Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
Soundtracks for BG:EE, SoD, BG2:EE, IWD:EE, PST:EE are now available in the Beamdog store.
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Revamp Test of Selfishness - BG2 Hell Trial (spoilers on)

kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
Hi ppl, i was looking in the game and thought... is the selfishness test really selfishness? Cos it's a bit contradictory to permanent kill an dorn or korgan in the trade of an +2AC (which is crap in ToB) or to save 1 point of dexterity. In the long run for any party, good or evil, it's better to take the good path, sometimes +10 Mres is even preferable than 1 dex.

The fun question is that the good path is an greed path in fact, where we can't fathom the possibility of lose an character that we had an high amount of work to get, it's an tool we sharpened to perfection that the game intent to take from us!

So, i proposte to rework this trial, so we can take the evil option more often. My initial suggestion is to change the evil bonus, cos it sucks, and give an penality to the sacrified character taken instead of perma kill him/her (it for mods).

Maybe +2 Dex to main char and -2dex (or -x max life points) to the sacrified character.

So, what you ppl say?

Revamp Test of Selfishness - BG2 Hell Trial (spoilers on) 41 votes

yes
29%
kamuizinParysWowobob_vengPantalionJarrakulOzzyBotkinsdementedArduldomeplsffswubbleOlvynChuru 12 votes
no
70%
MERLANCEGodKaiserHellsarevok57dibProontDJKajurukarnor00NonnahswriterJLeeThacoBellSertoriusDarKelPCrevsDaakmacomeauCaradocmeaglothjackjackArtemius_IabacusBlackhawk 29 votes
«134

Comments

  • abacusabacus Member Posts: 1,304
    no
    The trials are designed as role playing devices... Charname doesn't know the outcomes, and any character who would sacrifice an ally to protect themselves from unknown consequences *is* selfish.

    if you decide to metagame, then magic resistance beats dexterity every time... Especially at the levels you're talking about, where THAC0s are already at obscene levels that render AC obsolete...

    GodKaiserHellBlackhawkProont
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 15,521
    This is the original content that have been with us for 14 years and I guess it can't be changed.

  • dibdib Member Posts: 384
    edited November 2014
    no
    You should go with the option that resounds best with your character and not base it on meta game knowledge. Or maybe you don't care about role playing at all in which case your whole point is moot.

  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    yes
    I think you should at least be able to choose which attribute to drop. I was playing an elf fighter with sword and shield, dexterity was my main attribute and in the end I used EEkeeper to put my dex back to normal and gave up a charisma.

    Proont
  • Ancalagon44Ancalagon44 Member Posts: 252
    wubble said:

    I think you should at least be able to choose which attribute to drop. I was playing an elf fighter with sword and shield, dexterity was my main attribute and in the end I used EEkeeper to put my dex back to normal and gave up a charisma.

    They do that because all characters depend on dexterity and constitution (to some extent), but not all characters depend on wisdom, charisma and intelligence.

    wubbleThacoBellCaradocProont
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,047
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,027
    yes
    Well, it's the one test that I NEVER go evil on, simply because the cost of losing a valuable party member, especially right before the final Irenicus fight, is far greater than a few hp and a point of Dex. Acting as selfishly as possible, I simply cannot justify going evil on this test, unless the character in question is colossally stupid. I mean, "become marginally clumsier" or "lose one of your five strongest allies in the world"? The greater loss seems pretty clear, even if you don't actually care one whit about your allies.

    So yeah, if you want to mod it, I'll download your mod.

    kamuizin
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 565
    edited November 2014
    Two points:

    1) This whole question is based upon meta-gaming, as @abacus quite rightly points out, so from a role-playing perspective the only reasonable answer to your question is NO.

    2) Selfishness is ultimately a question of semantics, and every act can be seen to be selfish, if that's what you want. Like, you're giving all your money, millions of dollars, to the poor? That's selfishness! Why? Because you act upon what you feel to be correct, in other words, you want to do the "right" thing according to what you think is right, and feel good about it. In other words, you're being selfish, you're looking for your own good, the poor are just a tool you're using.

    NeonfiskProont
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,343
    If you are soloing, what then? IIRC I have read somewhere that the demon gated in a commoner or such innocent being in place of the usual npc. Not letting an innocent die, at the cost of some harm to self is the epitome of being 'selfless' IMHO.

    JuliusBorisovThacoBellProont
  • dementeddemented Member Posts: 388
    yes
    The Hell Trails are pretty dumb. For one no matter the alignment your char will be changed to neutral evil if you choose the "bad" option for...reasons (maybe this was fixed with EE, but I've yet to take an evil char through the game). And if you're evil or neutral and choose all the good options you're alignment stays the same for, again...reasons.

    There's already a Revised Hell Trails mod http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/15881/revised-trials-for-bg2-ee-bg2-spoilers which (IMO) improves greatly on the original idea.

  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    edited November 2014
    yes
    demented said:

    The Hell Trails are pretty dumb. For one no matter the alignment your char will be changed to neutral evil if you choose the "bad" option for...reasons (maybe this was fixed with EE, but I've yet to take an evil char through the game). And if you're evil or neutral and choose all the good options you're alignment stays the same for, again...reasons.

    There's already a Revised Hell Trails mod http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/15881/revised-trials-for-bg2-ee-bg2-spoilers which (IMO) improves greatly on the original idea.

    No, you're still evil if you only choose one bad option

    ThacoBell
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,704
    edited November 2014
    demented said:

    The Hell Trails are pretty dumb. For one no matter the alignment your char will be changed to evil if you choose the "bad" option

    EE changes you to an evil alignment (but doesn't touch the chaotic/lawful alignment). So lawful good -> lawful evil, true neutral -> neutral evil, etc.

    dementedProont
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,027
    yes
    I believe your law-chaos alignment is preserved now, but other than that and the implementation of a couple of the bonuses, the hell trials are basically unchanged. Which makes sense for an Enhanced Edition, but I'd still very much like a mod for the Selfishness trial.

    wubble
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,498
    no
    Speaking of bonuses, the immunity to normal weapons seemed like a cool idea...until I realized that there were no normal weapon wielders in TOB.

    wubbleJustLeftJuliusBorisovProont
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,498
    no
    dib said:

    Nimran said:

    Speaking of bonuses, the immunity to normal weapons seemed like a cool idea...until I realized that there were no normal weapon wielders in TOB.

    You get immunity up to +1 weapons, which can be really useful. You'll be completely immune to many of the guards in the Saradush castle for example.
    Yeh, I remember that now. I thought the guards used +2 weapons. Silly me.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    yes

    Two points:

    1) This whole question is based upon meta-gaming, as @abacus quite rightly points out, so from a role-playing perspective the only reasonable answer to your question is NO.

    2) Selfishness is ultimately a question of semantics, and every act can be seen to be selfish, if that's what you want. Like, you're giving all your money, millions of dollars, to the poor? That's selfishness! Why? Because you act upon what you feel to be correct, in other words, you want to do the "right" thing according to what you think is right, and feel good about it. In other words, you're being selfish, you're looking for your own good, the poor are just a tool you're using.


    Everything is based on metagaming, and even if i don't metagame at first, no matter which gameplay i had i would reload to change my choice. The point of the hell trials are to give an reward at an specific cost, every other trial is this way, selfish trial is not.

    I just feel it's a lame test, specially if compared to others.

  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    yes
    wubble said:

    demented said:

    The Hell Trails are pretty dumb. For one no matter the alignment your char will be changed to neutral evil if you choose the "bad" option for...reasons (maybe this was fixed with EE, but I've yet to take an evil char through the game). And if you're evil or neutral and choose all the good options you're alignment stays the same for, again...reasons.

    There's already a Revised Hell Trails mod http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/15881/revised-trials-for-bg2-ee-bg2-spoilers which (IMO) improves greatly on the original idea.

    No, you're still evil if you only choose one bad option
    Ok, paladin :)!

    wubblebob_veng
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,047
    yes
    elminster said:


    Yes it is selfish because your character is sacrificing someone else for their own benefit (and on top of that they have no way of knowing what the reward for sacrificing that person will be).

    too irrational, selfish people aren't so short-sighted. maybe what a low-int chaotic neutral character would do

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,704
    bob_veng said:

    elminster said:


    Yes it is selfish because your character is sacrificing someone else for their own benefit (and on top of that they have no way of knowing what the reward for sacrificing that person will be).

    too irrational, selfish people aren't so short-sighted. maybe what a low-int chaotic neutral character would do
    Selfish people are frequently short-sighted.

    abacusThacoBellProont
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    edited December 2014
    yes
    demented said:

    The Hell Trails are pretty dumb. For one no matter the alignment your char will be changed to neutral evil if you choose the "bad" option for...reasons (maybe this was fixed with EE, but I've yet to take an evil char through the game). And if you're evil or neutral and choose all the good options you're alignment stays the same for, again...reasons.

    There's already a Revised Hell Trails mod http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/15881/revised-trials-for-bg2-ee-bg2-spoilers which (IMO) improves greatly on the original idea.

    I took an look in this mod, it's not avaliable to BG2EE, is it? A shame.

    But anyway, there's a point in the Hell trials alignment change, planescape: torment explains this perfectly. In the planes, unlike the prime, the environment is somehow semiconscious or at very least fluid based on alingments.

    So in the planes, the acts you take, based on the place where you are, have the potential of change you to the core. So if i commit an act of greed or corruption in Baator, there's a high chance of the act synchronized with baator natural alignment (Lawful evil) drag the characters alignment to the plane he's in.
    Same would happen with an selfish act in grey waste or cruel and bloodlust behavior in the abyss, also the same truth is applied to good alignment places.


    So i understand perfectly why an evil act in hell trials could drag my alignment to evil, while good acts don't have any effect in this way. There's no sense in the abyss change someone to good, the person can change by itself by pure force of will or strongly follow a code of conduct (aka Fall-From-Grace, the succubus lawful neutral joinable NPC from Planescape torment), but the place's alignment will always tend to drag people to match it, not push from it.

    Of course that even in PnP this isn't just "one act imediate change" so i agree that 1 evil act shouldn't be able to instantly turn the character.

    So my complain with hell is based solely with the selfish trial, that sometimes put my game in checkmate, cos or i act as the roleplay intend, sacrifice my best character and thus fuck my ToB game, or i metagame to avoid it but act in disagreement with my alignment. It's a shit.

    I would suggest changes to this mod in hell trials (if he even become compatible with BG2 EE), something like each trial done in evil way to give 20% chance of change the alignment (always to evil) and 10% chance to change the axis (always to chaotic), after all the abyss is chaotic evil, not chaotic neutral.

    Post edited by kamuizin on
    Proont
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,027
    yes
    If we're talking alignment changes, this is what I'd do:

    First, each failed (evil) test counts as a reputation hit on par with injuring an innocent (usually -1, except for very high and very low reputations). No one consciously knows of your actions in hell, but the taint of evil stays with you and subtly turns them against you nonetheless (or towards you, in the case of evil characters).

    Second, failing any test would cause a paladin to fall. Maybe also rangers, although I'm tempted to hold them to a looser standard.

    Third, on the second failed test, good characters become neutral.

    Fourth, on the third failed test, neutral characters (and thus also formerly good characters) become evil.

    Fifth, if an evil character succeeds on all tests, they become neutral. Blackguards also fall.


    This would allow for a little more nuance and personal imperfection, and even an opportunity for redemption for evil characters who really give it their all. Pity I have the modding skills of a dead fish. :/

    ArdulProont
  • jackjackjackjack Member Posts: 3,247
    no
    Short of a complete, er, Overhaul of the Hell Trials, I'd just as soon they leave it as is.

    elminsterJuliusBorisovProont
  • DarkcloudDarkcloud Member Posts: 302
    The change to evil after one evil choice makes sense. An evil choice means you did not resist your bhaal blood and you give in to your evil heritage. It would on the other hand make perfect sense for an evil char to sacrifice your own skills instead of a party member if he sees it as more valuable for himself.

    ThacoBellProont
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    yes
    jackjack said:

    Short of a complete, er, Overhaul of the Hell Trials, I'd just as soon they leave it as is.

    As it is i always make the good path with in the selfish trial, be my character good or evil, or at the very least i low the game difficult to easy to ressurect the character.

    So i ask, is the intent of the old devs and the actual devs that i never take the selfish path? Because i'm not about killing a main tool of my party to roleplay selfishness.

    Change the permanent death to common death would be a valid change for example.


    Obs: if only the bonus of the evil solution of this trial were at least decent...

  • ScourgeScourge Member Posts: 82
    The const bonus is not bad at all.
    The thing I would do, sincerely, is sub the +2 ac with a 20 hp bonus.

    or 25. Up to you. After all, the greed means that you are too attached to your life to give part of it for others.

    But the same can be said for the other tests, to be fair. I would revamp the whole hell if I had the skills. I could think about a thing or two.

    Proont
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,678
    yes
    Scourge said:

    The const bonus is not bad at all.
    The thing I would do, sincerely, is sub the +2 ac with a 20 hp bonus.

    or 25. Up to you. After all, the greed means that you are too attached to your life to give part of it for others.

    But the same can be said for the other tests, to be fair. I would revamp the whole hell if I had the skills. I could think about a thing or two.

    Selfish gives +2AC when done evil, if i'm not wrong.

  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,027
    edited December 2014
    yes
    For reference, the total gains/losses for each trial, according to my notes:

    Fear:
    --Good: Immunity to +1 weapons or less
    --Evil: +2 Con and fear immunity cloak
    Selfishness:
    --Good: +10% MR and -1 Dex, -2 HP, and -XP (I haven't recorded the exact XP loss)
    --Evil: +2 AC and lose companion
    Greed:
    --Good: +2 to all saves
    --Evil: +15 hp and Blackrazor
    Pride:
    --Good: +20% fire, cold, and electricity resistance
    --Evil: 200,000 xp
    Wrath:
    --Good: +1 Wis and Cha
    --Evil: +2 Str

    Proont
«134
Sign In or Register to comment.