I understand your point of view but I do not agree with it.
1) So, you talk within the game context but the only one that actually experienced the torture was Imoen. So we do not have a true comparation with other characters.
2) The problem with the whole game, is that it seems to be made for kids and teen. What I mean is, that you have been tortured for who knows how long and neither charname neither imoen seems to have any everlasting effect on what happened.
3) The game, the way it is right now, makes you sympathize with Irenicus... and it is paradoxical compared to what Irenicus did. The truth is, there is no true "implication" on what happened and everything that transpired within that dungeon stay confined in that dungeon.
4) Without experiencing that talk, when I play the game, I feel more for Irenicus rather than my charname. Implying that offscreen something happened and then no consequences at all happens isn't good writing. For me that duergar talk fix that issue. You can avoid it simply by not romancing imoen. Imoen wouldn't share something so personal and dark to anyone else, I guess?
5) If you read the duergar talk, then see this (go to 2:15)
6) I seem to remember that Imoen being kidnapped by Irenicus was a last-day decision to make the player have to go search for Irenicus. If you think about it, such a talk adds a whole new meaning to what is going on and it is bound to make you roleplay. I do not feel the need for vengeance in the game, the way everyone and everything is portrayed. But from the second I read that, my character turned dark and would have made irenicus pay for what has transpired.
7) Reading that talk made me feel a stomach-ache and turned my enjoyment of the mod from 8 to 10.
8) Last note: the talk seems to imply that Irenicus tried that, but the stuff was merely to make the slayer come out. Dark? Yes. Unjustificate? no. It's D&D.
As a writer/DM, I do not fundamentally object to the sexual abuse portion being in the mod; Evil villains do some VERY heinous things, and I feel that, if the mod is aiming for a real "deep dive" into the motivations and actions of evil characters, it shouldn't shy away from describing some of the depths that true villains would sink to.
On the other hand, like wuke I am a bit weary of the trope that rape/sexual assault is THE worst thing that can happen to a female character in a story. Some of the tortures Imoen tells you about sound far worse than mere rape; at one point she mentions how Irenicus infected her with horrible diseases and she had to watch her own body rotting and putrefying before her very eyes. Or the time when he cast spells that literally broke her mind apart and turned her into a drooling idiot (granted, it could just have been a Feeblemind spell, but it gives new insight into how horrid the experience must be).
EDIT: Decided to put my response into Spoilers for the benefit of anyone who hasn't played the mod yet. XD
My problem wiht the Duregar talk is that it's very tonally out of line with the rest of the game. The return to Brynnlaw mod is also filled with this. An addition to the game should be tonally consistent, and any overt mention of sexual abuse sticks out like a sore thumb. If you are going to use a trope like this, it needs to both be earned and treated with the car and seriousness of the real act. This mod does neither, coming completely out of left field, and is just a single banter who's entire purpose is for cheap shock value, and is never actually central to Imoen's arc. Its a one off and done.
I don't mind tropes like that given reasonable context but it must come with very gentle execution in BG games in particular. So many mods feels out of place just because their writing stylistically off even if core is good. In my opinion BG's style closer to plays from chamber theater than videogames. Any sexual abuse references should be treated with tact and without straightforward lines. More between the lines and less direct approach.
@Jarvey banters fire like those ones in an unmodded game: every several minutes there's a small chance for a banter to fire, and the conditions for it must be met. So given the numbers of new banters you might need to use ctrl-i to force them.
Seems like it's a very small chance if they've been firing so rarely. I've been using a banter accelerator during this run, though I don't know if that affects the mod in the same way. They probably could stand a higher chance of firing, unless the intent is that you're not meant to see them all in a single run.
6) I seem to remember that Imoen being kidnapped by Irenicus was a last-day decision to make the player have to go search for Irenicus.
From what I've read, it was actually Imoen's survival that was the last-minute decision. She was intended to be found dead in Spellhold, having died from the extraction process.
Supposedly, BioWare ran a poll about the companions from the first game shortly before release. Imoen was one of the top favorite companions in that poll, so out of fear of backlash they hastily changed things so she would survive and made her a Bhaalspawn in the process to reinforce the sibling-like relationship between the PC and her.
It's why she's such an underwritten character in the base game - her death was meant to motivate your revenge against Irenicus and push you to use the Slayer form more frequently. The dream sequences were meant to foreshadow all of this.
So yeah, about that duegar lovetalk...
On one hand, Imoen's torture in Spellhold needs to be addressed, and treating it as some briefly unpleasant event that's brushed aside or as otherwise sanitary would be dishonest and a disservice. BioWare stepped back from their decision to kill Imoen off, so there needs to be something to give you a real and tangible reason to hate Irenicus for what he's done.
On the other hand, it's the most visible remnant of why this mod was loathed by the overall BG community and why it still carries a certain reputation to this day. It's going to a place that absolutely must be walked with utmost care, and pressing a button that, in the context of fan work, is usually only pressed by edgelords wanting to provoke a reaction...and from the sounds of it, the original author of this mod was just that.
I think the current versions of the mod salvage this ugly topic about as well as it could given the circumstances, but if the point is to ask if it really need to go *there*, then I don't really think so. Baldur's Gate isn't that kind of fantasy work. It's why I've grumbled about how the mod uses modern profanity here and there. It's just not consistent with the base game's tone and style.
I don't think rewriting it into a simple stabbing or other act of brutality would work either. It needs to be something that gets in her head and it needs to respect that Irenicus isn't some simple brute who resorts to a thousand cuts to get what he wants out of someone.
If you asked me to offer my take on what the scene could be, I'd have it like this:
Imoen sees Charname while in her cell and thinks she has finally been rescued. Charname tells her that they came here for Irenicus. They don't care what happened to her. They only want the power Irenicus can offer, and they're happy to watch her die since she has no power to offer them. In despair, she snaps and turns into the Slayer, ripping Charname apart in blind fury...only for the body to turn to a duegar or one of the captured shadow thieves who had been under the influence of Irenicus's spells. Irenicus appears and compliments her efforts, saying she is ready now.
I don't think that outline is perfect by any means, but I think it's a better fit to the base game's tone and style while still being something gutwrenching and personal.
Banters are treated exactly the same way so maybe you just got unlucky i guess
Yeah her survival was the last-minute decision, not her abduction. Using a popular yet under-developed character as plot device is bad enough, they seemed to have taken her popularity as a succuss in building up the character. The result was obvious, many of us (including me) played the game as a hundred-day happy tour in Amn, which is kind of weird considering the story they try to tell. It's even worse when you rush to Spellhold only to find after your return, all side quests become laughably easy - designers actually didn't want you to do that.
And your version definitely fits Irenicus better... Sexual abuse just isn't what I would expect of him. At least it's a slave, it would be a complete disaster if he did it himself.
The return to Brynnlaw mod is also filled with this
Would you mind giving me a spoiler? I haven't played Kulyok's mod yet and I definitely do not like to find this topic in a mod.
Sure, spoilers:
Despite killing the head of the brothel in Brynnlaw on your last visit, it seems the guild has expanded somehow? It seems that every single male npc (besides the one you end up helping) have become uncontrollable horndogs who belittle, taunt, and assault every woman they come across, while ALSO slinging really out of place innuendos into every. single. spoken. sentence. Its INCREDIBLY jarring not only with the rest of the game, but also with your last trip to Brynnlaw. Oh, and the major quest? Your helping a wizard rescue his mind controlled friend (fiance? I kinda stopped paying close attention at some point) from an abusive mentor who regularly rapes her. You know, Baldur's Gate!
If you asked me to offer my take on what the scene could be, I'd have it like this:
Imoen sees Charname while in her cell and thinks she has finally been rescued. Charname tells her that they came here for Irenicus. They don't care what happened to her. They only want the power Irenicus can offer, and they're happy to watch her die since she has no power to offer them. In despair, she snaps and turns into the Slayer, ripping Charname apart in blind fury...only for the body to turn to a duegar or one of the captured shadow thieves who had been under the influence of Irenicus's spells. Irenicus appears and compliments her efforts, saying she is ready now.
I don't think that outline is perfect by any means, but I think it's a better fit to the base game's tone and style while still being something gutwrenching and personal.
That's an excellent alternative scene! I think that would actually make more sense and feel a lot more personal given what we know about Imoen's personality and her stubborn clinging to the belief that Gorion's Ward is ultimately "a nice person", even in the face of ample evidence if the player chooses to be Evil.
The return to Brynnlaw mod is also filled with this
Would you mind giving me a spoiler? I haven't played Kulyok's mod yet and I definitely do not like to find this topic in a mod.
Sure, spoilers:
Despite killing the head of the brothel in Brynnlaw on your last visit, it seems the guild has expanded somehow? It seems that every single male npc (besides the one you end up helping) have become uncontrollable horndogs who belittle, taunt, and assault every woman they come across, while ALSO slinging really out of place innuendos into every. single. spoken. sentence. Its INCREDIBLY jarring not only with the rest of the game, but also with your last trip to Brynnlaw. Oh, and the major quest? Your helping a wizard rescue his mind controlled friend (fiance? I kinda stopped paying close attention at some point) from an abusive mentor who regularly rapes her. You know, Baldur's Gate!
i don't really recall the 2nd thing even tho i played through the mod a month ago. but it's not like Kulyok shys away from this subject. xan's quests come to mind as the one in b g1 and another in tob deal with female elf slavery. and you putting a stop to it.
To me it's all point of view. I didn't perceive it as evident. Yup the pirates on the isle do heinous things. No, it's not in the face of the player. Whatever, it's all a matter of taste in the end.
I checked lovetalks again the duergar talk is the 5th, but is labeled as "ex" and the one after resolution (before sleep, about old memories) is labeled as the 5th, so maybe the changelog just meant the author added a lovetalk to foreshadow her backstory in TOB? Can't remember if this talk existed in older version, anyway I think I should say sorry for the confusion and bringing up this overly debated topic
To me it's all point of view. I didn't perceive it as evident. Yup the pirates on the isle do heinous things. No, it's not in the face of the player. Whatever, it's all a matter of taste in the end.
Um, every single talk with an npc in that mod had my female charname be subject to constant innuendos and dirty talk, and lack of consent. It couldn't be more in your face unless they highlighted the dialogue.
You are in the equivalent of a bronx, in a place where women life have no meaning, with a zealot chief that actually encourages her own men to act like that because to her women are part of the decadence that connotes that island. What did you expect? That female charname had a tag on her that made other people to act on her differently?
You also talked about rape. So just for curiosity, I checked the .tra because I didn't remember about the things you are speaking about
@195 = ~Ten years ago, when Dora just began her studies, Berlin became her first mentor. He gave her tasks she didn't like very much: launder his things, clean the floors, light his fires. Not widely practiced, but not terrible, either.~ @196 = ~Dora refused. She came to learn magic, she said, not to scrub desks. Next thing I knew, she was gliding through halls like a shadow, doing Berlin's tasks without protest. I realized what was wrong only four days later.~ @200 = ~Berlin cast a dire charm on her, washed away her willpower. He treated her like a thing. Like a golem.~ @201 = ~He may be a mighty and a learned wizard, but Berlin doesn't like those who disagree with him. And he never listens. To anyone.~
Tried to search for the following words: rape, sex, consent, tits, abuse
There are none of these words.
So, care to backup the claim of mind rape? Also please describe what you mean by mind rape because I'm curious. Being dominated is mind-rape?
@Arthas Check Berlin and Dora's dialogue files. And remember your first visit ti Brynnlaw? The language used is VERY different. Looks a the slang and innuendo in usage in the mod. There is a huge difference between the two, and its a slap in the face.
That's an excellent alternative scene! I think that would actually make more sense and feel a lot more personal given what we know about Imoen's personality and her stubborn clinging to the belief that Gorion's Ward is ultimately "a nice person", even in the face of ample evidence if the player chooses to be Evil.
I've been thinking a lot about this idea...and there's only one way to see if it could truly work or not.
Hopefully I'm not stepping on toes or otherwise insulting the original writers of the mod by doing this, but I'm taking a shot at rewriting part of this scene. I've been playing around with writing lately, and what do I have to lose?
So yeah, here's my edit of the duegar lovetalk scene. Hopefully I didn't botch this up.
(As she goes further into her memories, Imoen no longer seems to be aware of your presence; she speaks staring into the air, as if she was talking to herself) Those were the times when I really felt myself slipping away, losing my touch with reality.
Towards the end, when I could barely remember my name... I saw you, Charname... or what I thought was you. As you walked to my cell, I thought you were finally going to get me out of there. I had hope again.
Then you spoke to me, and I remember every single word. You... you said you didn't come there to save me. That Irenicus offered you something I could never give.
I remember the shock, and the anger at those words. I wanted to scream that this wasn't really happening. But I'd just... whimper.
And you stepped into the cell and told me you came all this way... (Imoen licks her parched lips) You came all this way for power. For *your* power that only he could unlock.
You... you said... (Her voice breaks. She closes her eyes and takes a sharp breath, tears streaking down her cheeks. Imoen brings a hand to her chest, as if to soothe a stabbing ache in her lungs.)
You said that I was too weak... too weak for you. You sneered at me, said I was a coward... that I was useless to you. You were there to watch me *die*.
I didn't want to believe it was you who was saying these things... but it was your face, and your voice. That feeling of betrayal, the powerlessness... it consumed me. It broke *something* inside. It was like fire... like an explosion, coursing through me. And then... nothing.
The next moment... I woke up in the same cell, in my corner. There was blood... so much blood. I looked around... and I saw it.
A corpse, torn apart... dismembered. Body parts scattered around it, guts and limbs...
I looked at it, and felt... satisfaction. I knew... I *knew* I'd done that. I was proud of it. And then it all gave way to horror. (She pauses, briefly unable to look at you) I- I thought I had killed you, Charname.
I looked at the face... what I could see of it, and it wasn't *your* face. It was someone else, one of those thieves that were brought there, maybe... but it wasn't you. (Relief visibly pours through her) It wasn't you.
Irenicus was outside the cell, along with Bodhi. He nodded and she grinned, baring those awful fangs. She looked at him and said it was a fine display. He told me I had broken down the last wall. I was ready now.
They dragged me into that chamber under the asylum and sealed me in. I begged, pleaded for him to just... stop. He said it would be over soon.
I don't know what happened after that. The world blurred, and everything just... melts in my brain. My next clear memory is of getting tossed into the maze with you. The *real* you.
I- I shouldn't have given in. I should have seen through... whatever it was. You would never say those things to me, right?
But you were the last hope I was holding onto. And he knew it. And he used it against me.
(Imoen takes a deep breath and lets it go slowly, her eyes are shimmering with moisture.)
There's a few things I'm not sure of with this, and of course if this was somehow going to be in the mod then player responses, etc would also have to be adjusted accordingly.
But it's something I guess. I wanted to keep as much of the original mod's style and words and tone intact where possible, because it's really good and affecting stuff. It was this part where the mod really grabbed me, and the last thing I'd ever want to do is to gut the emotional force that got me to stick around in the first place.
@Arthas Check Berlin and Dora's dialogue files. And remember your first visit ti Brynnlaw? The language used is VERY different. Looks a the slang and innuendo in usage in the mod. There is a huge difference between the two, and its a slap in the face.
i'm now curious when Back to Brynnlaw came out compared to Kulyok's other mods. if it was her first then it's explainable as those are always rough. contrast that her final mod reunion which i consider canon.
@Jarvey
This is great! I like the fact that the trick was custom made for her and might not have worked on someone without a strong faith in charname. And in response charname will have the chance to reinforce her trust (or tell her that was exactly what they would have done )
(When I edit a post and submit it just disappears and says it will appear "when approved"? Sorry if duplicate posts appear later if it happens I'll try to edit them empty ASAP)
Ok, so, for those wanting to recover the guide from the old forum, I have access to the old posts, and am able to search them. Not sure about accessing the files linked, but text I can get back.
Once we get a new location, I'll set a new thread here, link to the new form place in this thread, and try copy the guides etc to the new forum.
Just waiting for an area for us to be setup
Still any hope for this to happen some time soon ? I miss those forum discussions and would love to back them up. There were so many nice ideas around Imoen's character there.
@Jarvey
This is great! I like the fact that the trick was custom made for her and might not have worked on someone without a strong faith in charname. And in response charname will have the chance to reinforce her trust (or tell her that was exactly what they would have done )
Thanks! I wasn't planning on rewriting the player responses drastically. Something like that would absolutely cause her to abandon you and the worst you can do in this talk is brush her off, which understandably causes her to be angry with you.
I wish the mod wasn't on life support or the authors so hard to contact. Since there seems to be support for the idea here at least, I'd be willing to offer it up for their consideration.
I wish the mod wasn't on life support or the authors so hard to contact. Since there seems to be support for the idea here at least, I'd be willing to offer it up for their consideration.
you can find the author's email here, but from what he said in his blog he had considered rewriting but didn't do it because it involved another author's work, so I guess it would be at least tricky to make a change like this.
encountered a really small bug today:
in TOB portion a certain PDA option won't do anything, and if I choose it, next time PDA options will remain the same ones instead of a new set. I believe this is caused by PidTreesGeneral.d, line 75:
+ ~IsGabber(Player1) Global("ImoenRomanceActive","GLOBAL",2) RealGlobalTimerExpired("IRTPDATimer","GLOBAL") Global("IRTPDA","GLOBAL",7)~ + ~(Just lay one hand on her shoulder, giving her a soft supportive squeeze.)~ DO ~SetGlobal("bf251","GLOBAL",1) RealSetGlobalTimer("IRTPDATimer","GLOBAL",600)~ + PDA7-1
for every other option
SetGlobal("bf251","GLOBAL",1)
should be
IncrementGlobal("IRTPDA","GLOBAL",1)
can't find any other references to this "bf251" so it doesn't look like an Easter egg or something
That's an excellent alternative scene! I think that would actually make more sense and feel a lot more personal given what we know about Imoen's personality and her stubborn clinging to the belief that Gorion's Ward is ultimately "a nice person", even in the face of ample evidence if the player chooses to be Evil.
I've been thinking a lot about this idea...and there's only one way to see if it could truly work or not.
Hopefully I'm not stepping on toes or otherwise insulting the original writers of the mod by doing this, but I'm taking a shot at rewriting part of this scene. I've been playing around with writing lately, and what do I have to lose?
So yeah, here's my edit of the duegar lovetalk scene. Hopefully I didn't botch this up.
(As she goes further into her memories, Imoen no longer seems to be aware of your presence; she speaks staring into the air, as if she was talking to herself) Those were the times when I really felt myself slipping away, losing my touch with reality.
Towards the end, when I could barely remember my name... I saw you, Charname... or what I thought was you. As you walked to my cell, I thought you were finally going to get me out of there. I had hope again.
Then you spoke to me, and I remember every single word. You... you said you didn't come there to save me. That Irenicus offered you something I could never give.
I remember the shock, and the anger at those words. I wanted to scream that this wasn't really happening. But I'd just... whimper.
And you stepped into the cell and told me you came all this way... (Imoen licks her parched lips) You came all this way for power. For *your* power that only he could unlock.
You... you said... (Her voice breaks. She closes her eyes and takes a sharp breath, tears streaking down her cheeks. Imoen brings a hand to her chest, as if to soothe a stabbing ache in her lungs.)
You said that I was too weak... too weak for you. You sneered at me, said I was a coward... that I was useless to you. You were there to watch me *die*.
I didn't want to believe it was you who was saying these things... but it was your face, and your voice. That feeling of betrayal, the powerlessness... it consumed me. It broke *something* inside. It was like fire... like an explosion, coursing through me. And then... nothing.
The next moment... I woke up in the same cell, in my corner. There was blood... so much blood. I looked around... and I saw it.
A corpse, torn apart... dismembered. Body parts scattered around it, guts and limbs...
I looked at it, and felt... satisfaction. I knew... I *knew* I'd done that. I was proud of it. And then it all gave way to horror. (She pauses, briefly unable to look at you) I- I thought I had killed you, Charname.
I looked at the face... what I could see of it, and it wasn't *your* face. It was someone else, one of those thieves that were brought there, maybe... but it wasn't you. (Relief visibly pours through her) It wasn't you.
Irenicus was outside the cell, along with Bodhi. He nodded and she grinned, baring those awful fangs. She looked at him and said it was a fine display. He told me I had broken down the last wall. I was ready now.
They dragged me into that chamber under the asylum and sealed me in. I begged, pleaded for him to just... stop. He said it would be over soon.
I don't know what happened after that. The world blurred, and everything just... melts in my brain. My next clear memory is of getting tossed into the maze with you. The *real* you.
I- I shouldn't have given in. I should have seen through... whatever it was. You would never say those things to me, right?
But you were the last hope I was holding onto. And he knew it. And he used it against me.
(Imoen takes a deep breath and lets it go slowly, her eyes are shimmering with moisture.)
There's a few things I'm not sure of with this, and of course if this was somehow going to be in the mod then player responses, etc would also have to be adjusted accordingly.
But it's something I guess. I wanted to keep as much of the original mod's style and words and tone intact where possible, because it's really good and affecting stuff. It was this part where the mod really grabbed me, and the last thing I'd ever want to do is to gut the emotional force that got me to stick around in the first place.
I created an account specifically to tell you that I thought this was good shit
but from what he said in his blog he had considered rewriting but didn't do it because it involved another author's work, so I guess it would be at least tricky to make a change like this.
Hmm. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that permission issues could stand in the way, given the mod's rather messy history.
But even if that wasn't a problem, the mod seems to have been considered content complete for years now. Israel's blog hasn't been updated in over 3 years either, which isn't a good sign toward Israel being active. I imagine Israel considers his part done and doesn't want to be bothered about the mod any longer, and that's something I totally understand and respect.
I'd also like to offer a bug report. There's a small dialogue that never triggers. It's in SoA after the player initiates dialogue with Imoen about staying at an inn, and the player agrees to and then sleeps at an inn:
IF ~Global("MRQuality5Sleep","GLOBAL",2)~ THEN BEGIN MRLT5-AfterRest
SAY ~Aaah... (Imoen stretches) last night was great!~
=
~(She positions herself behind you and unapologetically grabs your butt) And I'm not just talkin' about the bed, sweetcheeks!~
=
~Mm-hmm, what a wonderful way to start the day.~
IF ~~ THEN DO ~SetGlobal("MRQuality5Sleep","GLOBAL",3)~ EXIT
END
END
I've never got this to happen, even when I immediately go into an inn to rest after talking to her.
report another bug:
the banter about ranger stronghold consists of 2 parts and the they used different variables ("MRStrongholdTalkUmar" and "MRStrongholdTalkRan") so the latter part won't fire
Edit:
I know there won't be more content-wise changes but many stronghold banters assume charname acquired their stronghold while Imoen was absent, so if she was actually in the team the banter can be really weird, like, she would ask what could the Planar Sphere do or where the ranger's cabin was, right after finishing the corresponding quest.
Comments
1) So, you talk within the game context but the only one that actually experienced the torture was Imoen. So we do not have a true comparation with other characters.
2) The problem with the whole game, is that it seems to be made for kids and teen. What I mean is, that you have been tortured for who knows how long and neither charname neither imoen seems to have any everlasting effect on what happened.
3) The game, the way it is right now, makes you sympathize with Irenicus... and it is paradoxical compared to what Irenicus did. The truth is, there is no true "implication" on what happened and everything that transpired within that dungeon stay confined in that dungeon.
4) Without experiencing that talk, when I play the game, I feel more for Irenicus rather than my charname. Implying that offscreen something happened and then no consequences at all happens isn't good writing. For me that duergar talk fix that issue. You can avoid it simply by not romancing imoen. Imoen wouldn't share something so personal and dark to anyone else, I guess?
5) If you read the duergar talk, then see this (go to 2:15)
6) I seem to remember that Imoen being kidnapped by Irenicus was a last-day decision to make the player have to go search for Irenicus. If you think about it, such a talk adds a whole new meaning to what is going on and it is bound to make you roleplay. I do not feel the need for vengeance in the game, the way everyone and everything is portrayed. But from the second I read that, my character turned dark and would have made irenicus pay for what has transpired.
7) Reading that talk made me feel a stomach-ache and turned my enjoyment of the mod from 8 to 10.
8) Last note: the talk seems to imply that Irenicus tried that, but the stuff was merely to make the slayer come out. Dark? Yes. Unjustificate? no. It's D&D.
On the other hand, like wuke I am a bit weary of the trope that rape/sexual assault is THE worst thing that can happen to a female character in a story. Some of the tortures Imoen tells you about sound far worse than mere rape; at one point she mentions how Irenicus infected her with horrible diseases and she had to watch her own body rotting and putrefying before her very eyes. Or the time when he cast spells that literally broke her mind apart and turned her into a drooling idiot (granted, it could just have been a Feeblemind spell, but it gives new insight into how horrid the experience must be).
EDIT: Decided to put my response into Spoilers for the benefit of anyone who hasn't played the mod yet. XD
Seems like it's a very small chance if they've been firing so rarely. I've been using a banter accelerator during this run, though I don't know if that affects the mod in the same way. They probably could stand a higher chance of firing, unless the intent is that you're not meant to see them all in a single run.
From what I've read, it was actually Imoen's survival that was the last-minute decision. She was intended to be found dead in Spellhold, having died from the extraction process.
Supposedly, BioWare ran a poll about the companions from the first game shortly before release. Imoen was one of the top favorite companions in that poll, so out of fear of backlash they hastily changed things so she would survive and made her a Bhaalspawn in the process to reinforce the sibling-like relationship between the PC and her.
It's why she's such an underwritten character in the base game - her death was meant to motivate your revenge against Irenicus and push you to use the Slayer form more frequently. The dream sequences were meant to foreshadow all of this.
So yeah, about that duegar lovetalk...
On one hand, Imoen's torture in Spellhold needs to be addressed, and treating it as some briefly unpleasant event that's brushed aside or as otherwise sanitary would be dishonest and a disservice. BioWare stepped back from their decision to kill Imoen off, so there needs to be something to give you a real and tangible reason to hate Irenicus for what he's done.
On the other hand, it's the most visible remnant of why this mod was loathed by the overall BG community and why it still carries a certain reputation to this day. It's going to a place that absolutely must be walked with utmost care, and pressing a button that, in the context of fan work, is usually only pressed by edgelords wanting to provoke a reaction...and from the sounds of it, the original author of this mod was just that.
I think the current versions of the mod salvage this ugly topic about as well as it could given the circumstances, but if the point is to ask if it really need to go *there*, then I don't really think so. Baldur's Gate isn't that kind of fantasy work. It's why I've grumbled about how the mod uses modern profanity here and there. It's just not consistent with the base game's tone and style.
I don't think rewriting it into a simple stabbing or other act of brutality would work either. It needs to be something that gets in her head and it needs to respect that Irenicus isn't some simple brute who resorts to a thousand cuts to get what he wants out of someone.
If you asked me to offer my take on what the scene could be, I'd have it like this:
Imoen sees Charname while in her cell and thinks she has finally been rescued. Charname tells her that they came here for Irenicus. They don't care what happened to her. They only want the power Irenicus can offer, and they're happy to watch her die since she has no power to offer them. In despair, she snaps and turns into the Slayer, ripping Charname apart in blind fury...only for the body to turn to a duegar or one of the captured shadow thieves who had been under the influence of Irenicus's spells. Irenicus appears and compliments her efforts, saying she is ready now.
I don't think that outline is perfect by any means, but I think it's a better fit to the base game's tone and style while still being something gutwrenching and personal.
Yeah her survival was the last-minute decision, not her abduction. Using a popular yet under-developed character as plot device is bad enough, they seemed to have taken her popularity as a succuss in building up the character. The result was obvious, many of us (including me) played the game as a hundred-day happy tour in Amn, which is kind of weird considering the story they try to tell. It's even worse when you rush to Spellhold only to find after your return, all side quests become laughably easy - designers actually didn't want you to do that.
And your version definitely fits Irenicus better... Sexual abuse just isn't what I would expect of him. At least it's a slave, it would be a complete disaster if he did it himself.
That's an excellent alternative scene! I think that would actually make more sense and feel a lot more personal given what we know about Imoen's personality and her stubborn clinging to the belief that Gorion's Ward is ultimately "a nice person", even in the face of ample evidence if the player chooses to be Evil.
Um, every single talk with an npc in that mod had my female charname be subject to constant innuendos and dirty talk, and lack of consent. It couldn't be more in your face unless they highlighted the dialogue.
@megamike15
You also talked about rape. So just for curiosity, I checked the .tra because I didn't remember about the things you are speaking about
@196 = ~Dora refused. She came to learn magic, she said, not to scrub desks. Next thing I knew, she was gliding through halls like a shadow, doing Berlin's tasks without protest. I realized what was wrong only four days later.~
@200 = ~Berlin cast a dire charm on her, washed away her willpower. He treated her like a thing. Like a golem.~
@201 = ~He may be a mighty and a learned wizard, but Berlin doesn't like those who disagree with him. And he never listens. To anyone.~
Tried to search for the following words: rape, sex, consent, tits, abuse
There are none of these words.
So, care to backup the claim of mind rape? Also please describe what you mean by mind rape because I'm curious. Being dominated is mind-rape?
I've been thinking a lot about this idea...and there's only one way to see if it could truly work or not.
Hopefully I'm not stepping on toes or otherwise insulting the original writers of the mod by doing this, but I'm taking a shot at rewriting part of this scene. I've been playing around with writing lately, and what do I have to lose?
So yeah, here's my edit of the duegar lovetalk scene. Hopefully I didn't botch this up.
Towards the end, when I could barely remember my name... I saw you, Charname... or what I thought was you. As you walked to my cell, I thought you were finally going to get me out of there. I had hope again.
Then you spoke to me, and I remember every single word. You... you said you didn't come there to save me. That Irenicus offered you something I could never give.
I remember the shock, and the anger at those words. I wanted to scream that this wasn't really happening. But I'd just... whimper.
And you stepped into the cell and told me you came all this way... (Imoen licks her parched lips) You came all this way for power. For *your* power that only he could unlock.
You... you said... (Her voice breaks. She closes her eyes and takes a sharp breath, tears streaking down her cheeks. Imoen brings a hand to her chest, as if to soothe a stabbing ache in her lungs.)
You said that I was too weak... too weak for you. You sneered at me, said I was a coward... that I was useless to you. You were there to watch me *die*.
I didn't want to believe it was you who was saying these things... but it was your face, and your voice. That feeling of betrayal, the powerlessness... it consumed me. It broke *something* inside. It was like fire... like an explosion, coursing through me. And then... nothing.
The next moment... I woke up in the same cell, in my corner. There was blood... so much blood. I looked around... and I saw it.
A corpse, torn apart... dismembered. Body parts scattered around it, guts and limbs...
I looked at it, and felt... satisfaction. I knew... I *knew* I'd done that. I was proud of it. And then it all gave way to horror. (She pauses, briefly unable to look at you) I- I thought I had killed you, Charname.
I looked at the face... what I could see of it, and it wasn't *your* face. It was someone else, one of those thieves that were brought there, maybe... but it wasn't you. (Relief visibly pours through her) It wasn't you.
Irenicus was outside the cell, along with Bodhi. He nodded and she grinned, baring those awful fangs. She looked at him and said it was a fine display. He told me I had broken down the last wall. I was ready now.
They dragged me into that chamber under the asylum and sealed me in. I begged, pleaded for him to just... stop. He said it would be over soon.
I don't know what happened after that. The world blurred, and everything just... melts in my brain. My next clear memory is of getting tossed into the maze with you. The *real* you.
I- I shouldn't have given in. I should have seen through... whatever it was. You would never say those things to me, right?
But you were the last hope I was holding onto. And he knew it. And he used it against me.
(Imoen takes a deep breath and lets it go slowly, her eyes are shimmering with moisture.)
There's a few things I'm not sure of with this, and of course if this was somehow going to be in the mod then player responses, etc would also have to be adjusted accordingly.
But it's something I guess. I wanted to keep as much of the original mod's style and words and tone intact where possible, because it's really good and affecting stuff. It was this part where the mod really grabbed me, and the last thing I'd ever want to do is to gut the emotional force that got me to stick around in the first place.
i'm now curious when Back to Brynnlaw came out compared to Kulyok's other mods. if it was her first then it's explainable as those are always rough. contrast that her final mod reunion which i consider canon.
This is great! I like the fact that the trick was custom made for her and might not have worked on someone without a strong faith in charname. And in response charname will have the chance to reinforce her trust (or tell her that was exactly what they would have done
(When I edit a post and submit it just disappears and says it will appear "when approved"? Sorry if duplicate posts appear later if it happens I'll try to edit them empty ASAP)
Still any hope for this to happen some time soon ? I miss those forum discussions and would love to back them up. There were so many nice ideas around Imoen's character there.
Thanks! I wasn't planning on rewriting the player responses drastically. Something like that would absolutely cause her to abandon you and the worst you can do in this talk is brush her off, which understandably causes her to be angry with you.
I wish the mod wasn't on life support or the authors so hard to contact. Since there seems to be support for the idea here at least, I'd be willing to offer it up for their consideration.
you can find the author's email here, but from what he said in his blog he had considered rewriting but didn't do it because it involved another author's work, so I guess it would be at least tricky to make a change like this.
in TOB portion a certain PDA option won't do anything, and if I choose it, next time PDA options will remain the same ones instead of a new set. I believe this is caused by PidTreesGeneral.d, line 75:
+ ~IsGabber(Player1) Global("ImoenRomanceActive","GLOBAL",2) RealGlobalTimerExpired("IRTPDATimer","GLOBAL") Global("IRTPDA","GLOBAL",7)~ + ~(Just lay one hand on her shoulder, giving her a soft supportive squeeze.)~ DO ~SetGlobal("bf251","GLOBAL",1) RealSetGlobalTimer("IRTPDATimer","GLOBAL",600)~ + PDA7-1for every other optionSetGlobal("bf251","GLOBAL",1)should beIncrementGlobal("IRTPDA","GLOBAL",1)can't find any other references to this "bf251" so it doesn't look like an Easter egg or somethingI created an account specifically to tell you that I thought this was good shit
Hmm. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that permission issues could stand in the way, given the mod's rather messy history.
But even if that wasn't a problem, the mod seems to have been considered content complete for years now. Israel's blog hasn't been updated in over 3 years either, which isn't a good sign toward Israel being active. I imagine Israel considers his part done and doesn't want to be bothered about the mod any longer, and that's something I totally understand and respect.
I'd also like to offer a bug report. There's a small dialogue that never triggers. It's in SoA after the player initiates dialogue with Imoen about staying at an inn, and the player agrees to and then sleeps at an inn:
SAY ~Aaah... (Imoen stretches) last night was great!~
=
~(She positions herself behind you and unapologetically grabs your butt) And I'm not just talkin' about the bed, sweetcheeks!~
=
~Mm-hmm, what a wonderful way to start the day.~
IF ~~ THEN DO ~SetGlobal("MRQuality5Sleep","GLOBAL",3)~ EXIT
END
END
I've never got this to happen, even when I immediately go into an inn to rest after talking to her.
the banter about ranger stronghold consists of 2 parts and the they used different variables ("MRStrongholdTalkUmar" and "MRStrongholdTalkRan") so the latter part won't fire
Edit:
I know there won't be more content-wise changes but many stronghold banters assume charname acquired their stronghold while Imoen was absent, so if she was actually in the team the banter can be really weird, like, she would ask what could the Planar Sphere do or where the ranger's cabin was, right after finishing the corresponding quest.