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Whats the best Thief kit...

toolargtoolarg Member Posts: 180
in General Discussion (Spoiler Warning!)
...and why is it the Bounty Hunter?
Goddamn I love this guy so much. Scout the place, set the traps, backstab a sucker and let the rest chase you, hear that nice SNAP sound and watch everything explode.
Stand aside ASSassins and swashies, Bounty Hunter is king.
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Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Bounty Hunter is the only thief kit I never play. Why? Because they don't work well with what I do, i.e. bulldoze everything into the ground with extreme prejudice. CC is nice, but I find it overrated. Dead = CCed forever.

    Of course, Nightmare Mode may be a different story. Will have to try things out there.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    The only thief kit that I have a hard time with is the Shadowdancer. It's just weird and unintuitive.
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,870
    Well, it could be worse. Just be glad it ain't a Shadowboxer kit. :p
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    I like Shadowdancers... Especially my Berserker->Shadowdancer dual-class!
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    But Swashbuckler has all the swagger...
  • toolargtoolarg Member Posts: 180
    Swashy is heavily item dependant. He MUST get the weapons with extra attacks and the various enchanted leather armors or hes worthless.
    Assassin's powers come too late into play and then in TOB hes reduced to nothing.
    Shadowdancers: L-O-L :lol:
    The Bounty Man doesnt need any special items to shine, he relies on his own innate skills to survive, the true sign of a good kit :triumph:
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    I think Swash is the most powerful kit.
    I think Assassin is the most fun kit.

    I never felt the need for Bounty as the standard traps are already super powerful and the special ones seem slightly redundant except for their special effects (which don't matter when everything is dead).

    I don't like Shadowdancer as I love my traps and I love big backstab numbers, neither of which this kit has.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    The key thing about Bounty Hunter traps is the Resilient Sphere and Maze effects. You don't get them until late in the game, but for a solo character, the Maze effect is quite extraordinary, allowing you to clear the screen in a boss battle and lay damage traps at your leisure.

    That and the fact that the BH traps can be thrown. The Bounty Hunter isn't there for extra trap damage; it opens up tactical options.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    semiticgod said:

    The key thing about Bounty Hunter traps is the Resilient Sphere and Maze effects. You don't get them until late in the game, but for a solo character, the Maze effect is quite extraordinary, allowing you to clear the screen in a boss battle and lay damage traps at your leisure.

    That and the fact that the BH traps can be thrown. The Bounty Hunter isn't there for extra trap damage; it opens up tactical options.

    I can certainly get on board with the idea that bounty is the best single class thief solo character but that is a pretty small niche. If dualing is on the table then I'd mean towards Swash or Ass as the utility that Bounty provides can instead be provided by the other class (Mage or cleric).

    In EE I believe the throwing traps thing is nerfed to require no enemies to be near the trap (I think - only played a bounty in my no-reload IWD party which is waiting until I can upgrade to 1.4).
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    In a perfect game, there would be NPCs from every subclass that would allow you to explore the strengths and weaknesses of each within a party. I think a party of all thieves would be an interesting and fun challenge throughout the BG trilogy, with each subclass to occupy a special role within the group. My favorite is the assassin, which only seems to work well in a party with another thief to handle opening locks and finding traps. I usually have Monty modded to an assassin in BG, but I have to rely heavily on skill-boosting potions if he's the solo thief in my party.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    Mortianna said:

    In a perfect game, there would be NPCs from every subclass that would allow you to explore the strengths and weaknesses of each within a party. I think a party of all thieves would be an interesting and fun challenge throughout the BG trilogy, with each subclass to occupy a special role within the group. My favorite is the assassin, which only seems to work well in a party with another thief to handle opening locks and finding traps. I usually have Monty modded to an assassin in BG, but I have to rely heavily on skill-boosting potions if he's the solo thief in my party.

    I think 2 thieves in bg1 is definitely optimal though preferably multi/dual class or kitted. Having 2 thieves with good move silently and set traps with 1 taking high OL and the other FT is a perfect combo to demolish the game as you backstab the first 2 enemies of each fight and then clean up with the rest of the party.

  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    As an avid Thief player, who has completed BGEE solo ot almost-solo and ventured far into BG2EE with each Thief kit except Shadowdancers (they are weird), Assassins are fun and lethal when you learn to use poison. Swashbucklers are utility fighters, but a bit boring. Plain Thieves are best coupled with another class (dual/multi) ... and Bounty Hunters are the most fun, but require the most preparation and tend to suck when surprised.
    Southpaw the Thief Master has spoken.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Mortianna said:

    In a perfect game, there would be NPCs from every subclass that would allow you to explore the strengths and weaknesses of each within a party. I think a party of all thieves would be an interesting and fun challenge throughout the BG trilogy, with each subclass to occupy a special role within the group. My favorite is the assassin, which only seems to work well in a party with another thief to handle opening locks and finding traps. I usually have Monty modded to an assassin in BG, but I have to rely heavily on skill-boosting potions if he's the solo thief in my party.

    I had CHARNAME-Swashie, Monty, Imoen, Safana + later Eldoth (technically a rogue) and Tiax. We've back-stabbed our way through sword coast and it was bloody.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    Poison Weapon doesn't improve with levels, at least in the EE, it's an old myth and thankfully so as it is already powerful enough.

    For Shadowdancers :

    1 : Use HiPS
    2 : Use HiPS
    3 : Abuse HiPS
    4 : Watch how the AI can't do anything to harm you even with SCS (exept for Liches)
    5 : ???
    6 : Profit
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,964
    Gotural said:

    Poison Weapon doesn't improve with levels, at least in the EE, it's an old myth and thankfully so as it is already powerful enough.

    For Shadowdancers :

    1 : Use HiPS
    2 : Use HiPS
    3 : Abuse HiPS
    4 : Watch how the AI can't do anything to harm you even with SCS (exept for Liches)
    5 : ???
    6 : Profit

    too much micromanagement for me to abuse hips.

    Piping away 3 damage at a guy for 10 minutes to kill him is not fun.
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    Shadowdancers are awesome. Plain and simple. Especially when dualed into fighter at lvl 12. HiPS+Cloak of Non-Detection = No one will ever see you if you don't want to.

    With any other thieves you are limited to around 4 backstabs per any given fight assuming you have the initial stealth move, 2 rings of invisibility and a cast invisibility from your mage/whatever. A shadowdancer can HiPS unto eternity. No limits to how many guys he can backstab. Saying the modifier is too low is crap.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    JoshBG said:


    Thief's kits are distinct and well balanced. In this case, you're literally choosing a playstyle, not a "pros vs cons" ratio.

    Can't agree more.
    JoshBG said:


    P.S Although, in my opinion, the Assassin is not very well suited for BG1; the fact that the poison stacks on itself, coupled with the low-level world, makes the kit almost "gamebreakingly" strong.

    That is outweighted by his intense lack of skillpoints and the fact that in BGEE, you have tops 2-3 uses a day. Assassin is good (having played him in party and solo through BGEE)...however lacks skillpoints if the only thief in group.
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Might be a bit of shameless self-promotion, but I wrote a guide about Thieves a while ago

    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/34607/theft-robbery-and-occasional-murder-or-a-short-guide-to-thieves-solo-or-in-group#latest
  • jesterdesujesterdesu Member Posts: 373
    All the thief kits are great and all offer something unique. Bounty hunter if you want to set up ambushes, swash if you want to go toe to toe, assassin if you want to, well, assassinate... Poison really is ridiculously strong early game.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    I like thief kits but not a fan of bounty hunter. The trap throwing is cheesy and I hardly ever rest, so traps are not much use anyway.

    Assassins and Swashies are great but need some fighter levels to get the most out of them (dual class preferably and kit with Shadowkeeper). A Fighter (9) / Swashbuckler is a hideously awesome tank, unbelievable AC (wear full plate since you don't need stealth) and loads of damage on every hit.A Fighter (9) / Assassin is a brilliant backstabber.

    My favourite of all is effectively a Swashbuckler / Assassin, which you can simulate with the Duelist fighter kit (sword and fist or just shadowkeeper with a plain fighter). I'm currently playing a Duelist (10) / Assassin. +2 to hit and damage and +3 AC from the Duelist, and a further +1 to hit and damage as an Assassin. The backstabs are insane, level 21+ and even with just a katana +1 regular backstabs do around 100 damage and I've hit 240 with a crit. Once I have better weapons and the right equipment I reckon I could do 350 on a crit :p
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Jaheiras_Witness: Throwing a bear trap is cheesy, but 350 damage backstabs are not?
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    How is a backstab cheesy? It's about as canon as rogue attacks go. The level of damage is consequence of maximising backstab potential with the best kit, grandmastery, the best backstabbing katana you can find and a 1 in 20 critical hit.

    Anyway I haven't even got to that yet, 240 best so far. Besides it's just a personal target to gun for. There's practically no difference between a 150 damage backstab and a 350 damage backstab...nearly anything vulnerable to a backstab is dead anyway.

    In any case if you think that's bad, just wait until Improved Haste and Assassination HLA ;).
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I don't consider backstabbing cheesy, myself. I was objecting to calling the trap throwing thingy cheesy. It's just that there's no real reason why a Special Snare can't be thrown, since it's clearly a magical device, considering its crazy abilities.

    It's not a tripwire or a a pressure plate or an actual bear trap, which an enemy would have to step on to trigger. Bounty Hunters sacrifice their thieving skills to dabble in magical doodads, hence the weird effects: a trap wouldn't slow a target, or paralyze them, or trap them in a Resilient Sphere, or Maze them, unless it had some magical stuff in it. A motion-sensor ability on a Bounty Hunter trap would make conceptual sense, considering the other magical properties they have, allowing a Bounty Hunter to throw them somewhere, rather than setting them up.

    Don't forget you can backstab every hit with Mislead once your thief gets UAI for scrolls. And you get automatic hits during Time Trap, so even low AC enemies can be brought down reliably with Assassination.
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 614
    Yeah Mislead will be very nice too.

    I guess when I think of a trap, even if it is some kind of magical device, I think about something that has to be prepared, that take time to set properly and which needs to be disguised so it catches enemies unaware. "Throwing" them near enemies makes no sense to me...how come the enemy can't see it or take action to avoid it? You get saving throws against nearly everything in this game but not against some piddling trap that you can see thrown in your face?

    That doesn't make sense to me as I would only ever use traps in an area where nobody can see the trap being set and where you would lead the enemy to, rather than in the enemy's own face. Each to their own though, as you yourself noted in the no-reload thread, everybody has the right to interpret the game in their own way and I wholeheartedly concur.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Jaheiras_Witness: It can still be a surprise even if the trap is thrown. Think of it this way. Let's say Irenicus is facing a solo Bounty Hunter at the Tree of Life, right after Ellesime disappears.

    BH: "Hey! Look over there!"
    *Irenicus turns around*
    Jonbon: "What? What am I looking at? I don't see nothing."
    *Bounty Hunter runs away*
    Jonbon: "I'm gonna stop looking soon..."
    *Bounty Hunter throws a trap*
    Jonbon: (pointing at the Tree) "Wait, is that it?"
    *Trap goes off*

    See? Makes perfect sense! Yeah!
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    I also find it a little silly to say throwing traps is cheesy, and then turn around and use Shadowkeeper to dual class into kits. I'll grant you that the former has more potential to break immersion, but given that the latter is both more powerful and requires a savegame editor, it seems pretty clearly the cheesier option to me.

    Don't get me wrong, though, you can play how you want to play. No judgement here. I just find it very strange to take two probably-not-intended mechanics and call only the less powerful one cheesy.
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    As far as I know, you can use any kit for multiclasses characters in PnP.
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