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The new kits - ask away (spoilers)

24

Comments

  • CutlassJackCutlassJack Member Posts: 493
    I'm a little disappointed that the Battleguard cant use axes like they could in IWD2.

    booinyoureyes
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    edited October 2014
    CamDawg said:

    C'mon @elminster‌, you don't need to pimp your mod in every thread.

    I'll heed this as well, and not pimp too hard, but to keep this discussion on the priests of Tyr and Tempus, and steer away those looking for other deities, I'll suggest that anyone looking for playable priests of Shar, Sune, Tempus (albeit a different sect from the Battleguards), plus a few others, not to mention adding such kits to joinable Bioware NPCs, might want to glance over at my thread in the 'General Modding' forum. You might just find what you're looking for...
    CamDawg said:

    There's also a joinable Battleguard already running around the Sword Coast...

    Oh, I don't know. I can't think of anyone in BGEE or BGIIEE who would worship Shar.

    shawne said:

    @CamDawg: Are the restrictions on changing existing BG NPCs still in place? Or could Branwen actually be kitted as a Battleguard?

    It is something we've discussed, and I believe it's within the scope of what's allowed, though we'd probably have to check.
    Sigh, you guys are going to come in and totally cannibalize/invalidate my mod aren't you. Oh well, cheers, keep up the good work!

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
    booinyoureyeselminster
  • CutlassJackCutlassJack Member Posts: 493
    elminster said:

    I'm a little disappointed that the Battleguard cant use axes like they could in IWD2.

    Different ruleset.
    Doesn't really change my point. Which had to do with roleplay, not rulesets.

  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    We have Monks, Barbarians and Sorcerers running around in a 2E ruleset game - I don't think ruleset is a valid excuse here.

    kensaiShikao
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,968
    edited October 2014
    Since IWD2 is in 3rd edition the game is much more open to the idea of clerics (regardless of their god/goddess) using a wide variety of weapons. The other games (BG2, BGEE, BG2EE, etc) make trying to give cleric kits access to a specific group of weapons (without giving the base class access to them) to be a big pain. As I understand it if you wanted to make it so that a priest of Tempus could use any axe in the game (without affecting the base cleric classes access to items) then you'd have to give it the equivalent of Use Any Item and then restrict it from the items you don't want it to have access to.

  • KenjiKenji Member Posts: 249
    edited October 2014
    CamDawg said:

    Elzarath said:

    New kits are fun! Will we see them in BG & BG2? I thought everyone wanted Priestess of Aruil (sp?) kit though?

    The problem with Aurilites is that they're hated in the north. It's unlikely Hrothgar or Arundel would approach them for help, and the conclusion in the Vale of Shadows would have to be entirely restructured.

    I still think whether or not the Aurilites are hated in Icewind Dale at that period of time is debatable (They sure are in IWD2, though). As for Hrothgar or Arundel asking for help? It is up to the player to hide their allegiance or intent.

    However, in another thread elminster already pointed out that Aurilites are not to raise arms agianst one another. So..

    Killing Lysan with an Aurilite in player's party would be quite the Lore breaker (unless they introduce disgraced priests who would lose their divine power..). Having other options such as siding with Lysan will only break the linearity of the Icewind Dale storytelling as well as introducing inconsistency in the series (IWD 2).


    Just mentioning this in case some people are still not convinced.

    Would be nice to see a kit for Lorekeepers of Oghma, though!

  • RamzaRamza Member Posts: 111
    elminster said:

    Since IWD2 is in 3rd edition the game is much more open to the idea of clerics (regardless of their god/goddess) using a wide variety of weapons. The other games (BG2, BGEE, BG2EE, etc) make trying to give cleric kits access to a specific group of weapons (without giving the base class access to them) to be a big pain. As I understand it if you wanted to make it so that a priest of Tempus could use any axe in the game (without affecting the base cleric classes access to items) then you'd have to give it the equivalent of Use Any Item and then restrict it from the items you don't want it to have access to.

    Or you could allow a weapon set for the base cleric and all its kits, and then individually disable it on all of them except the one you want to have access to it. The UAI thing wouldn't let you put proficiency points into it.

  • AedanAedan Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 8,255
    Kenji said:

    Would be nice to see a kit for Lorekeepers of Oghma, though!

    Indeed!

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    Ramza said:

    Or you could allow a weapon set for the base cleric and all its kits, and then individually disable it on all of them except the one you want to have access to it.

    But you can't 'individually disable it' for the base unkitted cleric. And you can't restrict players from choosing base unkitted cleric. And you can't have people dual-class into anything but the base class, so a Fighter 2 -> Cleric will be able to get GM in any sharp weapon and be wildly more powerful. (IWD2 has different weapon usage *and* different dual-classing rules... so yes the overall ruleset matters.)

    Another possibility I could see is to 1) allow the base class to just about any weapons, 2) determine a smaller set of non-cleric item usable by each kit (axes for Tempus etc), 3) create a hidden kit which is identical to the base class but with the traditional restrictions, and 4) add a scripted event via the base class's CLAB file that automatically switches unkitted players to the hidden, restricted kit immediately at level 1.

    Easier to just use a mace!

    elminsterOzzyBotkins
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394

    Sigh, you guys are going to come in and totally cannibalize/invalidate my mod aren't you. Oh well, cheers, keep up the good work!

    'tis true, I'm afraid. Never before has a mod created Shar and Tempus kits and assigned them to NPCs. :p

    As for the axe question--there are a lot of ways to do this, but we're sticking with the normal cleric weapon availability for both kits.

    elminsterkaguana
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    @CamDawg: Hypothetically speaking, what would a Priest of Shar kit look like? Would it be a defense-oriented class like the Dark Moon Monk?

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited October 2014
    Cause Blindness? Summon Shadow? Innate Detect Illusion? Immunity to anti-magic zones (Shadow Weave)?

    lolien
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    edited October 2014
    CamDawg said:

    'tis true, I'm afraid. Never before has a mod created Shar and Tempus kits and assigned them to NPCs. :p

    Touché :)

    I should think that there are more than one type of priest for any given deity. F&A has some (isn't that a 3e sourcebook btw?) and "Warriors and Priests of the Realms" (a proper 2e sourcebook) details numerous kit for each deity. E.g. for Tempus there is the Gloryblood, who travels the land looking to join righteous battles (for which side, is not important) and the Battleforge, a priest who focuses more on helping prepare soldiers for battle than for joining and fighting himself.

    For Shar, the FR wiki identifies a number of sects: Dark Justiciars, Dark Moon Monks, Nightcloaks, Beguilers, and Darkcloaks. Cam's Armor of Darkness and Darkbolt would seem appropriate for Dark Justiciars perhaps (they have to kill a priest of Selune to gain entrance to the order). The more mentally-focused spells that I use - Blindness, Sleep, Feeblemind - seem more for use by Darkcloaks. ("Unusual among other orders in the Church, Darkcloaks are actually a group of oracles and care-givers who tend to troubled souls who are emotionally damaged, often bringing the bliss of forgetfulness to soothe their pain.")

    Personally, I think Viconia seems best suited to be a Darkcloak. Though of course reasonable minds can disagree - and roleplay differently!

    As for the Shadow Weave, the wiki says Shar has an order of sorcerers who get their power from it. Would make a cool sorcerer kit!

  • WigglesWiggles Member Posts: 571
    Are any of the new cleric kits race specific (similar to Dwarven Defender) or can anyone be the new kits?

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,394
    Fardragon said:

    Cause Blindness? Summon Shadow? Innate Detect Illusion? Immunity to anti-magic zones (Shadow Weave)?

    Again, for what I consider 'baseline' content, I want the new kits to blend in seamlessly with the existing ones. Blindness or Confusion would both work as the 1/5; innate thieving abilities or immunities don't really match the other clerical kits. If you want a larger departure, Divine Remix or any number of mods can provide it.

    I should think that there are more than one type of priest for any given deity. F&A has some (isn't that a 3e sourcebook btw?) and "Warriors and Priests of the Realms" (a proper 2e sourcebook) details numerous kit for each deity. E.g. for Tempus there is the Gloryblood, who travels the land looking to join righteous battles (for which side, is not important) and the Battleforge, a priest who focuses more on helping prepare soldiers for battle than for joining and fighting himself.

    For Shar, the FR wiki identifies a number of sects: Dark Justiciars, Dark Moon Monks, Nightcloaks, Beguilers, and Darkcloaks. Cam's Armor of Darkness and Darkbolt would seem appropriate for Dark Justiciars perhaps (they have to kill a priest of Selune to gain entrance to the order). The more mentally-focused spells that I use - Blindness, Sleep, Feeblemind - seem more for use by Darkcloaks. ("Unusual among other orders in the Church, Darkcloaks are actually a group of oracles and care-givers who tend to troubled souls who are emotionally damaged, often bringing the bliss of forgetfulness to soothe their pain.")

    Personally, I think Viconia seems best suited to be a Darkcloak. Though of course reasonable minds can disagree - and roleplay differently!

    As for the Shadow Weave, the wiki says Shar has an order of sorcerers who get their power from it. Would make a cool sorcerer kit!

    The F&A I have is 2e; it's possible there's a 3e version, too. Each faith has various categories and orders which allow for service. Broadly we have clerics (what we have in the game), crusaders, druids, monks, mystics, and shamans. When I think of Tyr or Torm, I'm usually thinking of paladins (crusaders) long before clerics. For Shar in particular, only the Nightcloaks and Dark Justicars are mentioned (with the latter being a subset of the former); either the 2e F&A doesn't cover the rest or they're in a different source book or they're a 3e thing. Most of the organization is on a local scale, organized around cells, and interested primarily in the accumulation of power so there's a lot of variation.

    As for Vic being a Darkcloak--she's never struck me as a terribly compassionate type. Granted, the description of Nightcloaks are a little more bloodthirsty than I think of Viconia, too, so it's not necessarily a match either.
    Wiggles said:

    Are any of the new cleric kits race specific (similar to Dwarven Defender) or can anyone be the new kits?

    No racial restrictions on either.

    elminster
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    edited October 2014
    CamDawg said:

    The F&A I have is 2e; it's possible there's a 3e version, too.
    ...
    As for Vic being a Darkcloak--she's never struck me as a terribly compassionate type. Granted, the description of Nightcloaks are a little more bloodthirsty than I think of Viconia, too, so it's not necessarily a match either.

    Ah, I had never seen F&A, I guess it was 2e after all. Perhaps one of those "2.5e" late-90s additions? Well anyway no one ever accused 2e of not having enough sourcebooks! I've been using this as reference:
    http://www.dndclassics.com/product/16855/FOR10-Warriors-and-Priests-of-the-Realms-2e?it=1&filters=0_44710_44701

    As for Viconia, I don't think she would have survived on the surface of she was some kind of wanton murderer. She could tend to people, offer sufferers the "bliss" of memory loss/Feeblemind (bliss in her view, probably not in the view of their loved ones!) and generally exchange priestly services for sustenance. That doesn't mean she must have saintly compassion - nobody's perfect! Certainly I think there are plenty of doctors saving lives IRL who would qualify as LE or NE in D&D.

    Anyway Viconia's really a loner with trust issues, she probably doesn't make sense as an member of a sect or cell. Frankly I see C/T multi as the best class/kit for her.

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859
    Well, Viconia brags to you about murdering surfacers, though they aren't very nice folk. Deserve to die though, hard to say. But yeah, Viconia is totally comfortable murdering if she is confident she can get away with it. She is assuredly not compassionate or empathic.

    I would say in ToB she could potentially end up following the 'nicer' orders of Shar, but previously she does sound like a Nightcloak.

  • CutlassJackCutlassJack Member Posts: 493
    edited October 2014
    DreadKhan said:

    Well, Viconia brags to you about murdering surfacers, though they aren't very nice folk. Deserve to die though, hard to say. But yeah, Viconia is totally comfortable murdering if she is confident she can get away with it. She is assuredly not compassionate or empathic.

    Keep in mind that when Viconia says things like that she's trying to keep you from getting too close. As mentioned, she's got trust issues.

    Of course she didn't shed any tears for those people, but she wouldn't murder anyone for no reason. She largely wants to be left alone.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    edited October 2014
    DreadKhan said:

    comfortable murdering if she is confident she can get away with it.

    I think that's the operative quote. She clearly did not murder wantonly, and she is clearly comfortable interacting with surfacers in ways that benefit both sides - as evidenced by her accompanying Charname, and I believe in the story about how she accepts shelter from some kindly farmers (without murdering them!)

  • WigglesWiggles Member Posts: 571
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,859

    DreadKhan said:

    comfortable murdering if she is confident she can get away with it.

    I think that's the operative quote. She clearly did not murder wantonly, and she is clearly comfortable interacting with surfacers in ways that benefit both sides - as evidenced by her accompanying Charname, and I believe in the story about how she accepts shelter from some kindly farmers (without murdering them!)
    She's NE and not stupid, so obviously she's not going to be as openly brutal as Shar-Teel, but she is very clesr about being quite comfortable killing people quite brutally without it being necessary. Thats pretty wanton, just not stupidly so. Besides, Shar's Church is a pretty subtle bunch, even the less subtle members are quite different from the other big Evil faiths, ie Bane, Talos, later Cyric. Her faith is very, very big on secrecy, and getting away with murder is pretty much Shar's thing. Afaik, truly open conflict with Shar's followers is rare outside her rivalry with Selune.

    Viconia iirc brags about murdering a family after they mistreat her. Vengeance can slither into neutrality, but not good. *shrug* She is not a compassionate or understanding person. Redeemable apparently, but not for most of BG1+2.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    I think that's the operative quote. She clearly did not murder wantonly, and she is clearly comfortable interacting with surfacers in ways that benefit both sides - as evidenced by her accompanying Charname, and I believe in the story about how she accepts shelter from some kindly farmers (without murdering them!)

    I might be misremembering, but doesn't she reveal in BG2 that she did kill those farmers in the end? And from the way she describes it, it's clear she relishes the memory - IIRC, she kills the son first, then positions the body in such a way that it lures the father into a trap. Granted, she did this after they basically buried her alive... but compassion didn't play any part in that scenario.

    DreadKhan
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    Yeah that was only after they betrayed her. But, this:
    Wiggles said:

    New kits > Viconia

    MERLANCE
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Yeah that was only after they betrayed her. But, this:

    Wiggles said:

    New kits > Viconia

    Well, hopefully some day new kits = Viconia.

    WigglesMERLANCE
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Viconia doesn't need a new kit

    elminsterNimranjackjackQuartz
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