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Best weapon for backstab

Which weapon in BG2EE is the best for the thief's backstab?

Dagger of the star +5 seems like a good choice because of the chance to get a second backstab though the small damage is a drawback.

I was considering the staff of the ram +6 though I am not sure if the +12 crushing and +1d4 piercing are multiplied or added.

Blackraven
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Comments

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    The Staff of the Ram's +12 damage is part of the base damage so it is multiplied. The 1d4 piercing is not a part of the base damage so it is not.

    As for the best backstab... It depends on how you define "best". I believe Staff of the Ram does the most damage for a backstab, but there are other things that could make for interesting options.

    JuliusBorisovBlackravenStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,078
    edited March 2015
    The Iron Golem fists can be used to backstab as well. They do 4d10 damage, or 22 on average, compared to Ram's 1d6+12, or 15.5 on average (18.5 with maxed proficiencies). It also comes with 24 STR for an extra 12 damage, though STR bonuses to damage don't get multiplied.

    Also, forging the upgraded Ram costs you Roranach's Horn, one of the best helms in the game. And the non-upgraded Ram is deep in Watcher's Keep, so the Iron Golem form also comes earlier.

    But the Staff of Striking, available for sale I believe in Trademeet and the Temple of Lathander or Helm in Athkatla, is available earlier still, and does 12.5 damage on average, which is sufficient for most occasions. But each hit with the thing costs you a charge, and you have to sell it and buy it back to recharge it.

    Or, you can add a backstab multiplier to a monk, and backstab with your bare hands!

    It's funny... all the best backstabbing weapons are blunt weapons.

    JuliusBorisovBlackravenStummvonBordwehr
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    Iron golem is for thief/mages (or those who have UAI and like 100 spare copies of a rare level 9 scroll, you know, like no one does.)

    Roranach's horn is tempting to keep... but I think it is mainly so good due to the lack of quality helmets in the game. Defense is all well and good, but offense is far more awesome (this is from a "whats cool" perspective and not a powergaming perspective).

    Backstabbing monks? As if monks weren't already experts at channeling the powers of ki dairy...

    Honestly though, your backstab is pretty much an instakill no matter who you use it on (provided you hit and have a decent strength). It usually doesn't matter what you use...

    Blunt weapons... Perhaps backstabbing with a blunt should be called a backwhack... Backslash for a slashing weapon?

  • pixie359pixie359 Member Posts: 251
    I'm not sure backstabbing should be allowed in golem form - it just doesn't seem very sneaky.

    Can you backstab in the big metal unit?

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Isn't the BMU weapon ranged? Can't remember, I only used it once like a decade ago.

    As for BS, the above posts have it pretty much down. Staff of the Ram is the best proper weapon, Iron Golem fists the best weapon-like attack (albeit restricted to M/T combos).

    In general, what matters most for BS damage is the average static damage (i.e. disregarding damage procs). Any weapon with a high +X damage modifier will usually do, the base weapon damage is actually not that big a deal in most cases (the difference between 1d6 from a short sword and 1d10 from a katana is a mere 2 average damage).

    Another thing to consider is critical strike. Critical backstabs deal HUGE amounts of damage, and with the right weapon proficiency you can double your critical strike chance (from 5% to 10%); depending on your mods etc. there may also be items that increase critical strike chance. Note that several types of enemies are immune to critical strikes, but rolling a critical against these enemies will at least result in an automatic hit (with regular damage) so it's not entirely wasted.

    Outside of the new Nightmare Mode, you will probably one-shot most enemies with just about any decent BS weapon; it really doesn't have to be the Staff of the Ram to chunk things left and right. Besides, most of the prime targets you'd want to BS tend to be mages or casters in general, which usually have less HP and are thus fairly easily one-shotted even with weaker BS weapons.

    Note: you can severely cheese BS using Mislead, which essentially turns ALL your attacks into backstabs; I personally consider this a bug and don't use it, but if you have no qualms about it, it is perhaps THE most damaging strategy in the game and it works well with the whole Iron Golem thing since you'll want to be a mage anyway for the Mislead (e.g. Assassin->Mage dual?).

  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    The assassin -> mage sounded an interesting proposition, until I did the math :)

    Assuming I want the x7 backstab, I need to hit level 21 before dualing, which takes just over 2.4M xp, not unreasonable.

    Then I need to hit level 22 as a mage, which will take another 4.5Mxp, for a total xp required hovering close to 7Mxp - this will not be seen (in my usual party-of-six) until VERY late ToB, if at all. Are any enemies still susceptible to backstab at that point?

    So this might work for a solo or small party game, but those aren't fun for me.
    Alternatively, starting a new Assassin directly at the start of ToB will garnish you 2.5Mxp, so you will be level 21. You could immediately dual, and export the PC back into an earlier game! You would earn no xp playing BG1, already long past the xp cap (although the import works), but would get to experience the whole journey this way, and get to utilize the tomes. Alternatively, play as assassin through the first game, then import into ToB for the xp boost before dualing and exporting back to Chateau Irenicus, for a fair shot at raising the necessary 4.5M xp to reclaim the assassin levels. Still a big ask, but maybe possible around the time of the hell trials if you do ALL content, plus a few levels of Watcher's keep, as the random encounters will maxed and earning more xp throughout the game.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,078
    Mislead backstabbing would make sense if your target was focusing on the misled image. You could say you get to backstab every hit (or every other hit, for balance) because your illusion spell is not only making you invisible, but also helping to distract your target and offer opportunities for a backstab.

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    Staff of the Ram!

    You aren't a true BG rogue unless you stab people in the back with very large blunt objects. Just like Artemis Entreri I say!

    sarevok57
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161

    The assassin -> mage sounded an interesting proposition, until I did the math :)

    Assuming I want the x7 backstab, I need to hit level 21 before dualing, which takes just over 2.4M xp, not unreasonable.

    I was actually thinking more of Poison Weapon, which to me seems the most useful ability of all the BS-able thief kits. I wouldn't dual at that high level, it's just that unkitted thief, Shadow Dancer, or Bounty Hunter don't seem that appealing, so all that's left for a Thief->Mage dual is Assassin, really.

  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,658

    The assassin -> mage sounded an interesting proposition, until I did the math :)

    Assuming I want the x7 backstab, I need to hit level 21 before dualing, which takes just over 2.4M xp, not unreasonable.

    I was actually thinking more of Poison Weapon, which to me seems the most useful ability of all the BS-able thief kits. I wouldn't dual at that high level, it's just that unkitted thief, Shadow Dancer, or Bounty Hunter don't seem that appealing, so all that's left for a Thief->Mage dual is Assassin, really.
    Or Swashbuckler which is a nice kit if you're not worried about backstabbing.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    Best backstab weapon is certainly Black Blade of Disaster but it requires a M/T and will have pretty bad Thac0 if you plan to dual early. Even if perma +4 to hit due to invisibility is a lot, it is still quite hard to hit some enemies.
    However the damage output is certainly nice: dual wield BBoD/Kundane (or Belm) and use improved haste for 4 mainhand attack per round for about 100 damage per attack.
    However I do wonder whether it is more interesting in the end to go specialist mage and dual at some point, which would allow you to get some thief HLA, namely UAI and time traps. The former allows you to have one extra APR with gauntlet of extraordinary specialization, an extra 1 Thac0 if needed with helm of the balduran, while the latter would be all but devastating

    Tressetgorgonzola
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    CaptRory said:

    Or Swashbuckler which is a nice kit if you're not worried about backstabbing.

    Well yes, I omitted that for obvious reasons since this thread is, after all, about backstabbing :P

    @Arunsun Yes, good that you mention BBoD! Totally forgot about that one. It's likely the best weapon for Mislead abuse, as that is essentially the only way to make use of increased APR for BS. Per-hit it's slightly worse than the Staff of the Ram (afaik anyway, the +5 quality is not added as a static damage modifier to BBoD, right?).

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,740
    edited March 2015

    (afaik anyway, the +5 quality is not added as a static damage modifier to BBoD, right?).

    @Lord_Tansheron Yes it is actually. The sword acts as a +5 in that it gives a +5 to thac0 and +5 to Damage. The only way it is not a +5 is in terms of what it can hit... In which case it is a +6!

    StummvonBordwehr
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Well, that is interesting! Even more points for Black Beauty.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,078
    BBoD: 17 base damage, +5 to hit, +5(?) to hit from 22 STR, +3 from grandmastery

    Iron Golem: 22 base damage, +0 to hit, +6 to hit from 24 STR

    Both can be combined with speed weapons, but BBoD benefits from fighter levels and therefore has better APR for a Fighter/Thief or FMT. It also has far better THAC0 than the Iron Golem form... about 7 better, and a Mage/Thief can really benefit from that. THAC0 is more important for non-fighter backstabbers than damage.

    The Iron Golem attack is probably best suited for Cleric/Thieves with UAI choosing between a Shapechange or BBoD scroll. A Cleric/Thief does not gain APR from grandmastery, and it can use Righteous Magic for 40 base backstab damage. But that Shapechange scroll is usually better off being scribed by a mage. Unless you use the Shapechange trick to give a character permanent Shapechange abilities.

  • HempzHempz Member Posts: 15
    The topic starter asked about BG2, but I'd like to talk about the first game.
    Certainly the most damaging backstab weapon in BG1 is the Staff of Striking. However it takes quite long to get it. Even if you play solo you need to lvl up high enough to be able to reach the 4th underground level of DT. So a BS dedicated thief needs an alternative. And the best of them is... Staff Spear, gained from Kirinhale on the 3rd floor of DT. Even with a lvl 1 thief you can sneak there and steal the staff with help of potions bought from HH or the fence near DT.
    Staff Spear's base damage is unreasonable 1d8+1. Being of +2 enchantment it deals 1d8+3 which exceeds even Varscona (1d8+2, cold damage doesn't get multiplied), katana +1 (1d10+1) or Aule's Staff (1d6+3). With a * in THWS you gain +1 dmg (multiplied) , which you don't get with SWS.
    This damage is more than enough to kill almost every single enemy unless you roll a very low damage dice.

    sarevok57Aerakar
  • jsavingjsaving Member Posts: 687
    If you're talking about a weapon you can actually find early in BG2 and use for most of the game, staff of striking is a great choice. Celestial fury does less damage but would be the more conventional choice, plus its status effect is helpful against foes who might survive the initial attack.

    But yes dagger of stars, BBoD, iron golem fists, etc are great if you are planning what you'll eventually want to backstab with in ToB.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,977
    if you want the best possible back stab possible;
    human

    assassin level 24 ( for UAI ) then dual over to cleric
    once cleric hits level 25 you now have DuHM and righteous magic ( so you deal maximum damage, 25 STR )

    then you can use your scroll of BBoD or shapechange ( or just use the staff of the ram +6 ) and turn you enemies into pudding, or perhaps even annihilate them so hard they become fundamental particles

    TressetBalrog99gorgonzolaStummvonBordwehr
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 385
    Alot of items mentioned in BG2 are later game items. But arguably a "best" item could be something you can acquire early and actually backstab most of the game's content with. And I'm not sure there's a better item than the simple +4 Staff of Rhynn that you can buy at the Adventurer's Mart. Blunt damage is the superior damage type. It's one of the few +4 enchanted weapons you can get early on without taking on any of the more challenging opponents.

    Balrog99monico
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 5,510
    DinoDin wrote: »
    Alot of items mentioned in BG2 are later game items. But arguably a "best" item could be something you can acquire early and actually backstab most of the game's content with. And I'm not sure there's a better item than the simple +4 Staff of Rhynn that you can buy at the Adventurer's Mart. Blunt damage is the superior damage type. It's one of the few +4 enchanted weapons you can get early on without taking on any of the more challenging opponents.

    Good synergy with 2-handed swords too. One pip in 2HW is gold!

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,175
    edited February 5
    sarevok57 wrote: »
    if you want the best possible back stab possible;
    human

    assassin level 24 ( for UAI ) then dual over to cleric
    once cleric hits level 25 you now have DuHM and righteous magic ( so you deal maximum damage, 25 STR )

    then you can use your scroll of BBoD or shapechange ( or just use the staff of the ram +6 ) and turn you enemies into pudding, or perhaps even annihilate them so hard they become fundamental particles
    DinoDin wrote: »
    Alot of items mentioned in BG2 are later game items.
    probably not in ee, but it should work in the original game, it is possible to have monster backstabs in chap 2 soa.

    you have to run a party with charname and a CT only, as they take all the xp is quite fast for the CT to reach 5x backstab and 3M xp for UAI.
    then the CT cast from scroll the limited wish choosing the shapeshift one time only option.
    then charname kills the CT, before the ability to shapeshift expires, and has him resurrected.
    and bingo!
    the shapeshifting ability has become permanent as the toon is resurrected whit the abilities he had when he died, but the timer of the shapeshift is no more active.
    the only thing needed outside of xp is the limited wish scroll that you can get in chap 2.

    then the CT can at will buff for 25 str and RM, automatic maximum damage roll, turn to golem and stab for a granted (40*5)+25 base damage.
    as the granted damage is really relevant i would say that 225 dmg every single stab is not too shabby.
    but i am afraid that to kill and resurrect a toon that way does not work in EE.

    in EE probably the earlier option is to have a charname CT soloing and doing early the underground to get the option to buy from the ribald's special wares.
    buying the BBoD scroll a simulacrum of the CT can use it from the quick slot, this gives a granted 24+5 damage under RM so 145 +25from str=170 dmg.
    that can be repeated each rest for the lev 8 arcane scrolls the CM has, as he must cast the simulacrum.
    but as to rest is not restricted in any way in the game potentially it is 175 granted damage at will, as no rare item is consumed.

    in the case of the simulacrum the clone can use the other quick slots stacking invisibility potions or for a mislead scroll, so can probably stab a whole army without having to run away to hide again.

    those are possible things to do, but outside the fun of doing it one time imho a player should not rely on such crap.
    for my thieves, the class i have more fun to play, in SoA the staff off ryn, of striking only when needed and then ram are the preferred weapons, only sometimes i force myself to have my thieves using other weapons and i would say that celestial fury is not a bad choice it a mage GM the one that has to be stabbed and a cleric or druid doom him as he has a great chance to fail the save against spell and be stunned.
    this, and not the maximum damage, seems to me relevant.
    imo granted damage > chance to apply nasty effects (stun, poison) > maximum possible damage (that with a bad damage roll can give a very low damage, BBoD with a roll of 1 gives only 2+5 base damage, so 35 dmg before str is applied.

    Post edited by gorgonzola on
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 413
    edited February 5
    That's a lot of calculations and hassle for just a few more damage from backstab, when you can already one-shot any enemy with a "normal" build without going into late duals/UAI/shapechange shenanigans.

    Although, I must say, C/T with Righteous Magic and Staff of Rynn (or Striking) seems a very potent combination.

  • _Nightfall__Nightfall_ Member Posts: 224
    edited February 6
    I think it has been covered well. Just a few things that I have noticed.
    BBoD over golem punch. Golem punch is great in theory but sometimes just getting through a door stymies your fun. It is great clearing whole levels in ToB with Simmy, BBoD and the floating eyeball, which is not generally as easy when your simmy is a golem.
    Namarra is maybe not “the best” early backstabbing weapon but it is pretty darn good, and it can be dual wielded, and it has more + to hit. 5-12 as opposed to 10-15 of SoS with no worry of charges. Min/max is important with backstab unless you dual a high level thief to Cleric or kensai/thief dual. SoR is a +4 weapon but is only 5-10. Even for a Cleric/thief multi Blackblood is 4-9+3 acid damage or staffmace which is 4-10, both can be used one handed. It can be nice when you find yourself in the middle of a gaggle of bad guys with your blunt weapon stuck in a mages brainpan if you happen to have a shield in your other hand.

    Sorry, being a little silly. As someone who has backstabbed her way through the game maybe 20+ times, the max backstab weapon usually just takes up space in your backpack while the more versatile workhorse weapon, along with your preferred ranged weapon, are almost always equipped in your main hand. When shoved between the ribs or bashed over the head it will still chunk the opposition almost every time. Even Firetooth set to melee does 5-11+1-2 fire and gives an extra attack per round. Pure power though; spell weapon I would say BBoD, physical weapon definitely SotR.

    monicogorgonzolaAerakar
  • HempzHempz Member Posts: 15
    Playing BG1 recently I've discovered the second best BS weapon after SOS - Staff Spear. And this is rightly so in early BG2 as well.
    Compare its 1d8+3 damage with others, that can be easily acquired early:
    Staff of Rynn: 1d6+4 - costs much.
    Katana +2: 1d10+2 (no +1 dmg for weapon style, after final battle before sailing to Brynnlaw).
    Any long sword +3: 1d8+3 (no +1 dmg for ws, either quite expensive or isn't that easy to get).
    Meanwhile Staff Spear can be acquired in the first day in Athkatla, that mages aren't very tough to beat (one of them can be BSed to start the fight). The staff deals piercing damage, though there aren't many resistant enemies in early SoA, for them there is rather cheap SoS.
    So this weapon weapon is my choice for quite a while in SoA.



  • monicomonico Member Posts: 413
    edited February 6
    Hempz wrote: »
    Playing BG1 recently I've discovered the second best BS weapon after SOS - Staff Spear. And this is rightly so in early BG2 as well.
    Compare its 1d8+3 damage with others, that can be easily acquired early:
    Staff of Rynn: 1d6+4 - costs much.
    Katana +2: 1d10+2 (no +1 dmg for weapon style, after final battle before sailing to Brynnlaw).
    Any long sword +3: 1d8+3 (no +1 dmg for ws, either quite expensive or isn't that easy to get).
    Meanwhile Staff Spear can be acquired in the first day in Athkatla, that mages aren't very tough to beat (one of them can be BSed to start the fight). The staff deals piercing damage, though there aren't many resistant enemies in early SoA, for them there is rather cheap SoS.
    So this weapon weapon is my choice for quite a while in SoA.

    A few things to note though, just taking into account weapons you can get right out of Chateau Irenicus:
    - the Staff Spear has flavour, but does piercing damage, which is the worst damage type (most armors have bonus against piercing, so your effective thac0 is lowered, and many enemies have innate damage resistance against piercing damage).
    - the Namarra sword +2 (damage: 1d8+4) has the exact same damage as the staff spear if you take into account the +1 damage from 2handed weapon fighting style. But the sword is one-handed, has a slightly better speed factor, comes with innate ability (Silence 15' radius, 3x/day, awesome against spellcasters), and does slashing damage (better than piercing damage / worse than blunt damage).
    - Staff of the Rynn +4, although a bit costly, can be acquired very fast with good CHA & REP, and can last you the whole game (until you can craft the Staff of the Ram in ToB) if your main focus is staves. Average damage is the same as the Staff Spear, but grants better thac0, hits as +4 (the damage range is narrower, so arguably, high damage is more consistant than with the Staff Spear), and does crushing damage. Also, it looks darn good.
    - Celestial Fury katana +3: does slashing damage, has the same average damage as all of the above (8,5DMG), although the damage range is wider (1d10+3 vs. SotR 1d6+5 with 2HF), arguably less reliable than the other options. But comes with nasty on-hit effects, the stun effect comes in very handy if your enemy somehow manages to survive your backstab. I'm not saying it's better than the others, but it is definitely comparable.
    - Short Sword of Mask +4: not as good as the above (1 less damage, piercing damage, expensive, special effect is nothing impressive), but can be bought at your earliest convenience by making a quick trip to the exterior of Watcher's Keep. Still, it's there and if you want to use short swords for flavour on your thief, it's the best damage wise and easiest to acquire.
    - Boomerang Dagger +2: 2d4+2 base damage (a bit less than the above: average 7 DMG), also piercing, but can be used in melee or ranged, adds 1 APR (even if used as melee). Maybe not the best for backstabs, but definitely a good weapon for thieves.
    - Staff of Striking +3 (damage: 1d6+9 crushing, average 13,5 DMG with 2H fighting style): cheap to buy, cheap to recharge, not to use as main weapon but just for backstabs against high HP enemies. Can do INSANE backstab damage.

    EDIT:

    Last thing to note about the Staff Spear / Staff of Striking combo: you would probably only use the SoS for backstabs, and the Staff Spear for enemies immune to backstabs.
    Those are mostly :
    - golems;
    - jellies.

    Both are highly resistant to piercing damage. So I don't see much use for the staff spear, I'd prefer another blunt weapon, or dual-wielding Boomerang Dagger + speed weapon for those times when backstabs are not enough to win the fight.

    gorgonzolaAerakar
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,175
    edited February 6
    monico wrote: »
    That's a lot of calculations and hassle for just a few more damage from backstab, when you can already one-shot any enemy with a "normal" build without going into late duals/UAI/shapechange shenanigans.
    it depends on which game you play, in bg the enemies have far less hp then in bg2, on which enemy you want to stab, mages have less hp then fighter types, and on the difficulty level you are playing with.
    with the higher levels there is a damage roll, with the other levels you get always the maximum damage.

    let's take a thief with 5x multiplier that uses a +3 weapon, if the damage roll is used it is possible that the damage is (1 + 3) x 5 = 20.
    i would say that a lot of enemies in bg2 have more then 20hp so the one shot kill is not granted at all playing at the highest levels of difficulty, not talking of LoB, where every enemy needs multiple stabs.

    i, playing tactics mod, have cleared solo the irenicus dungeon with FT and FMT, in the original not EE game, and there you don't find the staff spear, you have to rely on mundane weapons or the +1 dagger until you kill ilich that carries a +3 club. to take down the fighters that replace the vanilla goblins it took me on average 3 stabs, always running away after each stab and hiding again in the split second that i went out of their sight passing a corner. to take down improved ilich himself or his lev 19 cleric helper (you can guess by yourself how many hp a cleric of that level has) 3 was not enough.
    i also try to don't reload if possible, i don't reload if i get a low dmg roll stabbing, even if i am not a no reloader.

    but even playing vanilla the one shot killing stab is only a thing for those that play on the lower difficulties and stab only mages, and there is nothing wrong doing so, is just that for those that play at higher difficulties and stab also the warriors or other high hp creatures the things can be very different.

    a kensai->T or CT can have a granted maxed dmg roll, but a player can want to play other kind of thieves or rely on the npc ones so to use the weapon that gives the better minimum damage, and here the calculations are relevant, and to have a backup plan if the stab gives a low dmg output are really important things for some players.
    i give the priority to the backup plan, both when i use my party thief to clear whole areas solo and when his task is to take away a dangerous enemy at a precise moment of the battle, let's say a powerful mage a split second after my mages take down his stoneskin. if the mage survives i want someone ready to disrupt his casting or some other sort of plan B.

    because even if the thief is also kensai or cleric there is always a chance that he gets a critical failure, even a thief with negative thac0 can miss against a AC20 enemy that has 5hp, it will happen on average 1 time every 20 stabs.



    monicoAerakar
  • Djasko_AmsterdamDjasko_Amsterdam Member Posts: 2
    Imagine going through life and every twentieth thing you do is a Critical Failure

    gorgonzolaAerakariosfrustration
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 413
    @gorgonzola : my comment about over-calculation was more referring to posts comparing very late game duals (like dialing after HLAs), which seem a bit weird to gimp backstabs for at least 6 million XP just to add 2 base damage for late game ToB backstabs.

    But still, the builds suggested were interesting and insightful, I did not mean to sound acerb.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,175
    @monico : yes, and i completely agree with you on that.
    such extreme builds are something that can be fun to do once, for a player that had so many walktroughs that is looking at something new, not something i would suggest to do on a regular basis.
    when i proposed my 2 builds that should allow 225 and 170 granted minimum damage in mid soa i also told "those are possible things to do, but outside the fun of doing it one time imho a player should not rely on such crap" .

    those are builds that should one shot kill almost every soa and tob enemy that is not immune to back stab, and even with them there are the risks of critical failure and that the enemy saves if he has good ac, but i had never to rely on them, as i never use the mislead trick to multiple stabs without the enemy even reacting (that makes potentially bg2 imoen a super stabber even with her 3x multiplier as soon as she cast mislead and tensor transformation or DW, improve haste herself and cast a time stop for 12 granted stabs no matter enemy's ac).

    but it is not the way i have fun to use my thieves, i see this kind of over calculation an interesting thing for forum's purposes, as a form of brain storming.
    and i saw many threads doing that, for the better possible back stab, ranged attacker and on and over.
    reading them i learned new things and i got some new ideas that i use in my own experimentation and that somehow help me in devising better "regular" tactics, in improving my efficiency in my own play style.
    and this, and only this, is the purpose of such threads on extreme builds.

    monico
  • monicomonico Member Posts: 413
    Precisely, reading this thread reminded me of the great combo that is C/T backstabbing under Righteous Magic.

    I also discovered that Iron Golem form can backstab which I find very funny (surely powerful too)

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