[BG EE & BG2 EE] Add Elven Druids

justfeelinathome

Pretty please? I've started playing one in IWD EE and must say, that I would very much like to do so in the BG Saga. I've always been wondering why elvenkind, which seems to be one, if not the race that is closest in touch with nature, could not be of this class. ?:-/ After all Suldanessellar is the place closest to nature in the second game IMHO. Now, I'm no expert to DnD outside of these games and might be missing the decisive reason, why an elven druid would not make sense in BG.

I'd just like to know if seeing this at some point in the future is:
a) possible :-) b) likely :-D or if c) my hopes and dreams are crushed. :,-(
Thanks a bunch for giving me accesses to these great games, Beamdog!

Heindrich

I'm no D&D expert either, but I recall reading that it was due to 2nd edition lore reasons, much like why all druids are neutral, even though Jaheira is basically Good and Faldorn is evil. Perhaps @atcDave or @BelgarathMTH can clarify? I vaguely remember that it might have been one of you who told me that.

Also, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't it pretty easy to create an Elven druid with EEkeeper? Just create a druid and change his race or create an elf and change his class to Druid. I've done similar stuff before like Kensai/Druid multi-class, which is technically "illegal".

Ravenslight

The BG2 Tweak Pack mod has a component that removes racial restrictions for classes. I am happily playing an elven druid in BGI now, with the help of this excellent mod.

justfeelinathome

@Ravenslight Would you know if it is compatible with Mac OS X? Spread the love for nature!

I think Heindrichs suggestion is also valid, but I have to say I am no big fan of EEkeeper (basically just because I've never worked that part out). Still would be curious what the officials say about this.

Ravenslight

I just checked the readme, and it is.

atcDave

The original reason was just that Druidism was a human religion with human priests. Elves had their own religion with their own gods. Under 2E rules for creating specialty priests, there were elven clerics that would end up looking a lot like a druid; but with some uniquely elven features.
Given that IE doesn't really make use of specialty priests at all; adding elven druids sounds like a perfectly reasonable compromise.

justfeelinathome

And here you learn something new every day.

RAM021

Heindrich said:

I've done similar stuff before like Kensai/Druid multi-class, which is technically "illegal".

Engine limitations are the suck

atcDave said:

The original reason was just that Druidism was a human religion with human priests. Elves had their own religion with their own gods. Under 2E rules for creating specialty priests, there were elven clerics that would end up looking a lot like a druid; but with some uniquely elven features.

FR Elves can natively be Druids proper and many support multi-classing as well.

Skie

I got an half orc druid o.o
Near Infinity is your friend

Sertorius

RAM021 said:

FR Elves can natively be Druids proper and many support multi-classing as well.

In 3rd edition and later perhaps, not in 2nd edition. Player's Handbook is quite clear on that point, human and half-elf only, but yes, tons of multi-classes.

elminster

Sertorius said:

RAM021 said:

FR Elves can natively be Druids proper and many support multi-classing as well.

In 3rd edition and later perhaps, not in 2nd edition. Player's Handbook is quite clear on that point, human and half-elf only, but yes, tons of multi-classes.

All non-drow Elves (Gray, High, Valley, Wild, and Wood Elves) in 1st edition could become druids (so could halflings). Its also brought up again in the Complete Druids Handbook where its explained that in 2nd edition only Sylvan Elves (wood elves) can become a druid. That is presumably why Icewind Dale allows it. Though nothing is said on multi-class fighter/druids, so I assume that would not be allowed (and indeed they aren't in Icewind Dale).

Sertorius

Just to nitpick: the druid's handbook kinda contradicts itself on the elf druids... it says that in the 1st edition (and BG is in the 2nd mind you) could be druids, but in the specific description of classes doesn't mention elves under allowed races for any of the classes. Multi-class druids are half-elf only, stated quite clearly.

That being said, the particular combination of an elven druid, is one I don't really see a reason for it not being allowed, as it is reasonably easy to see how the two things would fit together.

atcDave

Core 2E rules do not allow Elven Druids. The Druid Handbook is a supplement, not core.

In the Players Handbook Druid is presented as an example of a Specialty Priest of a specific human religion. As such, it is the only specialty priest ever defined in the core rules. It is arguably reasonable for elves to follow the same religion, especially since it may be the only option within the Infinity Engine. But I've always assumed elves look at Druids with an "isn't that cute" sort of indulgence. I think the better fix is to design a specifically Elven sort of specialty priest that honors the Elven deities and mythos. Even if we end up saying it is functionally identical to Druid; I imagine an elf would pointedly call it something different.

AstroBryGuy

elminster said:

Sertorius said:

RAM021 said:

FR Elves can natively be Druids proper and many support multi-classing as well.

In 3rd edition and later perhaps, not in 2nd edition. Player's Handbook is quite clear on that point, human and half-elf only, but yes, tons of multi-classes.

All non-drow Elves (Gray, High, Valley, Wild, and Wood Elves) in 1st edition could become druids (so could halflings). Its also brought up again in the Complete Druids Handbook where its explained that in 2nd edition only Sylvan Elves (wood elves) can become a druid. That is presumably why Icewind Dale allows it. Though nothing is said on multi-class fighter/druids, so I assume that would not be allowed (and indeed they aren't in Icewind Dale).

Where did you get that about 1E? The CHARACTER RACE TABLE I.: CHARACTER CLASS LIMITATIONS in the PHB only shows humans and half-elves as allowed to be druids. Every other race is a "no".

elminster

AstroBryGuy said:

elminster said:

Sertorius said:

RAM021 said:

FR Elves can natively be Druids proper and many support multi-classing as well.

In 3rd edition and later perhaps, not in 2nd edition. Player's Handbook is quite clear on that point, human and half-elf only, but yes, tons of multi-classes.

All non-drow Elves (Gray, High, Valley, Wild, and Wood Elves) in 1st edition could become druids (so could halflings). Its also brought up again in the Complete Druids Handbook where its explained that in 2nd edition only Sylvan Elves (wood elves) can become a druid. That is presumably why Icewind Dale allows it. Though nothing is said on multi-class fighter/druids, so I assume that would not be allowed (and indeed they aren't in Icewind Dale).

Where did you get that about 1E? The CHARACTER RACE TABLE I.: CHARACTER CLASS LIMITATIONS in the PHB only shows humans and half-elves as allowed to be druids. Every other race is a "no".

Unearthed Arcana expanded on the list of available races that could be druids.

justfeelinathome

I see that the opinions on this matter are far from unanimous. Perhaps creating a pol would be interesting? (I would be the first to do so, yet I've never done that part before)

Possible options would perhaps include - beside elven druids, yes or no - also the new elven class solution, though I see that one would get a head start just for being "new".

AstroBryGuy

elminster said:

AstroBryGuy said:

elminster said:

Sertorius said:

RAM021 said:

FR Elves can natively be Druids proper and many support multi-classing as well.

In 3rd edition and later perhaps, not in 2nd edition. Player's Handbook is quite clear on that point, human and half-elf only, but yes, tons of multi-classes.

All non-drow Elves (Gray, High, Valley, Wild, and Wood Elves) in 1st edition could become druids (so could halflings). Its also brought up again in the Complete Druids Handbook where its explained that in 2nd edition only Sylvan Elves (wood elves) can become a druid. That is presumably why Icewind Dale allows it. Though nothing is said on multi-class fighter/druids, so I assume that would not be allowed (and indeed they aren't in Icewind Dale).

Where did you get that about 1E? The CHARACTER RACE TABLE I.: CHARACTER CLASS LIMITATIONS in the PHB only shows humans and half-elves as allowed to be druids. Every other race is a "no".

Unearthed Arcana expanded on the list of available races that could be druids.

I forgot about the changes in UA. Oops.

Odd turnabout from that book - in UA, Paladins were made a subclass of Cavaliers. Poor Cavs went from the base class to a paladin kit.

ZanathKariashi

Not necessarily. It's more that the majority of paladins couldn't live up to the higher expectations of the Cavalier and the definition of what was a paladin changed to fit the majority, while the cream of crop, became Cavaliers.

justfeelinathome

Well, here I was hoping that after nearly three months of silence there would be some sort of statement from an official side to my initial request.

AstroBryGuy

justtravelinthrough said:

Well, here I was hoping that after nearly three months of silence there would be some sort of statement from an official side to my initial request.

Well, I think they are busy with Adventure Y at the moment. And all you need to do is install the "Remove Racial Restrictions for Single Classes" component from BG2 Tweaks and you can have elven druids.

http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/

Edvin

Hmm, "Druids of Tall Trees" should be disbanded. xD
All other racial restrictions make sense, but this is just stupid.

AstroBryGuy

ZanathKariashi said:

Not necessarily. It's more that the majority of paladins couldn't live up to the higher expectations of the Cavalier and the definition of what was a paladin changed to fit the majority, while the cream of crop, became Cavaliers.

But in UA, Cavaliers had no divine powers. They were knights. As a Cavalier sub-class, Paladins became "holy knights" instead of "holy warriors".

Inverting it is a significant change for the Cavalier, from a non-divine knight errant to a select member of a divine warrior order.

Musigny

justtravelinthrough said:

Well, here I was hoping that after nearly three months of silence there would be some sort of statement from an official side to my initial request.

Looking at something slightly different in @semiticgod 's mod: a custom druid kit to enable for all races, I coded a few lines which seem to unlock the druid restriction.

I reuse them here. At you own risk as I do not know whether Beamdog externalized all of the pertaining files/variables.

LadyRhian

The only thing I have to say about Druids in 1e and 2e is that it's true. Druids embody a very human attitude towards nature- that it must be protected and cared for. Other races, elves included, don't need to protect nature from their own, as elven attitudes towards the natural world are different from human ones as, say, chalk and cheese.

The only reason half-elven druids were allowed is because these half-elves were raised in human society and thus absorbed human attitudes about nature. That, in essence, is why elves don't have druids.

Edvin

LadyRhian said:

Druids embody a very human attitude towards nature- that it must be protected and cared for. Other races, elves included, don't need to protect nature from their own, as elven attitudes towards the natural world are different from human ones as, say, chalk and cheese.

Theory is not the same as practice. Each individual has a slightly different approach to nature.
"Druid" is truly human term, but was taken from the Elves. The elves had their "Druids" much earlier than other races, but they not call them druids. Have Drow a special name for those who can form a ball of darkness? Elves are much closer to nature than other races, making it easier for them to use the power of nature.

LadyRhian said:

The only reason half-elven druids were allowed is because these half-elves were raised in human society and thus absorbed human attitudes about nature. That, in essence, is why elves don't have druids.

The Druids of the Tall Trees
Membership 28; Isolated (17 humans, 6 elves, 4 half-elves, 1 treant).
http://www.realmshelps.net/faerun/organizations/talltreedruids.shtml

BTW
Jaheira was raised by a community of druids.
Given what is known about her family, it is quite likely that one of their parents was a druid.
A lot of things suggests that it was her Elvish mother.

ZanathKariashi

in order.

1. Elves cannot be druids at all under 2nd edition rules because it is an EXCLUSIVELY human organization (Half-elves are actually barred from being anything more then an initiate rank (as are any druids that dual class), because all positions of office, tied to levels 12 through 15, are human exclusive).

Elves also have no reason to be druids as their clerics already serve that purpose in their society (unlike Human gods, basically ALL good elven deities are nature deities and are unified under one rule, so that element is already baked into the Cleric class of an elven character).

The human pantheon of nature deities on the other hand, is small and fractured by in-fighting, so the druids act as a kind of Middle-man organization of the Nature gods, so that they can cooperate with each other when it's needed for nature and balance, but also maintain their own seperate priesthoods of clerics which are often against each other as much as they cooperate.

2. that is from 3rd edition, and has no bearing on this discussion since all the class restrictions were removed without any justification, as if they'd never existed to begin with.

3. Jaheria's family were Tethyrian loyalist nobles that had nothing to do with druids who were slaughtered when the coup against the rightful monarch's family began, and her mother escaped, while badly wounded with Jaheria, and was found by one of the druids of a local circle, where she begged them to protect her daughter before succumbing to her wounds. That's the only reason Jaheria is a druid.

AstroBryGuy

ZanathKariashi said:

in order.

1. Elves cannot be druids at all under 2nd edition rules because it is an EXCLUSIVELY human organization (Half-elves are actually barred from being anything more then an initiate rank (as are any druids that dual class), because all positions of office, tied to levels 12 through 15, are human exclusive).

Elves also have no reason to be druids as their clerics already serve that purpose in their society (unlike Human gods, basically ALL good elven deities are nature deities and are unified under one rule, so that element is already baked into the Cleric class of an elven character).

The human pantheon of nature deities on the other hand, is small and fractured by in-fighting, so the druids act as a kind of Middle-man organization of the Nature gods, so that they can cooperate with each other when it's needed for nature and balance, but also maintain their own seperate priesthoods of clerics which are often against each other as much as they cooperate.

As Elminster pointed out above, the 2nd Edition Complete Druid Handbook includes rules for non-human/half-elf druids under the Druidic Branches section ("at the DM's option" of course - but that goes for any rule in PnP ), including sylvan elves and halflings (and other non-traditional PC races like dryads and lizard men).

While it is true that the "base" AD&D rules (PHB, DMG) don't allow elven druids, since the Complete Druid Handbook is the also sourcebook for the Druid kits, it's not unreasonable to request implementing this rule too.

LadyRhian

@Edvin The "other races" include Halflings, and (Sylvan) Elves. The problem being that in FR Sylvan Elves seem to only exist on Evermeet and possibly The High Forest (and the elves here are reclusive and secretive, according to the books). There are two main kinds of Elves in the Forgotten Realms: Moon Elves and Sun Elves. Sun Elves are "Gray Elves" according to 1e AD&D, while Moon Elves are High Elves. Sylvan elves are not exactly populous in Faerun.

Edvin

LadyRhian said:

There are two main kinds of Elves in the Forgotten Realms: Moon Elves and Sun Elves. Sun Elves are "Gray Elves" according to 1e AD&D, while Moon Elves are High Elves. Sylvan elves are not exactly populous in Faerun.

Ehm, are you not forgetting Drow?

billbisco

This mod is compatible with BGEE and has an option that will remove racial restrictions from classes:

http://www.gibberlings3.net/bg2tweaks/

The Devs have already externalized the ability to alter racial restrictions and have chosen to allow mods like the above to do it. If they wanted to allow Elven Druids without mods, they would have done so already, I believe.

LadyRhian

Edvin said:

LadyRhian said:

There are two main kinds of Elves in the Forgotten Realms: Moon Elves and Sun Elves. Sun Elves are "Gray Elves" according to 1e AD&D, while Moon Elves are High Elves. Sylvan elves are not exactly populous in Faerun.

Ehm, are you not forgetting Drow?

Drow, at least in 2e, are also vanishingly rare on the surface. There are the half-Drow, Crinti, in the far south, and Drizzt in the far north. Drow are more numerous *under* the Forgotten Realms, in the Underdark. I count them as a minor race for this reason, same as Sylvan Elves and Lythari (and Star Elves, but they only came in in 3e).

Lythari are a sub-race of elves affected with Lycanthropy (of a sort) that allows them a wolf form along with an elven one. There are also sea elves and Avariel, also minor races of Elves.