How good is a skald in HoF really? I'm generally a big supporter of Skald but I thought it might be time to properly criticise the decision to include a Skald in the party.
- Skald song contributes 4*party attacks to a max of 200/round (more if your summons land some hits) - DPS characters can do up to 600/round (though 200+ is more reasonable) - the THAC0 bonus helps early game especially while dualing - the AC bonus helps immensely (lacking it would require significantly more micromanagement in terms of short term buffs and/or party positioning) - not sure how useful immunities are - having a bard is useful for some dialogue options
If an alternative was to be considered I'd look in 2 directions: - a different sort of bard, probably Blade - another DPS character
A Blade with 2*Longsword of Action+4, 19 strength, courage, hope, gauntlets and Tensers with IH would be at 10 APR doing 300 damage per round (are Offensive Spin and IH exclusive or just that their APR qualities don't stack?)
Such a character would also make an excellent tank and provide bard dialogue options.
An issue with this approach of course is that the Longswords of Action +4 are highly coveted so the opportunity cost must be considered. In my current parties case it's the Swashbuckler 10/Mage who would miss out who is arguably a better candidate for them given the permanent +2 att/dam rather than relying on a possibly exclusive buff.
- Skald song contributes 4*party attacks to a max of 200/round (more if your summons land some hits)
Isn't it 5*? Assuming you don't have another dud sitting around, of course. ~200 per round for a DPS is a reasonable estimate, and Skald can match that fairly easily - all the while increasing AC, and not taking any gear away whatsoever, nor needing to wait to get that gear, or needing buffs like IH on them, or (very important!) getting in the way around mobs.
Speaking of IH, the bard replacing a mage entirely is not unreasonable. I haven't paid too much attention to scroll availability, you may still want a mage dual I guess for other reasons. Still, depending on party setup it's definitely a consideration.
Also, as you mentioned, the early game is made quite a bit easier with the song. Since that's usually where you're slowest and least efficient (due to not having all the tools yet), that is not an insignificant point. The dialogue options are mostly RP, I'm not even sure they let you squeeze out more XP (and if so it's probably an irrelevantly small bonus).
I don't think a Blade is a consideration. They're worse than a F/M dual in almost all respects. Defensive Spin is no substitute for the abilities of other tanks, and Offensive Spin doesn't work with Haste.
I think that while Skalds may not EXACTLY match a fully buffed DPS at endgame, the fact that they contribute a large amount of damage so easily and so independently of gear/positioning/buffs makes them valuable already, and the AC bonus and buffing capabilities make them even better. I'm going to test how well they can replace a real mage, too, which seems a very interesting option.
- Skald song contributes 4*party attacks to a max of 200/round (more if your summons land some hits)
Isn't it 5*? Assuming you don't have another dud sitting around, of course. ~200 per round for a DPS is a reasonable estimate, and Skald can match that fairly easily - all the while increasing AC, and not taking any gear away whatsoever, nor needing to wait to get that gear, or needing buffs like IH on them, or (very important!) getting in the way around mobs.
Speaking of IH, the bard replacing a mage entirely is not unreasonable. I haven't paid too much attention to scroll availability, you may still want a mage dual I guess for other reasons. Still, depending on party setup it's definitely a consideration.
Also, as you mentioned, the early game is made quite a bit easier with the song. Since that's usually where you're slowest and least efficient (due to not having all the tools yet), that is not an insignificant point. The dialogue options are mostly RP, I'm not even sure they let you squeeze out more XP (and if so it's probably an irrelevantly small bonus).
I don't think a Blade is a consideration. They're worse than a F/M dual in almost all respects. Defensive Spin is no substitute for the abilities of other tanks, and Offensive Spin doesn't work with Haste.
I think that while Skalds may not EXACTLY match a fully buffed DPS at endgame, the fact that they contribute a large amount of damage so easily and so independently of gear/positioning/buffs makes them valuable already, and the AC bonus and buffing capabilities make them even better. I'm going to test how well they can replace a real mage, too, which seems a very interesting option.
Well having a kensei/Mage for BBoD seems a reason in itself?
Arriving at the point where I expect the game to be focused less on challenge and more on efficiency I can say that 200 per round is a starting point for a DPS character. 300 should be doable for most DPS while 400+ is reachable by some specific builds.
Speaking of which; out of curiosity, where does an Archer sit?
Overall I do definitely agree with your points and I don't think I'd seriously consider a level 1 HoF run without a Skald but it just seems worthwhile to analyse choices that we take for granted.
My party with Swash10/Mage, Kensei13/Mage and Skald seems a bit Arcane heavy at times but im not sure about alternatives. Skald isn't a good candidate for the only IH scroll as doesn't get 5 level 6 slots until like level 25. If you can wait that long though he's perfect for PI+IH combo. Swash/Mage also isn't a good IHer as she'd prefer to keep her slots for tensers. That leaves the kensage who seems the most superfluous of the bunch if you did want to consider other characters but annoyingly makes the best candidate for dropping IH and can max out her DPS at close to 600 per round.
I'm really doubtful that a thiefless run would qualify as an increase in efficiency. Certainly it would be less fun I think. Though, maybe cats grace and luck could raise the familiars stats up enough to get most of the traps in the game?
If you do take a thief then I find it hard to prefer a Swash/fighter over a Swash/Mage or even a Swash/cleric. I especially like that my Swash/Mage is at 10 APR buffed with all if the benefits of being a high level caster.
Skald song contributes 4*x where x is the number of attacks the party has. If a party has 50 attacks (every character having 10 APR from fast weapons and IH) then it's 200. If if you don't bother with IH then it's 100. However, and this is the important point, if you only IH one or two main damage dealers then it'll be 120 or 140 while the damage dealers damage per round might be 300 or 400 (if you say have 2 kensei/clerics rocking DUHM, RM, IH etc).
I run a Skald in my HoF game and I'm wondering if it's replaceable. It hit level 15 in the Severed Hand and the +4 boni to Hit/Damage/AC do make life easier. Yes, another hitter could bring more damage. But it couldn't really be a melee hitter since I already have 2/3 characters for that. It's already too crowded for my taste. So that leaves the Archer. Really, I think I'm getting more and more lazy to cast buffs and such so the Skald is perfect in that regard.
It can replace a Mage yes, at least in HoF, since you won't be getting enough scrolls anyway. Unless you tri-class the Mage of course. The only drawback is that the total number of spells you can cast is lower. You get a few more levels but not that much until you hit high levels.
Well having a kensei/Mage for BBoD seems a reason in itself?
Possibly. Where do you get the scroll for that, HoW? I completely ignored scrolls last playthrough because I only had a Sorcerer, and I can't remember anything (plus I had to finish it within one weekend...).
Arriving at the point where I expect the game to be focused less on challenge and more on efficiency I can say that 200 per round is a starting point for a DPS character. 300 should be doable for most DPS while 400+ is reachable by some specific builds.
That's fully buffed though, under ideal scenarios. The strength of the Skald is that the bonus is basically always present, without buffs, positioning, etc. etc. - and also without gear, and fairly low level requirement (15 is fairly quickly to reach with a rogue). I think that while you're correct about endgame numbers, if you average it out over the entire game the numbers will be much lower. At endgame you're already so highly efficient that packs just melt, but at early/mid game the Skald adds significant amounts of damage.
Speaking of which; out of curiosity, where does an Archer sit?
Against anything that's not a skeleton, they're doing very well. They reach both max hit and max APR very quickly, and have no OH swings either. Plus they usually get several hits in during positioning already, don't lose any damage switching targets, and completely trivialize casters (with 5 APR you can lock down even two casters at a time easily). Their damage per hit is lower than buffed melee largely due to STR not affecting bows, but since they get more hits in it equalizes fairly well. Damage also increases with levels fairly nicely. The biggest downside is the dearth of good ammunition, that can get very annoying
Overall I do definitely agree with your points and I don't think I'd seriously consider a level 1 HoF run without a Skald but it just seems worthwhile to analyse choices that we take for granted.
Absolutely. Everything should be questioned and critically analyzed, there's always new aspects and new things to discover. Discussing these things is never time wasted, I don't think.
I'm really doubtful that a thiefless run would qualify as an increase in efficiency. Certainly it would be less fun I think. Though, maybe cats grace and luck could raise the familiars stats up enough to get most of the traps in the game?
Do the traps really reduce your efficiency by that much though? There's a few icky spots to be sure, but you can always pop a Find Traps with your cleric and micro around them. It's not that hard to do.
If you do take a thief then I find it hard to prefer a Swash/fighter over a Swash/Mage or even a Swash/cleric. I especially like that my Swash/Mage is at 10 APR buffed with all if the benefits of being a high level caster.
I don't like Sw->M because they're so weak in the early game. You basically have to carry them all through Chapters 0, 1 and 2, which are already the least efficient. I also don't like relying on buffs all the time on everyone, plus arcane casters don't scale all that well in multiples because the party buffs are already at very high uptime due to their 1h duration (unlike the cleric prayers, which are shorter and need multiples to cover uptime effectively). IH is obviously limited by scroll availability.
Skald song contributes 4*x where x is the number of attacks the party has. If a party has 50 attacks (every character having 10 APR from fast weapons and IH) then it's 200. If if you don't bother with IH then it's 100. However, and this is the important point, if you only IH one or two main damage dealers then it'll be 120 or 140 while the damage dealers damage per round might be 300 or 400 (if you say have 2 kensei/clerics rocking DUHM, RM, IH etc).
Ah, I see what you mean, of course. But well, as I said, those numbers only apply at endgame, while you reach Skald peak fairly early on. Also, you cannot forget the THAC0 bonus, which makes the Skald's contribution scale not only with APR but also DPH (damage per hit), assuming you're not on 95% hit chance already. It's definitely not a HUGE increase, but it's not insignificant either - and, again, you get that basically with no effort/gear required, at virtually 100% uptime.
@Lord_Tansheron Skalds contribution does depend on gear etc as it's relative to overall party APR which is impacted significantly by gear and what have you.
Level 1 party with 2 APR each: 20 damage/round Level 9 party with 4 APR each: 40 damage/round Level 15 party with 9 APR each on average: 180 damage/round
Undoubtedly it's an awesome buff which is why we have it but it's best opportunity to shine is when all 5 party members are attacking with their highest possible APR, if you're holding someone back to cast or need to reposition them then the bard is losing his DPS too.
BBoD is purchaseable from Burial Isle. There are a heap of good scrolls available for purchase there and in the inn including IH and PI meaning there isn't much excuse not to play a mage as you can pop over there early enough to sort yourself out. Only noticeable missing scroll is stoneskin which can be picked up at the end of ToL.
I chose a Sorcerer over Bard. Just like the way it handles magic so much better. I'm not sure I would roll with 2 Arcane users in HOF, personally. Not enough scrolls to go around unless one is the Bard and the Song is he buff. Then he can also get the emotion buffs and leave the other buffs and summons to your other Arcane user. Plus I just ate hunting for scrolls at shops. Its kind of dumb.
EE should have allowed shops to stock based upon party EXP not what Chapter you are on. Problem solved. Now its like you have to go to 4-5 shops for a mage.
I really like the Dual F->C. You can get buy with only 7 levels in Fighter too. Cleric has DuHM and Holy Power that gives you equivalent fighter Thaco. Just use HP before DuHm or you will nerf your STR. Can easily GM in Flails and Slings. Plus Ghost Armor and Entropy and Regeneration. Not to mention all of the party buffs.
I def would take F->C over K->Mage and probably even a multi F/M. Considering you can do HoW and TotL out of order you really won't find any self spells for the K->M or F/M. Spirit Armor, Blur, and Mirror Image. I mean StoneSkin is not till very end of Severed Hand Chapter. You can do expansion right after the Vale when Chapter 2 starts if you wanted I did.
Same thing with Mass Invisibility and Emotion Scrolls, Haste & I. Haste . The Sorcerer is getting them all well well before the Skald/Bard. If scrolls aren't an issue I think I would still take multi F/M over Bard/Skald. F/M can be buffer/summoner and secondary ranged character crossbow or backup melee. At least you have your fighter's Thaco.
I think the only area a Bard helps in is if you perhaps already had Cleric buffing. A sorcerer buffing. Then Bard/Skald buffing. Then you are talking about Triple the buffs that stack with each other.
But if your party has Zero Clerics, Bards, or Sorcerers and you had 1 spot left. The Bard would be your last choice. Everything he can do a F/C or Sorcerer can do better and earlier in the game.
Thought up this party to fit in a Bard/Skald:
Dwarven Defender Archer F->Druid Swashbuckler 10 ->Cleric (weird I know but works clerics have best self buffs) Sorcerer Bard or Skald
DD is the best single class tank that you dont have to do anything separate too. The Archer is probably the best DPS character. Lowest Thaco and earliest to max Attacks. Very few enemies need magical arrows. F->D can dual scimitars or daggers and tank with IronSkin & Entropy & Ghost Armor. S/C can tank 2 pips in say Flails or Hammers and 3 pips in two weapon (2 in slings). A little low on HP. But DuHM and Holy Power both boost HP and give him Fighter Thaco. Plus his other buffs (Entropy & Ghost Shield) and party buffs. Sorcerer the king of emotions, hastes, invisibilities, summons, and crowd controls (grease, web etc)
Then you got your Bard/Skald singing away with backup mage buffs.
You are probably talking party buffs stacked around +10-12 for Hit/Damage/AC. I didn't do the exact calculations but it has to be high.
I chose a Sorcerer over Bard. Just like the way it handles magic so much better. I'm not sure I would roll with 2 Arcane users in HOF, personally. Not enough scrolls to go around unless one is the Bard and the Song is he buff. Then he can also get the emotion buffs and leave the other buffs and summons to your other Arcane user. Plus I just ate hunting for scrolls at shops. Its kind of dumb.
EE should have allowed shops to stock based upon party EXP not what Chapter you are on. Problem solved. Now its like you have to go to 4-5 shops for a mage.
I really like the Dual F->C. You can get buy with only 7 levels in Fighter too. Cleric has DuHM and Holy Power that gives you equivalent fighter Thaco. Just use HP before DuHm or you will nerf your STR. Can easily GM in Flails and Slings. Plus Ghost Armor and Entropy and Regeneration. Not to mention all of the party buffs.
I def would take F->C over K->Mage and probably even a multi F/M. Considering you can do HoW and TotL out of order you really won't find any self spells for the K->M or F/M. Spirit Armor, Blur, and Mirror Image. I mean StoneSkin is not till very end of Severed Hand Chapter. You can do expansion right after the Vale when Chapter 2 starts if you wanted I did.
Same thing with Mass Invisibility and Emotion Scrolls, Haste & I. Haste . The Sorcerer is getting them all well well before the Skald/Bard. If scrolls aren't an issue I think I would still take multi F/M over Bard/Skald. F/M can be buffer/summoner and secondary ranged character crossbow or backup melee. At least you have your fighter's Thaco.
I think the only area a Bard helps in is if you perhaps already had Cleric buffing. A sorcerer buffing. Then Bard/Skald buffing. Then you are talking about Triple the buffs that stack with each other.
But if your party has Zero Clerics, Bards, or Sorcerers and you had 1 spot left. The Bard would be your last choice. Everything he can do a F/C or Sorcerer can do better and earlier in the game.
Thought up this party to fit in a Bard/Skald:
Dwarven Defender Archer F->Druid Swashbuckler 10 ->Cleric (weird I know but works clerics have best self buffs) Sorcerer Bard or Skald
DD is the best single class tank that you dont have to do anything separate too. The Archer is probably the best DPS character. Lowest Thaco and earliest to max Attacks. Very few enemies need magical arrows. F->D can dual scimitars or daggers and tank with IronSkin & Entropy & Ghost Armor. S/C can tank 2 pips in say Flails or Hammers and 3 pips in two weapon (2 in slings). A little low on HP. But DuHM and Holy Power both boost HP and give him Fighter Thaco. Plus his other buffs (Entropy & Ghost Shield) and party buffs. Sorcerer the king of emotions, hastes, invisibilities, summons, and crowd controls (grease, web etc)
Then you got your Bard/Skald singing away with backup mage buffs.
You are probably talking party buffs stacked around +10-12 for Hit/Damage/AC. I didn't do the exact calculations but it has to be high.
There is no buff that a sorcerer can provide that a bard can't. In fact, the only tricky one is Improved Haste but that's available in the expansion for purchase along with Project Image which together lets your bard keep the party buffed for significant stretches of play without resting.
Last time I checked Swashbucklers can only have 2 pips in a melee thief weapon regardless of if they dual. This means clubs on a cleric dual (or staff, I guess). If a swashcler could specialise in cleric weapons I'd definitely support the build but otherwise id promote swashmage over it as you can use the dual longswords for action for max APR. You definitely don't want to be stuck using a fast flail on a thief and still not hit max APR.
Druid is a better tank than DD. With the various forms, Ironskins and Entropic shield the DD is really superfluous and ends up just being a character without Grandmastery.
Archer is not the best DPS. Instead it's convenient and regular DPS. Kensei/Mage and Kensei/ Cleric are you best options for max damage characters.
Yeah dang forgot only thief weapons are sling, club, and quarter staff that a cleric can actually use. So I guess 2 pips in clubs, slings and 1 in off hand weapon.
If you dual over at level 10 it's still +3 to AC, to hit, and damage.
Clerics Holy Power for fighter thaco and DuHM for str, dex, con buff. Both also increase HP. Ghost armor and entropy as well.
I'm not in super support of the class but it does allow some more party options. Since your rolling both support classes into 1 char. And makes the weak thief class strong. Dual to fighter he still can't tank no self buffs. Even Mage he can be squishy not like in BG2 where end game Mage dominates.
Good point on the archer as it's not really his DPS but entire game damage dealt. End game he would easily rank top 3, most likely 2 for overall damage dealt. Like you said so consistent.
If there were auto ammo magical bows or magical quivers +1-3. The archer would be fierce. Only needed cause in HOF you can go through 5k arrows every dungeon easily.
Yeah dang forgot only thief weapons are sling, club, and quarter staff that a cleric can actually use. So I guess 2 pips in clubs, slings and 1 in off hand weapon.
If you dual over at level 10 it's still +3 to AC, to hit, and damage.
Clerics Holy Power for fighter thaco and DuHM for str, dex, con buff. Both also increase HP. Ghost armor and entropy as well.
I'm not in super support of the class but it does allow some more party options. Since your rolling both support classes into 1 char. And makes the weak thief class strong. Dual to fighter he still can't tank no self buffs. Even Mage he can be squishy not like in BG2 where end game Mage dominates.
Good point on the archer as it's not really his DPS but entire game damage dealt. End game he would easily rank top 3, most likely 2 for overall damage dealt. Like you said so consistent.
If there were auto ammo magical bows or magical quivers +1-3. The archer would be fierce. Only needed cause in HOF you can go through 5k arrows every dungeon easily.
This is a misconception that I read regularly. Cleric is not a support class, it's more like one of the best classes in IWD. It'd be super strong in BG2 too except for the prevalence of mages.
Swash/Mage is super strong, I don't see the issue. Stoneskin, mirror image and go to town. It only gets better from there with Tensers etc. 2*longsword of action+4, IH and tensers and you're on 10 APR. Throw in some damage buffs and you're on easy street. Offhand longsword of action, BBoD and ring of reckless action and DPS is up there with the best.
Swashmage with tensers has more HP than swashcler. You don't get the HP benefits of DUHM unless you have the fighter levels for high con.
It depends how many mages you want to Have. Not enough scrolls for them all. And if you want to waste the 2 best long swords on them. Unt there only 1 tensers? Unless EE there is more I don't know.
And if you do areas out of order like jumping to HOW early you won't even come across tensers or bbod. I jumped to how after the vale.
So you don't have access to those chapter 3-4 scrolls.
What I think I'm trying to get at is just because it's HOF you still have plenty of party combinations.
You don't need the perfect party with max attacks. Most dungeons are small and if you have a half dozen large summons it's tough to get everyone in the action every single fight. Unless your spending the time to lure the enemy in a predetermined spot.
It depends how many mages you want to Have. Not enough scrolls for them all. And if you want to waste the 2 best long swords on them. Unt there only 1 tensers? Unless EE there is more I don't know.
And if you do areas out of order like jumping to HOW early you won't even come across tensers or bbod. I jumped to how after the vale.
So you don't have access to those chapter 3-4 scrolls.
What I think I'm trying to get at is just because it's HOF you still have plenty of party combinations.
You don't need the perfect party with max attacks. Most dungeons are small and if you have a half dozen large summons it's tough to get everyone in the action every single fight. Unless your spending the time to lure the enemy in a predetermined spot.
No, just no. HoW/ToL has BBoD and IH for sale and 2 Tensers and spells like Chain Contingency to loot.
I have 3 arcanes in my HoF party and there's plenty of scrolls to go around without even getting to chapter 3 despite having 3 level 9 slots on both wizards and almost having level 8 slots on my skald (I'm really hoping that songs will stack from a simulacrum lol!).
At this stage I'm usually not bothering with summons. -18 AC on my Druid with Ironskins makes him pretty unstoppable and IH on everyone means a pretty fast progression, summons would just slow it down.
Anyone that can make use of a longsword already has max APR (waiting on valiant and the second fast flail for the Druid and second cleric. Kensage only has 4.5 APR but buffs to 5 with tensers).
I know this is a huge necro, but I tried a HoF from Level 1. I'm stuck in the Prologue caves and I don't see how I can win the fight.
My party: Elven Sorcerer Level 4 Half-Orc berserker Dwarven Fighter/Cleric Dwarven Fighter/Thief Human Kensai (level 5 at the moment), plan to dual to mage. Using single weapon style with long swords to boost AC. Human Berserker (also level 5, planned to dual to druid)
The problem I'm having is that I've managed to clear out the entire cave except for the last fight with the 4 ogres. I just can't seem to kill them! If I pull the mobs, and then exit the caves, every single monster disappears instantly. So, if I pull the mobs, head for the exit, and come back in again - every single remaining monster is gone.
My F/C has level 2 spells - no summons! My sorc also has a single level spell - I chose Horror. Horror works, but its not enough. I have the F/C cast Hold Person, which holds a few orcs, and the Sorc cast Horror, which disables a few. Color Spray stuns them for one round if I'm lucky - apparently these Orcs have HD over 6?
After reading some of the posts in this thread, I think I'll restart and remove the multi F/T. Might change one or two other characters too. But how do I beat that last fight???
EDIT: Restarted and then restarted again.
First restart I had the following: Human Dragon Disciple Human Kensai (to dual to mage) Human Kensai (to dual to Druid) Half-orc F/C Human Swashbuckler (to dual to either fighter or mage) Elven Archer
I got into the Orc Cave and got as far as the large battle in the middle. The one with no ogres, but with Orc Shamans. This time I chose Glitterdust as my first Level 2 spell instead of Horror. Its just impossible to do this battle without Horror. Glitterdust lowers their THAC0, sure, but they still kill me. Horror disables enough of the enemies that it becomes possible to win this battle.
So I've restarted using the same team as above, but this time I'll pick Horror instead of Glitterdust.
It is not true, as stated earlier in this thread, that spell damage is useless in Heart of Fury mode in IWD2. On the contrary, it has great potential.
The thing about IWD is that enemies routinely come in large groups, at all stages of the game. Ten enemies in one pack is by no means unusual. A simple level 10 Fireball does 35 damage on average with a save for half. For a normal pack of enemies, that's 170-350 damage, depending on saves, or about 260 damage assuming the enemies save half the time. A fighter cannot manage that at level 10.
Granted, it's more effective to concentrate fire on a single opponent, to kill one rather than damage many. But if you use a caster-heavy party, you can bring down a whole group of HoF enemies in 1-3 rounds, depending on party makeup. Magic-resistant enemies will be a problem, but they are fairly rare in IWD, compared to enemies in BG2.
And that's just for Fireball. That's not counting Skull Trap, Sunfire, Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, or Meteor Swarm. A mage might have few such spells due to the lack of scrolls in IWD, but a sorcerer can cast these spells continuously, round after round.
To take an extreme example, a party of level 10 sorcerers could deal over 1500 fire damage per round for 6 rounds before running out of Fireball spells. At higher levels, the output would be even greater and last far longer.
That's not the whole story, of course. You would want some divine casters in the group for healing and Protection from Fire spells so the party can bomb itself safely. But it does illustrate the potential of damage spells in HoF mode.
HoF enemies are incredibly hard to kill, but IWD enemies come in such large groups that area-effect spells have a dramatically larger impact than they first appear. I have played through IWD on all difficulties, and Fireball and Sunfire alone, to say nothing of other damage spells, can bring most encounters to an end in short order, just like a well-equipped team of fighter types.
@Ancalagon44: Yes, IWD:EE. The same basic factor is at hand for both games: their tendency to throw large numbers of grunts at you, which makes area-effect damage more useful.
In IWD2, though, HoF has a more detrimental impact on spell damage productivity, as the enemies make their saving throws more often. IWD1 has no save bonuses for HoF mode, so the impact isn't quite as strong.
@Wowo: Not in IWD:EE. Just IWD2. I just used CTRL-Q to check the saves on an enemy Blue Myconid, with and without Heart of Fury mode active.
The HoF Myconid enjoys the standard HP bonus, plus a bonus +5 to THAC0 and one extra attack per round. But not only does the HoF Myconid have no save bonuses, its saving throws are actually worse than the normal Myconid's. I'm not sure why this is.
I do believe HoF enemies get extra levels, like Nightmare mode enemies do in the BG games. But for monsters, who have no saving throw tables, level bonuses, like level drain, do not influence saving throws.
Comments
- Skald song contributes 4*party attacks to a max of 200/round (more if your summons land some hits)
- DPS characters can do up to 600/round (though 200+ is more reasonable)
- the THAC0 bonus helps early game especially while dualing
- the AC bonus helps immensely (lacking it would require significantly more micromanagement in terms of short term buffs and/or party positioning)
- not sure how useful immunities are
- having a bard is useful for some dialogue options
If an alternative was to be considered I'd look in 2 directions:
- a different sort of bard, probably Blade
- another DPS character
A Blade with 2*Longsword of Action+4, 19 strength, courage, hope, gauntlets and Tensers with IH would be at 10 APR doing 300 damage per round (are Offensive Spin and IH exclusive or just that their APR qualities don't stack?)
Such a character would also make an excellent tank and provide bard dialogue options.
An issue with this approach of course is that the Longswords of Action +4 are highly coveted so the opportunity cost must be considered. In my current parties case it's the Swashbuckler 10/Mage who would miss out who is arguably a better candidate for them given the permanent +2 att/dam rather than relying on a possibly exclusive buff.
Thoughts?
Speaking of IH, the bard replacing a mage entirely is not unreasonable. I haven't paid too much attention to scroll availability, you may still want a mage dual I guess for other reasons. Still, depending on party setup it's definitely a consideration.
Also, as you mentioned, the early game is made quite a bit easier with the song. Since that's usually where you're slowest and least efficient (due to not having all the tools yet), that is not an insignificant point. The dialogue options are mostly RP, I'm not even sure they let you squeeze out more XP (and if so it's probably an irrelevantly small bonus).
I don't think a Blade is a consideration. They're worse than a F/M dual in almost all respects. Defensive Spin is no substitute for the abilities of other tanks, and Offensive Spin doesn't work with Haste.
I think that while Skalds may not EXACTLY match a fully buffed DPS at endgame, the fact that they contribute a large amount of damage so easily and so independently of gear/positioning/buffs makes them valuable already, and the AC bonus and buffing capabilities make them even better. I'm going to test how well they can replace a real mage, too, which seems a very interesting option.
Arriving at the point where I expect the game to be focused less on challenge and more on efficiency I can say that 200 per round is a starting point for a DPS character. 300 should be doable for most DPS while 400+ is reachable by some specific builds.
Speaking of which; out of curiosity, where does an Archer sit?
Overall I do definitely agree with your points and I don't think I'd seriously consider a level 1 HoF run without a Skald but it just seems worthwhile to analyse choices that we take for granted.
My party with Swash10/Mage, Kensei13/Mage and Skald seems a bit Arcane heavy at times but im not sure about alternatives. Skald isn't a good candidate for the only IH scroll as doesn't get 5 level 6 slots until like level 25. If you can wait that long though he's perfect for PI+IH combo. Swash/Mage also isn't a good IHer as she'd prefer to keep her slots for tensers. That leaves the kensage who seems the most superfluous of the bunch if you did want to consider other characters but annoyingly makes the best candidate for dropping IH and can max out her DPS at close to 600 per round.
I'm really doubtful that a thiefless run would qualify as an increase in efficiency. Certainly it would be less fun I think. Though, maybe cats grace and luck could raise the familiars stats up enough to get most of the traps in the game?
If you do take a thief then I find it hard to prefer a Swash/fighter over a Swash/Mage or even a Swash/cleric. I especially like that my Swash/Mage is at 10 APR buffed with all if the benefits of being a high level caster.
Skald song contributes 4*x where x is the number of attacks the party has. If a party has 50 attacks (every character having 10 APR from fast weapons and IH) then it's 200. If if you don't bother with IH then it's 100. However, and this is the important point, if you only IH one or two main damage dealers then it'll be 120 or 140 while the damage dealers damage per round might be 300 or 400 (if you say have 2 kensei/clerics rocking DUHM, RM, IH etc).
It hit level 15 in the Severed Hand and the +4 boni to Hit/Damage/AC do make life easier.
Yes, another hitter could bring more damage. But it couldn't really be a melee hitter since I already have 2/3 characters for that. It's already too crowded for my taste. So that leaves the Archer.
Really, I think I'm getting more and more lazy to cast buffs and such so the Skald is perfect in that regard.
It can replace a Mage yes, at least in HoF, since you won't be getting enough scrolls anyway. Unless you tri-class the Mage of course. The only drawback is that the total number of spells you can cast is lower.
You get a few more levels but not that much until you hit high levels.
Level 1 party with 2 APR each: 20 damage/round
Level 9 party with 4 APR each: 40 damage/round
Level 15 party with 9 APR each on average: 180 damage/round
Undoubtedly it's an awesome buff which is why we have it but it's best opportunity to shine is when all 5 party members are attacking with their highest possible APR, if you're holding someone back to cast or need to reposition them then the bard is losing his DPS too.
BBoD is purchaseable from Burial Isle. There are a heap of good scrolls available for purchase there and in the inn including IH and PI meaning there isn't much excuse not to play a mage as you can pop over there early enough to sort yourself out. Only noticeable missing scroll is stoneskin which can be picked up at the end of ToL.
EE should have allowed shops to stock based upon party EXP not what Chapter you are on. Problem solved. Now its like you have to go to 4-5 shops for a mage.
I really like the Dual F->C. You can get buy with only 7 levels in Fighter too. Cleric has DuHM and Holy Power that gives you equivalent fighter Thaco. Just use HP before DuHm or you will nerf your STR. Can easily GM in Flails and Slings. Plus Ghost Armor and Entropy and Regeneration. Not to mention all of the party buffs.
I def would take F->C over K->Mage and probably even a multi F/M. Considering you can do HoW and TotL out of order you really won't find any self spells for the K->M or F/M. Spirit Armor, Blur, and Mirror Image. I mean StoneSkin is not till very end of Severed Hand Chapter. You can do expansion right after the Vale when Chapter 2 starts if you wanted I did.
Same thing with Mass Invisibility and Emotion Scrolls, Haste & I. Haste . The Sorcerer is getting them all well well before the Skald/Bard. If scrolls aren't an issue I think I would still take multi F/M over Bard/Skald. F/M can be buffer/summoner and secondary ranged character crossbow or backup melee. At least you have your fighter's Thaco.
I think the only area a Bard helps in is if you perhaps already had Cleric buffing. A sorcerer buffing. Then Bard/Skald buffing. Then you are talking about Triple the buffs that stack with each other.
But if your party has Zero Clerics, Bards, or Sorcerers and you had 1 spot left. The Bard would be your last choice. Everything he can do a F/C or Sorcerer can do better and earlier in the game.
Thought up this party to fit in a Bard/Skald:
Dwarven Defender
Archer
F->Druid
Swashbuckler 10 ->Cleric (weird I know but works clerics have best self buffs)
Sorcerer
Bard or Skald
DD is the best single class tank that you dont have to do anything separate too. The Archer is probably the best DPS character. Lowest Thaco and earliest to max Attacks. Very few enemies need magical arrows. F->D can dual scimitars or daggers and tank with IronSkin & Entropy & Ghost Armor. S/C can tank 2 pips in say Flails or Hammers and 3 pips in two weapon (2 in slings). A little low on HP. But DuHM and Holy Power both boost HP and give him Fighter Thaco. Plus his other buffs (Entropy & Ghost Shield) and party buffs. Sorcerer the king of emotions, hastes, invisibilities, summons, and crowd controls (grease, web etc)
Then you got your Bard/Skald singing away with backup mage buffs.
You are probably talking party buffs stacked around +10-12 for Hit/Damage/AC. I didn't do the exact calculations but it has to be high.
Last time I checked Swashbucklers can only have 2 pips in a melee thief weapon regardless of if they dual. This means clubs on a cleric dual (or staff, I guess). If a swashcler could specialise in cleric weapons I'd definitely support the build but otherwise id promote swashmage over it as you can use the dual longswords for action for max APR. You definitely don't want to be stuck using a fast flail on a thief and still not hit max APR.
Druid is a better tank than DD. With the various forms, Ironskins and Entropic shield the DD is really superfluous and ends up just being a character without Grandmastery.
Archer is not the best DPS. Instead it's convenient and regular DPS. Kensei/Mage and Kensei/
Cleric are you best options for max damage characters.
If you dual over at level 10 it's still +3 to AC, to hit, and damage.
Clerics Holy Power for fighter thaco and DuHM for str, dex, con buff. Both also increase HP. Ghost armor and entropy as well.
I'm not in super support of the class but it does allow some more party options. Since your rolling both support classes into 1 char. And makes the weak thief class strong. Dual to fighter he still can't tank no self buffs. Even Mage he can be squishy not like in BG2 where end game Mage dominates.
Good point on the archer as it's not really his DPS but entire game damage dealt. End game he would easily rank top 3, most likely 2 for overall damage dealt. Like you said so consistent.
If there were auto ammo magical bows or magical quivers +1-3. The archer would be fierce. Only needed cause in HOF you can go through 5k arrows every dungeon easily.
Swash/Mage is super strong, I don't see the issue. Stoneskin, mirror image and go to town. It only gets better from there with Tensers etc. 2*longsword of action+4, IH and tensers and you're on 10 APR. Throw in some damage buffs and you're on easy street. Offhand longsword of action, BBoD and ring of reckless action and DPS is up there with the best.
Swashmage with tensers has more HP than swashcler. You don't get the HP benefits of DUHM unless you have the fighter levels for high con.
And if you do areas out of order like jumping to HOW early you won't even come across tensers or bbod. I jumped to how after the vale.
So you don't have access to those chapter 3-4 scrolls.
What I think I'm trying to get at is just because it's HOF you still have plenty of party combinations.
You don't need the perfect party with max attacks. Most dungeons are small and if you have a half dozen large summons it's tough to get everyone in the action every single fight. Unless your spending the time to lure the enemy in a predetermined spot.
I have 3 arcanes in my HoF party and there's plenty of scrolls to go around without even getting to chapter 3 despite having 3 level 9 slots on both wizards and almost having level 8 slots on my skald (I'm really hoping that songs will stack from a simulacrum lol!).
At this stage I'm usually not bothering with summons. -18 AC on my Druid with Ironskins makes him pretty unstoppable and IH on everyone means a pretty fast progression, summons would just slow it down.
Anyone that can make use of a longsword already has max APR (waiting on valiant and the second fast flail for the Druid and second cleric. Kensage only has 4.5 APR but buffs to 5 with tensers).
My party:
Elven Sorcerer Level 4
Half-Orc berserker
Dwarven Fighter/Cleric
Dwarven Fighter/Thief
Human Kensai (level 5 at the moment), plan to dual to mage. Using single weapon style with long swords to boost AC.
Human Berserker (also level 5, planned to dual to druid)
The problem I'm having is that I've managed to clear out the entire cave except for the last fight with the 4 ogres. I just can't seem to kill them! If I pull the mobs, and then exit the caves, every single monster disappears instantly. So, if I pull the mobs, head for the exit, and come back in again - every single remaining monster is gone.
My F/C has level 2 spells - no summons! My sorc also has a single level spell - I chose Horror. Horror works, but its not enough. I have the F/C cast Hold Person, which holds a few orcs, and the Sorc cast Horror, which disables a few. Color Spray stuns them for one round if I'm lucky - apparently these Orcs have HD over 6?
After reading some of the posts in this thread, I think I'll restart and remove the multi F/T. Might change one or two other characters too. But how do I beat that last fight???
EDIT: Restarted and then restarted again.
First restart I had the following:
Human Dragon Disciple
Human Kensai (to dual to mage)
Human Kensai (to dual to Druid)
Half-orc F/C
Human Swashbuckler (to dual to either fighter or mage)
Elven Archer
I got into the Orc Cave and got as far as the large battle in the middle. The one with no ogres, but with Orc Shamans. This time I chose Glitterdust as my first Level 2 spell instead of Horror. Its just impossible to do this battle without Horror. Glitterdust lowers their THAC0, sure, but they still kill me. Horror disables enough of the enemies that it becomes possible to win this battle.
So I've restarted using the same team as above, but this time I'll pick Horror instead of Glitterdust.
The thing about IWD is that enemies routinely come in large groups, at all stages of the game. Ten enemies in one pack is by no means unusual. A simple level 10 Fireball does 35 damage on average with a save for half. For a normal pack of enemies, that's 170-350 damage, depending on saves, or about 260 damage assuming the enemies save half the time. A fighter cannot manage that at level 10.
Granted, it's more effective to concentrate fire on a single opponent, to kill one rather than damage many. But if you use a caster-heavy party, you can bring down a whole group of HoF enemies in 1-3 rounds, depending on party makeup. Magic-resistant enemies will be a problem, but they are fairly rare in IWD, compared to enemies in BG2.
And that's just for Fireball. That's not counting Skull Trap, Sunfire, Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting, Incendiary Cloud, or Meteor Swarm. A mage might have few such spells due to the lack of scrolls in IWD, but a sorcerer can cast these spells continuously, round after round.
To take an extreme example, a party of level 10 sorcerers could deal over 1500 fire damage per round for 6 rounds before running out of Fireball spells. At higher levels, the output would be even greater and last far longer.
That's not the whole story, of course. You would want some divine casters in the group for healing and Protection from Fire spells so the party can bomb itself safely. But it does illustrate the potential of damage spells in HoF mode.
HoF enemies are incredibly hard to kill, but IWD enemies come in such large groups that area-effect spells have a dramatically larger impact than they first appear. I have played through IWD on all difficulties, and Fireball and Sunfire alone, to say nothing of other damage spells, can bring most encounters to an end in short order, just like a well-equipped team of fighter types.
In IWD2, though, HoF has a more detrimental impact on spell damage productivity, as the enemies make their saving throws more often. IWD1 has no save bonuses for HoF mode, so the impact isn't quite as strong.
The HoF Myconid enjoys the standard HP bonus, plus a bonus +5 to THAC0 and one extra attack per round. But not only does the HoF Myconid have no save bonuses, its saving throws are actually worse than the normal Myconid's. I'm not sure why this is.
I do believe HoF enemies get extra levels, like Nightmare mode enemies do in the BG games. But for monsters, who have no saving throw tables, level bonuses, like level drain, do not influence saving throws.
Just to be sure did you check those saving throws on newly generated monsters or did you just turn HoF on and off?