Shadowdancer - isn't it a bit contradictory?
MrGoodkat
Member Posts: 167
You get a class that's perfectly suited for backstabbing or sneak attacking and its main disadvantage is a lower backstab multiplier? :O
Balance issues can't really be the answer. Even with a x7 multiplier it still wouldn't be nearly as broken as some other classes in the game.
Balance issues can't really be the answer. Even with a x7 multiplier it still wouldn't be nearly as broken as some other classes in the game.
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And balance issues definitely is a legit answer. Can you freaking imagine a solo run of BG2 where you can just backstab, HIPS, backstab, rinse and repeat? All you would need is a cloak of non-detection or some silliness like that and just hide every time you get seen. I don't care if you think Monk one-shots are OP or Berserker Rage is OP, or whatever else; an unnerfed Hide in Plain Sight Shadowdancer is STUPIDLY OP. Especially since it isn't a prestige class in this game, but a kit running on the same Thief XP table, which means they already level up faster than anyone else.
A solo F/M/T for example is 10x more ridiculous especially since IWD works with level caps instead of XP caps.
And even if balance issues *were* the reason a more efficient way to nerf Shadowdancers would have been to make them unable to dual-class for example. Or they could have made it so that you get HIPS at level 15 or something instead of right from the start. There are countless more possibilities you can make the class weaker without nerfing its core mechanic.
It just doesn't make sense. Reducing a Shadowdancer's backstab multiplier is like letting a Kensai only put 2 stars in weapon proficiencies instead of making him unable to wear armor or bracers. Technically there wouldn't be much of a difference, Kensai would still be strong, maybe even stronger, but it just doesn't fit.
I'm also sorry that you don't understand that there would have been a million other ways to make Shadowdancer weaker - weaker as they are right now even(no, I'm not implying Shadowdancers are weak, quite the contrary actually) - without touching the backstab multiplier. So even if you hold on to your opinion that balance issues are in fact the reason for a lower backstab multiplier that still doesn't explain why they didn't choose an option to address those balance issues that makes more sense thematically. See my posts above which you clearly didn't read. I feel like I need to repeat myself to make it clear: There are ways to balance a class without nerfing the aspect(s) it should excel in.
Oh and since we're being condescending to each another I'm expecting an answer along the lines of "Yeah, well... I didn't read your post at all BUT balance issues is the answer, sorry that you don't get it"
With a Cloak of Non-Detection a Shadowdancer seems pretty much invincible to me, and deadly.
Personally, and this is coming from someone whose favorite class is probably the thief class, I've never played with the kit either in BG or in IWD because it seemed overpowered to me, even with the reduced backstab multiplier. I can only see the Shadowdancer struggle against high level backstab-immune enemies (against whom other Thieves would use their traps).
Personally I've used mine for distracting enemies. That and moving my character in front of enemy characters so that they take longer to get to my group. But its biggest strength in BGEE and BG2EE (the ability to hide just before a spell is cast to cause disruption) doesn't get as much use in IWDEE. They also don't get the late game HLA's to give it something of benefit at higher levels.
For a single player game with a mulitplayer function that doesn't really support PvP or PvE, that is the only balancing that is needed.
If shadowdancer didn't have the backstab nerf, why would you play any other thief kit?
To set traps?
To use poison?
To pretend to be a fighter with no backstabbing ability at all?
Each kit is suppose to add a different flavour or element to the game that no other kit in its class provides.
When the Shadowdancer was first being introduced, they said if you were attempting to use it as a backstabbing machine, you were using it wrong. It was suppose to be a viable scout, one that would be able to reposition itself in battle with both its hide in plain sight and shadow step ability if needed. It wasn't being introduced to replace the assassin which was the backstabbing master (and still is). That is why the nerf to backstab was introduced.
No other kit has its main ability taken away until a late level either, so why would that be a suitable nerf for the Shadowdancer? Same with dualling. And its core mechanic isn't backstabbing, it is hiding, that is what it excels at and the two are not exclusive to each other.
And the monsters in IWDEE, they usually don't see invisible characters. You can easily explore every location being invisible. No "Detect Illusion" or "True Sight" constantly casted aroud by enemies in IWDEE, compared to BG. So the Shadowdancer is a good character, he can flourish when having high HiS/MS skills.
Not overpowered but still fine.
I think by not letting them lay traps AND having a lower thief point distribution is what kills it, honestly. Really when I tried it out in BG2EE I said to myself "this is the backstabbing tutorial kit..."; but I never thought it was *too* weak because the ability to stealth at any time is AWESOME. Any other class/kit attempting stealth? They have to run around a corner out of enemy sight and attempt to stealth, or quaff an invisibility potion. All Shadowdancers have to do is click a damn button.
That's not really the point I was making though, maybe I should have re-phrased my opening post a bit to make it more clear.
The whole class 'Shadowdancer' is built around backstab and sneak attack. Every unique trait they have, HIPS especially of course, gives you tools for it. Some people think that's too strong, some people think Shadowdancers are even weak, but it doesn't matter.
What I'm wondering is why they would give one of the prime backstabbing classes the disadvantage of being less proficient at backstabbing *instead* of something else. The only argument I've heard so far is that Shadowdancers don't get any sneak attack progression in 3rd edition. But then again you only need 1 level of Shadowdancer to grab HIPS and can then go back to Rogue or whatever. http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowdancer
@Stratosj: ;D Not sure if I'm gonna accept that and move on but at least you're answering the question. I appreciate that.
If you want a Shadow dancer to do massive damage, dual him to a Fighter at level 13 and get grand mastery in long swords. Or dual him to a mage and cast Black Blade of Disaster (if you can backstab with it).
My Shadow Dancer 10 -> Mage basically has free invisibility whenever he wants it, and the ability to instantly reposition himself on the battlefield twice per day. Shadowstep is more useful than Absolute Immunity because of that. You can shadow step, hide (which will render spells cast directly at you ineffective), and then cast another spell. Or backstab, Chromatic Orb (ie stun) and then disappear. Oh and you get evasion. Surrounded by enemies? Cast sunfire and then vanish. Then backstab one of them and Chromatic Orb his friend.
Frankly I don't take full advantage of that character!
How would you disadvantage the kit other than to alter the backstab multiplier?
Limit weapons to daggers and short swords? What other ideas would be viable?
Firstly, make it a Bard kit. Give it invisibility as a class ability, usable once per day for every three levels (because bards don't have stealth); retain the shadowstep ability; give it increased movement speed like monks; give it a Summon Shadow ability, based on the totemic druid summons. Drawbacks: half lore; only sing the first bard song; can only learn spells as if they where illusionists.
Not 100% on this, but it worked that way when I made a multiclass Fighter/Shadowdancer.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Shadowdancer
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowdancer_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Shadowdancer,_Tome_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Shadowdancer,_Tome_(3.5e_Prestige_Class)
The way I see it it could work as a bard kit as well as a thief kit. According to at least some sources they are supposed to gain sneak attacks by themselves.
You could go for a Bard kit with:
- Shadow Door 1x per day every 3 levels starting at level 3
- Sneak attack progression like a thief of the same level
- Summon Shadow 1x per day starting at level 5 and every 5 levels thereafter
- something along the lines of Slippery Mind/Evasion/Uncanny Dodge
- only basic bard song
- cannot use pickpocket
- slower spell progression and/or NO dual-classing since it's basically already a combination of two classes: Bard and Shadowdancer
Wait... can you even dual class bards? ;D
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met. Rogues, bards, and monks make excellent shadowdancers. Fighters, barbarians, rangers, and paladins also find that shadowdancer abilities allow them to strike at their opponents with surprise and skill. Wizard, sorcerer, cleric, and druid shadowdancers employ the defensive capabilities inherent in the prestige class to allow them to cast their spells from safety and move away quickly. Despite their link with shadows and trickery, shadowdancers are as often good as evil."
It's worth noting that in 3.5 high level assassins get HIPS: that sounds more like what the OP is looking for.