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Trap Mechanics in the EE

2

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    It's true. You can also walk in circles. Or repeatedly click your characters hoping they say something funny. Or walk up to Neera and pretend you're copping a feel.

    LOTS of things!

    semiticgod
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    It's not just 6 seconds by the way given how small the detect trap radius is because it certainly isn't the full LOS

    DM : There's 120 foot hallway (given some corridors in IWD are the span of 2 Fireballs)
    Thief : Detect Traps
    DM : Okay.
    6 seconds pass, players look at each other
    DM : No traps in the first 20 or so feet.
    Fighter : Uh okay. We move forward 20 feet
    Thief : And Detect Traps again
    DM : Sure
    6 seconds pass
    DM : Nope no traps for another 20 feet
    Fighter : Okay, why do you pause for 6 seconds?
    DM : That's how long it takes for the Thief to Detect Traps, you know, realism! Anyway no traps, what does your party do next?
    ~entire corridor is clean~
    Fighter : Finally
    DM : As you reach the end of the corridor, you see it turn around into another corridor that's roughly as long as tje one you just passed


    Welcome to a dungeon from Icewind Dale which is full of two fireball long corridors forcing the player to slowly, slowly walk to the end because traps can kill them. Speaking of what can kill the party.

    Not eating can cause the party to die of starvation, not cooking can cause the party to die from food poisonimg, not maintaining gear can cause the tank to die from so many different ways, armor falls off due to a strap not being peoperly maintained, a slash getting through because of rust, a dent hammered in further and further an cause the tank to die from suffocation.

    So if Traps must be dealt with this way for "realism" because they're fatal why not everything else. Want to rest? Gotta play the cooking minigame every 5 seconds do a rotating gesture with your mouse for 30 minutes. Want to eat? Pinching gesture on your tablet every 6 seconds.

    So much realism, so much tedious realism

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,436
    If a tabletop group had BG's visibility radius, though, it wouldn't be a 120 foot hallway that the DM describes; it would be 30 feet of hallway. The players would deal with those 30 feet, and then they'd move on and the DM would describe the next thirty feet, and so on.

    So the process is still represented the same way; the larger limitation, it seems, is that your visibility radius is limited to 30 feet when it might realistically be closer to 500 feet (but that would be problematic in an engine that uses things like line of sight to trigger cutscenes).

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    The distance doesn't matter what matters is that each corridor in a dungeon that has the travel length equivalent to dozens of those corridors forces the players to repeatedly stop for 6 seconds (5-6 times per corridor) to detect traps with the DM not saying anything for those 6 seconds.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,436
    The distance factors in because it doesn't take six seconds to walk those thirty feet, so you do end up waiting. To use your example, if you could see 120 feet out, by the time you reached the corridor's end, six seconds would have long since passed, meaning that you wouldn't be stuck waiting. Since you are limited to thirty feet, each thirty foot stretch is essentially a new room from the perspective of the DM.

    I suppose you could alleviate the problem by making your characters move more slowly...

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Which again doesn't matter

    If the player wants to detect traps in a single corridor in the game with dungeons spanning multiple corridors they need to stop playing for 6 seconds over and over again. Then repeat this for the next corridor. And the next and the next.

    In tabletop terms the players and the DM stare at each other for 6 seconds until the DM finally rolls. Then repeats the process over and over with the same 6 seconds of dull nothing.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,380
    The point is that it works digitally but the intervals are too large to still be a fluent game (same as turn undead btw). There is no way to decrease the wait time either. At least spell casting and physical fighting can be sped/evolved.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517
    edited April 2015
    I find the PnP comparisons rather useless, because quite obviously, the Infinity Engine games are not tabletop games, they're video games. Of course it doesn't make sense that a group of people would stare at each other for however long and do nothing. You're injecting a highly awkward social situation you've invented into a discussion about video game wait times, when that's not even close to being comparable to the topic being discussed.

    The reality is that many games make you wait for short periods of time (or even long ones) when participating in certain in-game activities. These wait times can serve various functions, like balancing rewards, simulating reality, or in this particular case, adding tension. All the while I find the "I'm bored" argument such a superficial complaint, when games can do so much more than overload you with constant audiovisual stimulation.

    Grum
  • Jaheiras_WitnessJaheiras_Witness Member Posts: 384
    Traps as implemented are crap, no amount of apologizing or rationalising can get away from that. They're tedious, one-dimensional and painful. It's not just 6 seconds, it's 6 seconds per few yards. Constantly checking is so mindnumbingly dull as to defeat the point of playing. Trying to check for traps in somewhere like Watcher's Keep turns the game into hours of just staring at the screen.

    The DAO mechanic is infinitely better. Have a large range, constantly on and have min trap skill requirements to detect (and higher requirement to remove). That makes the skill still useful, still requires you to semi-cautious (rogue still near the front possibly stealthed, fighters cannot just charge around everywhere with Haste) but removes 100% of the micromanagement making the game experience massively better.

    Even though this will never be fixed for BG games, thankfully there's an easy though not ideal solution: just use tweakpack to disable all traps and locks. Problem solved, just accept the XP loss.

  • hisplshispls Member Posts: 166

    To go with the PnP analogy, it should be more like this:

    DM: "You enter a large room with lots of stuff in it."
    Char: "Ok, I go and check for traps."
    DM: "Fair enough. Now we sit back and wait for 6 seconds doing nothing at all, then I'll tell you whether you found anything or not."
    Char: "You're kidding. Can't we just skip that and you tell me right away."
    DM: "Not talking to you for 5 more seconds."


    In a proper game:

    DM: "You enter a large room with lots of stuff in it".
    Careful McSearchalot: "I search for traps"
    DM: *Makes a show of looking at notes makes player roll a few times* whether or not there are any traps in the area
    DM: "You cannot find any traps.
    Careful McSearchalot: "OK I'll search for traps on the door to the next hallway"
    DM: *note reading...dice rolling*
    DM: "You find nothing"
    Careful McSearchalot "Search for traps along the hallway"
    DM: *roll roll roll* (Since players have now spent half an hour in two rooms searching one roll is wandering monsters.
    DM: You are jumped by some bugbears.
    .
    .
    .
    .
    ...... three months later game time the players actually get through a dungeon the size of a 15,000 square foot house. Think searching as in soldiers crossing a mine field or police searching a house in a drug raid. Searching a chest or door would be somewhat faster, but traps along a floor, hallway, under a rug, etc. etc. could really be anywhere so thorough searching would be necessary.

    Of course a wise DM would use traps strategically enough that players aren't nagging to search every step they take, and yet enough to keep them on their toes so if they get hit by something nasty they "should have known to check"

    I find the slow pace of movement in BG games while trap detecting is an excellent bit of realism and tension building. Certainly that's about the pace you would be moving if a thief was actively searching for traps or secret doors. By my estimation it's an excellently implemented mechanic and game device.



    The player is already being careful by beelining to pumping up that Detect Trap score and always including a thief.

    So why not just make a mod for yourself that disables all traps by simply including a thief in your party? Or better yet, go out and buy Call of Duty or a final fantasy game if your idea of role playing is just being spoon-fed a story and mashing combat buttons.

    AdulGrum
  • dunbardunbar Member Posts: 1,217
    Not being a professional thief myself the closest analogy I can think of (from experience) would be tracking game in the African bush. In that scenario the tracker leads the party, moving at a speed that he/she is comfortable with. The tracker's speed is determined by his or her skill at detecting and following spoor.
    Therefore I would think that the way to duplicate this in a game (if it's possible) would be for the whole party's movement rate to be slowed when the thief starts detecting traps. The rate to which movement is slowed would be determined by the thief's 'detect traps' skill. Movement rate could be set to automatically go back to 100% on 'trap detected', 'enemy sighted' etc. (and switching off 'detecting traps' at the same time).

    joluvelminsterJuliusBorisovAdul
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    Which modern videogame makes players wait 6 seconds repeatedly for no reason other than "realism"?

    Speaking of realism, if people don't eat they will most likely die. So do I assume my characters eat? Why? Apparently I can't assume my Thief took a good amount of time searching for traps. Traps kill. So does hunger.

    Because I need to be made aware how dangerous traps are? Gosh, the damage or whatever trap effects aren't already enough to make people aware of that? Here's a Fireball trap that can kill your entire party if their level or HP rolls are low. Nope not threatening. Here's the same trap, except it takes you 6 seconds to scout a relatively small possible location it could be in. Oh my suddenly traps are threatening!

    If a trap can kill my party, I'm going to plan around that. Traps are almost always a factor in party design in this game no matter how much a player is powergaming. When something is still important when powergamers are designing a party, then obviously whatever makes that element of the game important is acknowledged.

    And spoonfed a story what? This game spoon feds players a story as most Final Fantasy games. Mashing combat buttons? This game is also as mashy as a Final Fantasy game.

    Post edited by Zyzzogeton on
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    If you're in for realism, then you better stop playing for 8 hours every time you rest, and for days every time you travel.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517

    Which modern videogame makes players wait 6 seconds repeatedly for no reason other than "realism"?

    Skyrim does, when you're resting/waiting. Guild Wars 2 does, when you're harvesting/crafting. Skyrim does again, when you're mining.

    Speaking of realism, if people don't eat they will most likely die. So do I assume my characters eat? Why? Apparently I can't assume my Thief took a good amount of time searching for traps. Traps kill. So does hunger.

    Once again, there are plenty of games where you need to feed your character manually. Are those also mechanically flawed? If so, why did the developers of those games go to such lengths to implement a mechanical flaw in their game?

    And spoonfed a story what? This game spoon feds players a story as most Final Fantasy games. Mashing combat buttons? This game is also as mashy as a Final Fantasy game.

    Button mashing is not something you ever need to do in any of the IE games. As for spoonfed stories, if you're talking about IWD, sure. But if we're talking about the plot of BG1, that's about as far from a spoonfed story as you can get. Not that that factors in any way into how traps are being handled.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,084
    You can't analyze time-based mechanics in a vacuum. What's important is how they integrate into the game flow. There is a difference between having it take a few seconds to craft an item, and having to stop what you're doing for numerous 6-second intervals in the middle of a dungeon.

    It's about game flow, and how/why it is interrupted. Things like resting etc. work with the natural flow - trap finding interrupts it.

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517
    I think trap detection in BG plays into the flow of dungeon crawling very well. If you worry about traps, it's up to you to take the time to search the corridors. Or you can rush and risk it. You know, deal with the consequences of your decisions. If trap detection was continuous, your choice would be removed, because not searching for traps or doing a sloppy job of it would provide you with no benefits whatsoever.

    dunbarGrum
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,380
    I have read enough players stating that they are so fed up with trap finding that they just trigger them, Quick load, disarm, quick save. That tells me enough.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    None of those games even approach how tedious IE games handle trap detection.

    Let's take a player who doesn't know anything about the game, isn't consulting a guide. What exactly is going tell this player that the dungeon they're exploring has traps or not if they don't use Detect Trap for the entire dungeon?

    As for feeding character's manually, which games actually take it to the extent that IE games do with trap detecting? In a roguelike I played, eating is as simple as going to the inventory screen, then double clicking on a piece of food. And my character isn't hungry for a considerably long time.

    If that roguelike made hunger tedious the same way IE games made traps tedious, my character would be hungry again after 1-2 steps.

    So that isn't even remotely close to a constant 6 second interruption where I'm doing nothing but stare at the screen.

    So again tell me of a game where players have to stop playing for a buttload of intervals that practically occur right after the other.

    Oh and deal with the consequences of your actions? I find this hilarious. Do you somehow forget that this game allows reloading?
    Button mashing is not something you ever need to do in any of the IE games.
    Surprise, you don't need to button mash in Final Fantasy games either except for specific mini games/limit breaks
    But if we're talking about the plot of BG1, that's about as far from a spoonfed story as you can get.
    Oh wow BG2's plot isn't spoonfed? Why? Because sidequests? Later Final Fantasy games have sidequests. Because there's a portion of the game where the player is in some pseudo open world bit? Figuring out where to go in that particular part of the game is pretty easy. And really just amounts of a bunch of side quests.

    So really don't pretend BG2 this masterpiece in how it delivers its story. It's pretty straightforward. Or that FF games are all about button mashing because they aren't.

    Oh and if you don't think people view certain aspects of Skyrim's gameplay to be tedious, you don't have a good grasp of the game's community then. Maxing skills in Skyrim is tedious, but here's the thing, you don't need to max skills in Skyrim, and the alternative to not dealing with the tedious aspects of Skyrim doesn't involve a situation where you're more likely to get a game over.

    If you think the choice between mining in Skyrim and not mining is the same as the "choice" between trap detecting or just running through traps, you're just plain wrong.

    Post edited by Zyzzogeton on
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517
    Ok, let's do this in order. There's no backing out now. :smiley:

    None of those games even approach how tedious IE games handle trap detection.

    Let's take a player who doesn't know anything about the game, isn't consulting a guide. What exactly is going tell this player that the dungeon they're exploring has traps or not if they don't use Detect Trap for the entire dungeon?

    In an ideal situation, with good area design, common sense tells the player where they should be expecting traps.

    Let's take the example of the Candlekeep Catacombs. First off, before you even enter the dungeon, Tethtoril tells you to only stick to the main path and leave the crypts and side passages alone. As long as you follow his advice and stick to the areas that have been used for passing through, you will encounter very few traps. If you do decide to check the side passages, though, you can expect some neat treasures, as well as more trouble. Up to and including traps. That's what good area design does.

    I'm not saying every IE game has good dungeons, because some of them use traps and encounters willy-nilly, with no consideration to the player's knowledge and expectations. The ideal solution, however, isn't to hack away at the trap detection mechanics, but to improve area design.

    As for feeding character's manually, which games actually take it to the extent that IE games do with trap detecting? In a roguelike I played, eating is as simple as going to the inventory screen, then double clicking on a piece of food. And my character isn't hungry for a considerably long time.

    If that roguelike made hunger tedious the same way IE games made traps tedious, my character would be hungry again after 1-2 steps.

    So that isn't even remotely close to a constant 6 second interruption where I'm doing nothing but stare at the screen.

    Feeding is not quite comparable that way, because it's constant and uses resources, e.g. you have to find food in order to feed. In the IE games, you only really need to expect traps in dungeons (and spider-infested areas), so the nuisance of it is not constant during the game, you will know when to expect it. Also, trap detection uses no resources, you can do as much of it as you like, at any time.

    So again tell me of a game where players have to stop playing for a buttload of intervals that practically occur right after the other.

    You don't really have to detect traps, as long as you have a tank and a healer, you can pretty much deal with any trap the brute-force way without too much trouble.

    Oh and deal with the consequences of your actions? I find this hilarious. Do you somehow forget that this game allows reloading?

    Again, you don't have to reload. It's up to you. You can reload, or you can, yes, deal with the consequences of your actions.

    Button mashing is not something you ever need to do in any of the IE games.
    Surprise, you don't need to button mash in Final Fantasy games either except for specific mini games/limit breaks

    I've never played any of the FF games, nor did I mean to imply that they involved button-mashing.

    But if we're talking about the plot of BG1, that's about as far from a spoonfed story as you can get.
    Oh wow BG2's plot isn't spoonfed? Why? Because sidequests? Later Final Fantasy games have sidequests. Because there's a portion of the game where the player is in some pseudo open world bit? Figuring out where to go in that particular part of the game is pretty easy. And really just amounts of a bunch of side quests.

    So really don't pretend BG2 this masterpiece in how it delivers its story. It's pretty straightforward. Or that FF games are all about button mashing because they aren't.

    You might want to reread that line that you quoted from me. :wink:

    Oh and if you don't think people view certain aspects of Skyrim's gameplay to be tedious, you don't have a good grasp of the game's community then. Maxing skills in Skyrim is tedious, but here's the thing, you don't need to max skills in Skyrim, and the alternative to not dealing with the tedious aspects of Skyrim doesn't involve a situation where you're more likely to get a game over.

    People view a lot of things a lot of different ways, and a lot of people thinking something doesn't make it true. Besides, I never said mining or training skills in Skyrim wasn't tedious, because I think it is. But then again, trap detection in IE dungeons serves to add tension, while mining in Skyrim doesn't. You were asking for examples of modern games that make you wait repeatedly, and I simply provided them.

    If you think the choice between mining in Skyrim and not mining is the same as the "choice" between trap detecting or just running through traps, you're just plain wrong.

    I disagree. You can deal with triggering traps in IE games just as easily as you can deal with not mining out the various ore veins you encounter in Skyrim. You obviously do not want to trigger traps with your whole party, and you might want to buff your tank before running through a corridor that might be laid out with traps, but as long as you employ some amount of strategy, triggering traps is a perfectly viable alternative to trap detection.

    dunbarGrumlolien
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    Sure if IE games had actual good area design with regards to traps in every area a 6 second stop in gameplay is tolerable. Except they don't. So players will have to stare at the screen repeatedly for 6 secomds because areas don't telegraph the traps properly.

    If the areas in Adventure Y solve the trap problem like this then sure, but IE games do a horrible job at this in general and force the player to turn on trap detection for the entire dungeon unless they metagame.

    As for spell protection, in IWD spell protection comes slow. So tanks can still die from traps. So no that still isn't a viable option. Early on thieves need to detect traps or your tank dies.

    As for what's comparable or not I'm talking about any game mechanic that forces the player to stop playing the game for a couple of seconds repeatedly. It doesn't matter how the mechanic works, all that matters is that the player stops playing over and over again.

    So the only reason the food mechanic is incomparable isn't that nonsense about resources, it's because I don't need to stop playing to feed my character after every 2 steps or so. I feed my character once, then continue playing for a substantial amount of time. In an IE game I stop to detect traps, then move forward a bit and stop to detect traps again.

    Oh and you propose a solution where one character can just walk normally and trigger traps without even getting harmed by them. So what exactly is this resistance to an idea that a thief can jsut walk normally and detect traps his trap skill allows him to instantly. It's the pretty much the same thing, the only difference is that instead of spell slots a player expends a class slot on a Thief class.

    Tension is already added by the traps themselves. All the repeated 6 seconds of screen staring does is just massively slow the game down. Especially after the 20th time in a dungeon that results in no traps making the player realize they just wasted another 6 seconds staring at the screen for nothing and the tedium they''ll have to endure for the next 20 times because there might be a trap somewhere that might kill off a party member.

    Tension wears off. So sure it might be tense the first time. But the hundreth time? It won't be.

    As for reloading the mere fact that it's at least a choice means that players living with their decision is just a choice.

    Oh and BG 1's plot is straightfoward. The game always tells you where to go. The other areas are the equivalent of side quests. So what exactly does BG not spoonfeed the player that any linear RPG with sidequests does?

  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 1,067
    You can mod the game to allow you to manually sweep the area with the Thieving mouse cursor to look for traps. Flagging all traps as "detected" will have them remain invisible until you hover over them with the Thieving mouse-cursor, but you can disarm them immediately. They will still be detected by find traps and trigger as normal if you don't disarm them.

    It's not perfect, but it would at least offer a more direct and immediate approach, or "active" searching, while the detect traps mode would remain "passive" searching. You could easily find out "is THIS trapped?", but could miss a generic "are there traps (anywhere)?"

    Adul
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517
    edited April 2015
    Step right up, everyone! Watch the two-person forum thread unfold! :smiley:

    Sure if IE games had actual good area design with regards to traps in every area a 6 second stop in gameplay is tolerable. Except they don't. So players will have to stare at the screen repeatedly for 6 secomds because areas don't telegraph the traps properly.

    If the areas in Adventure Y solve the trap problem like this then sure, but IE games do a horrible job at this in general and force the player to turn on trap detection for the entire dungeon unless they metagame.

    As for spell protection, in IWD spell protection comes slow. So tanks can still die from traps. So no that still isn't a viable option. Early on thieves need to detect traps or your tank dies.

    Well, I like the great IE games, I don't much care about the less-than-great ones. *cough* IWD *cough* But that's just my preference, of course.

    In my defense, we started this discussion talking about the next game in the Baldur's Gate saga, so I think the ideal solution is still for the developers to make sure that their area design works well with the current trap mechanics.

    As for what's comparable or not I'm talking about any game mechanic that forces the player to stop playing the game for a couple of seconds repeatedly. It doesn't matter how the mechanic works, all that matters is that the player stops playing over and over again.

    So the only reason the food mechanic is incomparable isn't that nonsense about resources, it's because I don't need to stop playing to feed my character after every 2 steps or so. I feed my character once, then continue playing for a substantial amount of time. In an IE game I stop to detect traps, then move forward a bit and stop to detect traps again.

    But you're still trying to compare them, even though you've just acknowledged it's a different kind of mechanic altogether. You don't even need to wait any amount of time to eat, in most games, you just open up the inventory, use the item, and close the inventory. Or just use a quick key, if the game in question allows for that.

    On a side note, most people do not eat every couple of seconds. It doesn't sound like a very health diet, anyway. Meanwhile, searching an area for traps is an activity that involves a very meticulous fine-combing of an area.

    And, again, there's no tension involved in eating.

    Oh and you propose a solution where one character can just walk normally and trigger traps without even getting harmed by them. So what exactly is this resistance to an idea that a thief can jsut walk normally and detect traps his trap skill allows him to instantly. It's the pretty much the same thing, the only difference is that instead of spell slots a player expends a class slot on a Thief class.

    Tension is already added by the traps themselves. All the repeated 6 seconds of screen staring does is just massively slow the game down. Especially after the 20th time in a dungeon that results in no traps making the player realize they just wasted another 6 seconds staring at the screen for nothing and the tedium they''ll have to endure for the next 20 times because there might be a trap somewhere that might kill off a party member.

    But that's the thing, even if you trigger the traps, you're still required to put in some effort. You'll need to micromanage your party movement, buff yourself, or heal and rest a lot. You're not going to get away with it unhurt, at least not all of the time. Some traps will turn you to stone, so unless you make sure to cast Protection from Petrification on your tripper every single time, you might still lose them. And unless you have 100% fire, lightning, piercing, etc. resistances, you'll still take damage. So there's still tension there.

    Whereas, if your thief auto-detects every single trap as long as they're in detecting mode and positioned relatively close to the front-line of your party, the tension is completely lost.

    Tension wears off. So sure it might be tense the first time. But the hundreth time? It won't be.

    Well, that's where I would curve the discussion back to my earlier argument about good area design. If you use traps willy-nilly, of course it loses the tension factor.

    As for reloading the mere fact that it's at least a choice means that players living with their decision is just a choice.

    Yes, it's a choice. No disagreement there. That pretty much applies to every single situation as long as reloading is an option.

    Oh and BG 1's plot is straightfoward.

    image

    Fudge, now I have to do this.

    The game always tells you where to go.

    Nope. Usually, it hints at it. Would you prefer to wander around aimlessly over an open world until you trip over the next plot point by accident?

    And even though BG1 nudges you towards where you need to go (by necessity), it still does it subtly enough where you might miss it if you're not paying enough attention. Or disregard it deliberately.

    After Gorion dies, for example, you might remember that he had advised you to seek out Khalid and Jaheira (or, more precisely, "Jahiera" :lol:). But he never told you to help them with their mission. Still, the game brings up the iron shortage and the Nashkel Mines enough times that sooner or later you will want to check that out. That's subtle and brilliant.

    Pretty much the same thing applies to the bandit and Baldur's Gate investigations.

    So what exactly does BG not spoonfeed the player that any linear RPG with sidequests does?

    Glad you asked. The answer is: story details. The game might give you a few pushes in the right direction, but you can always find out more about what you're doing, what your adversaries are doing, and why they're doing it by asking around, reading documents, and exploring the world.

    Hell, if you decide to kill the leaders of the Iron Throne in Candlekeep before going further up the stairs to Gorion's room and reading the letter that he had left you, you might miss the single most important detail in the entire story, namely, that you're Bhaal's kid. And you probably won't find out until you're facing off against Sarevok.

    And if you wish to understand the full extent of the connections and agendas laid out between Rieltar Anchev, Sarevok, the Iron Throne's local leaders, the Iron Thone's foreign leaders, Davaeorn, Sarevok's cohorts, the Chill, the Black Talons, the Harpers, the Zhentarim, the Dukes, Scar, the Flaming Fist, the Shadow Thieves, Mulahey and his kobolds, Tazok, Winski Perorate, Tamoko, Angelo Dosan, the BG gentry, Amn, the assassins who are after you, the doppelgangers, Tranzig, etc. over the course of the game, you better pay damn well attention, or play the game many times.

    Personally, I used to notice new minor plot details even after 20+ playthroughs over more than a decade spent worshiping this game.

    So, in conclusion, I disagree with the notion that BG1 spoonfeeds its story. :tongue:

    Post edited by Adul on
    semiticgodKilivitz
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 14,570
    It's interesting to read your argument here.

    I only pray you don't forget about the site rules when you start discussing what "you did" or "you didn't do".

  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517
    @bengoshi Sorry, that was for comedic effect. If it's not OK, please feel free to remove it.

  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited April 2015
    And a Thief takes up a class slot so really players are giving up something for trap detection either way.

    It's not hard to load up every protection spell a party has access to. The only issue is if the party does not have access to that protection spell and now we're back to spending 6 seconds staring at the screen detecting traps.

    You again fail to realize why trap detection is flawed. It repetively forces the player to stop playing the game and that it's practically necessary. Nothing else about it is wrong. So it doesn't matter if hunger or whatever has different mechanics, what matters is that hunger in roguelikes do not make me stop playing the game repeatedly in a short amount of time. Or that not maxing out every skill in Skyrim or even bothering with mining is going to give me a game over.

    Also BG still has traps in areas that the player is expected to pass through with no indication they're there. And without metagame knowledge this translates to any area in a dungeon or even outside (Cloakwood has traps) can potentially be trapped.

    So no, BG is just as bad as IWD. Both games tell the player that any dungeon area they'll most likely pass through (even if they try to do as little as necessary) might be trapped. It doesn't matter which game actually has more traps that are like this because that's already metagame knowledge.

    And nearly every Final Fantasy has dozens of NPCs to talk to to "flesh out" the story. Even the first FFhas NPCs that spout blah blah lore stuff. Dragon Quest has blah blah lore NPCs and that game preceded Final Fantasy and is so incredibly simple. So even the simplest, earliest JRPG, short of some ultra niche JRPG, already does the optional extra lore bit.

    What again does Baldur's Gate do that practically every RPG doesn't as far as spoonfeeding the story goes?

    Oh and because BG has lots of blah blah lore stuff, this means that the game urges players who want to find out the whole story to fully explore areas. Which leads to now having to deal with traps in optional areas or even optional branches in a main dungeon.

  • reedmilfamreedmilfam Member Posts: 2,808
    The only change I would like to see regarding traps is the ability to Find Traps while Hidden. It seems silly, to me, that these are mutually exclusive.

    Adul
  • AdulAdul Member Posts: 1,517
    edited April 2015

    *snip*

    Going over your post I get a strange feeling of deja vu, like as if we were going over the very same arguments over and over again with no grounds gained on either side. So I think I'll bow out for now, at least until the discussion changes to a topic that hasn't yet been stomped into the ground so completely.

    On the bright side, if you'd like to see a response to your latest post, feel free to read any of my last 3 replies. :lol:

    joluvlolien
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,068
    @Zyzzogeton

    I get your arguement. You do not have to make it in every single post you make.

    You also have to respect other peoples play styles and realize that the issue you are having is not an issue for everyone, and something you may find tedious, others may enjoy and it gives the game an added dimension. That is thier opinion and they are entitled to it, much like how you are entitled to yours.

    What I haven't seen, is how you would like the find traps mechanic work so that reflects your preferred playstyle.

    Do you want it to ping more often? Do you want a wider range? Do you want a hotkey button that lights up any traps on screen or in character view when pushed?

    How would you alter it to fit your gaming style?

    joluvAduldunbar
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    What response? You still fail to give an example of a game that forces players to stop playing for 6 seconds over and over. You still haven't addressed the issue thay IE games put traps that aren't properly telegraphed in a player's path. You still haven't given an example of how BG doesn't spoonfeed the story as opposed to other RPGs which also feature optional lore.

    It doesn't matter to me how it changes. What I do not want is a game telling me I have to stop playing for 6 seconds again and again unless I metagame or save reload for traps.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 5,068
    Actually. You were given countless, where you replied with a 'ya that doesn't really matter what matters is me waiting 6 seconds'

    Everyone gets that.

    How would you personally fix it. If you were To design the mechanics of finding traps, how would it work in IE games?

    Adul
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