Here are some ladies in armour, I'd just rather not throw out fantasy in favour of historicity, in a fantasy setting, why would anyone? the clue is in the name, fantasy. http://www.flickr.com/photos/blujaguar/7593334076/
Here I was, thinking that I wouldn't touch this topic with a 10-foot pole. Then pondering that if Woldan was here (I know him from another forum and wasn't aware of his presence here), he'd surely dig up some gorgeous pic of Gina to shut people up about athletic women not managing to be hot And sure enough...
Personally, I'd be fine with a female warrior with the physique of Gina Carano, shes pretty much a modern female fighter (MMA), she looks and IS very capable and strong without being overly masculine / butch.
Thanks, Woldie! Made my day.
My contribution for now is pointing towards this awesome collection: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor - "ladies that actually dress for dealing damage". For inspiration and enjoyment. Perhaps even for making custom BG portraits.
*sigh* Seriously - every time this topic comes up it devolves to chauvanism (with the age old argument that women 'that' strong are exceptional and don't warrant consideration) or evidence of those exceptional women. As long as it is feasible for a woman to be 18+ strength (don't care how likely), our rare protagonist can be that woman. I do believe that a male, on average, is more suitable, but how many pencilneck 5 STR guys do we know? I've seen such couch potatoes.
My female BG paladin was as strong as Sarevok, packing full plate and chopping her legacy. She's as real to me as any movie character/book character and she is that strong. Whether it was hard for her to be so (and how exceptional she *is*) is sort of beside the point.
To save face, I will @LadyRhian say "I don't find her sexy in that picture". Apparently, she's quite beautiful and feminine in other settings. Reminder to me: stick to the topic at hand and avoid Troll territory, as I quite agree with the 'bikini armor is stupid' trend. Which is why I find girls on motorcycles in jeans and helmets, but bikini tops, to be an invitation for Darwinism to do some culling of our species (we get that a lot in SoCal)
She Hulk always seemed to me to be the epitome of a Female Warrior muscled but not overly bulked up like the Hulk, looked sexy even with the green skin However Im tlaking 1980's and 90's She Hulk, I havent seen her lately
There are plenty of attractive and athletic females IRL, but they are less common in video games. If you look at female character models in fantasy games, they're often quite hideous. Female half-orcs look ridiculous, for example, as do female dwarves. The problem with the portrayal of strong females is not the low amount of bodyfat or high amount of muscle. I think the problem is that when the artist depicts a strong female, they often strip that female of the feminine facial features that make her attractive. It's like we can characterize a fantasy female as either physically strong or attractive, but not both.
I felt the best blend of strength and femininity was IWD2...did you enjoy these portraits, @LadyRhian? I thought many were great.
I should point out, as well, the control comparison: does anyone find this overly muscular man sexy?
Too much muscle on anyone can create a ridiculous portraits.
The first side is that it's actually kind of impressive, culturally, that blacksmiths in the Forgotten Realms (and most other fantasy settings) are so willing to accept a female warrior that they have designed armor specifically for the female form. This speaks to a level of progress in fantasy settings that, at least until fairly recently, was not mainstream at all. So, I guess, that's a good thing.
The second side is that it's based on the assumption that a female warrior is only interesting if she's also appealing in a sexual manner. It undermines any attempt to view women as potential combatants, which in turn results in women being further objectified and "pigeon-holed". Statements such as "Women are more nurturing and better suited to more domestic tasks" are evidence of this stigma, and in large part are the reason for this (fading) tradition of female warriors as sexual entities.
(Yes, it's fading; because as time goes by, people are becoming more and more aware of just how wrong it is to make those kinds of assumptions based on gender.)
The chainmail bikini is a symptom of the greater problem. Until gamers are willing to accept that women are more than just pretty things to look at, there will always be a market for Vanille (from Final Fantasy XIII) and similar characters: characters with real substance that is concealed under a veil of skin.
It is not Chauvanism to have personal tastes in beauty, I also find Male body builders all bulked up unattractive. Popular tastes in what is considered a beautiful female form have varied over the centuries from rather portly to rail thin. Some of the "Attraction" factor isn't even voluntary or concious, males are subconciously hardwired to find certain traits attractive...as are females and then there is the whole pheromone thing...
(Yes, it's fading; because as time goes by, people are becoming more and more aware of just how wrong it is to make those kinds of assumptions based on gender.)
You realize it is only fading NOW because Modern Society/civilization is making it possible, in a less modernized civilization the differences between men and women is FAR more pronounced, yes there are outliers on each end of the scale but women didn't fullfill their "traditional" roles because men beat them into it (at least not in all cases) NATURE has a real say in the matter and to not recognize the difference between the sexes is to do a disservice to both and to nature.
Come to think of it, that Gina Carano gal is pretty tall according to wikipedia. Can she act, I wonder? Maybe she should play She-Hulk in a future Marvel movie!
@ Schneidend With 5'8'' / 173cm I wouldn't call her tall at all, thats just a little above the average height of women here in my country. And yes, she can act! Check out her movie debut ''Haywire'', the film itself isn't what I'd call flawless but she does a great job in action scenes in a very believable natural way.
Excellent. *steeples fingers and plots in a sinister fashion*
When I say "pretty tall" I essentially mean above average. Tall enough that, if you film it right, she could look huge compared to Scarlet Johansson, which you'd want since She-Hulk is one of the taller women in the Marvelverse.
No one mentioned Michiko Nishiwaki yet? Heresy, I say!
On-topic: Most of the skimpy armoured warrior lasses out there are "glamourzonesses"; models without the least bit of muscles, weathered looks, or scars on them. This is not only immersion-breaking, but saddens me to no end as well. You see, I love to be able to admire strong, muscular woman bodies; both in games and in real life. A good (and familiar) example would be the sexy half-orc barbarian portrait from IWD2.
So yeah, I am a masculine woman lover and proud of it!
From what I hear, most people who do the real heavy weight lifting look rather portly instead of ripped.
Its all about the amount of body fat, if its really low you can see almost every single muscle and all the veins, doesn't matter if you do competitive weight lifting or just aerobics. (As long as you're not anorexic)
(Yes, it's fading; because as time goes by, people are becoming more and more aware of just how wrong it is to make those kinds of assumptions based on gender.)
You realize it is only fading NOW because Modern Society/civilization is making it possible, in a less modernized civilization the differences between men and women is FAR more pronounced, yes there are outliers on each end of the scale but women didn't fullfill their "traditional" roles because men beat them into it (at least not in all cases) NATURE has a real say in the matter and to not recognize the difference between the sexes is to do a disservice to both and to nature.
Nature enters into it only as far as culture allows. Our perspective for the last two-thousand years has been "Men on top, women on bottom", and it's only in the last fifty years or so that that concept has even begun to shift in a mainstream way.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with an alternate setting having a different set of societal norms; and regardless of "historical accuracy", these worlds are created today, not five-hundred years ago. We should be moving toward a more modern fantasy paradigm, where the rule is "men and women are equals".
I'm not criticizing worlds for the way they treat their genders; it's the author's prerogative. but when it comes to realism, we shouldn't always be basing it on "well, women in the real world aren't good fighters either". I think as a society we've moved beyond that.
(Yes, it's fading; because as time goes by, people are becoming more and more aware of just how wrong it is to make those kinds of assumptions based on gender.)
You realize it is only fading NOW because Modern Society/civilization is making it possible, in a less modernized civilization the differences between men and women is FAR more pronounced, yes there are outliers on each end of the scale but women didn't fullfill their "traditional" roles because men beat them into it (at least not in all cases) NATURE has a real say in the matter and to not recognize the difference between the sexes is to do a disservice to both and to nature.
Nature enters into it only as far as culture allows. Our perspective for the last two-thousand years has been "Men on top, women on bottom", and it's only in the last fifty years or so that that concept has even begun to shift in a mainstream way.
That being said, there's nothing wrong with an alternate setting having a different set of societal norms; and regardless of "historical accuracy", these worlds are created today, not five-hundred years ago. We should be moving toward a more modern fantasy paradigm, where the rule is "men and women are equals".
I'm not criticizing worlds for the way they treat their genders; it's the author's prerogative. but when it comes to realism, we shouldn't always be basing it on "well, women in the real world aren't good fighters either". I think as a society we've moved beyond that.
This is entirely wrong. By nature, we are humans. By personhood, we are male and female. This is the great category mistake of the past century or so here in the West.
A nature is what something is; a person is who someone is. Within humanity their is one nature, which men and women share; but there are two personhoods, which we do not share. For the vast majority of human civilization, the sexes have behaved in fitting with their personhoods; they behaved in that way because it is how they actually are. Men are strong and offertory, while women are weak and receptive. Men are fathers, and women are mothers. These relationships exist in societies because that is simply who we are; men did not beat women into anything. Rather, men were being men, and women were being women. Women were pleased with being mothers, and men were pleased with being providers.
Here in the 20th to 21st century West, we have became aberrant and decadent- and we have suffered for it; women have refused to be feminine; they have lost their personhood and become objects- and men have treated them so; while men have ceased to be masculine and are now becoming objectified in a way similar to women. Hence, the decline of our society...
With regards to the specific topic, I would like to see modest art for women. I would like to see them depicted as meek, as mothers and nurturers within video game art. This is what will de-objectify them and will restore to them their dignity and personhood, as is fitting.
However, this is unlikely to happen, so I simply ask for the art to be attractive and interesting. I am not concerned for realism, as we left that behind long ago.
Comments
By Sharess, that woman is gorgeous.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/blujaguar/7593334076/
My contribution for now is pointing towards this awesome collection: Women Fighters in Reasonable Armor - "ladies that actually dress for dealing damage". For inspiration and enjoyment. Perhaps even for making custom BG portraits.
My female BG paladin was as strong as Sarevok, packing full plate and chopping her legacy. She's as real to me as any movie character/book character and she is that strong. Whether it was hard for her to be so (and how exceptional she *is*) is sort of beside the point.
I felt the best blend of strength and femininity was IWD2...did you enjoy these portraits, @LadyRhian? I thought many were great.
I should point out, as well, the control comparison: does anyone find this overly muscular man sexy?
Too much muscle on anyone can create a ridiculous portraits.
The first side is that it's actually kind of impressive, culturally, that blacksmiths in the Forgotten Realms (and most other fantasy settings) are so willing to accept a female warrior that they have designed armor specifically for the female form. This speaks to a level of progress in fantasy settings that, at least until fairly recently, was not mainstream at all. So, I guess, that's a good thing.
The second side is that it's based on the assumption that a female warrior is only interesting if she's also appealing in a sexual manner. It undermines any attempt to view women as potential combatants, which in turn results in women being further objectified and "pigeon-holed". Statements such as "Women are more nurturing and better suited to more domestic tasks" are evidence of this stigma, and in large part are the reason for this (fading) tradition of female warriors as sexual entities.
(Yes, it's fading; because as time goes by, people are becoming more and more aware of just how wrong it is to make those kinds of assumptions based on gender.)
The chainmail bikini is a symptom of the greater problem. Until gamers are willing to accept that women are more than just pretty things to look at, there will always be a market for Vanille (from Final Fantasy XIII) and similar characters: characters with real substance that is concealed under a veil of skin.
Yes, but only because of the crown. What can I say; I'm attracted to power.
With 5'8'' / 173cm I wouldn't call her tall at all, thats just a little above the average height of women here in my country. And yes, she can act! Check out her movie debut ''Haywire'', the film itself isn't what I'd call flawless but she does a great job in action scenes in a very believable natural way.
When I say "pretty tall" I essentially mean above average. Tall enough that, if you film it right, she could look huge compared to Scarlet Johansson, which you'd want since She-Hulk is one of the taller women in the Marvelverse.
Here's a pic of my favorite real life male fighter/bodybuilder, Manny Pacquiao. Non-flex: http://www.gq.com/images/sports/2010/manny-pacquiao/manny-pacquiao_300x430.jpg
Flex: http://www.pacquiaovideo.com/2012/06/manny-pacquiao-vs-timothy-bradley-weigh.html
And my favorite real life male model, from DeviantArt: http://quemas.deviantart.com/art/fisherman-02-156695308
And the sexiest guy from a videogame: http://MugenMcFugen.deviantart.com/art/In-the-morning-260153306
If you don't recognize the character, it's this one: http://TheAstrix.deviantart.com/art/Coldfront-Sniper-302912895
On-topic:
Most of the skimpy armoured warrior lasses out there are "glamourzonesses"; models without the least bit of muscles, weathered looks, or scars on them. This is not only immersion-breaking, but saddens me to no end as well. You see, I love to be able to admire strong, muscular woman bodies; both in games and in real life. A good (and familiar) example would be the sexy half-orc barbarian portrait from IWD2.
So yeah, I am a masculine woman lover and proud of it!
That being said, there's nothing wrong with an alternate setting having a different set of societal norms; and regardless of "historical accuracy", these worlds are created today, not five-hundred years ago. We should be moving toward a more modern fantasy paradigm, where the rule is "men and women are equals".
I'm not criticizing worlds for the way they treat their genders; it's the author's prerogative. but when it comes to realism, we shouldn't always be basing it on "well, women in the real world aren't good fighters either". I think as a society we've moved beyond that.
A nature is what something is; a person is who someone is. Within humanity their is one nature, which men and women share; but there are two personhoods, which we do not share. For the vast majority of human civilization, the sexes have behaved in fitting with their personhoods; they behaved in that way because it is how they actually are. Men are strong and offertory, while women are weak and receptive. Men are fathers, and women are mothers. These relationships exist in societies because that is simply who we are; men did not beat women into anything. Rather, men were being men, and women were being women. Women were pleased with being mothers, and men were pleased with being providers.
Here in the 20th to 21st century West, we have became aberrant and decadent- and we have suffered for it; women have refused to be feminine; they have lost their personhood and become objects- and men have treated them so; while men have ceased to be masculine and are now becoming objectified in a way similar to women. Hence, the decline of our society...
With regards to the specific topic, I would like to see modest art for women. I would like to see them depicted as meek, as mothers and nurturers within video game art. This is what will de-objectify them and will restore to them their dignity and personhood, as is fitting.
However, this is unlikely to happen, so I simply ask for the art to be attractive and interesting. I am not concerned for realism, as we left that behind long ago.