sorc level 3 picks

mumumomo

Hi all,
Despite my long experience with sorcerers, i am wondering which level 3 spells i should take for my latest sorc. Please note that this is for solo (mostly) no reload game.

The first 3 picks are obvious to me :
- MMM
- haste
- skull trap

For the last 2 i am pondering between :
- slow : nice debuff but i never use it much
- remove magic : same thing, useful in theory but i prefer to deal with magic users using improve invis and MMM and in the end i never use it.
- flame arrow : good damage but completely inferior to skull trap for a solo char (magic damage immunity is easy to get to be able to use skull trap at point blank, lots of fire immune, no aoe)
- vampiric drain : damage is really poor but the added hp can be interesting.
- ghost armor : good ac but not really interesting as a 4th pick (stoneskin is already there, ac bracers give almost the same ac)
- minor spell deflection. Would be very good if it gave deflection againsy level 8 spells (i hate maze traps...). Not so good with protection limited to level 7 (improve invis is a better protection against casters)
- invis on 3m could be ok but i already have the level 2 version

Everything else seems useless to me

What do you think?

Thanks for the help

Gotural

If playing solo and no-reload, I would advice against Haste, because you won't benefit much from buffing yourself with this. You can buff your summons of course, but it is still far inferior to buffing a whole party.
The same is true for Slow.

Remove Magic / Dispel Magic is very very good if you are playing solo because you will often be very overleveled compared to your enemies. In a party these spells are less powerful.

IMO, never ever pick two damaging spells of the same level, because by using one you will also consume the other, each time you use Flame Arrow, you cannot use Skull Trap, and both have the same effect and goal.

Ghost Armor is average. Spirit Armor (4th level) is awesome.

Minor Spell Deflection is awesome if you're playing no-reload in BG1, especially with SCS. But in BG2 and further, it is less useful.

I'd like to apologize for my poor english, I'm horribly tired !

DreadKhan

Don't bother with haste, you aren't a fighter. Slow is soundly surpassed by Web in many circumstances. Flame Arrow has a very specific utility, being a high damage single target spell... seeing as you won't have a party, Skulltrap is almost always better. In a pinch, MMM lets you target selectively. Minor Spell Deflection might be a good bet.

Abi_Dalzim

I don't solo that often, but logic suggests that you avoid Dispel Magic in favor of Remove Magic. If there's some condition on you that you'd wanna dispel, you'd probably be in no position to cast Dispel anyways. Also, I'd agree that you don't need Haste, not when Boots of Speed are available. Maybe if you planned to use summons later, but otherwise no.

semiticgoddess

Vampiric Touch is a good choice. The damage isn't too impressive, but the HP is substantial, adding 30 on average for 50 rounds, and sometimes the bonus HP is multiplied for reasons I don't fully understand. I've seen my Charname gain over 90 HP on casting Vampiric Touch.

DreadKhan

semiticgod said:

Vampiric Touch is a good choice. The damage isn't too impressive, but the HP is substantial, adding 30 on average for 50 rounds, and sometimes the bonus HP is multiplied for reasons I don't fully understand. I've seen my Charname gain over 90 HP on casting Vampiric Touch.

For a pure Sorcerer, 30 HP is a generous buff for sure. The damage can be handy for polishing off enemies, but a pure sorcerer IMHO might get less utility out of it than a mage... but then, you are only using one known spell, and 3rd level spells are not game changers for a solo other than Skulltrap and probably MMM, so Vampiric Touch is a decent pick.

CrevsDaak

Haste is a must guys. Otherwise you'll have to waste level 6 spells on extra castings of Improved Haste just to go a bit faster.

I would pick (Slow||Vampiric Touch||Remove Magic||Flame Arrow), forget about the others and put together which you want from L3 according to your lower level spells (e.g. if you've got Melf's Acid Arrow and Magic Missile don't bother with Flame Arrow, if you're going to choose/have chosen Polymorph, don't pick Slow, if you're yet in BG1 wait a bit until you pick Vampiric Touch, if you plan on getting the Staff of the Magi early don't pick Remove Magic, etc).

DreadKhan

@CrevsDaak ever try Boots of Speed? why bother with Haste at all for a solo sorc, unless you're going to use the Wand of Summoning very judiciously.

abacus

Haste isn't for you... It's for your minions!

Hasted Skellies or MordySwords are awesome!

CrevsDaak

@DreadKhan the Boots of Speed won't save your skin nor your time. Haste + Paws of the Cheetah is the only way to go.

Jaheiras_Witness

Remove Magic isn't an option, it's an absolute must, as is Spell Thrust if you're playing with SCS (skip Spell Thrust for vanilla). The other spells you mention are all good options.

mumumomo

Thanks for the answers.
A few more questions and remarks:

How to you get 30HP with vampiric drain? the test i've made yielded something like 10-15?

Regarding haste, it is clearly a must have:
- you aren't a fighter but the extra mobility alone is a great asset (it makes you completely immune to meleers). Boots of speed are great but are rather hard to get early (astral prison is one of the hardest quest to do early)
- as a solo sorc, summons are an essential part of my strategy. Haste doubles the efficiency of most summons (skellies, mordy sword). Casting haste on 5 mordy sword has a much greater effect than casting it on 2 fighters who have already 3-4 APR.

semiticgoddess

@mumumomo: Vampiric Touch is supposed to add 6d6 HP to the caster at level 12, but I've checked the files and it doesn't actually do this. It has a certain percent chance of adding a certain set amount of HP, and the average is a little over 30, whereas a 6d6 roll would on average add like 21 or something. I've checked the file in DLTCEP and it matches the behavior I've seen in my own games. Casting it at level 6 would result in about 10-15 HP.

DreadKhan

@CrevsDaak what on earth are you talking about, you can use Oil of Speed with boots for exploitive superspeed. There is tons of Oil of Speed, and a Sorcerer has no need for it for anything but running away faster. Respectfully disagree!

As for summons, just man up and use Webs and Spider Spawn in BG1, and most of BG2. A couple webs and a couple spiders are usually much better than the 1 or 2 skeletons you get until lvl 15. Even then, if an enemy can be webbed, and many can, spiders will be The best summon possible.

You are free to take haste, but its by no means required. Its better in BG1, where you can abuse the Wand of Summoning, except 1 use clears stuff up pretty reliably.

Comparing casting haste for two high level warriors vs casting *5* Mordenkainen's Swords and then casting haste is absurd. If you can cast 5 7th level spells, you can cast Improved Haste twice more easily on those two Fighters, and get a much stronger offense. Haste is for parties unable to caste improved haste. Besides, force swords are summoned as durable shields, not offensive weapons in most circumstances.

Musigny

@DreadKhan
As far as I know, "paws of the Cheetah" is the new name for the boots of speed in the EE version.
@Crevsdaak made a subtle joke.

mumumomo

Don't worry web + spider spawn is my main tactic until level 15.
Skellies are completely useless before that level.

I think you missed my point in the comparison of casting haste on mordy sword vs casting it on fighters.

It was not to say that haste mordy sword are better (they clearly are not) but that relatively, haste doubles the damage of the summons while it barely adds a 25 percent increase for the fighters. Comparatively you need to cast 2 level 6 spells to get a comparable relative increase.

Therefore, stating that haste is a poor choice for a solo sorc while it's good with a group is a nonsense.

Also 5 hasted swords will tear through anything which cannot cast death spells.

Anyway, I agree that haste is not required (no spell picks are, there is so many OP possibilities) but it is both very convenient (normal running speed being so slow) and powerful (doubles the power of some summons)

Since all other level 3 spells (apart from MMM, the best early pick and skull trap, the best pick for the end game) are only barely useful, haste is an obvious pick for me.

CrevsDaak

@DreadKhan Oils of Speed are a relic in BG2 AFAIK (I mean, just not as easy to find as in BG1, where there are a ton of them), and if you're playing solo I'd rather not waste inventory space on them (not even with Bags of Hoarding/Holding, those a for the l00t), and use my Potion Case(s) to keep more useful Potions for a Sorcerer (Potion of Freedom before Spellhold, anyone? Potion of Fire Breath, to easily deal with Werewolves? Antidotes, since you're a fucking sorcerer solo and can't cast Slow Poison save for the Bhaalspawn innate? Potions of Strength to carry moar ztuff? There are a lot of things much better than an Oil of Speed for a Sorcerer solo), and, Haste can be used over summons, which is pretty good if you're using hoards of Mordies (as many people whom solo Sorcerers do) or just sending a band of Skellies and Spiders at full speed to kill some fighters when you're out of PfMW (or just don't want to waste it).

Besides, there aren't so many 3rd level spells that are worth being on a Sorcerer's spellbook. Maybe Slow, Remove Magic, Flame Arrow, Vampiric Touch or Hold, but I couldn't think of many other useful level 3 spells (for a Sorcerer solo, right).

Also, Haste is great in the final battle with Ascension: all those Tanar'ri and Baatezu Hasted and in your side? Say goodbye to Yaga-Shura with his 99% resistance to everything but cold, same goes for Sarevok, since those two just hack-and-slash and can't fight back so many enemies.

wubble

CrevsDaak said:

Besides, there aren't so many 3rd level spells that are worth being on a Sorcerer's spellbook. Maybe Slow, Remove Magic, Flame Arrow, Vampiric Touch or Hold, but I couldn't think of many other useful level 3 spells (for a Sorcerer solo, right).

Fireball/skull trap?

DreadKhan

CrevsDaak said:

@DreadKhan Oils of Speed are a relic in BG2 AFAIK (I mean, just not as easy to find as in BG1, where there are a ton of them), and if you're playing solo I'd rather not waste inventory space on them (not even with Bags of Hoarding/Holding, those a for the l00t), and use my Potion Case(s) to keep more useful Potions for a Sorcerer (Potion of Freedom before Spellhold, anyone? Potion of Fire Breath, to easily deal with Werewolves? Antidotes, since you're a fucking sorcerer solo and can't cast Slow Poison save for the Bhaalspawn innate? Potions of Strength to carry moar ztuff? There are a lot of things much better than an Oil of Speed for a Sorcerer solo), and, Haste can be used over summons, which is pretty good if you're using hoards of Mordies (as many people whom solo Sorcerers do) or just sending a band of Skellies and Spiders at full speed to kill some fighters when you're out of PfMW (or just don't want to waste it).

Besides, there aren't so many 3rd level spells that are worth being on a Sorcerer's spellbook. Maybe Slow, Remove Magic, Flame Arrow, Vampiric Touch or Hold, but I couldn't think of many other useful level 3 spells (for a Sorcerer solo, right).

Also, Haste is great in the final battle with Ascension: all those Tanar'ri and Baatezu Hasted and in your side? Say goodbye to Yaga-Shura with his 99% resistance to everything but cold, same goes for Sarevok, since those two just hack-and-slash and can't fight back so many enemies.

I'm with @wubble you should definayely not be relying on low damage per round things like potions of firebreath vs fast regenerating enemies. That seems borderline crazy to me for a sorcerer in BG2. You can't use any good potions of strength, just the 18 str junk ones, meaning a girdle is the only choice for powerlifting tons of heavy stuff. For poison, you need what, 5 antidotes on hand maybe? Its not like you're easy to poison, as nobody should be hitting you, due to summons, liberal PFMW, locking down enemies and just straight up spell blasting them.

Vs mook fighters, why ever fight them? You can just walk past with invisibility. No need to kill every orc in every dungeon, its just tedious to do so. Yes, you can haste your summons, but you can also cast Skull Trap to anihilate whatever your summons were going to fight, or web and use sword spiders, thus saving higher level slots.

As for oil of speed being rarer, you don't need hyperspeed very often with a solo sorcerer. You aren't a thief, so you arent running off to hide for backstab or setting scary traps. I agree you might use it at times, but there are oils enough for that, especially since you can freely abuse the Staff of the Magi for invisibility at will.

I have a distinct feeling you are yanking my chain a bit good sir.

hispls

I got an awful lot of mileage out of MMM. Probably my most used 3rd level.

Yannir

Regarding Spirit Armor, any armor spell feel redundant to me. As a solo if you are getting hit in the 1st place, you are doing it wrong. So any AC you need should come from gear.

I'd favor Haste over IH, since you are a sorcerer. Haste doubles movement and gives +1 APR. IH doubles movement and APR but since your APR is 1 as a sorcerer, you double either way. Only way I see IH being useful is by combining it with MMM, a summon or Tenser's, etc.. Not taking IH saves you one more lvl 6 spell, and many of those are golden.

elminster

I'd probably go with Remove Magic.