well let me ask you, Buddhist monks and Christian monks share the same name as well, do they have all the same values? Do they abide by the same tradition? Hint: No.
Hattori Hanzo was a samurai by status. He mastered Ninja arts. Ninja is a status descriptor, and it is a dishonorable one.
As a matter of understanding the past, if there were laws and rules about something then it was because the subject of that law was something that did actually happen. These laws weren't written for us moderns to read and say "hey look, they didn't like that so it didn't happen."
edit- I just wanted to agree with @tenyaiba and anyone else who pointed out that again there is no issue here, this is fantasy using reality as a source; to go through all examples of real life things represented in this game that are not the same as in real life would be absurd and tedious.
Just doing some trouble-shooting.
Why do you need to invent things? I never said i supported genocide.
"Your arguments are a Fallacy, just because Monks in our world share the word Monk in D&D you assume that they are the same thing. Well let me ask you, Buddhist monks and Christian monks share the same name as well, do they have all the same values? Do they abide by the same tradition? Hint: No."
If there were not monks in our world. There would not be monks in the game. Monks tend all to share characteristics,but with variations.
Well monks need to have been trained in a spiritual philosophy by a master or monastery. That is what is mentioned in the players handbook. Itinerant monks are still monks who formerly perfomed a spiritual and philosophical training. If it is just a guy with physical training,than is not a monk. It would not understand things like "chi" (other concept extracted from our world -see oriental adventures book to be amazed how much it explictly takes from eastern culture).
"Your arguments are a Fallacy, just because Monks in our world share the word Monk in D&D you assume that they are the same thing. Well let me ask you, Buddhist monks and Christian monks share the same name as well, do they have all the same values? Do they abide by the same tradition? Hint: No."
They share SOME. That is why they are all called monks independently of religion.
"Hattori Hanzo was a samurai by status. He mastered Ninja arts. Ninja is a status descriptor, and it is a dishonorable one. "
Honor was a tool for the tokugawa shogunate. It was quickly discarde in favour of power. Ninjas were used all the time by powerful landlords. Some even had status.
Goodbye
Spiritual equals not religious. Self-Perfection is the doctrine that D&D Monks share.
Your Fallacy stands. Furthermore, the word monk is a loose translation into English, and does not translate the same way backwards. Some equals not all. PHB Clearly states the nature of monks.
Oriental Adventures is directly tailored to resemble earth's asian mythology, and has class modifications, not the class Standards. Those descriptions are changes to the class to be more of what certain players want, that they just couldn't quite get from the standard sets.
Your Strawman stands, and is uncontested.
You just said: So you're ok with murdering an entire race of intelligent creatures, as long as you can apply the arbitrary "Evil" label to them.
Now we know your opinion. Have a nice day
Do not put words in my mouth . Do not invent things.
"Spiritual equals not religious. Self-Perfection is the doctrine that D&D Monks share."
D&D Monks are all philosophical,esoterical,spiritual...They are all linked to a spiritual tradition. See the monk habilities. A warrior training by himself would not understand anything about the monks elusive techniques ,no matter how dedicated he might be to self-perfection.
You really need to read the defynition of a monk in some dictionary.