How's the shapeshifter?

skaterfezz

I've been wanting to do a new run through IWDEE and ive been thinking about playing the shapeshifter, but from what I remember the shapeshifter was really bad in the Baldur's Gate games and since IWD is much more combat oriented I feel like he would be severely lacking especially near the end and in HOW. So I guess my question would be how does he hold up?

JuliusBorisov

With the new druid spells, shapeshifters are wonderful. On 1-5 spell levels druids in IWDEE have spells that really influence the game and help a lot:

Sunscorch - Alicorn Lance - Spike Growth - Smashing Wave - Spike Stones

Enemies that are not killed by your 3-4 Spike Growths combined with 2 Spike Stones may be dispatched with your shapeshifter powers.

So, in IWDEE a shapeshifter is a good choice. She will rock big time!

If you're talking about HoF, it's another story, though, and for that mode dualclass and multiclass characters are better, such as Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Mage, Fighter/Mage/Cleric, Fighter/Mage/Thief.

skaterfezz

Thank you man your awesome.

elminster

I'm playing through with one now. There is a point where it does begin to lag (due to a lack of AC), but during difficult fights you can always pre-cast Iron Skins for that (because by that point you'll have access to it). Once you hit level 13 though (thanks to its Greater Werewolf form) it'll improve pretty substantially from an AC standpoint.

I also really haven't had any problems with it hitting since most enemies AC sucks anyways.

The only times I can think of where its been a problem is in those few cases where enemies are immune to your weapons. I've had it happen a few times but from what I can tell its pretty rare. In those cases you can stick to spellcasting.

As Bengoshi pointed out Heart of Fury is a different story.

Shikao

We have whole separate discussion about Druids in HoF, although I think Shapeshifter specifically is rarely mentioned there.

bengoshi said:

If you're talking about HoF, it's another story, though, and for that mode dualclass and multiclass characters are better, such as Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Mage, Fighter/Mage/Cleric, Fighter/Mage/Thief.

Do you think Fighter x -> Shapeshifter (EEKeeped of course) would work?

Fandraxx

Shapeshifters are very strong in this game. There very strong in alot of aspects, they can front line with werewolf form or long range with a sling. The new spells also make them a bit better at range.

skaterfezz

Do you think Fighter x -> Shapeshifter (EEKeeped of course) would work?

Ive tried it as a multiclass for a little bit and it felt really redundant, but ive only played the very beginning of the game so im not sure how the greater werewolf is. The totemic druid with fighter multi (and also dual I would imagine) works very well.

Fardragon

I'm planning on taking a shapeshifter 13 dueled to fighter through the game, for concept reasons, but that is waiting for my next playthrough.

Wanderon

Fardragon said:

I'm planning on taking a shapeshifter 13 dueled to fighter through the game, for concept reasons, but that is waiting for my next playthrough.

I just can't even imagine being able to hit that dual class button back to fighter after reaching Shapeshifter 13 and slogging through 14 levels of fighter to get them back - are the perks for this really better than just continuing to level as a shapeshifter (well except for being able to wear a helmet ;-) )

Fardragon

No, I don't make my parties for the perks (I currently have a party member with Grand Mastery in Spears).

Wanderon

Fardragon said:

No, I don't make my parties for the perks (I currently have a party member with Grand Mastery in Spears).

So the point of dual classing the level 13 Shapeshifter to fighter is???

Audaces

Just wanted to add something interesting: shapeshifting into a werewolf sets your strength at 19 and your dex at 16 - but you can cast strength/cat's grace and they will add to those scores. Suddenly running a 25 str / 18 dex werewolf seems a lot more fun, especially that you can get both spells in Kuldahar/Vale of Shadows.

Oh, and don't forget to put points into Single Weapon style, it works for paws.

Wowo

Audaces said:

Just wanted to add something interesting: shapeshifting into a werewolf sets your strength at 19 and your dex at 16 - but you can cast strength/cat's grace and they will add to those scores. Suddenly running a 25 str / 18 dex werewolf seems a lot more fun, especially that you can get both spells in Kuldahar/Vale of Shadows.

Oh, and don't forget to put points into Single Weapon style, it works for paws.

Does single weapon style work for other shapes?

Fardragon

Wowo said:

Audaces said:

Just wanted to add something interesting: shapeshifting into a werewolf sets your strength at 19 and your dex at 16 - but you can cast strength/cat's grace and they will add to those scores. Suddenly running a 25 str / 18 dex werewolf seems a lot more fun, especially that you can get both spells in Kuldahar/Vale of Shadows.

Oh, and don't forget to put points into Single Weapon style, it works for paws.

Does single weapon style work for other shapes?

Yes.

OlvynChuru

Well, once he gets his shapeshifter abilities back, he can become a greater werewolf with 4 attacks per round, great THAC0, and around -10 AC at the worst, along with Iron Skins and Entropy Shield. Sounds pretty nasty to me.

Or have they nerfed the greater werewolf since BG2? I haven't used it in IWD yet.

elminster

OlvynChuru said:

Or have they nerfed the greater werewolf since BG2? I haven't used it in IWD yet.

The exploit where you could equip a weapon in your offhand slot (in order to get 1 more APR in form) doesn't work anymore. Also the kit does now get 1d10 slashing weapons instead of 1d6 piercing weapons. Besides these two changes there isn't anything different about how it works compared to BG2EE.

Wowo

What do the various forms hit as in terms of bypassing weapon resistances?

Audaces

The basic form counts as +1 I guess (worked well against anything up to Dorn's Deep), I think the greater form would count as +3.

elminster

Wowo said:

What do the various forms hit as in terms of bypassing weapon resistances?

Werewolf: +2
Greater Werewolf: +3

Wowo

elminster said:

Wowo said:

What do the various forms hit as in terms of bypassing weapon resistances?

Werewolf: +2
Greater Werewolf: +3

So that works for basically anything in the game?

Reticent

So what's up with the absence of the Con modification for WW form (as compared to non-EE BG2's Shapeshifter)? Assuming that change holds for GWW, that's actually a pretty huge nerf to a kit that's already considered underpowered.

Audaces

The kit would be OK-ish, if at some point the wereforms allowed spellcasting. Say, lvl 12 for werewolf, lvl 14 for greater werewolf.

Fun thing with the shifter is that you can cast Static Charge, change into werewolf and go melee. Kinda like Thunderstorm sorceress in D2.

Fardragon

Reticent said:

So what's up with the absence of the Con modification for WW form (as compared to non-EE BG2's Shapeshifter)? Assuming that change holds for GWW, that's actually a pretty huge nerf to a kit that's already considered underpowered.

The last BGEE patch changed all shapeshifting to not modify Con. Since the shifter can't benefit for Con over 16 anyway, it's not a nerf unless you had a low Con to start off with.

Audaces

Thing is, with con 25 you got excellent regeneration that made greater werewolves excellent tanks.

Fardragon

I think they get regeneration anyway.

elminster

Audaces said:

Thing is, with con 25 you got excellent regeneration that made greater werewolves excellent tanks.

25 constitution gives 6 hp/turn (or minute) regeneration. Its fine if you want to sit around and wait for him to heal (keeping in mind with max hp he is going to have over 100 health), but by comparison the War Chant of the Sith bard song would be giving 20hp/turn regeneration (and the Regeneration spell gives much better than even that). Its really not fast enough to be anything more than a very minor benefit in combat.

Fardragon said:

I think they get regeneration anyway.

Not that I'm aware of. Besides the level 7 spell of course.

Reticent

Fardragon said:

Reticent said:

So what's up with the absence of the Con modification for WW form (as compared to non-EE BG2's Shapeshifter)? Assuming that change holds for GWW, that's actually a pretty huge nerf to a kit that's already considered underpowered.

The last BGEE patch changed all shapeshifting to not modify Con. Since the shifter can't benefit for Con over 16 anyway, it's not a nerf unless you had a low Con to start off with.

Why did they choose to do that? Sounds like a case of throwing out the baby with the bath water to me.

Losing the Con adjustment for WW is a very significant nerf for anyone who isn't inclined to artificially manipulate their stat rolls.

For GWW, losing the 25 Con regen is a pretty big nerf to convenience given the significant amounts of HP you would gain back during down time, never mind the fact that there are circumstances where it can save your character during combat.