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Alignments for Rasaad, Neera, and Dorn?

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  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Xavioria said:

    @Dragonspear I wholeheartedly agree that Dorn's romance is going to be interesting to say the least. It's definitely the one I'm looking forward to the most.

    This~! Evil characters always produce the most interesting romances. Viconia, anyone?
  • AvengerLynxAvengerLynx Member Posts: 24
    See, I would have guessed Rasaad will probably be LN rather than LG, simply because Xan is the only other LN character in the game, and that alignment is quite lacking. All of the other alignments are fairly balanced (with 3 or 4 people per alignment), but there is a significant gap in the LN area. In my eyes, it would seem silly not to fill it.
    As for the others, I'm not really sure. My theories are very much based upon where the other NPCs are already. Now, as it currently stands, there are 9 good NPCs, 8 neutral NPCs and 8 evil NPCs, so I'd also guess that they want to stick to the similar ratios, as the game is more orientated around a good player. I've already stated that I think Rasaad will be LN, so I'd then go on to think there will be 1 good and 1 evil NPC, just to keep a wide range for the player. Neera is quite obviously chaotic, and not evil, so I'd say she'll be CG. Dorn is a bit more of a mystery. Whilst I can see logic in him being CE, I would have thought that as well as having a balance in good/evil, a balance in lawful/chaotic will also be included. Rasaad is lawful, Neera is chaotic, therefore I'd say Dorn will be neutral, making him NE.
    Just my thoughts, although I'm basing it a lot on logic and balance, which is something I don't think the devs care too much about. I could be completely wrong and there be 2 neutral and 2 chaotic characters, but I think this would be the 'fairest' way of dishing out their alignments.
  • AkerhonAkerhon Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 614
    For me:

    Neera: CG
    Rasaad: LN
    Dorn: NE
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    It doesn't even matter much what the companions' alignments are, you can play through a game without it exploding just because you had neutral and/or evil characters in your goodish party. Really, it's true! I've had Viconia, Branwen, Khalid/Jaheira and Imoen at the same time; the fact the team wasn't perfectly balanced in alignment representation meant nothing.

    Good point - intra-party conflict is usually the result of clashing personalities rather than clashing alignments. Ajantis is really the only NPC who'll attack party members because they're Evil rather than for personal reasons.
  • AvengerLynxAvengerLynx Member Posts: 24
    That's a fair point, Silverstar, although they can fulfill both objectives at the same time - balancing everything out a little more, *and* making him an interesting addition to things.
    I don't think I really explained myself very well. My point is, this game is meant to build on everything before and make it fairer and more balanced for the player, and to fill in some of the gaps. Therefore, I would think the starting point when creating these NPCs would be to look at the other NPCs in place already and identify the gaps left in the previous games. They seem to have done this - ALL of the new characters are of kits and classes which have never featured in the game before, so they're clearly looking for new ground which hasn't been explored before. They seem to have done this with their personalities too, and from what I've seen all of them look to be interesting and nothing which we've really gone over before.
    Now, I'm aware alignment is a bit of a shaky ground, in that characters' alignments can change, switch about and be open to opinion. So really, these characters are up for debate. Rasaad is clearly not evil, but out of LG and LN, surely they would tend towards the one which is more new in terms of character/personality to make him more fresh and interesting? Wouldn't you rather have more new ground to explore personality-wise than something which has been done time and time again? We've already had Ajantis, Dynaheir, Yeslick, Keldorn, Mazzy, Aeire (and Sir Anomen) as LG characters, all of which have given us their own spin on things. But I'm getting a bit bored of the goodie-goodie attitude now, so I'd rather have another view to a more lacking alignment than something which goes over ground which has already been covered, as to create a wider range for the player. We haven't really looked into LN very much - Anomen changed around after his quest, and didn't really show very much, and Xan was more depressing than anything else, so isn't really much of an example either. I think LN would provide more of a blank pallet for Rasaad's personality to be built on, rather than just going off on the 'look at me I'm good' tangent. Plus I think a character who's interest is to uphold order and lives an extremely regimented lifestyle, rather than being greedy or making every effort to battle evil could make him a very interesting character indeed, and different to anything we've had before - as I said, it can be both interesting *and* help to balance things out at the same time.

    I suppose you are correct though, Silverstar, and making a character interesting is more important than the game being 'fair'. I'm just thinking from a more logic-based point of view of a developer, who wants to make these new characters as interesting and unique as possible. I guess this is why the debate is so intense! :P
  • AlejandroAlejandro Member Posts: 201
    The way Trent Oster refers to Dorn´s attitude, it seems more like "Chaotic Evil" than any other alignment.

    "Last night's VO session for Dorn had the words Die, Blood or Blade in almost every line. One page had Die in every line #HesEvil"

    "In the case of Dorn, we wanted a character that would be unapologetically evil, without any remorse for his actions. His tale is quite different from most NPC villains; most of the evil characters have some redeeming feature, or they were forced into their path. Dorn is simply a bad man who knows full well the depths of his evil and does not regret it."

    Well, at least that´s the feel i get from those quotes. But I´m not sure exactly about alignments and its limits.
  • DrugarDrugar Member Posts: 1,566
    I don't feel like it speaks for Law over Chaos or the other way around in any way. You can be power obsessed, vengeful, remorseless and murderous without rampaging through the sword coast, leaving a trail of broken bones and homes in your wake.
    If Dorn's grab for power is done meticulously, well planned and well disciplined, he could easily be Lawful Evil while still wrangling every gold piece out of every commoner along the way. Likewise, if he simply crushes all opposition and impales bodies on his sword to sate his bloodlust then it's more likely he's chaotic.

    So far, the jury's still out. We'll see in three-ish weeks.
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Now, I'm aware alignment is a bit of a shaky ground, in that characters' alignments can change, switch about and be open to opinion. So really, these characters are up for debate. Rasaad is clearly not evil, but out of LG and LN, surely they would tend towards the one which is more new in terms of character/personality to make him more fresh and interesting? Wouldn't you rather have more new ground to explore personality-wise than something which has been done time and time again?

    The problem I'm having here is with the assumption that alignment is short-hand for personality; if anything, it's the other way around. Rasaad being LN wouldn't make him any more or less interesting than him being LG just on the basis that LNs are rare - rather, if he's a compelling character it'll be because he's well-written, and his alignment would be a by-product of that.
  • AvengerLynxAvengerLynx Member Posts: 24
    edited August 2012
    shawne said:

    It doesn't even matter much what the companions' alignments are, you can play through a game without it exploding just because you had neutral and/or evil characters in your goodish party. Really, it's true! I've had Viconia, Branwen, Khalid/Jaheira and Imoen at the same time; the fact the team wasn't perfectly balanced in alignment representation meant nothing.

    Good point - intra-party conflict is usually the result of clashing personalities rather than clashing alignments. Ajantis is really the only NPC who'll attack party members because they're Evil rather than for personal reasons.
    shawne said:

    Now, I'm aware alignment is a bit of a shaky ground, in that characters' alignments can change, switch about and be open to opinion. So really, these characters are up for debate. Rasaad is clearly not evil, but out of LG and LN, surely they would tend towards the one which is more new in terms of character/personality to make him more fresh and interesting? Wouldn't you rather have more new ground to explore personality-wise than something which has been done time and time again?

    The problem I'm having here is with the assumption that alignment is short-hand for personality; if anything, it's the other way around. Rasaad being LN wouldn't make him any more or less interesting than him being LG just on the basis that LNs are rare - rather, if he's a compelling character it'll be because he's well-written, and his alignment would be a by-product of that.

    That's true, although it has to be said that certain personalities do tag themselves to certain alignments, and alignment & personality are very much part of one-another in characters. For example, Aerie is picked on by the evil characters because of her innocence and vulnerability, yet these are characteristics which you wouldn't find in an evil character. So surely you could say she's picked on because of the good-related traits she possesses. It is true that not many character will take the attitude of 'you're evil, therefore I don't like you', however the conflicts are usually more towards 'I don't like you because you have XYZ personality trait, which also makes you an good/evil character'. In essence, I think you're correct though, although it has to be said certain personalities (ie a collection of character traits) can be exclusive to certain alignments and vice versa. This is a very tough subject!
    I've always been of the opinion that personality and alignment sort of go hand-in-hand. Because a character has certain traits, it makes them a certain alignment, which I think is what you're trying to say. Now, I can agree with this, although I think it can be flipped the other way, in that there are traits a LN character could have, but a LG character couldn't have, and we can also make assumptions of what a character is like if we know what alignment they are. Now, I'm of the view that if characters' alignments are the same, then their views and morals are also likely to be similar, and they would generally get on (I know that's not always the case, and that there have been cases where they don't get on, etc.). So, what I mean is that surely if Rasaad were LN, it would mean his traits are likely to be very different to anything we've seen before. I'm finding it quite hard to explain what I mean here, but what I mean is that if we've seen more characters of LG and seen a lot of what traits point towards a LG character. Thereby, if Rasaad were to be LG, then he's more likely to also possess some of these traits too (I know that's not necessarily true, and there are more aspects of a LG character which could be explored). Now, if he were to be LN, then I think he'd be more likely to have some new and that we've not seen before, if we haven't seen much of the LN attitude before now, and characters which are classes as being LN. See, I would think that they'd have a bit more to play around with if that were the case, and they'd not have to tip-toe around what traits other characters have. I know that you can't say certain traits are exclusive to a certain alignment, but by looking to something we've seen less of, surely it enables a more interesting mix of things?
    You are right though, he could still be interesting if he's written well. Anyway, I don't think I can go any further with this unless I want my head to explode. These things are far too confusing for me! That's just my view on what alignment I think he should be. Take it or leave it I guess :P
    Drugar said:

    I don't feel like it speaks for Law over Chaos or the other way around in any way. You can be power obsessed, vengeful, remorseless and murderous without rampaging through the sword coast, leaving a trail of broken bones and homes in your wake.
    If Dorn's grab for power is done meticulously, well planned and well disciplined, he could easily be Lawful Evil while still wrangling every gold piece out of every commoner along the way. Likewise, if he simply crushes all opposition and impales bodies on his sword to sate his bloodlust then it's more likely he's chaotic.

    So far, the jury's still out. We'll see in three-ish weeks.

    I very much agree with this. I think that we simply don't know enough about each of these characters to pin-point an alignment yet, so guessing is really our best bet! This is what I mean by alignments not always being 100% true in characters, and that they can be up for debate though. I think it could even be suggested that all of the characters could possibly fit into another alignment, even though the game says they're something else. Like the fact that I've always thought Jaheira is actually a good person, despite being 'neutral', showing that although the game says she's one alignment, it's always possible for her to be something else. This is only made more obvious by the fact that there's all that alignment switching in BGII and ToB only makes everything more confusing.
    Alignments and personalities are very tricky things to nail when we've only had a few clues. I can only wonder who turns out to be right in the end!

  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356

    See, I would have guessed Rasaad will probably be LN rather than LG, simply because Xan is the only other LN character in the game, and that alignment is quite lacking. All of the other alignments are fairly balanced (with 3 or 4 people per alignment), but there is a significant gap in the LN area. In my eyes, it would seem silly not to fill it.
    As for the others, I'm not really sure. My theories are very much based upon where the other NPCs are already. Now, as it currently stands, there are 9 good NPCs, 8 neutral NPCs and 8 evil NPCs, so I'd also guess that they want to stick to the similar ratios, as the game is more orientated around a good player. I've already stated that I think Rasaad will be LN, so I'd then go on to think there will be 1 good and 1 evil NPC, just to keep a wide range for the player. Neera is quite obviously chaotic, and not evil, so I'd say she'll be CG. Dorn is a bit more of a mystery. Whilst I can see logic in him being CE, I would have thought that as well as having a balance in good/evil, a balance in lawful/chaotic will also be included. Rasaad is lawful, Neera is chaotic, therefore I'd say Dorn will be neutral, making him NE.
    Just my thoughts, although I'm basing it a lot on logic and balance, which is something I don't think the devs care too much about. I could be completely wrong and there be 2 neutral and 2 chaotic characters, but I think this would be the 'fairest' way of dishing out their alignments.

    This is the same type of reasoning I used, although I think Rasaad is going to be LG and Neera CN. Rasaad's quote about compassion seems to be a dead giveaway for a good alignment. Neera's quote, "Casting wild magic is like playing a flute by ear. In magical terms, I can play a pretty mean tune, but when I miss a note the flute shoots fire at everyone," seems to suggest a CN alignment: chaos for everyone, both good and evil. And, in terms of balancing the alignments among the new characters, this arrangement covers all of them as well: LG, CN, NE.
  • neleotheszeneleothesze Member Posts: 231


    I'm definitely interested to see how it'll play out. Especially since it'll be either an Elf or a Halfling romancing a Half-Orc.

    @Dragonspear My lady Bhaalspawn will be a gnome. Either hilarity or boundless satisfaction (or both) :P

    On topic, I'm leaning towards
    Rasaad - Lawful Good
    Neera - Chaotic Neutral
    Dorn - Neutral Evil
    (this way we get everything from lawful to chaotic and good to evil)
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    That's true, although it has to be said that certain personalities do tag themselves to certain alignments, and alignment & personality are very much part of one-another in characters. For example, Aerie is picked on by the evil characters because of her innocence and vulnerability, yet these are characteristics which you wouldn't find in an evil character. So surely you could say she's picked on because of the good-related traits she possesses.

    Actually, that's a rather excellent example of disparity. Take Korgan (CE) as an example and put him up against three Lawful Good characters: he picks on Aerie, gets along fine with Keldorn and tries to woo Mazzy. He isn't bullying Aerie because she's LG, it's because he perceives her as weak and thinks he can get away with it. Meanwhile, he respects Imoen (NG) because she insults him right back.

    You can also have friendships forming within the group despite alignments: in BG1, Shar-Teel (CE) respects Branwen (TN) as a strong female warrior, Edwin (LE) takes a shining to Alora (CG) and so on. It's the same in BG2: characters form bonds or hate each other based on how they act, rather than how they're labeled. :)
  • AvengerLynxAvengerLynx Member Posts: 24
    Mortianna said:

    See, I would have guessed Rasaad will probably be LN rather than LG, simply because Xan is the only other LN character in the game, and that alignment is quite lacking. All of the other alignments are fairly balanced (with 3 or 4 people per alignment), but there is a significant gap in the LN area. In my eyes, it would seem silly not to fill it.
    As for the others, I'm not really sure. My theories are very much based upon where the other NPCs are already. Now, as it currently stands, there are 9 good NPCs, 8 neutral NPCs and 8 evil NPCs, so I'd also guess that they want to stick to the similar ratios, as the game is more orientated around a good player. I've already stated that I think Rasaad will be LN, so I'd then go on to think there will be 1 good and 1 evil NPC, just to keep a wide range for the player. Neera is quite obviously chaotic, and not evil, so I'd say she'll be CG. Dorn is a bit more of a mystery. Whilst I can see logic in him being CE, I would have thought that as well as having a balance in good/evil, a balance in lawful/chaotic will also be included. Rasaad is lawful, Neera is chaotic, therefore I'd say Dorn will be neutral, making him NE.
    Just my thoughts, although I'm basing it a lot on logic and balance, which is something I don't think the devs care too much about. I could be completely wrong and there be 2 neutral and 2 chaotic characters, but I think this would be the 'fairest' way of dishing out their alignments.

    This is the same type of reasoning I used, although I think Rasaad is going to be LG and Neera CN. Rasaad's quote about compassion seems to be a dead giveaway for a good alignment. Neera's quote, "Casting wild magic is like playing a flute by ear. In magical terms, I can play a pretty mean tune, but when I miss a note the flute shoots fire at everyone," seems to suggest a CN alignment: chaos for everyone, both good and evil. And, in terms of balancing the alignments among the new characters, this arrangement covers all of them as well: LG, CN, NE.
    That's actually a very good point about Rasaad's mention of compassion, and thinking about it your theory for Neera also make sense to me. I'd thought that Neera seemed rather innocent, in a similar way to Aerie which would make her good, although looking at it from this angle, there's isn't really much to suggest she's good at all, just not evil. So her being the neutral one is very plausible looking at it like that. It's like A lot of the neutral characters really - they're by no means evil, but they don't exactly have features which would make them 'good' either. Interesting stuff though :)
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356

    That's actually a very good point about Rasaad's mention of compassion, and thinking about it your theory for Neera also make sense to me. I'd thought that Neera seemed rather innocent, in a similar way to Aerie which would make her good, although looking at it from this angle, there's isn't really much to suggest she's good at all, just not evil. So her being the neutral one is very plausible looking at it like that. It's like A lot of the neutral characters really - they're by no means evil, but they don't exactly have features which would make them 'good' either. Interesting stuff though :)

    It'll be interesting to see how it turns out. I've always found the alignment system to be a fascinating philosophical "problem" and an essential part of the role playing experience.
  • AvengerLynxAvengerLynx Member Posts: 24
    Very true - there's also the fact that alignments aren't 'facts', and are always up for debate. So much so, as I said earlier, the characters will change they alignments during the game - the PC, Viconia, Anomen, Sarevok etc.
    Just goes to show how much of a complex thing this is we're dealing with!
  • DaveDave Member Posts: 200
    @Drugar What would Viconia have to say about Rasaad?

    Funny you should ask.
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @Dave You tease. God I can't wait to lose years in baldur's gate again
  • DragonspearDragonspear Member Posts: 1,838
    @mortianna due to having played the same basic party for so long I never knew of some of these additional back and forth banters. I had heard of the ones between Tiax and Quayle; Yeslick and Kagain; And Xan, Kivan, Coran and I THINK Viconia before (Coran is the one I'm not certain of the most) but I didn't know about Shar-Teel and Brawen or Edwin and Alora (and really I mean I have imoen why would I use Alora).
  • AlejandroAlejandro Member Posts: 201
    @Dave

    So, will the new companions actually interact with the older ones? I thought that was not possible. Maybe I did not understand that correctly.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Alejandro said:

    @Dave

    So, will the new companions actually interact with the older ones? I thought that was not possible. Maybe I did not understand that correctly.

    They can't change existing dialogue, but they're allowed to write new dialogue for the old NPCs to react to new situations and characters.

    For example, Dorn and Minsc could have a chat about how friggin' awesome swords are, but Minsc and Dynaheir can't have new banters with one another.
  • AlejandroAlejandro Member Posts: 201
    Oh that´s great! I thought old npcs and new npcs would not react to each other!
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Dave said:

    Dorn's "romance" is unusual, more informed by Hong Kong bullet ballet than by Regency period drama.

    Someone mind explaining to me what exactly this means? So many cryptic words...
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    edited August 2012
    @Quartz For the "Hong Kong bullet ballet," try this one out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_fu

    For the Regency period drama, think cultural refinement and early 19th century British aristocracy.

    *edited for my mistake in name-dropping
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Quartz
    Basically, if you're hooking up with Dorn, it's because you just saw him chop something in half and you got a little hot and bothered by that. That's the impression I get.
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