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  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Since this is technically a new game, will the game engine be fixed/improved?

    Particularly the annoying poorly designed bits like path and trap finding?

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,949

    Since this is technically a new game, will the game engine be fixed/improved?

    Particularly the annoying poorly designed bits like path and trap finding?

    Pathfinding has already been improved in the last BG2/IWD patch, so I think it's safe to assume that improvement will carry over to Adventure Y.

    As for trap finding, I don't know what you mean. I don't see any faults in it.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    Pathfinding is still bad. Characters still go the opposite way.

    Trap finding in any dungeon full of traps involves staring at the screen doing nothing for 6 seconds. Disarming any traps found, moving the party a few feet forward, staring at the screen for another 6 seconds. Disarming any traps found. Etc. It's tedious work that doesn't really take any skill except patience.

    It doesn't help that a character can move farther than the Thief's detection range in a span of 6 seconds. So even simply walking through areas can cause the party to trigger traps even if a thief is detcting them.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    I've been playing IWD and there are times when party members walk the other way and keep walking for a distance until they realize they're going the wrong way. So no, pathfinding is still bad. It's improved but it's still bad.

    Wizards memorizing spells also involves spending an hour after a full night's rest to prepare them. So why doesn't the game pause for an hour after every rest so the party wizards and clerics can prepare their spells?

    It's tedious micromanagement that serves no real purpose. Hell I don't think I've ever played a tabletop session where the DM just pauses because an action takes 5 minutes to do. Hey you're going to climb a wall? Well that'll take 30 minutes so let's just all sit here for 30 minutes doing nothing while the thief climbs the wall. How exciting!

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    The thing is detecting traps usually occurs outside of combat. There's no point stretching it out. Same goes for climbing walls, if it takes 30 minutes to climb a wall, there's no point going through each minute if all it means is standing around and waiting for the thief to climb up a wall.

    The whole turn based explanation might matter if trap detection occurs during combat, there's a real sense of time. Every round a thief is detecting traps is a round it's not fighting. Outside of combat there isn't. It's just actual real time that the player is spending staring at the screen. Every round the Thief is detecting traps is the actual 6 seconds spent staring at the screen.

    procco
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,025

    The thing is detecting traps usually occurs outside of combat. There's no point stretching it out. Same goes for climbing walls, if it takes 30 minutes to climb a wall, there's no point going through each minute if all it means is standing around and waiting for the thief to climb up a wall.

    The whole turn based explanation might matter if trap detection occurs during combat, there's a real sense of time. Every round a thief is detecting traps is a round it's not fighting. Outside of combat there isn't. It's just actual real time that the player is spending staring at the screen. Every round the Thief is detecting traps is the actual 6 seconds spent staring at the screen.

    But what if detecting traps happens DURING combat or when an enemy is prowling around? A DM can differeniate, an computer program not so much.

    The cave where you get the Con Stat tome is a huge example of this. The player needs to be careful not to arouse the suspision of the flesh golums as he attempts to detect traps. The monsters move about for those 6 seconds as the player attempts to remain hidden until the trap is detected. If they auto lit as soon as you hit the button, it'd make that area less challenging.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    So one example justifies a whole crapload of waiting? How much trap detecting actually goes on in combat?

    And the game is already not that strict with combat actions. You can shoot a bow, and walk away then stop before the round ends and be ready to shoot. In normal D&D you could only move a predetermined amount if you attack that round. Here the distance a character can cover is solely determined by how much time the character has left before the round ends once they're done attacking.

    If the game actually made trap detection and combat a common thing then sure, but it doesn't. Most of trap detection is spent when nothing else is happening. It's mostly stand for 6 seconds, disarm, move forward a bit, stand for 6 seconds disarm etc.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    I know they add to the game but on the reverse flawed mechanics also subtract from the game. The traps in IWD didn't feel menacing they felt tedious.

    And I'm not asking if traps should be removed, I'm asking if trap detection is going to be fixed. So only the danger remains while they take out whole sections of screen staring.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,918
    edited April 2015
    Trap finding should continuously ping instead of one per round. If my trap finding skill is too low, don't find it. Otherwise please do so ASAP.

    I believe that trap finding should get negative penalties from certain conditions too, such that it helps to put more points in it.

    (Following numbers are examples and not based on anything but my RNG today)
    In battle finding -25%. Door -10%. Chest -5%. Floor -10%. Statues/etc -20%. Underground/darkness -15%. And then give races a bonus to each type (gnome gets bonus to statue/door/chest/darkness but penalty to floor/battle..... (like every race has a chance to find a hidden door).... or something.

    That should add flavour.
    as a result, lower generic trap level difficulty.

    Edit: sorry for the off topic in the off topic thread about adventure Y (which will come out November this year).

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,949

    And I'm not asking if traps should be removed, I'm asking if trap detection is going to be fixed.

    No, you're asking for trap detection to be altered to fit your particular gameplay preferences. And sure, if it's easy to do, by all means add an option to the game for continuous trap detection pinging. I will not be using it, because I think it defeats the purpose of having traps in the first place.

    cmk24dunbarJuliusBorisovlolien
  • DexterDexter Member Posts: 253
    I've never thought of that, but this is why they probably add xp to trap removal. Yes, you have to be patient and find/remove those traps, but you are rewarded. It's not a big amount of xp for say 15th level characters but right off the start of the game every little help counts

    elminstercmk24dunbarJuliusBorisov
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    I seriously doubt staring at a screen with nothing happening for 6 seconds then doing routine click work (disarm move party a bit forward) then repeating the process over and over is a purely subjective flaw.

  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605

    I seriously doubt staring at a screen with nothing happening for 6 seconds then doing routine click work (disarm move party a bit forward) then repeating the process over and over is a purely subjective flaw.

    I actually don't see this as a flaw, I see it as being careful in a dangerous place (i.e. an intended game play mechanic).

    Aduldunbarmeagloth
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,949
    It's the game's way to circumvent the "my character is careful all the time" issue that has been plaguing PnP campaigns since the dawn of roleplaying. If your character is keeping an eye out for traps, I don't think it's too much for the game to ask of the player to take at least some part in that responsibility.

    hispls
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    Oh then why not have the player, take responsibility for other things an adventurer party has to do. Like cooking, eating, weapon and gear maintenance, let's load up the game with a hundred time wasting mandatory mini games.

    It's not a problem because it's pretty much expected that an adventuring party is being careful when moving through a dungeon. It's pretty silly that the default assumption when there's a thief skilled in detecting traps in the party that the party isn't having them search for traps in a dungeon. Oh there's this dungeon and your party with a Thief whose skills are just lopsided favoring Detect Trap walks in and they fall into the first trap because you didn't say you were detecting traps. Really? The first 70+ skill points into Detect Trap didn't tip the DM off that obviously the Thief is going to detect traps as often as possible?

    The player is already being careful by beelining to pumping up that Detect Trap score and always including a thief.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,949
    A lot of CRPGs feature activities that you have listed up there, including eating, repairing gear, crafting, etc. BG focuses on other things.

    We can argue all day about how deeply involved the player should be in detecting traps, but the thing is it's up to personal preference. Hence my point that altering this aspect of the gameplay would not be a "fix".

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    And do any of these RPGs involve staring at the screen for 6 seconds doing nothing over and over and over again?

    It's a fix because of that.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Accepting the status quo is rarely a preference. You may choose not to complain, but don't tell me that given the choice you'd rather be doing nothing for 6 seconds than be doing SOMETHING that as a result shows you nearby traps.

    I'm not offering alternatives here, but I do strongly agree that forcing people to basically not play in regular intervals is not good design. It's antiquated design is what it is.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,949
    We're talking about 6 second intervals here, not hours or even minutes at a time. And yes, I do prefer to do nothing for 6 seconds as long as it serves some legitimate purpose. And as far as I'm concerned, adding tension to dungeons is a legitimate purpose, and a hundred percent success on trap detection (with a high enough thief skill level) would remove that.

    There are so many ways you could streamline BG's gameplay to fit with today's industry standards. You could remove the wait time from hold and web spells when out of combat. You could balance overpowered enemy abilities, like basilisk petrification and ghast paralysis. You could tweak fireball's damage so that it doesn't wipe out most groups of mobs in one hit. You could adjust starting areas so that most enemies don't kill you in one hit right out of the gate of Candlekeep. You could adjust the classes to equalize their power levels across the board. I want absolutely none of this, however.

    Most of today's gamers and developers fail to recognize that it's okay for a game to induce emotions like anger, fear, and frustration, as these do add to the overall experience. The last thing BG needs is to be turned into one of those modern soulless RPGs that roll off the conveyor belts every year.

    Dexterdunbar
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,025

    Oh then why not have the player, take responsibility for other things an adventurer party has to do. Like cooking, eating, weapon and gear maintenance, let's load up the game with a hundred time wasting mandatory mini games.

    None of these things can kill your character in a second. Traps can.

    It's not a problem because it's pretty much expected that an adventuring party is being careful when moving through a dungeon. It's pretty silly that the default assumption when there's a thief skilled in detecting traps in the party that the party isn't having them search for traps in a dungeon. Oh there's this dungeon and your party with a Thief whose skills are just lopsided favoring Detect Trap walks in and they fall into the first trap because you didn't say you were detecting traps. Really? The first 70+ skill points into Detect Trap didn't tip the DM off that obviously the Thief is going to detect traps as often as possible?

    The player is already being careful by beelining to pumping up that Detect Trap score and always including a thief.
    Nope don't buy that.

    DM: you walk through the doorway into a large room with grey walls and a grey floor. There are single gold coins scattered across the floor and a small chest that is open in the middle. What do you do.
    Character: I pick up one of the coins to examine it.
    DM: The coin was holding down a pressure plate, that when released, starts filling the room with a green smoke. Roll a will save.
    Character: It was trapped? I would have detected it, I have 90 in find traps!
    DM: Nope, you didn't take the time to look for traps.
    Character: You should assume I did.
    DM: And assuming does what...


    So how do you justify that the party is being careful while walking in the dungeon in a video game? Should they take the PoE approach and have everyone walk at half speed instead? That is more annoying IMO.

    Dexterdunbar
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    I don't mind the trap detection mechanic, but I would like it if you could tell your party to walk at a slower pace while detecting traps to avoid the start-stop micromanaging.

    Adul
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    To go with the PnP analogy, it should be more like this:

    DM: "You enter a large room with lots of stuff in it."
    Char: "Ok, I go and check for traps."
    DM: "Fair enough. Now we sit back and wait for 6 seconds doing nothing at all, then I'll tell you whether you found anything or not."
    Char: "You're kidding. Can't we just skip that and you tell me right away."
    DM: "Not talking to you for 5 more seconds."

    JuliusBorisovdjc
  • ZalsonZalson Member Posts: 103

    DM: "Fair enough. Now we sit back and wait for 6 seconds doing nothing at all, then I'll tell you whether you found anything or not."
    The amount of time it took me to read this specific section out loud was about 6 seconds. So it would appear that the game's delay is an adequate approximation of the PnP interaction.

    What would everyone's suggested alternative mechanic be? I'm fine with traps the way they are.

    WithinAmnesiaDexter
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,161
    Zalson said:

    The amount of time it took me to read this specific section out loud was about 6 seconds. So it would appear that the game's delay is an adequate approximation of the PnP interaction.

    Do you really think it would be ok in a PnP game to have everyone pause for 6 seconds and not do anything every time you checked for traps? And remember: not doing ANYTHING. No talking with people or whatever, because that's what the video game makes you do. It's literally 6 second intervals of you staring at the screen.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,980
    Even in BG you can do something. You can inch your way forward while you have a thief or cleric (with find traps active) in the front checking for traps.

    ArduldunbarJuliusBorisov
This discussion has been closed.