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Brass blade +5

2

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    It's been a long, long, LONG discussion of what is "true" grandmastery. The original BG2 at least only added 1/2 APR in total at 5 pips - can't say what BG1 did, it's been too long and I barely replayed that before the EE. But I guess that +1 more APR idea must have come from somewhere!

    And then of course there's also IWD:EE, where GM does in fact add a total of +3/2 APR, with the final +1 APR at the 5th pip. More to support this supposed "true" grandmastery I guess.

    Personally, I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, 5 pips should be a significant advantage, considering you put all your eggs in one basket. On the other hand, this makes fighters, and especially fighter duals, so good you hardly ever want to run anything else. Dilemma!

    DreadKhan
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058

    It's been a long, long, LONG discussion of what is "true" grandmastery. The original BG2 at least only added 1/2 APR in total at 5 pips - can't say what BG1 did, it's been too long and I barely replayed that before the EE. But I guess that +1 more APR idea must have come from somewhere!

    And then of course there's also IWD:EE, where GM does in fact add a total of +3/2 APR, with the final +1 APR at the 5th pip. More to support this supposed "true" grandmastery I guess.

    Personally, I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, 5 pips should be a significant advantage, considering you put all your eggs in one basket. On the other hand, this makes fighters, and especially fighter duals, so good you hardly ever want to run anything else. Dilemma!

    I think it's fine to think of +3/2 attacks being part of "True Grandmastery" but I think it should only be implemented like this if the other aspects of True Grandmastery are implemented as well like no further specialisation after a dual, no GM for most kits, only one weapon mastered at a time etc.

    In BG2 I think it's perfectly balanced that you can do so much more with GM but consequently only get +1 attack in total.

    TJ_Hookersubtledoctor
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514
    Its funny, because dual out fighters are generally less effective come ToB, or when you hit 3m xp, but IWD, which has better GM has no HLAs to reward multi-classes. Duals are much better in IWD vs BG, yet BG has extra rewards for multi-classes.

    In vanilla BG1 without TotSC, you couldn't legally get GM, so I wonder how TotSC did it precisely, as I don't remember.

    Mind you, vanilla BG2 GM was garbage, to the point that Fighters were pretty suboptimal warriors. So its better now, but overpowered GM would be less of an imbalance in BG2 than it is in IWD.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,901
    @TJ_Hooker: That's odd. And I had heard somebody say that Khalid had the advantage, unlike another character (Minsc?) of being able to reach grandmastery. There was space for five pips but they never permitted more than four?

  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,514

    @TJ_Hooker: That's odd. And I had heard somebody say that Khalid had the advantage, unlike another character (Minsc?) of being able to reach grandmastery. There was space for five pips but they never permitted more than four?

    You need 7 pips total to hit GM if you can only specialize at lvl 1.

    TJ_Hooker
  • KaiketsuKaiketsu Member Posts: 33
    Idk, talking about balance in a single player game is weird, and in BG/BG2 especially, which is (even with SCS) plagued by ridiculously overpowered tactics that just stomp the game content.

    So really, whether true GM gives you 3/2 or 2/2 attack means squat in the big picture. I use true GM mod because I think "grand mastery" should reward for the kind of ridiculous specialization you put yourself through. After all, it's really hard to find a weapon class that has excellent progression throughout the game and on top of that if you have to do it for several characters, things get quite grim.

    By progression I mean weapons that are useful throughout all the series. Maces for example are super strong in BG1 (Stupefier is just a killer) and useful in BG2 (Mace of disruption), and Storm Star is decent, easy to get & easy to upgrade. So they are good for a GM and you never suffer due to lack of weapons.

    But for example flails... there's mostly generic +1, +2 stuff almost all through the game (with "only decent" FoA +3 and FoA +4 in ToB), and the killer weapon, FoA+5 which is really a fantastic piece of weaponry is obtainable ... right before Ravager and Melissan, which is what, 0.1% total play time ?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    Kaiketsu said:

    But for example flails... there's mostly generic +1, +2 stuff almost all through the game (with "only decent" FoA +3 and FoA +4 in ToB), and the killer weapon, FoA+5 which is really a fantastic piece of weaponry is obtainable ... right before Ravager and Melissan, which is what, 0.1% total play time ?

    I agree that weapon type variety is not particularly well done (I recommend the Item Revisions mod to address that), but FoA+3 is a really, really good weapon for most of SoA. Not just right when you get it (which is ridiculously early I might add) but even later on. Other weapon types have a LOT more problems (bastard sword or axe for example).

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,058
    Kaiketsu said:

    Idk, talking about balance in a single player game is weird, and in BG/BG2 especially, which is (even with SCS) plagued by ridiculously overpowered tactics that just stomp the game content.

    So really, whether true GM gives you 3/2 or 2/2 attack means squat in the big picture. I use true GM mod because I think "grand mastery" should reward for the kind of ridiculous specialization you put yourself through. After all, it's really hard to find a weapon class that has excellent progression throughout the game and on top of that if you have to do it for several characters, things get quite grim.

    By progression I mean weapons that are useful throughout all the series. Maces for example are super strong in BG1 (Stupefier is just a killer) and useful in BG2 (Mace of disruption), and Storm Star is decent, easy to get & easy to upgrade. So they are good for a GM and you never suffer due to lack of weapons.

    But for example flails... there's mostly generic +1, +2 stuff almost all through the game (with "only decent" FoA +3 and FoA +4 in ToB), and the killer weapon, FoA+5 which is really a fantastic piece of weaponry is obtainable ... right before Ravager and Melissan, which is what, 0.1% total play time ?

    I think "True Grandmastery" should also be accompanied by an item randomisation mod, meta knowledge is just too easy to cheese.

    GM in flails is totally fine, by the time the pips make a noticeable difference in BG1 the Thresher is available for purchase. In BG2 the FoA is an amazing weapon and is available straight away. Defender of Easthaven among others compliment it nicely.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,901
    If you think about it, this is a pretty long thread for a weapon that's not even in BG2.

    Yannir
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595

    If you think about it, this is a pretty long thread for a weapon that's not even in BG2.

    No one has even mentioned the weapon the last 10 comments or so.. :smiley:

    Quartz
  • KaiketsuKaiketsu Member Posts: 33

    Kaiketsu said:

    But for example flails... there's mostly generic +1, +2 stuff almost all through the game (with "only decent" FoA +3 and FoA +4 in ToB), and the killer weapon, FoA+5 which is really a fantastic piece of weaponry is obtainable ... right before Ravager and Melissan, which is what, 0.1% total play time ?

    I agree that weapon type variety is not particularly well done (I recommend the Item Revisions mod to address that), but FoA+3 is a really, really good weapon for most of SoA. Not just right when you get it (which is ridiculously early I might add) but even later on. Other weapon types have a LOT more problems (bastard sword or axe for example).
    I disagree on bastard and axe.

    Foebane +3 lies unprotected on 1st level of watcher's keep - so nope. Unless you can't access Watcher's keep in BG2EE straight away after Irenicus dungeon, of course.

    And Stonefire+3 is completely on par with FoA+3, plus, there's a ton of interesting throwing axes around to un-clog the front line a bit.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,901
    @Kaiketsu: If you go to WK at too low a level, Odren will suggest you come back when you're at a higher level. But he'll agree to let you in if you tell him you can handle it.

    You can get the Paladin's Bracers and some other nice loot from WK without fighting a single critter. But Foebane requires a fight.

  • mumumomomumumomo Member Posts: 635
    If i recall correctly, in vanilla BG, you could allocate your 4 level 1 PIPS in one proficiency, allowing you to reach GM at level 3 (i could be wrong though).

    Stonefire and Foa do the same damage but Foa has the slow effect which is extremely powerful (25% to proc, no save). Because of that slow effect it remains one of the best Soa weapon even at the end of the game.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,708
    mumumomo said:

    If i recall correctly, in vanilla BG, you could allocate your 4 level 1 PIPS in one proficiency, allowing you to reach GM at level 3 (i could be wrong though).

    Nope. In the original BG2 you could put everything into grandmastery (with 1 left over) at the start. Its possible that is how TuTu handles this as well, but the original BG1 wouldn't let you put more than ** in anything at character creation.

  • KaiketsuKaiketsu Member Posts: 33
    edited March 2015
    mumumomo - I'm not a big fan of the "slow" effect. It doesn't really do that much. And you have to proc it (can't remember what the chance was, 25% or 35%) when directly hitting the target.

    If you value the slow effect however, you can always cast it, the "slow" spell is merely a level 3 spell and it has -4 to save, so it should work in SoA most of the time, plus it's IIRC AoE and there's no need to hit targets and pray for the 25% proc chance to trigger. So it comes when you actually may need it, unlike the unreliable melee-range single target slow from FOA.

    I'm not a big fan of the FoA flail. It's too much of a tease. While it's great in SoA, it's however annoying to know that the awesome upgrade is just something to use for like 10 mins before game ends. :X

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,901
    FoA is valued as much for the elemental damage as the slow effect. It's the single best weapon for disrupting spells through Stoneskin that doesn't require a failed save (as Celestial Fury and poisonous weapons do).

    Quartz
  • KaiketsuKaiketsu Member Posts: 33
    edited March 2015
    Every weapon with elemental damage does that.

    By the way, Club of Detonation +5 is often ignored, but it's actually 2nd best (19.0 avg damage) to FoA+5 and it can be acquired at the start of ToB.

    Of course the fireball may be a little annoying, but at that point, everyone & their mom makes saves vs. spell, so it probably won't have much impact on your team (there's also a ton of fire resistance items in the game).

    There is a drawback, though: all demons are immune to fire, and there's plenty of them in ToB.

    Post edited by Kaiketsu on
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    FoA is significantly better than Stonefire. Not only does it do multiple elemental damage (helping with resistances/immunities), it is also a blunt weapon, the least-resisted damage type (also means clerics can use it). And the slow is quite powerful: it applies with no save, and slowed enemies not only have their APR halved, they also receive a -4 penalty to their armor class and attack rolls.

    So yes, while the damage is equal, FoA+3 is considerably stronger than Stonefire - and of course, there isn't even a contest between FoA+5 and the other end-game axes. I wouldn't want to invest in a weapon category that ends in a pretty underwhelming item...

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,055
    DreadKhan said:

    Its funny, because dual out fighters are generally less effective come ToB, or when you hit 3m xp, but IWD, which has better GM has no HLAs to reward multi-classes. Duals are much better in IWD vs BG, yet BG has extra rewards for multi-classes.

    In vanilla BG1 without TotSC, you couldn't legally get GM, so I wonder how TotSC did it precisely, as I don't remember.

    Mind you, vanilla BG2 GM was garbage, to the point that Fighters were pretty suboptimal warriors. So its better now, but overpowered GM would be less of an imbalance in BG2 than it is in IWD.

    and duals *should* be better because of the hassle of dualing. iwd:ee has it spot on when it comes to something you could call balance.

    Quartz
  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    Mourn Blade or Storm Bringer? Mmmm I would go with that and not go to Castle Brass... The best/worst weapon though is the turn to stone long sword that stone the foe but also destroys all his loot... I never used it becasue of that - but +10 fire damage would make a lot of cool burnt body deaths- those meat chunk deaths are old... but going through ashing all the bad guys would be a fresh effect-

    does it char like a fireball for the corpse effect? Oh sorry if I am too grim- I blame it on desensitivity due to palying GTA...

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 6,805
    @Beowulf It will only play the fire death animation you describe if it does overkill fire damage. That would be at least 10 damage over what needed to be done for a kill. Since the sword only does +10 fire damage I think it is incapable of doing this.

    That viper long sword is quite the odd thing... but you can block all lot destruction from petrify/cold/disintegrate/level drain kills if you turn gore off. The downside is that you just turned gore off and you don't get to see the cool effects, but loot is more important I guess.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @Lord_Tansheron Are you really calling Axe of the Unyielding underwhelming? It's a 1-handed Ravager since it has the same decapitation effect with same chance as well. And you get to use it much longer than Ravager +6 or FoA +5. AotU beats the crap out of every blade in the game. It's right there with FoA, CF, DoE and others as one of the best 1-handers in this game.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    @Yannir: Can you name one relevant enemy that isn't immune to the axe's vorpal hits? So it kills random orcs and goblins in one hit from time to time. Oh dear!

    By the time you get AotU+5 there is practically nothing left that it would actually be useful against. Anything you can't decapitate with it you just do pitiful damage against, compared to the alternative weapons you could be using.

  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @Lord_Tansheron Draconis for instance. And I don't care what your precious Keeper (or whatever..) says, I just killed him with a vorpal hit not 15 minutes ago. Pure chance actually, I wasn't testing this. He was killed by my planetar and it was a vorpal hit.

    Besides, it doesn't matter if you can't one-hit-kill any of the Five or Melissan with the weapon. It's in the game to punch through mobs effectively.

    And anyway the point wasn't to say it's the best 1-handed weapon in BG2, which it isn't. Maybe it was too subtle but you dismissing somebody else's opinion with a comment like that is arrogant. So somebody doesn't like to use FoA, so what? It's not your problem. Especially on a thread with a totally different topic.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,901
    TOB weapons are uniformly spectacular. But a critical component of the utility of an item is WHEN you get it. What good is an item if you have few opportunities to use it?

    Some items come early, and will therefore provide more power over the course of the game. Belm, Celestial Fury, FoA, Kundane, Firetooth (crossbow), the Light Crossbow of Speed, Frostreaver, the Shadow Thief Dagger, Gnasher, and Lilarcor are available early and therefore are especially helpful.

    Crom Faeyr, Jhor the Bleeder, the Staff of the Magi, Ram, Ravager, the Silver Sword, AotU, Impaler, Ixil's Spike, and Angurvadal are stronger than some of these weapons. But you'll have fewer fights to use them in by the time you can get them.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,569
    You can get the Staff of the Magi really early though. As soon as chapter two to be exact. Just go pick the rogue stone in one of the following location:
    Trademeet (Given to you as reward when you get rid of the djinnis)
    MaeVar guild second floor (room with like 15 locks to pick)

    Then you can head to bridge district and get your staff
    Same for Ring of Gaxx: get one of the anti-undead weapon (daystar, burning earth, frostreaver), grab a scroll of magical protection, and get your gaxx ring in less than 1h after starting the game

    Quartz
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 9,901
    @Arunsun: I was referring not to the staff's location, but to the difficulty of the fight. High levels or green scrolls are usually necessary to win that battle, unless you're really familiar with the battle. It's doable, but the difficulty is on par with some late-game battles. I'd say it's harder than the fight with Irenicus at the Tree of Life, with or without SCS.

    The Staff of the Magi is much harder to get than the early-game items I mentioned, hence my grouping it with the late-game items.

    elminsterQuartz
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,569
    @semiticgod : It is true I might be a little biased of this fight (always cheesed it, and I know it by heart so I have become an expert at cheesing this fight)

    semiticgod
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