Not to perform thread necromancy here, but as someone recently pointed out on reddit, it looks like this thread (or some idea a lot like it) could be the link between the original games and Baldur's Gate III.
Not to say that there isn't some room, but the world map size in ToB is definitely a constraint on adding new content.
i disagree, just for fun i created an alternative maps adding 4 areas, using existing area icons, that are less packed together then some of the existing areas.
I like the idea of ToB, but it desperately needs mega-modding to make it less linear..................
I'm personally in favor of thinking of a way to make ToB way less linear, and with different out comes, which can have some good and some bad even, as in less than optimal wins that are less satisfying.
i certainly agree about how linear is ToB, after all the freedom the player was used in SoA, where not only he has complete choice on which secondary quests to do and when to do them (chap 2 or after the asylum), but he can even, from chap 2 on, go to WK (if he dares), having access to a mega quest that from its creation has been designed for ToB party levels, but is available to the SoA players, originally if they had the ToB expansion.
under spoiler (as it reveals the flow of ToB, and some new players can maybe like to discover it by themselves) i put an other map where the blue arrows show the linear paths, that you have no chance but follow in exact order, and in red the paths where the player has a choice on what to do first.
i think that it is self explanatory enough on how ToB is linear, so potentially boring.
The existence of WK, if in the original game added quite a bit of content and that could somehow balance the linearity of ToB, in EE, where ToB and WK are already delivered with SoA in the same package, does not change anything about the main plot of ToB being so linear and the optional quests in it being very small and less interesting compared to the SoA ones.
we can certainly not compare saving malla's soul, that is probably the only sub quest that has at least a challenging battle, with the quests of the animals attacking trademeet or the one given by a certain noble man in the CC.
and the new EE quests are npc related, to do them you must have specific EE npcs in the party, while in SoA almost all the npc related important quests could be done even without having those npcs, you don't need nalia to do the d'arnise keep, cernd to do the druid's grove or mazzy to do the umar hills.
Quests like the one if you have jan or anomen in the party are very little content compared to the large amount of optional content of SoA.
so the new EE npc quests are new content "on condition".
i can not play half of them only for the fact that EE implemented also some npcs of a level of evilness that was never seen in the original, and i never play evil charnames. But even those that don't have problems with alignment must have specific npcs in the party to play the new EE content, every time they don't that content is lost.
still i think that a mega mod that changes the way the ToB main plot is implemented, making it less linear, ie allowing the player chose in which order to deal with the 5 right at the beginning, and/or adds new optional quests, that we can access without being tied to have specific npcs in the party, is possible, but is something that i don't see happening in the future.
it is a too big goal for every single modder, but some modders working together could do it.
but nowadays it seems to me that the main focus of the modders is about adding new npcs or changing the game mechanics, with mega mods like scs or mods that change the items and spells, add new kits and so on.
In the past much more modders was interested in creating new content, most of the quest mods, some of them imho with very good quality, was created in the pre EE age and then ported to EE.
I would like to have a less linear ToB, with some huge optional quests that every party can do, but i don't see it coming.
EDIT: i created an other map that shows how a less linear and boring ToB could be.
the arrows of different color show from where it could be possible to start to deal with 4 of the five, the one in saradush obviously has to be dealt with before dealing with the giant one, but maybe non necessarily after the other 3, as if charname has a way out of the town under siege why not?
and WK and the optional areas with new optional quests could be available at every moment the party is not in saradush, but the start of those quest, the encounter and dialogue that trigger them, could happen there, or maybe some of them could be available only after the party deals with a certain amount of 5, to spawn the persons that trigger them in whatever area not marked as dungeon is not a problem.
Inspired by this thread (and current circumstances rendering me homebound), I decided to play through BG2 to see if I too could connect any dots. It has been great realizing how much background stuff I missed when I first played through this in my younger days and reminded me why I love this game so. Just to be clear, I played an unmodded version of BG2EE. I make no claims to have found anything new, but I would like to share the notes I took during my playthrough anyway. I will surely have missed out on stuff as well, seeing how huge this game is. This will be a long one. Anyway, here goes.
Starting off, I never realized how big of a power factor the slavers actually are. Their main base in the Slums is a small fortress, and they clearly have influential members of the city guard on their payroll. I also knew of their connection to Isaea Roneall, but what I had missed was how there is a clear reference to the Guarded Compound in the Temple District among the documents you procure to secure Nalias freedom. And when visiting the compound you are forced to duel with the powerful mage Sion and his cohorts who all pose a much bigger threat than any slavers you have encountered thus far.
Nothing, however, indicates that Sion is the slavers’ head honcho. Instead, he seems more like a very high-ranking member of the organization, and could very well be a subordinate of someone even more powerful. Of course, nothing else comes from this in the main game, but I found an old post on Sorcerer’s net (https://sorcerers.net/community/threads/slavers-from-guarded-compound-spoiler.7855/) by the user CamDawg (who I have to assume is Cameron Tofer) who mentions that Unfinished Business would explore the ties between the slavers and the Twisted Rune. So we could have a scenario where the slavery business in Amn was controlled by a secret organization of liches. Of course, another post in the thread mentions that Shalangar thanks you for killing someone in the compound so maybe not (although that did not happen in my playthrough despite doing TR afterwards).
Either way, we might have our answer as to who is behind the attack on De’Arnise’s keep. It is clear that the ones benefiting the most from the attack are the Roenalls. They move in as soon as the quest is over (unless you rolled a fighter, which I did not do this playthrough), and Isaea tries to move mountains to secure both the land and Nalia to further his political ambitions. Through his connection to the slavers, there is little doubt that he possesses the means to orchestrate the attack. TorGal mentions he and his troops were paid in “meat and land”, something Isaea definitely could arrange. Of course, there is the issue about the “stronger” TorGal refers to. According to the troll leader, the “stronger” is “worthy” and speaks with “fancy words”. Again, a nobleman of Roenall’s standing would fit this description. The title of “stronger” could refer to someone being physically powerful or someone with arcane power, but it might just as well apply to someone powerful not because of his abilities, but of those under his command. Also worth mentioning is the presence of both trolls and yuan-ti in the slaver base in the slums, an organization Isaea is strongly connected to.
The only real mystery is the Umber Hulks, but it is not impossible that such beasts could be procured with enough money or through the slaver connection. The charmed guard Glacius’ mention of how “the sorcery of his new master has shown him the way” could be considered a hint toward some other suspect, but when you break the spell, all he ever talks about is TorGal. You would think he would say something if he did not suspect the trolls were behind the attack. Seeing how there is a yuan-ti mage on the same floor, it is not unlikely this is who charmed him in the first place.
In the absence of any other proof, I am definitely leaning towards Isaea as the one behind the attack. Boring, huh? Well, he has the means, the motive, as well as ample opportunity. Whether or not TR is actually behind it all matters little, but for speculation’s sake, it is fun to imagine a scenario where the attack was just a move to increase the power of one of their controlled noble families. That or daddy De’Arnise foiled one of their plans in his adventure days and had it coming.
As for the Hidden, there is not a whole lot about them in the game. The Jan questline shows that they have infiltrated the highest levels of Amn aristocracy (which would certainly have put them at odds with TR), and the note in their lair makes it clear that they are plotting to take over something, though the scope of their plan is unclear. Their base is also pretty small, suggesting they are either stretched thin or simply very few in numbers still. The fact that Tazok keeps a key to their lair is interesting since it might imply that they are his actual new master, but I do not see what he would bring to them. He was never portrayed to be anything more than muscle and it is much more likely that simply serves Firkraag, who probably recruited him with promises of revenge against Gorion’s Ward. I suppose Tazok could be a Hidden spy, but subterfuge does not seem like his strong suit.
This still leaves the key, and unfortunately, I found nothing that ties it to anything. My best guess is either the previously mentioned pact between Tiamat and Gith, or it could simply be that Firkraag learned of the Hidden (he seems to be pretty well-connected to the nobility in Amn, after all) and disapproved of their presence. I do not think he is in league with them himself. Seeing how he makes sure to recruit the Ward in person, he strikes me as someone who would not send a brute like Tazok to Athkatla on his behalf. No, if he and the Hidden were in cahoots, I expect him to carry the key close to himself. The fact that Firkraag likely is aware of the illithid intrusion, leads me to believe that TR probably are as well given their influence. This suggests the Hidden are less subtle than their name would imply.
Speaking of hidden, a certain talking zweihander can be found not too far away from where you meet the mind flayer during the Jan questline. The actual significance of Lilarcor’s presence in the sewers is unclear but it is worth noting that wielding it grants you immunity to charm and confusion, abilities very much a staple in the illithid repertoire. Also, Quallo, the old man helping you get the blade is clearly mind-controlled. Now, I can think of little reason why the mind flayers themselves would hide a weapon useful against them, only to make sure that it would still be available to a worthy adventurer. I suppose it could serve to lure adventurers to them so that they might feed.
It is, however, just as likely it was placed there either by someone completely unconnected to the Hidden whatsoever or by one of their enemies. On the other hand, I also do not think it makes much sense for any rivalling group to hide the sword somewhere where the flayers might easily find it. While I personally like the idea that TR would put it there as a way of alerting travellers to the illithid’s presence, and thus maybe wipe them out, there is nothing to suggest that is the case. Instead, it must probably be treated as unrelated to the entire Hidden plot for now, even though it seems there is something here.
As for the Githyanki presence during the game, I saw little to suggest they have much to do with either TR or the Hidden. The Seekers are obviously tied to the flayers, but every other appearance of Githyanki is reasonably explained: The ones in the Planar Prison are not in Athkatla and have no obvious connection to the Prime whatsoever, those who are hunting Saemon just want their blade back, and the few in the Underdark are merely stopping by while their ship is repaired. It could be that these are all Seekers as well, but there is nothing in the game that points to it. On the same note, who gave Kalah his power seems unrelated as well. The Unfinished Business mod makes it clear that it was a chaos-hungry Rakshasa, which seems pretty par for the course.
Anyway, that is pretty much what I could gather. Most of this has already been discussed in this thread in one way or another, but I figured I would share anyway. My main takeaway from this is that the Hidden seems like a much smaller threat than I first thought (although illithid are never a “small” threat by any means). I also think it is pretty interesting how the note you find pretty much spells out that you ruined their entire operations in one fell swoop when stumbling upon their lair, which further suggests to me that their influence is not yet particularly powerful. It will certainly be very interesting to see if the flayers in BG3 are in any way connected the Hidden!
So reddit user HarbsNarbs1, inspired by this thread, has started a video series on the Hidden conspiracy and points out some interesting things that can be accessed via the console and EEKeeper. This may be old news to some of you, but I had no idea that one of the baddies in the Guarded Compound is actually a mind flayer for instance. With this in mind, the Hidden seem to be the driving force of the slave trade in Athkatla, and likely had a part in the assault on D'Arnise's Keep as well.
Whenever I get reminded of this thread it puts a mad smile on my face. I haven't had a proper look at BG3 yet, but from what I've seen I can't help but be convinced someone at Larian must have come here for inspiration.
Comments
You could travel to a location that is not on this map. Or you could make a new world map and have the party travel there.
You could also expand the existing ToB map and rework it.
i disagree, just for fun i created an alternative maps adding 4 areas, using existing area icons, that are less packed together then some of the existing areas.
i certainly agree about how linear is ToB, after all the freedom the player was used in SoA, where not only he has complete choice on which secondary quests to do and when to do them (chap 2 or after the asylum), but he can even, from chap 2 on, go to WK (if he dares), having access to a mega quest that from its creation has been designed for ToB party levels, but is available to the SoA players, originally if they had the ToB expansion.
under spoiler (as it reveals the flow of ToB, and some new players can maybe like to discover it by themselves) i put an other map where the blue arrows show the linear paths, that you have no chance but follow in exact order, and in red the paths where the player has a choice on what to do first.
The existence of WK, if in the original game added quite a bit of content and that could somehow balance the linearity of ToB, in EE, where ToB and WK are already delivered with SoA in the same package, does not change anything about the main plot of ToB being so linear and the optional quests in it being very small and less interesting compared to the SoA ones.
we can certainly not compare saving malla's soul, that is probably the only sub quest that has at least a challenging battle, with the quests of the animals attacking trademeet or the one given by a certain noble man in the CC.
and the new EE quests are npc related, to do them you must have specific EE npcs in the party, while in SoA almost all the npc related important quests could be done even without having those npcs, you don't need nalia to do the d'arnise keep, cernd to do the druid's grove or mazzy to do the umar hills.
Quests like the one if you have jan or anomen in the party are very little content compared to the large amount of optional content of SoA.
so the new EE npc quests are new content "on condition".
i can not play half of them only for the fact that EE implemented also some npcs of a level of evilness that was never seen in the original, and i never play evil charnames. But even those that don't have problems with alignment must have specific npcs in the party to play the new EE content, every time they don't that content is lost.
still i think that a mega mod that changes the way the ToB main plot is implemented, making it less linear, ie allowing the player chose in which order to deal with the 5 right at the beginning, and/or adds new optional quests, that we can access without being tied to have specific npcs in the party, is possible, but is something that i don't see happening in the future.
it is a too big goal for every single modder, but some modders working together could do it.
but nowadays it seems to me that the main focus of the modders is about adding new npcs or changing the game mechanics, with mega mods like scs or mods that change the items and spells, add new kits and so on.
In the past much more modders was interested in creating new content, most of the quest mods, some of them imho with very good quality, was created in the pre EE age and then ported to EE.
I would like to have a less linear ToB, with some huge optional quests that every party can do, but i don't see it coming.
EDIT: i created an other map that shows how a less linear and boring ToB could be.
the arrows of different color show from where it could be possible to start to deal with 4 of the five, the one in saradush obviously has to be dealt with before dealing with the giant one, but maybe non necessarily after the other 3, as if charname has a way out of the town under siege why not?
and WK and the optional areas with new optional quests could be available at every moment the party is not in saradush, but the start of those quest, the encounter and dialogue that trigger them, could happen there, or maybe some of them could be available only after the party deals with a certain amount of 5, to spawn the persons that trigger them in whatever area not marked as dungeon is not a problem.
Inspired by this thread (and current circumstances rendering me homebound), I decided to play through BG2 to see if I too could connect any dots. It has been great realizing how much background stuff I missed when I first played through this in my younger days and reminded me why I love this game so. Just to be clear, I played an unmodded version of BG2EE. I make no claims to have found anything new, but I would like to share the notes I took during my playthrough anyway. I will surely have missed out on stuff as well, seeing how huge this game is. This will be a long one. Anyway, here goes.
Starting off, I never realized how big of a power factor the slavers actually are. Their main base in the Slums is a small fortress, and they clearly have influential members of the city guard on their payroll. I also knew of their connection to Isaea Roneall, but what I had missed was how there is a clear reference to the Guarded Compound in the Temple District among the documents you procure to secure Nalias freedom. And when visiting the compound you are forced to duel with the powerful mage Sion and his cohorts who all pose a much bigger threat than any slavers you have encountered thus far.
Nothing, however, indicates that Sion is the slavers’ head honcho. Instead, he seems more like a very high-ranking member of the organization, and could very well be a subordinate of someone even more powerful. Of course, nothing else comes from this in the main game, but I found an old post on Sorcerer’s net (https://sorcerers.net/community/threads/slavers-from-guarded-compound-spoiler.7855/) by the user CamDawg (who I have to assume is Cameron Tofer) who mentions that Unfinished Business would explore the ties between the slavers and the Twisted Rune. So we could have a scenario where the slavery business in Amn was controlled by a secret organization of liches. Of course, another post in the thread mentions that Shalangar thanks you for killing someone in the compound so maybe not (although that did not happen in my playthrough despite doing TR afterwards).
Either way, we might have our answer as to who is behind the attack on De’Arnise’s keep. It is clear that the ones benefiting the most from the attack are the Roenalls. They move in as soon as the quest is over (unless you rolled a fighter, which I did not do this playthrough), and Isaea tries to move mountains to secure both the land and Nalia to further his political ambitions. Through his connection to the slavers, there is little doubt that he possesses the means to orchestrate the attack. TorGal mentions he and his troops were paid in “meat and land”, something Isaea definitely could arrange. Of course, there is the issue about the “stronger” TorGal refers to. According to the troll leader, the “stronger” is “worthy” and speaks with “fancy words”. Again, a nobleman of Roenall’s standing would fit this description. The title of “stronger” could refer to someone being physically powerful or someone with arcane power, but it might just as well apply to someone powerful not because of his abilities, but of those under his command. Also worth mentioning is the presence of both trolls and yuan-ti in the slaver base in the slums, an organization Isaea is strongly connected to.
The only real mystery is the Umber Hulks, but it is not impossible that such beasts could be procured with enough money or through the slaver connection. The charmed guard Glacius’ mention of how “the sorcery of his new master has shown him the way” could be considered a hint toward some other suspect, but when you break the spell, all he ever talks about is TorGal. You would think he would say something if he did not suspect the trolls were behind the attack. Seeing how there is a yuan-ti mage on the same floor, it is not unlikely this is who charmed him in the first place.
In the absence of any other proof, I am definitely leaning towards Isaea as the one behind the attack. Boring, huh? Well, he has the means, the motive, as well as ample opportunity. Whether or not TR is actually behind it all matters little, but for speculation’s sake, it is fun to imagine a scenario where the attack was just a move to increase the power of one of their controlled noble families. That or daddy De’Arnise foiled one of their plans in his adventure days and had it coming.
As for the Hidden, there is not a whole lot about them in the game. The Jan questline shows that they have infiltrated the highest levels of Amn aristocracy (which would certainly have put them at odds with TR), and the note in their lair makes it clear that they are plotting to take over something, though the scope of their plan is unclear. Their base is also pretty small, suggesting they are either stretched thin or simply very few in numbers still. The fact that Tazok keeps a key to their lair is interesting since it might imply that they are his actual new master, but I do not see what he would bring to them. He was never portrayed to be anything more than muscle and it is much more likely that simply serves Firkraag, who probably recruited him with promises of revenge against Gorion’s Ward. I suppose Tazok could be a Hidden spy, but subterfuge does not seem like his strong suit.
This still leaves the key, and unfortunately, I found nothing that ties it to anything. My best guess is either the previously mentioned pact between Tiamat and Gith, or it could simply be that Firkraag learned of the Hidden (he seems to be pretty well-connected to the nobility in Amn, after all) and disapproved of their presence. I do not think he is in league with them himself. Seeing how he makes sure to recruit the Ward in person, he strikes me as someone who would not send a brute like Tazok to Athkatla on his behalf. No, if he and the Hidden were in cahoots, I expect him to carry the key close to himself. The fact that Firkraag likely is aware of the illithid intrusion, leads me to believe that TR probably are as well given their influence. This suggests the Hidden are less subtle than their name would imply.
Speaking of hidden, a certain talking zweihander can be found not too far away from where you meet the mind flayer during the Jan questline. The actual significance of Lilarcor’s presence in the sewers is unclear but it is worth noting that wielding it grants you immunity to charm and confusion, abilities very much a staple in the illithid repertoire. Also, Quallo, the old man helping you get the blade is clearly mind-controlled. Now, I can think of little reason why the mind flayers themselves would hide a weapon useful against them, only to make sure that it would still be available to a worthy adventurer. I suppose it could serve to lure adventurers to them so that they might feed.
It is, however, just as likely it was placed there either by someone completely unconnected to the Hidden whatsoever or by one of their enemies. On the other hand, I also do not think it makes much sense for any rivalling group to hide the sword somewhere where the flayers might easily find it. While I personally like the idea that TR would put it there as a way of alerting travellers to the illithid’s presence, and thus maybe wipe them out, there is nothing to suggest that is the case. Instead, it must probably be treated as unrelated to the entire Hidden plot for now, even though it seems there is something here.
As for the Githyanki presence during the game, I saw little to suggest they have much to do with either TR or the Hidden. The Seekers are obviously tied to the flayers, but every other appearance of Githyanki is reasonably explained: The ones in the Planar Prison are not in Athkatla and have no obvious connection to the Prime whatsoever, those who are hunting Saemon just want their blade back, and the few in the Underdark are merely stopping by while their ship is repaired. It could be that these are all Seekers as well, but there is nothing in the game that points to it. On the same note, who gave Kalah his power seems unrelated as well. The Unfinished Business mod makes it clear that it was a chaos-hungry Rakshasa, which seems pretty par for the course.
Anyway, that is pretty much what I could gather. Most of this has already been discussed in this thread in one way or another, but I figured I would share anyway. My main takeaway from this is that the Hidden seems like a much smaller threat than I first thought (although illithid are never a “small” threat by any means). I also think it is pretty interesting how the note you find pretty much spells out that you ruined their entire operations in one fell swoop when stumbling upon their lair, which further suggests to me that their influence is not yet particularly powerful. It will certainly be very interesting to see if the flayers in BG3 are in any way connected the Hidden!
"Never assume that there is only one diabolical plot going on at any given time. It's usually twenty or thirty."
Definitely some interesting stuff, check it out: https://www.reddit.com/r/baldursgate/comments/gnct5v/hidden_conspiracy_baldurs_gate_3_links_and/