There are several factors I always take into account and they each contribute to the final decision. Some of them contradict.
Arguments for taking up Havarian's offer:
1. There isn't much Irenicus divulges as to where he is going. Taking a portal to Underdark of all places, when Saemon (trustworthy or not) had some dealings with him and might posses the knowledge, seemed always counterproductive to me. 2. My characters always suspect him of trying something but as long as I believe that he knows the destination, the matter of aquiring the knowledge is a smaller issue. He will give it voluntarily or under duress, but he will give it.
Arguments for using the portal:
1. Irenicus does say something to Bodhi about their 'friends in the dark' (or something like that), and 2. You suddenly learn about a portal to the Underdark - coincidence? I think not. We know that Irenicus can teleport but maybe he used other means of travel?
And then there are unknows:
1. Underdark is enormous. Almost of the size of Faerun, if I remember correctly. There is no guarantee that you'll end up where you want. Seeking Irenicus there would be virtually like trying to find a needle in a haystack. 2. Where did the portal come from? Was it there as a part of the Asylum? Or did Irenicus build it? Or did he simply calibrate it to lead where he wanted? Are there really traps on it? Maybe he left it there knowing you'll try to use it? Did he leave the portal as a trap? Irenicus left knowing you are alive and let's be honest, it's obvious he knew you would survive the fight with the assassins. On the other hand, he was genuinely surprised when we attacked him with our fellow prisoners. Did he even have the time to set a trap? Maybe, once Bodhi told him of our transformation to the Slayer. Maybe not.
So, to summarize, there is really no good choice here. One invovles plunging into unknown possibly trapped portal which MIGHT lead you where you want, the other one forces you to work with a professional backstabber who will surely betray you but who also had dealings with Bodhi i Irenicus and MIGHT posses the knowledge you require.
Well, my characters always take the boat with Saemon, fully expecting his trap and ready to act once he does betray me.
Very good points. Given that there are equally good reasons for choosing either option the answer is possibly just to ask "What would Charname do?". In other words, there is no 'right' answer for every play through, just the right answer for that particular play through.
I just finished the Spellhold yesterday and in my previous points I apparently forgot to mention that Saemon specifically tells us that he learned that Irenicus' main goal is to reach Suldanesselar. There is nothing apart from the mentioned "friends in the dark" that would suggest his involvement with the drow in the Underdark.
Also I forgot to take his diary, damn it. That would shed some light as to Saemon's credibility in this matter.
Of course you can also count on your team's opinion I can't imagine someone romancing Aerie going straight to the Underdark after she literally begs you not to go there and someone who values Korgan's good mood might be less inclined to take the boat
I skipped the Sahuagin City in my first walkthrough in the vanilla version years ago (trusting Saemon, seriously???). Then, talking with a friend, i realised that i missed a lot of things (a piece of the Wave and the Silver Sword) and of course the city. But i still think that trusting Saemon is dumb. It doesn't change that i always choose to follow him in my next walkthroughs
Sahuagin city contains: Gauntlet of the Cheesy monk Cloak of Master Cheesing An awesome beholder And the occasion to see a mimic of my favorite Forgotten Realms character, namely "Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff". Oh, and an army of walking sushis
Of course your character may well be following Saemon merely for the opportunity to gut him as soon as you get the opportunity (and possibly steal the ship for yourself... a fine prize). There's plenty of motives to follow him or not wish to try your luck to the "portal" option right away. Not least of which being following Irenicus down a portal would/should almost undoubtedly lead into a trap or dimension door you into the elemental plane of fire, or who even knows?
Saemon seems like enough of a chicken-shit that PC may well think he could be intimidated/coerced into actually being useful regardless of his trustworthiness, then slaughtered after he has served his purpose.
Generally I've been playing RPGs for so long that it's just instinct that anything you can do = treasure/loot/XP so P&P and computer game wise I simply try to always do/explore everything on general principal.
On a related issue, the first time in the fish city, my inventory was full so the trinket that got you in with the rebels was left forgotten, unobserved, on the ground... I ended up massacring everyone and dooming the entire city. XD
On a related issue, the first time in the fish city, my inventory was full so the trinket that got you in with the rebels was left forgotten, unobserved, on the ground... I ended up massacring everyone and dooming the entire city. XD
You see, Evil!Charname! Look at what you missed out on!
Evil!Charname: "I don't care if it was a city of puppies with signs over their heads screaming 'KICK ME'. I'm not going anywhere with that gods damned Salmon Barbarian."
Of course you can also count on your team's opinion I can't imagine someone romancing Aerie going straight to the Underdark after she literally begs you not to go there and someone who values Korgan's good mood might be less inclined to take the boat
This pretty much sums up why I ended up going with Saemon my first play-through of BG2. I just rescued Imoen after she'd been through so much, and she said she didn't want to go through the dark again... I just couldn't make her go through that.
Since then, though, I've done both. Mainly it depends on the character I'm RP-ing. I've never really regretted it either way.
The fishies smell funny. And Ixilthetocal and his bratty son Villynaty both have a weird fixation with teeth, and talk about their big sharky munchers a lot. I can appreciate a tooth brushing fetish or dentist fantasy as much as the next guy, but between all the 1-pound Sahuagin bolts flying around, and the ever-present smell of raw fish, and Senityili's death on betraying Ixilthetocal, I'm not sure playing sushi chef for a half hour and getting fish slapped by slimy sharks is really worth the mother of pearl cloak we all know to be so comfy on our cookie-cutter katana-and-scimitar-wielding Kensai/Sorcerer/Assassin/Mage/Kensais.
Still... The City of Caverns has some other worthy treats for the curious and adventurous adventurer. It IS quite nice to nab an extra set of magical rope for your most feisty adversaries. And it's such a pleasure being able to use the Impaler on those lithe, luscious illithids later on.
And who hasn't stood on Draconis' bloody corpse in TOB, after a long and weary joust with the illusionist wyrm, finally thrusting one last glorious plunge of the Impaler into his supple belly, and thought back to fond memories of playing "hide and seek" with the imps who taught us so much about life and love in the so-aptly named City of Caverns? And how many of us didn't understand the delicate art of tooth brushing until Villynaty invited us to his chambers and allowed us to clean Ixilthetocal's blood off of his long, sleek, white teeth, and he laughed so heartily as we shivered and sighed so breathless in the lap of the new king?
I frequently skip it and afterwards I more than often just blatantly cheat myself through the Underdark >.> Imo the Sahuagin city and the Underdark, while awesome, have the least replay value because the whole section doesn't give enough options in relation to it's length. I am also not the biggest fan of dungeons >.>
Aside from that, pretty much all of my Charname's are smart enough to distrust Havarian.
I always do the fish city (lol) for the sole reason of helping the rebel prince, then slaughtering everything in that city, I mean im generally an evil character. That and everyone on the forum knows im insane -cackle
Around 2002 I accidentally skipped the Sahuagin city once, and after noticing that skipping it is nothing but a loss of good equipment, I always chose the boat option, and to immediately punish Saemon for his cowardice and betrayal. A good chance for another 18.000 EXP.
I have done it, knowing what I would be missing out on. It was mostly due to the fact that at the time, due to all the mods I had installed Saemon did not spawn at the ship he was arranging to take you on. the first time I ever played Baldur's Gate 2 I went along with it, because I was playing a goody-two-shoes who was willing to give Saemon another chance.
These days I don't know. I am currently replaying the whole series from the first one, so we'll have to wait and see.
I didn't even know you could until much later. It's a cool option, but I prefer the long way around.
It's too much fun fighting pirates, fighting gythanki corsairs and getting sucked into underwaterworld, staging fishmen coup d'etat (or just fishmen holocaust). It's like tumbling down the rabbithole.
I skipped the city once on my first playthrough, now I justify going with Saemon by expecting Irenicus to trap his portal behind him. Never trust magic that you don't know exactly what it was designed to do.
I skipped the city once on my first playthrough, now I justify going with Saemon by expecting Irenicus to trap his portal behind him. Never trust magic that you don't know exactly what it was designed to do.
Makes sense. Saemon is a liar and backstabber, but weak. Irenicus is powerful. You have seen his traps and spells disintegrating people here and there, on top of that he just ripped your soul apart. Using one of his portals or items may be a scary prospect at the least. Saemon on the other hand, has no more allies, and is in a difficult situation and clearly no match for the party:he gets a finger of death up when he eventually betrays the party in the sea. (You can kill him in the ship, however he always comes back at ToB AND the narrator says he escapes through magical means in the 'sinking' mosaic screen which bothers me to no end.)
And if a character has any lore, open sea travel with a weak lying cheat on his last legs is MUCH more safer than braving the infamously deadly Underdark by using a potentially trapped device of a mastermind psychopath at any rate.
I killed Saemon the first chance I got, the treacherous scumbag. So I never even got the offer and only learned about the fish city while reading a walkthrough. I felt a little cheated. I was too deep in the Underdark to come back.
From a role playing perspective it can make sense to skip it. Saemon has proven to be untrustworthy and we're in a rush to regain our soul. Even without knowing that going with Saemon would lead to the city, if we think that the portal is a more direct route to regaining our soul and it doesn't require trusting someone who has already betrayed us, that can be the best option.
I'm not walking into any strange portals, I mean okay in bg series it just means missing out on some loot but in my experience with actual dnd I have been sent through time once thanks to one and another time it had a 2 in 6 chance of turning you into a statue and 100% chance to send you into the underdark and it was one way!
I went to the city the first time by accident and it actually took me a while to learn you could skip it, but I've never done it; I don't particularly love the place but the powergamer in me wants the free XP
Comments
Arguments for taking up Havarian's offer:
1. There isn't much Irenicus divulges as to where he is going. Taking a portal to Underdark of all places, when Saemon (trustworthy or not) had some dealings with him and might posses the knowledge, seemed always counterproductive to me.
2. My characters always suspect him of trying something but as long as I believe that he knows the destination, the matter of aquiring the knowledge is a smaller issue. He will give it voluntarily or under duress, but he will give it.
Arguments for using the portal:
1. Irenicus does say something to Bodhi about their 'friends in the dark' (or something like that), and
2. You suddenly learn about a portal to the Underdark - coincidence? I think not. We know that Irenicus can teleport but maybe he used other means of travel?
And then there are unknows:
1. Underdark is enormous. Almost of the size of Faerun, if I remember correctly. There is no guarantee that you'll end up where you want. Seeking Irenicus there would be virtually like trying to find a needle in a haystack.
2. Where did the portal come from? Was it there as a part of the Asylum? Or did Irenicus build it? Or did he simply calibrate it to lead where he wanted? Are there really traps on it? Maybe he left it there knowing you'll try to use it? Did he leave the portal as a trap? Irenicus left knowing you are alive and let's be honest, it's obvious he knew you would survive the fight with the assassins. On the other hand, he was genuinely surprised when we attacked him with our fellow prisoners. Did he even have the time to set a trap? Maybe, once Bodhi told him of our transformation to the Slayer. Maybe not.
So, to summarize, there is really no good choice here. One invovles plunging into unknown possibly trapped portal which MIGHT lead you where you want, the other one forces you to work with a professional backstabber who will surely betray you but who also had dealings with Bodhi i Irenicus and MIGHT posses the knowledge you require.
Well, my characters always take the boat with Saemon, fully expecting his trap and ready to act once he does betray me.
Also I forgot to take his diary, damn it. That would shed some light as to Saemon's credibility in this matter.
Of course you can also count on your team's opinion
Then, talking with a friend, i realised that i missed a lot of things (a piece of the Wave and the Silver Sword) and of course the city.
But i still think that trusting Saemon is dumb.
It doesn't change that i always choose to follow him in my next walkthroughs
Gauntlet of the Cheesy monk
Cloak of Master Cheesing
An awesome beholder
And the occasion to see a mimic of my favorite Forgotten Realms character, namely "Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff".
Oh, and an army of walking sushis
Saemon seems like enough of a chicken-shit that PC may well think he could be intimidated/coerced into actually being useful regardless of his trustworthiness, then slaughtered after he has served his purpose.
Generally I've been playing RPGs for so long that it's just instinct that anything you can do = treasure/loot/XP so P&P and computer game wise I simply try to always do/explore everything on general principal.
Evil!Charname: "I don't care if it was a city of puppies with signs over their heads screaming 'KICK ME'. I'm not going anywhere with that gods damned Salmon Barbarian."
Um... His name is Sae--
Evil!Charname: "I KNOW WHAT HIS NAME IS.
*hands up*
*backs away slowly*
Since then, though, I've done both. Mainly it depends on the character I'm RP-ing. I've never really regretted it either way.
Still... The City of Caverns has some other worthy treats for the curious and adventurous adventurer. It IS quite nice to nab an extra set of magical rope for your most feisty adversaries. And it's such a pleasure being able to use the Impaler on those lithe, luscious illithids later on.
And who hasn't stood on Draconis' bloody corpse in TOB, after a long and weary joust with the illusionist wyrm, finally thrusting one last glorious plunge of the Impaler into his supple belly, and thought back to fond memories of playing "hide and seek" with the imps who taught us so much about life and love in the so-aptly named City of Caverns? And how many of us didn't understand the delicate art of tooth brushing until Villynaty invited us to his chambers and allowed us to clean Ixilthetocal's blood off of his long, sleek, white teeth, and he laughed so heartily as we shivered and sighed so breathless in the lap of the new king?
Grrr. Between university work, Pool of Radiance, and Dragon Age: Inquisition I don't have time to add BG for another complete playthrough >_<
Guess I'll rush Inquisition since I'm near the end, just need to do some companion quests and the final segment of the story.
Imo the Sahuagin city and the Underdark, while awesome, have the least replay value because the whole section doesn't give enough options in relation to it's length. I am also not the biggest fan of dungeons >.>
Aside from that, pretty much all of my Charname's are smart enough to distrust Havarian.
These days I don't know. I am currently replaying the whole series from the first one, so we'll have to wait and see.
It's too much fun fighting pirates, fighting gythanki corsairs and getting sucked into underwaterworld, staging fishmen coup d'etat (or just fishmen holocaust). It's like tumbling down the rabbithole.
And if a character has any lore, open sea travel with a weak lying cheat on his last legs is MUCH more safer than braving the infamously deadly Underdark by using a potentially trapped device of a mastermind psychopath at any rate.