You'd end up creating a fun but broken kind of supergroup. Personally, I don't get the need to mod & kit out NPCs so that they're just as good (or better) than a PC in that same role.
Guys like Kivan are already powerful & effective. Giving him Archer damage and hit bonuses would only help trivialize the core content.
To get the most out of Xan, play him as though he were an enchanter. You can't miss when the target is disabled.
Sleep (or Blindness against targets Sleep won't effect) and Hold Person are his two go-to spells. Buff him with Strength for that 18/50 roll and he hits for 7-14 damage.
That's what I'm doing with him right now @SandmanCCL The problem is I'm at the point where most enemies are finally immune to sleep's effect and they're starting to save v blind about half the time (mostly level 4 party). I've started to give him some burning hands spells to also use as damage. My level 2 spells for him right now are Mirror Image, Horror and Strength. I suppose I could drop a few burning hands spells for more sleep and blind though (I gave him my main characters Ring of Wizardy so that Xan is more useful atm).
I should prolly also give Jaheria a couple entangle spells at this point, the problem is that she's my only divine caster and also I have 4 melee characters (Khalid as the tank, Jaheria with a Quarterstaff +1, Main character with Varsconia and then Xan with his Moonblade.
@Brude I think if Kivan were made today he'd be an Archer, the kits will be there in BG:EE so in a way it's true to the idea of the character.
Sure. I'm just pointing out that if you increase the outgoing damage by adding kits to NPCs, then almost every encounter in the game would need to be rebalanced to account for that.
As it stands, Kivan will already do ~40% of a party's entire damage in groups where the PC isn't a fighter or fighter derivative (paladin, ranger, etc). Same goes for NPCs like Coran.
But in BG:EE you can role up a Archer is that unbalancing as well? Because it wasn't in the original, I wouldn't suggest kitting everyone just those where the match is so right it's wrong not to...
But in BG:EE you can role up a Archer is that unbalancing as well? Because it wasn't in the original, I wouldn't suggest kitting everyone just those where the match is so right it's wrong not to...
That remains to be seen. I'm hoping they're keeping an eye on encounter balance with some kits in mind, because certain kits confer bonuses that seem vastly overpowered at low levels.
The problem with kitting some NPCs and not others is that it makes having those NPCs in your party almost a requirement. In other words, giving flat, passive damage and hit bonuses to Kivan and Coran make Khalid and Shar-teel much less attractive.
One of the clever things about the original game was that you could complete it with almost any party composition.
@Dragonspear, fuel Jaheira with doom spels and make a stop in Ulgoth Beard's and buy a great malison scroll in the inn, that should solve your immediate problem.
Which kits do you feel are unbalanced at low levels?
Almost all of them, but especially kits that confer scaling +damage and +hit bonuses based on level, eg Archers and Swashbucklers. Both of those kits finish the game with bonuses that a far better than any single piece of equipment in BG1. Using them is like getting free purples at no cost.
Any low level party's biggest weakness is their high thac0s -- they can't hit anything. A Skald's song makes even Garrick and Jaheira into crack shots. Similarly, most low level enemy mobs have crap savings throws, so they're especially vulnerable to a Jester's song.
Other kits don't get those kind of bonuses but have their drawbacks minimized, or their kits enhanced, by easily obtainable gear at the start of the game. The Stalker doesn't get combat bonuses, but his natural +20% stealth is further enhanced by another +20% with those boots you can get outside of Beregost. A Sorcerer doesn't have access to her maximum number of level one spells until she reachers much higher levels, but can get that by grabbing the Ring of Wizardry that everyone knows about outside the Friendly Arm Inn.
Still others work too well against BG1 mechanics. A barbarian has a passive movement speed bonus. He can charge ranged enemies and force them to draw melee weapons, thus minimizing or flat out negating most of their damage potential.
I'll go in order to dispel your notions one at a time.
Disclaimer: All information will come from playithardcore.com, any complaints about information you should send to @SandmanCCL
Archer (Total BG1 benefits): Total of +3 to hit, +3 to damage and the ability to make the target suffer a -1 save vs. magic penalty,
I'll give you this is a pretty powerful kit, possibly one of the most powerful for end game ToTSC. Really won't change much since ranged attacks are already very powerful in the game.
Swashbuckler: -3 AC, +3 hit and damage
Again good, but definitely worse off than archers. If I'm correct, they still get the same thief weapon proficiency as regular thieves. This means they'll have a total of 4 proficiency points in the entire game. Considering the kit is setup around dual wielding, the best they can do is specialize in one weapon and put 2 points into dual wielding.
Skald: Song grants +2 to hit and damage, -2 AC for the entire game. Definitely the best bard option for BG1 (Personally I'd still play a blade anyway), effect will be less noticeable as the game progresses as your gear starts to improve. Honestly is more powerful than the above 2 kits, will prolly end up being a choice for potential power gamers.
Stalker: Yes he'll have all that stealth, but he doesn't even get x2 backstab until level 9 (Playithardcore is wrong here btw as @Tanthalas has tested).
Sorcerer: I don't know if the Ring of Wizardry will work with Sorcerer spells, would be interesting to check but I hope not. I'd actually report that as a bug if it did.
Barbarian: Honestly that's one of the benefits of the class, and when they do rush in they're limited to scale mail anyway.
Almost all of them, but especially kits that confer scaling +damage and +hit bonuses based on level, eg Archers and Swashbucklers. Both of those kits finish the game with bonuses that a far better than any single piece of equipment in BG1. Using them is like getting free purples at no cost.
Any low level party's biggest weakness is their high thac0s -- they can't hit anything. A Skald's song makes even Garrick and Jaheira into crack shots. Similarly, most low level enemy mobs have crap savings throws, so they're especially vulnerable to a Jester's song.
Other kits don't get those kind of bonuses but have their drawbacks minimized, or their kits enhanced, by easily obtainable gear at the start of the game. The Stalker doesn't get combat bonuses, but his natural +20% stealth is further enhanced by another +20% with those boots you can get outside of Beregost. A Sorcerer doesn't have access to her maximum number of level one spells until she reachers much higher levels, but can get that by grabbing the Ring of Wizardry that everyone knows about outside the Friendly Arm Inn.
Still others work too well against BG1 mechanics. A barbarian has a passive movement speed bonus. He can charge ranged enemies and force them to draw melee weapons, thus minimizing or flat out negating most of their damage potential.
Swashbucklers aren't that "op" until higher levels IMO. 1 better AC than a regular thief at level 1, 2 AC and 1 hit/damage at 5, 3 AC and 2 hit/damage at 10. Potentially another 1 hit, 2 damage, 1/2 attacks per round due to specialization.
All at the cost of not being able to backstab, which is pretty significant IMO. I actually think for BG1, a fighter/thief would be way better than a swashbuckler. Won't have as good damage but will have better thaco and can tank in a pinch with better armors.
Also not really buying Stalker as being "unbalanced" at low levels. He'll be able to stealth well from the get-go with those boots, but a regular ol' ranger can tank.
The only classes I see being totally unbalanced at low levels are the druid kits. Totemic Druid summons can beat BG1 for you without any problems at all save a handful of encounters. And Skald. Skald song is pretty crazy. Everything else I think has a fair trade-off.
Oh actually, lemme throw Paladin kits in there too. Not because they are significant bonuses in every sense per-se, but the biggest draw back to Inquistor literally never comes into play in BG1 because he'll never hit levels that let him cast spells anyway. I'm okay with Cavaliers actually even though they have the most significant bonuses, because losing out on ranged weapons is a HUGE drawback for BG1.
Testing stalker right now. At level 9, I'm doing triple rather than double backstabs in BG2. The backstab tables listed for them on PIH was taken out of the in-game description. If they don't triple backstab at level 9 in Tutu or BGT, it's an error in those mods.
Ya I only remember because I looked there once before, brought it to a thread and he went and tested it and said in Tutu it was wrong. They did start with x1 backstab and didn't get x2 until level 9. Which honestly I think is kinda silly. I'd like the kit a lot more if it started at x2 and went up to x4. Considering thieves can get x5 and assassins can get x7........
@Dragonspear: They do start at x2 and do get up to x4. That's what I'm saying.
The description for the kit is wrong, and it's possible someone with one of the mods decided to make the game match the description rather than the description match the game.
I don't have BGtutu or EasyTutu installed right now or I'd go test it out in those games, too. I am pretty sure it was still working as intended but I'm lowish on installation space right now and don't feel like uninstalling Guild Wars 2 or Borderlands 2 for it.
I'd install Tutu myself right now @sandmanCCL but my fighter/mage is already in Cloakwood. Of course not particularly enjoying my fighter/mage atm but I think that's because I rushed to Coran too fast =(
I'll go in order to dispel your notions one at a time.
Disclaimer: All information will come from playithardcore.com, any complaints about information you should send to @SandmanCCL
Archer (Total BG1 benefits): Total of +3 to hit, +3 to damage and the ability to make the target suffer a -1 save vs. magic penalty,
I'll give you this is a pretty powerful kit, possibly one of the most powerful for end game ToTSC. Really won't change much since ranged attacks are already very powerful in the game.
Swashbuckler: -3 AC, +3 hit and damage
Again good, but definitely worse off than archers. If I'm correct, they still get the same thief weapon proficiency as regular thieves. This means they'll have a total of 4 proficiency points in the entire game. Considering the kit is setup around dual wielding, the best they can do is specialize in one weapon and put 2 points into dual wielding.
Skald: Song grants +2 to hit and damage, -2 AC for the entire game. Definitely the best bard option for BG1 (Personally I'd still play a blade anyway), effect will be less noticeable as the game progresses as your gear starts to improve. Honestly is more powerful than the above 2 kits, will prolly end up being a choice for potential power gamers.
Stalker: Yes he'll have all that stealth, but he doesn't even get x2 backstab until level 9 (Playithardcore is wrong here btw as @Tanthalas has tested).
Sorcerer: I don't know if the Ring of Wizardry will work with Sorcerer spells, would be interesting to check but I hope not. I'd actually report that as a bug if it did.
Barbarian: Honestly that's one of the benefits of the class, and when they do rush in they're limited to scale mail anyway.
Think about it two ways (1) these bonuses as items (2) and these bonuses are cost free. How valuable, in BG1, would a +1 hit, +1 damage bow be if you could find one in a barrel outside the Candlekeep Inn? What about endgame? A +3 bow would be one of the best items on the game, hands down. As would be a passive item that improved an entire group's AC when running either the Nashkel Mines or Cloakwood (ie, the Skald's song). That's what you're getting with the kits.
When everybody has crap thac0's (ie, greater than 10) small boosts can make a *massive* difference on 1d20 rolls.
Problem with the barbarian movement speed, like a lot of these other benefits, is that the original game wasn't designed with them in mind. So with a barbarian, the enemy AI isn't smart enough to run out of melee range and keep fighting with their bow (as they do with SCS installed). This makes otherwise potentially high damage encounters trivial; it's like getting a free Boots of Speed on your PC from level one. Couple that with a half-orc's or dwarf's racial benefits and it gets a bit ridiculous.
Likewise the Stalker. I've got two rangers right now. One in vanilla, one in Tutu. Both are level four. Similar thac0s and damage. The vanilla ranger has a stealth percent in the high sixties. The tutu stalker has a stealth percent over a hundred. So that's a clear advantage on paper, but it also means I could pass my only pair of stealth boots very early in the game to another character that could use them. Again, this is like getting a free pair of boots. This is more meaningful in BG1 because there are limited ways to improve your character outside of gear.
Also, regardless of backstab multiplier, the significant part is: that the Stalker can do it at all, and he still gets a +hit bonus by attacking from stealth. Again, at crap thac0 levels in the early game, this can make a significant difference. (At level four, my thac0 could drop from 10-11 to 6-7, for instance.)
@sandmanCCL I'd argue that, for the bulk of encounters, a ranged Swashbuckler is better than a straight thief, because giving up backstab in the wild isn't really all that much of a sacrifice at all. Unless you're really into that play style or role playing it, it's easier and more efficient for thieves to straight up attack in most situations. Granted, it's all good for boss rights but wandering around the wilderness, players are probably less inclined to backstab hobgoblins, vampiric wolves, and those Iron Throne guys.
Also, the Cavalier's bonuses are way over the top in a BG1 context. Immunity to poison, fear, charm, or whatever makes certain encounters trvial (eg sirines, spiders, etc), especially if this paladin is acting as your lead/tank type. Add Spider's Bane to that mix and you've made yourself a PC superman.
PS: I loaded up my tutu Stalker and the character sheet doesn't display a backstab damage bonus at all -- but the status area still reports "double damage."
This is with a level 4 Elven Stalker (2 pips in longswords, +1 thac0 longsword equipped, base thac0 17, thac0 13):
If you look closely at that image, you can see chunks of that hobgoblin are now covering all of his friends.
Honestly you don't even need Spider's Bane. There is a pickpocketable NPC in Ulgoth's Beard that conviently has a ring of free action. Just saying.
Also I KNOW how powerful Cavaliers are in BGTutu. I ran with one through Chapter 5 before I finally said Meh, too easy (might have even been with the canon party I don't remember). That said, they CANNOT use ranged weapons, which honestly is a huge penalty in BG1. Sure you're going to be running at the archers etc from range, but having a ranged weapon (even as I continue to regularly run parties where most of them melee) on every character is a god send. It also multiplies when you start using stacking spells like Entangle, Web, Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud, Fireball/Skull Trap etc. By loading up with a significant amount of ranged weaponry, you open up even MORE spell options that normally might need seem attractive.
As far as Archers early and bows. Most enemies low level enemies you encounter (which is honestly where the archer would SEEM to be strongest, since end game ToTSC archers are already pushing 4-6 Thac0) already die in 1-3 arrows I doubt you'll notice much difference.
Re: Your stalker
Honestly I never scout in stealth much. Always takes me forever to get into it and then breaks at bad times. Or worse, It holds up fine when I find the enemy, but then breaks while I wait for my party to catch up. Furthermore, if your ranger is level 4, you probably have at least 1 level 4 mage who can easily learn invisibility, cast it on your thief who's detecting traps and let them go detrap the entire map anyway, which is better than your stalker can do already.
Do they give advantages, yes, after all that's why we're having this discussion. But I don't think the advantages are as game breaking as they may seem on paper. Well, other than totemic druids and fixed Shapeshifter kits.
Also I think Kivan in my party just hit level 5 and currently has a ranged Thac0 of 7 (Long Bow of Marksmenship and Bracers of Archery). Coran has a ranged Thac0 of 8 (Composite Longbow +1). Which means a level 8 archer will have a Thac0 of probably 1 or 2. If we end up getting the SoA versions of arrows and not the BG1 versions of arrows (the powerful elemental arrows of BG1 come to mind) you'll be able to do the following.
Base arrow: 1-6
Composite Longbow +1 +3 Damage
Archer (level 8) +3 damage
(Don't remember if magical arrows also increase damage or To Hit)
But this means that you're arrows will be doing 7-13 damage with a Thac0 of 1-2. You know what, I'm fine with that, ESPECIALLY on a PC, who is restricted to studded leather. I'm going to hit you many times, poking away and you're going to like that.
By the way to give you a comparison. Your archer is doing less damage than XAN can do with his Moonblade with a strength spell on him. (7-15)
Ok granted, you'll have much better thac0 than Xan and an extra attack but I still hold that the archer kit won't be "OP". Powerful, definitely, but I don't believe it'll be game breaking. His initial AC will still be at best 4, (goes down to 6 with 18/19/20 dex, another -2 for Studded leather), and the best AC he will ever manage in game SHOULD be 2. If I recall correctly there is no studded leather +3 armor that a ranger can use (Shadow Master Armor is restricted to thieves), and no leather armor +4.
To give you a comparison, if Imoen casts Armor on herself (assuming you dual her to mage), she can get down to 1 AC just with the armor spell. Xan and Xzar will have an AC of 3 with armor up, and even Edwin will have an AC of 4. If you give any of the specialist mages Gauntlets of Dex and their respective Robe of the Archi Magi, they'll go down to AC0. It can be -1 with Shield up (Xan can't do this) and -3 v Missiles.
The point being, while they'll have more health than those characters above or a PC mage, they'll be more likely to be hit, so they have to be able to mow people down. A 13 health rangern (Elf with 17 Con) can be 1 shot by an ogre by a regular hit.
Didn't mean to imply swashbuckler wasn't GOOD. Just don't think it's totally imbalanced, because it doesn't necessarily do anything that a fighter/thief currently can't do. They just level a little quicker and get more thief points. Swashbucklers don't totally throw the game's balance off and I think are fine as is.
Compared to a fighter/thief, swashbuckler will have -1Thac0 (maybe more? not sure how thac0 works with multi-classed units) and +3Damage. Fighter/thief also gets +1/2 attacks per round. Swashbuckler also can't use Mithril Chain +4 (or the announced Elven Chain armor in BG:EE), which I believes evens out the AC. Best armor for a plain thief is Shadow Armor at 4 AC, Mithril Chain is 1 AC, so that +3 AC bonus a swashbuckler gets would even that out. The big, big difference here is backstabs. Losing out on that is a huge disadvantage compared to a fighter/thief.
And I don't know about you, but my thief guys are always in a position to stealth if I can help it. I utilize backstab at every opportunity. It's pretty easy to make them hang back out of sight or to break LOS with what you're going to attack if you run behind a tree or something even while the rest of your team is engaging.
I'd take a swashbuckler over a regular plain thief, sure. Just pointing out it's not gamebreaking and IMO doesn't need any tweaking to make it "balanced" because there's a legit class equivalent already in the game that no one is going to complain about.
I also think Cavaliers are fine. They'll mop up Sirenes and will make great tanks against spiders. But he straight up gets NO RANGED WEAPONS EVER. I think Throwing Axes are literally the only thing they can use from range and those things are so mega heavy it's impractical to lug around more than a stack.
So, again, really really good kit. But it isn't totally game-shattering. The way I handle Sirenes right now is run in, wait for someone to get charmed, then charm them right back on my team using Algernon's Cloak, something available before you should ever encounter any of them. Plus, potions of clarity are fairly cheap and you get one for free in Candlekeep. Essentially the same thing as Cavalier bonuses and lasts long enough, you could clear the zone with the CON Tome in it with just that one.
Until you get Spider's Bane (and that's only if you decide to go two-handed swords, which I personally never do on Cavaliers, because throwing axes), Entangle/Web shenanigans tend to gum up Cavaliers more than most. Anyone else can equip a sling or chuck darts, but he gets to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs til the spell is over. If there was a returning axe or dagger weapon in BG1, I'd be all over them being OP.
Do I think Cavaliers are better than a plain paladin? Yes, absolutely. But there are significant downsides, so it doesn't strike me as OMFG BROKAN. You know?
I'm still not quite sure I get your beef with stalkers. That 20% extra stealth is great and all but they are the only ranger class that REALLY utilizes it. Most people I know keep their regular rangers in heavy armors and can't ever utilize stealth anyway. A stalker in BG1 is just a glorified fighter/thief, honestly. They'll barely hit x3 backstab at the level cap and will have a whopping 2 level 1 druid spells. Unless some other armor is added, the best they can equip is Studded Leather +2. AC 5? Terrible on a melee fighter. A multi fighter-mage can get that with robes of the archmage. Even thieves get access to Shadow Armor for AC4 + more stealth bonuses. So he can stealth really good. Big deal. Hardly a game-breaking OP ability considering a fighter/thief could mash his face into stealth skills and be just as good if not better than even a Stalker.
I agree Skald song is a bit over the top. The -2 AC is bigger than the extra thac0/damage in my mind. And Totemic Druid summons being immune to non-magic weapons, that is still the most game-breaking ability I can think of. If shapeshifters are properly implemented, they'd also be immune to non-magic weapons while in wolfwere form so that'd be even sillier as it's your PC and not just some summon.
Thanks for checking on the Stalker, glad to have that note about backstab damage for mine . Also shame on you for being level 4 and not having the Longsword +2 yet :P
I would like for them to be kitted, but as you said they can't due to contract.
Besides I see people make inane suggestions constantly anyway, so there would be too much fighting over it all. I'm sure someone would get changed to something and I would be mad.
Like @Kortok saying "Coran Swashbuckler, Montaron Assassin!" Dude seriously? They're multi-classed, that would be an awful thing to do! But other people would say it's an awesome idea, so yeah. Like I said, too much fighting over it amongst the community so I'm glad it's staying as it is.
I will gladly mod the game to kit them as I please if I can. But I wouldn't kit that many. Mainly, kit Safana a Swashbuckler.
@Dragonspear: This snip illustrates my point perfectly --
Honestly I never scout in stealth much. Always takes me forever to get into it and then breaks at bad times. Or worse, It holds up fine when I find the enemy, but then breaks while I wait for my party to catch up. Furthermore, if your ranger is level 4, you probably have at least 1 level 4 mage who can easily learn invisibility, cast it on your thief who's detecting traps and let them go detrap the entire map anyway, which is better than your stalker can do already.
You're right that some of this isn't gamebreaking, but it absolutely makes a discernible difference and it makes the game that much easier. I think it's important to consider overall game balance, and playstyles that might vary from yours, because these small, incremental changes can add up to de facto strats for everybody.
At level four, my stalker can stealth in broad daylight and it doesn't break. Further, I don't have to deal with your mage-invisibility-thief scenario because of my high stealth percentage. So not only does the kit give a specific advantage to one character, it also frees up resources across the party (in this example, in terms of gear and spell slots).
(Also, you wiseguy, Misc probably has the +2 longsword. He's the lead. :-D )
A 13 health rangern (Elf with 17 Con) can be 1 shot by an ogre by a regular hit.
I think the thing you're overlooking is that for rangers, AC is largely irrelevant. I tend to keep Kivan in studded leather because he rarely if ever takes any damage at all . Same goes for most of my party -- I've got one guy out front who's decked out in high avoidance/mitigation gear and everybody else is at maximum range with a bow or a sling.
The other thing you're overlooking is that rangers & archers have a superior APR for half the game. Xan would never get in range to swing that Moonblade, because he'd just get kited all over the map and get pelted at a rate of 2.5 attacks per round. Same goes for ogres or any other mob that gets too close.
@Brude makes a strong point but kits will be in BG:EE that's unavoidable the PC can use them and Dorn. So in one way we've already walked the path. So for the sake of Roleplaying integrity Some npcs should have kits.
@sandmanCCL I'd kinda like to look over your shoulder when you play sometime. Your parties and setups sound a lot more involved than mine.
I tend to run one melee guy out front, with five ranged guys waaaay behind. I don't bother equipping the melee guy with ranged weapons, because I want him running forward as quickly as possible, attracting attention and behaving as a piñata for the enemy mobs. For that role, a Cavalier with Spider's Bane would be perfect -- and pretty much unstoppable.
I think you and Dragonspear are both right in that there's a line between broken, overpowered, and a good bonus. I'm conservative in this area because I've played a lot of opening games in the last month in both unmodded vanilla and tutu. Until your entire party starts getting decent gear at around levels 4-5, small boosts in stats make the game noticeably easier. This is my only objection to the kits. The kind of take a lot of the edge off when you're starting out and struggling to level up. For me, that diminishes most of the fun.
(Also, haven't been there in awhile to double check, but several sources show a +2 throwing axe that returns to the user's hand on the third level of the Candlekeep Catacombs. So there's that.)
Like Kortok saying "Coran Swashbuckler, Montaron Assassin!" Dude seriously? They're multi-classed, that would be an awful thing to do! But other people would say it's an awesome idea, so yeah. Like I said, too much fighting over it amongst the community so I'm glad it's staying as it is.
I agree with the community fighting on it and am glad they are leaving well enough alone. Disagree with those two NPCs though, for different reasons.
Coran absolutely should not be a swashbuckler because he's not a pirate nor a seaman of any kind. Unless they make Saemon Havarian an NPC in BG2, I don't see anyone at all for RP reasons being a swashbuckler. If anything, I'd rather they totally reworked him to be a Stalker with racial enemies: wyverns. It'd still fit the characters.
BUT, I'd love it if they made Montaron a Fighter/Assassin. Yeah I know that's illegal, but he's one of the few NPCs in the game where there is nothing special about him. He's just got good stats. It'd hurt his thieving abilities quite a bit so you'd have to focus him on stealth, but meh. There's like 70000000000000 thieves in BG1.
@Brude: I typically have 3 guys in melee. One of them's sole purpose is to attract attention and dodge/absorb hits so I focus soley on AC with them. This is the classic "tank" role. Thankfully doing so usually requires I give them strength-boosting gear so they end up wrecking anyway. Other guy also has good AC but I am more worried about him doing lots of damage, and I call this role "Bruiser." Third is usually thief with melee weapons or a second "bruiser" type, and his focus is to hit-and-run. If there's a corner or tree or hut I can break LoS with, he's constantly running in and out, stealthing, and insta-gibbing guys. If he can't backstab, I give them potions and wands when it applies to help drop the nukes. Other three people are usually clerics and mages, lobbing rocks with their slings and casting spells.
If I roll someone who's focus is soley on ranged weaponry like a CHARNAME Archer, or Mazzy, I replace one of my bruisers depending on the rest of my party comp. The one thing that's set in stone for me is at least 2 arcane casters.
Comments
Guys like Kivan are already powerful & effective. Giving him Archer damage and hit bonuses would only help trivialize the core content.
Sleep (or Blindness against targets Sleep won't effect) and Hold Person are his two go-to spells. Buff him with Strength for that 18/50 roll and he hits for 7-14 damage.
Xan, Destroyer of Xvarts. Slayer of Kobolds.
I should prolly also give Jaheria a couple entangle spells at this point, the problem is that she's my only divine caster and also I have 4 melee characters (Khalid as the tank, Jaheria with a Quarterstaff +1, Main character with Varsconia and then Xan with his Moonblade.
As it stands, Kivan will already do ~40% of a party's entire damage in groups where the PC isn't a fighter or fighter derivative (paladin, ranger, etc). Same goes for NPCs like Coran.
The problem with kitting some NPCs and not others is that it makes having those NPCs in your party almost a requirement. In other words, giving flat, passive damage and hit bonuses to Kivan and Coran make Khalid and Shar-teel much less attractive.
One of the clever things about the original game was that you could complete it with almost any party composition.
Any low level party's biggest weakness is their high thac0s -- they can't hit anything. A Skald's song makes even Garrick and Jaheira into crack shots. Similarly, most low level enemy mobs have crap savings throws, so they're especially vulnerable to a Jester's song.
Other kits don't get those kind of bonuses but have their drawbacks minimized, or their kits enhanced, by easily obtainable gear at the start of the game. The Stalker doesn't get combat bonuses, but his natural +20% stealth is further enhanced by another +20% with those boots you can get outside of Beregost. A Sorcerer doesn't have access to her maximum number of level one spells until she reachers much higher levels, but can get that by grabbing the Ring of Wizardry that everyone knows about outside the Friendly Arm Inn.
Still others work too well against BG1 mechanics. A barbarian has a passive movement speed bonus. He can charge ranged enemies and force them to draw melee weapons, thus minimizing or flat out negating most of their damage potential.
Not playing Tutu so no doom unfortunately =(
I'll go in order to dispel your notions one at a time.
Disclaimer: All information will come from playithardcore.com, any complaints about information you should send to @SandmanCCL
Archer (Total BG1 benefits):
Total of +3 to hit, +3 to damage and the ability to make the target suffer a -1 save vs. magic penalty,
I'll give you this is a pretty powerful kit, possibly one of the most powerful for end game ToTSC. Really won't change much since ranged attacks are already very powerful in the game.
Swashbuckler:
-3 AC, +3 hit and damage
Again good, but definitely worse off than archers. If I'm correct, they still get the same thief weapon proficiency as regular thieves. This means they'll have a total of 4 proficiency points in the entire game. Considering the kit is setup around dual wielding, the best they can do is specialize in one weapon and put 2 points into dual wielding.
Skald:
Song grants +2 to hit and damage, -2 AC for the entire game. Definitely the best bard option for BG1 (Personally I'd still play a blade anyway), effect will be less noticeable as the game progresses as your gear starts to improve. Honestly is more powerful than the above 2 kits, will prolly end up being a choice for potential power gamers.
Stalker:
Yes he'll have all that stealth, but he doesn't even get x2 backstab until level 9 (Playithardcore is wrong here btw as @Tanthalas has tested).
Sorcerer:
I don't know if the Ring of Wizardry will work with Sorcerer spells, would be interesting to check but I hope not. I'd actually report that as a bug if it did.
Barbarian:
Honestly that's one of the benefits of the class, and when they do rush in they're limited to scale mail anyway.
All at the cost of not being able to backstab, which is pretty significant IMO. I actually think for BG1, a fighter/thief would be way better than a swashbuckler. Won't have as good damage but will have better thaco and can tank in a pinch with better armors.
Also not really buying Stalker as being "unbalanced" at low levels. He'll be able to stealth well from the get-go with those boots, but a regular ol' ranger can tank.
The only classes I see being totally unbalanced at low levels are the druid kits. Totemic Druid summons can beat BG1 for you without any problems at all save a handful of encounters. And Skald. Skald song is pretty crazy. Everything else I think has a fair trade-off.
Oh actually, lemme throw Paladin kits in there too. Not because they are significant bonuses in every sense per-se, but the biggest draw back to Inquistor literally never comes into play in BG1 because he'll never hit levels that let him cast spells anyway. I'm okay with Cavaliers actually even though they have the most significant bonuses, because losing out on ranged weapons is a HUGE drawback for BG1.
Testing stalker right now. At level 9, I'm doing triple rather than double backstabs in BG2. The backstab tables listed for them on PIH was taken out of the in-game description. If they don't triple backstab at level 9 in Tutu or BGT, it's an error in those mods.
+Mage spell items work for Sorcerers as they are counted as Mages, defiantly not a bug. It's how the game engine looks at them.
So Ring of Wizardry, etc would work.
Still through most of BG 1, all the Sorc would be doing is spam Magic Missle, and not much else :P...
Ya I only remember because I looked there once before, brought it to a thread and he went and tested it and said in Tutu it was wrong. They did start with x1 backstab and didn't get x2 until level 9. Which honestly I think is kinda silly. I'd like the kit a lot more if it started at x2 and went up to x4. Considering thieves can get x5 and assassins can get x7........
The description for the kit is wrong, and it's possible someone with one of the mods decided to make the game match the description rather than the description match the game.
I don't have BGtutu or EasyTutu installed right now or I'd go test it out in those games, too. I am pretty sure it was still working as intended but I'm lowish on installation space right now and don't feel like uninstalling Guild Wars 2 or Borderlands 2 for it.
@Tanthalas did you test in Tutu or in BGEE Beta?
I'd install Tutu myself right now @sandmanCCL but my fighter/mage is already in Cloakwood. Of course not particularly enjoying my fighter/mage atm but I think that's because I rushed to Coran too fast =(
I like that disclaimer you included there.
Rebuttal to your rebuttal:
Think about it two ways (1) these bonuses as items (2) and these bonuses are cost free. How valuable, in BG1, would a +1 hit, +1 damage bow be if you could find one in a barrel outside the Candlekeep Inn? What about endgame? A +3 bow would be one of the best items on the game, hands down. As would be a passive item that improved an entire group's AC when running either the Nashkel Mines or Cloakwood (ie, the Skald's song). That's what you're getting with the kits.
When everybody has crap thac0's (ie, greater than 10) small boosts can make a *massive* difference on 1d20 rolls.
Problem with the barbarian movement speed, like a lot of these other benefits, is that the original game wasn't designed with them in mind. So with a barbarian, the enemy AI isn't smart enough to run out of melee range and keep fighting with their bow (as they do with SCS installed). This makes otherwise potentially high damage encounters trivial; it's like getting a free Boots of Speed on your PC from level one. Couple that with a half-orc's or dwarf's racial benefits and it gets a bit ridiculous.
Likewise the Stalker. I've got two rangers right now. One in vanilla, one in Tutu. Both are level four. Similar thac0s and damage. The vanilla ranger has a stealth percent in the high sixties. The tutu stalker has a stealth percent over a hundred. So that's a clear advantage on paper, but it also means I could pass my only pair of stealth boots very early in the game to another character that could use them. Again, this is like getting a free pair of boots. This is more meaningful in BG1 because there are limited ways to improve your character outside of gear.
Also, regardless of backstab multiplier, the significant part is: that the Stalker can do it at all, and he still gets a +hit bonus by attacking from stealth. Again, at crap thac0 levels in the early game, this can make a significant difference. (At level four, my thac0 could drop from 10-11 to 6-7, for instance.)
@sandmanCCL I'd argue that, for the bulk of encounters, a ranged Swashbuckler is better than a straight thief, because giving up backstab in the wild isn't really all that much of a sacrifice at all. Unless you're really into that play style or role playing it, it's easier and more efficient for thieves to straight up attack in most situations. Granted, it's all good for boss rights but wandering around the wilderness, players are probably less inclined to backstab hobgoblins, vampiric wolves, and those Iron Throne guys.
Also, the Cavalier's bonuses are way over the top in a BG1 context. Immunity to poison, fear, charm, or whatever makes certain encounters trvial (eg sirines, spiders, etc), especially if this paladin is acting as your lead/tank type. Add Spider's Bane to that mix and you've made yourself a PC superman.
This is with a level 4 Elven Stalker (2 pips in longswords, +1 thac0 longsword equipped, base thac0 17, thac0 13):
If you look closely at that image, you can see chunks of that hobgoblin are now covering all of his friends.
Honestly you don't even need Spider's Bane. There is a pickpocketable NPC in Ulgoth's Beard that conviently has a ring of free action. Just saying.
Also I KNOW how powerful Cavaliers are in BGTutu. I ran with one through Chapter 5 before I finally said Meh, too easy (might have even been with the canon party I don't remember). That said, they CANNOT use ranged weapons, which honestly is a huge penalty in BG1. Sure you're going to be running at the archers etc from range, but having a ranged weapon (even as I continue to regularly run parties where most of them melee) on every character is a god send. It also multiplies when you start using stacking spells like Entangle, Web, Cloudkill, Stinking Cloud, Fireball/Skull Trap etc. By loading up with a significant amount of ranged weaponry, you open up even MORE spell options that normally might need seem attractive.
As far as Archers early and bows. Most enemies low level enemies you encounter (which is honestly where the archer would SEEM to be strongest, since end game ToTSC archers are already pushing 4-6 Thac0) already die in 1-3 arrows I doubt you'll notice much difference.
Re: Your stalker
Honestly I never scout in stealth much. Always takes me forever to get into it and then breaks at bad times. Or worse, It holds up fine when I find the enemy, but then breaks while I wait for my party to catch up. Furthermore, if your ranger is level 4, you probably have at least 1 level 4 mage who can easily learn invisibility, cast it on your thief who's detecting traps and let them go detrap the entire map anyway, which is better than your stalker can do already.
Do they give advantages, yes, after all that's why we're having this discussion. But I don't think the advantages are as game breaking as they may seem on paper. Well, other than totemic druids and fixed Shapeshifter kits.
Also I think Kivan in my party just hit level 5 and currently has a ranged Thac0 of 7 (Long Bow of Marksmenship and Bracers of Archery). Coran has a ranged Thac0 of 8 (Composite Longbow +1). Which means a level 8 archer will have a Thac0 of probably 1 or 2. If we end up getting the SoA versions of arrows and not the BG1 versions of arrows (the powerful elemental arrows of BG1 come to mind) you'll be able to do the following.
Base arrow:
1-6
Composite Longbow +1
+3 Damage
Archer (level 8)
+3 damage
(Don't remember if magical arrows also increase damage or To Hit)
But this means that you're arrows will be doing 7-13 damage with a Thac0 of 1-2. You know what, I'm fine with that, ESPECIALLY on a PC, who is restricted to studded leather. I'm going to hit you many times, poking away and you're going to like that.
By the way to give you a comparison. Your archer is doing less damage than XAN can do with his Moonblade with a strength spell on him. (7-15)
Ok granted, you'll have much better thac0 than Xan and an extra attack but I still hold that the archer kit won't be "OP". Powerful, definitely, but I don't believe it'll be game breaking. His initial AC will still be at best 4, (goes down to 6 with 18/19/20 dex, another -2 for Studded leather), and the best AC he will ever manage in game SHOULD be 2. If I recall correctly there is no studded leather +3 armor that a ranger can use (Shadow Master Armor is restricted to thieves), and no leather armor +4.
To give you a comparison, if Imoen casts Armor on herself (assuming you dual her to mage), she can get down to 1 AC just with the armor spell. Xan and Xzar will have an AC of 3 with armor up, and even Edwin will have an AC of 4. If you give any of the specialist mages Gauntlets of Dex and their respective Robe of the Archi Magi, they'll go down to AC0. It can be -1 with Shield up (Xan can't do this) and -3 v Missiles.
The point being, while they'll have more health than those characters above or a PC mage, they'll be more likely to be hit, so they have to be able to mow people down. A 13 health rangern (Elf with 17 Con) can be 1 shot by an ogre by a regular hit.
Didn't mean to imply swashbuckler wasn't GOOD. Just don't think it's totally imbalanced, because it doesn't necessarily do anything that a fighter/thief currently can't do. They just level a little quicker and get more thief points. Swashbucklers don't totally throw the game's balance off and I think are fine as is.
Compared to a fighter/thief, swashbuckler will have -1Thac0 (maybe more? not sure how thac0 works with multi-classed units) and +3Damage. Fighter/thief also gets +1/2 attacks per round. Swashbuckler also can't use Mithril Chain +4 (or the announced Elven Chain armor in BG:EE), which I believes evens out the AC. Best armor for a plain thief is Shadow Armor at 4 AC, Mithril Chain is 1 AC, so that +3 AC bonus a swashbuckler gets would even that out. The big, big difference here is backstabs. Losing out on that is a huge disadvantage compared to a fighter/thief.
And I don't know about you, but my thief guys are always in a position to stealth if I can help it. I utilize backstab at every opportunity. It's pretty easy to make them hang back out of sight or to break LOS with what you're going to attack if you run behind a tree or something even while the rest of your team is engaging.
I'd take a swashbuckler over a regular plain thief, sure. Just pointing out it's not gamebreaking and IMO doesn't need any tweaking to make it "balanced" because there's a legit class equivalent already in the game that no one is going to complain about.
I also think Cavaliers are fine. They'll mop up Sirenes and will make great tanks against spiders. But he straight up gets NO RANGED WEAPONS EVER. I think Throwing Axes are literally the only thing they can use from range and those things are so mega heavy it's impractical to lug around more than a stack.
So, again, really really good kit. But it isn't totally game-shattering. The way I handle Sirenes right now is run in, wait for someone to get charmed, then charm them right back on my team using Algernon's Cloak, something available before you should ever encounter any of them. Plus, potions of clarity are fairly cheap and you get one for free in Candlekeep. Essentially the same thing as Cavalier bonuses and lasts long enough, you could clear the zone with the CON Tome in it with just that one.
Until you get Spider's Bane (and that's only if you decide to go two-handed swords, which I personally never do on Cavaliers, because throwing axes), Entangle/Web shenanigans tend to gum up Cavaliers more than most. Anyone else can equip a sling or chuck darts, but he gets to just sit there and twiddle his thumbs til the spell is over. If there was a returning axe or dagger weapon in BG1, I'd be all over them being OP.
Do I think Cavaliers are better than a plain paladin? Yes, absolutely. But there are significant downsides, so it doesn't strike me as OMFG BROKAN. You know?
I'm still not quite sure I get your beef with stalkers. That 20% extra stealth is great and all but they are the only ranger class that REALLY utilizes it. Most people I know keep their regular rangers in heavy armors and can't ever utilize stealth anyway. A stalker in BG1 is just a glorified fighter/thief, honestly. They'll barely hit x3 backstab at the level cap and will have a whopping 2 level 1 druid spells. Unless some other armor is added, the best they can equip is Studded Leather +2. AC 5? Terrible on a melee fighter. A multi fighter-mage can get that with robes of the archmage. Even thieves get access to Shadow Armor for AC4 + more stealth bonuses. So he can stealth really good. Big deal. Hardly a game-breaking OP ability considering a fighter/thief could mash his face into stealth skills and be just as good if not better than even a Stalker.
I agree Skald song is a bit over the top. The -2 AC is bigger than the extra thac0/damage in my mind. And Totemic Druid summons being immune to non-magic weapons, that is still the most game-breaking ability I can think of. If shapeshifters are properly implemented, they'd also be immune to non-magic weapons while in wolfwere form so that'd be even sillier as it's your PC and not just some summon.
Thanks for checking on the Stalker, glad to have that note about backstab damage for mine
Besides I see people make inane suggestions constantly anyway, so there would be too much fighting over it all. I'm sure someone would get changed to something and I would be mad.
Like @Kortok saying "Coran Swashbuckler, Montaron Assassin!" Dude seriously? They're multi-classed, that would be an awful thing to do! But other people would say it's an awesome idea, so yeah. Like I said, too much fighting over it amongst the community so I'm glad it's staying as it is.
I will gladly mod the game to kit them as I please if I can. But I wouldn't kit that many. Mainly, kit Safana a Swashbuckler.
At level four, my stalker can stealth in broad daylight and it doesn't break. Further, I don't have to deal with your mage-invisibility-thief scenario because of my high stealth percentage. So not only does the kit give a specific advantage to one character, it also frees up resources across the party (in this example, in terms of gear and spell slots).
(Also, you wiseguy, Misc probably has the +2 longsword. He's the lead. :-D ) I think the thing you're overlooking is that for rangers, AC is largely irrelevant. I tend to keep Kivan in studded leather because he rarely if ever takes any damage at all . Same goes for most of my party -- I've got one guy out front who's decked out in high avoidance/mitigation gear and everybody else is at maximum range with a bow or a sling.
The other thing you're overlooking is that rangers & archers have a superior APR for half the game. Xan would never get in range to swing that Moonblade, because he'd just get kited all over the map and get pelted at a rate of 2.5 attacks per round. Same goes for ogres or any other mob that gets too close.
I tend to run one melee guy out front, with five ranged guys waaaay behind. I don't bother equipping the melee guy with ranged weapons, because I want him running forward as quickly as possible, attracting attention and behaving as a piñata for the enemy mobs. For that role, a Cavalier with Spider's Bane would be perfect -- and pretty much unstoppable.
I think you and Dragonspear are both right in that there's a line between broken, overpowered, and a good bonus. I'm conservative in this area because I've played a lot of opening games in the last month in both unmodded vanilla and tutu. Until your entire party starts getting decent gear at around levels 4-5, small boosts in stats make the game noticeably easier. This is my only objection to the kits. The kind of take a lot of the edge off when you're starting out and struggling to level up. For me, that diminishes most of the fun.
(Also, haven't been there in awhile to double check, but several sources show a +2 throwing axe that returns to the user's hand on the third level of the Candlekeep Catacombs. So there's that.)
Coran absolutely should not be a swashbuckler because he's not a pirate nor a seaman of any kind. Unless they make Saemon Havarian an NPC in BG2, I don't see anyone at all for RP reasons being a swashbuckler. If anything, I'd rather they totally reworked him to be a Stalker with racial enemies: wyverns. It'd still fit the characters.
BUT, I'd love it if they made Montaron a Fighter/Assassin. Yeah I know that's illegal, but he's one of the few NPCs in the game where there is nothing special about him. He's just got good stats. It'd hurt his thieving abilities quite a bit so you'd have to focus him on stealth, but meh. There's like 70000000000000 thieves in BG1.
@Brude: I typically have 3 guys in melee. One of them's sole purpose is to attract attention and dodge/absorb hits so I focus soley on AC with them. This is the classic "tank" role. Thankfully doing so usually requires I give them strength-boosting gear so they end up wrecking anyway. Other guy also has good AC but I am more worried about him doing lots of damage, and I call this role "Bruiser." Third is usually thief with melee weapons or a second "bruiser" type, and his focus is to hit-and-run. If there's a corner or tree or hut I can break LoS with, he's constantly running in and out, stealthing, and insta-gibbing guys. If he can't backstab, I give them potions and wands when it applies to help drop the nukes. Other three people are usually clerics and mages, lobbing rocks with their slings and casting spells.
If I roll someone who's focus is soley on ranged weaponry like a CHARNAME Archer, or Mazzy, I replace one of my bruisers depending on the rest of my party comp. The one thing that's set in stone for me is at least 2 arcane casters.